In this episode of the Revitalize My Church Podcast, Bart Blair sits down with Larry Davis, author of "Grieving the Loss of the Church You Love" and Associational Missionary for the Eastern Baptist Association. Larry has personally led three church revitalizations and has assisted or consulted with more than 110 churches. His perspective on revitalization is unlike anything most pastors have read or heard.

Most books on church revitalization assume every church should live. Larry challenges that assumption directly. Drawing from Scripture, the Kubler-Ross stages of grief, and more than two decades of hands-on revitalization work, Larry makes the case that a congregation cannot embrace something new until it has genuinely grieved what was. That single principle changes everything about how a pastor should approach a struggling church.

WHAT YOU WILL LEARN IN THIS EPISODE

Why the local church has a natural life cycle, and what Scripture says about it
How the five stages of grief (denial, bargaining, anger, depression, and acceptance) show up in a declining congregation
Why trying to lead change before a church is ready almost always backfires
How Larry navigated fierce resistance at Grace Seaford Church, including angry members at Wednesday night suppers
What the "meeting before the meeting" is and why it is never optional
How cascading communication works and why skipping the middle ring is one of the costliest mistakes in revitalization
What resurrection actually looks like for a dying church, and why it is different for every congregation
How to use a simple EKG framework to honestly assess the health of your church
Why reaching out for help early dramatically increases a church's chances of genuine renewal

THE FIVE STAGES OF GRIEF IN A LOCAL CHURCH

Denial: The church refuses to admit there is a problem. Bargaining: The church tries to fix itself without actually changing. New sign letters. A younger pastor. A new program. Anger: Blame gets directed at the pastor, the leadership, or the community around the church. Depression: The congregation begins to realize the decline is real. Larry explains the important difference between secondary depression and preparatory depression. Acceptance: The congregation finally becomes open to whatever God wants to do next. This is the threshold of resurrection.

ABOUT LARRY DAVIS

Larry Davis spent nine years as an aerospace engineer before answering the call to full-time ministry in 2003. Over 26 years of vocational ministry, he has personally led three church revitalizations, co-planted Grace Mardela Church, and has assisted or consulted with more than 110 churches. He currently serves as Senior Pastor of Grace Seaford Church in Seaford, Delaware, and as Associational Missionary for the Eastern Baptist Association.

His book "Grieving the Loss of the Church You Love" is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

Website: https://www.pastorlarrydavis.com Speaking and consulting inquiries: pastor@graceseaford.org

BOOKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED

Grieving the Loss of the Church You Love by Larry Davis: https://www.amazon.com/Grieving-Loss-Church-You-Love/dp/1597557811
Autopsy of a Deceased Church by Thom Rainer
Transforming the Rural Church in America by Shannon O'Dell
Our Iceberg Is Melting by John Kotter
On Death and Dying by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross

ABOUT REVITALIZE MY CHURCH

The Revitalize My Church Podcast is hosted by Bart Blair, Director of Church Revitalization at Assist Church Expansion. New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of every month. The podcast exists to help pastors of smaller and struggling churches navigate revitalization with practical, biblically grounded guidance.

Subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Website: https://revitalizemy.church Full show notes for this episode:

TLDR: Key Takeaways

1. The Oikos Principle works everywhere: 95% of people come to faith through relationships with the 8-15 people in their "front row" - their coworkers, neighbors, close friends, and family members who watch how they live.

2. Church obesity kills mission focus: Most churches are programmatically obese, offering so many "good things" that the Great Commission gets crowded out. The average church attender has only 5 hours per week to give.

3. Outreach never happens naturally: Without intentionality, nurture always wins over evangelism. Churches must deliberately elevate the Great Commission first and often, or it will never take root.

4. Start with a simple strategy: Make a list of your 8-15 people, pray daily, invest in relationships intentionally, then invite them into environments where faith conversations happen naturally.

Episode Summary

Are you struggling to keep your church focused on reaching lost people? Do you feel like your congregation is more interested in adding new ministries than making new disciples? You're not alone.

In this episode of Revitalize My Church, Bart sits down with Tom Mercer, author of 8 to 15: The World Is Smaller Than You Think and pastor of High Desert Church for 38 years, to discuss why most churches have lost focus on the only thing Jesus commanded us to do between His advents - make disciples.

Why Small Churches Struggle with Mission Focus

Tom shares candidly about the challenge every pastor faces: "It's not that local churches don't do good things, but we do so many good things that the only great thing Jesus asked of us doesn't have any room to flourish."

This insight is particularly crucial for small church pastors who are constantly pressured to add more programs, more ministries, and more activities to compete with larger churches in their community.

What Is the Oikos Principle and How Does It Work in Church Revitalization?

The word "oikos" is a Greek term meaning "house" or "household" that appears throughout the New Testament. But Tom explains it means more than just a physical dwelling - it describes your relational world.

The Oikos principle teaches that every person has 8-15 people in the "front row seats" of their life - people who:

• Watch how you live

• Listen to what you say

• Include coworkers, neighbors, close friends, classmates, and family members

• Are supernaturally and strategically placed in your life by God

The data is undeniable: Tom has asked hundreds of thousands of Christians across five continents, multiple denominations, and diverse cultures one question: "Was the primary reason you gave your heart to Christ because of someone in your oikos?"

The answer? Virtually every hand in the room goes up, every time.

How to Implement the 8 to 15 Strategy in Your Church

Tom shares the practical five-step strategy High Desert Church used to keep thousands of people focused on the Great Commission:

Step 1: Make a List

Help your congregation identify by name the 8-15 people in their front row. "It's only a dream until you write it down, then it becomes a goal," Tom explains, quoting NFL Hall of Famer Emmett Smith.

Step 2: Pray Daily

Encourage consistent prayer for these specific people by name. Most believers never take this step.

Step 3: Invest in Relationships

Be intentional about spending time with and serving these people. This is where most invitation strategies fail - people won't invite those they haven't invested in.

Step 4: Extend Invitations

Create environments where faith conversations can happen naturally - church services, dinner at home, coffee shops, or small group gatherings.

Step 5: Minimize Distractions

This is the controversial part: remove programs and activities that don't directly support your congregation's mission to their 8-15.

Why Church Programs Are Killing Your Evangelism Efforts

One of the most convicting moments in this conversation comes when Tom shares High Desert Church's "five-hour strategy."

After surveying their congregation, they discovered people could only give five hours per week to church activities. So they asked: "What do we do with only five hours?"

Their answer:

• 90 minutes: A meaningful weekend worship service

• 2 hours: Small groups for conversation and community

• 90 minutes: Opportunities to express spiritual gifts at church or in the community

That's it. Everything else was eliminated or offered only as short-term seminars.

The result? A church of 120 grew to thousands across four campuses over 38 years, with a laser focus on equipping every member to reach their oikos.

How to Stop Nurture from Winning Over Outreach in Your Church

Tom references his friend Dave Browning's insight: "Without intentionality, nurture always wins."

This explains why 76% of evangelical church-attending Christians can't even articulate what the Great Commission is (according to 2024 Barna research). Churches teach programs, not mission.

The solution? Elevate outreach first and foremost without compromising discipleship.

Tom shares a controversial practice: "When someone comes to faith, most pastors say, 'You need to get in a Bible study.' My advice would be to never, ever, ever do that."

Instead, paint the target first - help new believers understand their mission is to reach their 8-15 people. Then discipleship has context and purpose.

Why the Great Commission Should Be Called the Great Commandment

Bart makes a crucial point in this conversation: "We've labeled it the Great Commission, and commission sounds too much like suggestion. It should be another Great Commandment."

Jesus didn't say, "Here's a great idea if you have time." He said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore GO" (Matthew 28:18-19).

This is a directive from the Commander-in-Chief, not a suggestion from a consultant.

Practical First Steps for Pastors Who Want to Implement Oikos Principles

If you're ready to refocus your church on the Great Commission using the oikos principle, Tom recommends:

1. Gather your decision-makers - staff team and key volunteers

2. Read together - Either 8 to 15 or Tom's follow-up book Not My Church (written specifically for pastors)

3. Have honest conversations - People in ministry are smarter than they think; let them wrestle with how to apply this in your specific context

4. Reach out for help - Tom offers free Zoom consultations with pastors at OikosMovement.com

Why This Strategy Works for Small Churches with Limited Resources

This approach is perfect for small church revitalization because:

• It doesn't require a big budget - You're empowering relationships, not funding programs

• It doesn't require more staff - Every member becomes a missionary to their oikos

• It actually simplifies ministry - You can cut programs that distract from the mission

• It's scalable - Whether you have 20 people or 2,000, everyone has 8-15 people in their front row

As Tom reminds us: "The average church is led by averagely gifted leaders." But the oikos principle doesn't require exceptional gifts - just faithfulness to focus on what Jesus actually asked us to do.

How to Measure Kingdom Growth vs. Transfer Growth

One of the most refreshing aspects of Tom's perspective is his view on measuring growth: "It's above my pay grade to cause growth, so it's kind of silly for me to take credit for it by measuring it."

Instead, Tom focuses on faithfulness to the mission, not numerical outcomes.

Bart reinforces this with the concept of lead measures vs. lag measures:

• Lead measures - Things you can control (teaching the oikos principle, equipping people for relationships, removing program distractions)

• Lag measures - Things you can't control (attendance numbers, baptisms, conversions)

Focus on leading your people to engage their oikos faithfully. Let God handle the growth.

What to Do When People Ask for More Programs and Ministries

Every small church pastor faces this pressure: "We need a women's ministry. We need more youth programs. We need this and that ministry."

Tom's response? Ask "Why?"

"If this is something Jesus asked of us, then of course we're obligated to pursue it. But there are so many things that are so distracting."

Before adding any program, ask: Does this help our people reach their 8-15, or does it distract from that mission?

The Sociological Problem, Not Just Theological

Bart shares a crucial insight: Most Americans believe people who resist the gospel have theological problems. In reality, their resistance is mostly sociological.

People resist God, scripture, and the gospel primarily because their entire oikos - the 8-15 people in their front row - also resist these things.

The solution? Change their sociological circle. Surround them with people who love Jesus, follow scripture, and live out the gospel. Their eyes open to new possibilities when their community changes.

This is why the oikos principle is so powerful - you're not just sharing information, you're inviting people into a new community.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Book: 8 to 15: The World Is Smaller Than You Think by Tom Mercer

• Book: Not My Church by Tom Mercer (specifically for pastors)

• Website: OikosMovement.com - Free resources and consultation opportunities

• Contact: Tom@OikosMovement.com

Connect with Tom Mercer

Tom Mercer served as lead pastor of High Desert Church in Southern California for 38 years, growing the church from 120 attenders to thousands across four campuses. He now leads The Oikos Movement, a nonprofit dedicated to equipping every believer in every nation to reach their oikos with the gospel. Tom regularly consults with pastors worldwide via Zoom and speaks at churches and conferences about the oikos principle.

Questions for Reflection and Discussion

1. Can you name the 8-15 people in your oikos right now? Have you written their names down?

2. What programs or activities in your church might be "good things" that are crowding out the "great thing" Jesus commanded?

3. If your congregation only has five hours per week to give, what would you prioritize?

4. What percentage of your church members could accurately explain the Great Commission?

5. Does your church naturally gravitate toward nurture or outreach? What would it take to be more intentional about evangelism?

Share This Episode

If this conversation encouraged you or challenged your thinking about your church's future, share it with:

• Your church leadership team or board

• Your pastor or denomination leader

• Church planter networks in your area

• Other pastors navigating similar challenges

Subscribe & Stay Updated

New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of every month. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or on YouTube to get notified when new conversations about church leadership, revitalization, and growth drop in your feed.

Hosts: Bart Blair (Director of Church Revitalization, Assist Church Expansion) & Nathan Bryant (Executive Director, Assist)

TLDR: Key Takeaways

1. Check your own heart first - Before addressing conflict, examine your motivations, attitudes, and potential contributions to the problem (Matthew 7:3-5)

2. Deal openly, not publicly - Address conflict transparently with appropriate parties in proper settings, never air dirty laundry from the pulpit (Proverbs 27:5-6)

3. Seek win-win solutions - Aim for outcomes that strengthen relationships and unity, not just "winning" the argument (Philippians 2:3-4)

4. Bring in outside help early - Don't wait until conflict becomes unredeemable; involve trusted third-party mediators from your network

5. Not every conflict ends in win-win - Sometimes the healthiest resolution is helping someone find a better-fit church where they can thrive

6. 94% of pastors report positive outcomes - When handled properly, conflict leads to better relationships, clarity, and stronger unity

Managing Conflict in Church Revitalization: 6 Essential Keys (Part 2)

TLDR: Key Takeaways

1. Check your own heart first - Before addressing conflict, examine your motivations, attitudes, and potential contributions to the problem (Matthew 7:3-5)

2. Deal openly, not publicly - Address conflict transparently with appropriate parties in proper settings, never air dirty laundry from the pulpit (Proverbs 27:5-6)

3. Seek win-win solutions - Aim for outcomes that strengthen relationships and unity, not just "winning" the argument (Philippians 2:3-4)

4. Bring in outside help early - Don't wait until conflict becomes unredeemable; involve trusted third-party mediators from your network

5. Not every conflict ends in win-win - Sometimes the healthiest resolution is helping someone find a better-fit church where they can thrive

6. 94% of pastors report positive outcomes - When handled properly, conflict leads to better relationships, clarity, and stronger unity

How Do You Check Your Heart Before Addressing Church Conflict?

In part two of this essential series on managing conflict during church revitalization, Bart Blair and Nathan Bryant tackle the final three keys that every pastor needs to successfully navigate congregational disputes and maintain unity.

Why Do Leaders Need to Examine Themselves First?

Scripture Foundation: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" - Matthew 7:3-5

Before entering any conflict situation, church leaders must:

Stop making assumptions - We often walk into conflict having already decided what the other person thinks, why they're upset, and what their motivations are - usually all negative assumptions

Check your attitude - Are you viewing this as a headache to manage or an opportunity to build better unity?

Believe the best - 1 Corinthians 13 reminds us that love "believes all things" - enter the room assuming the best about the other person

Examine your role - Have you communicated clearly? Made promises you didn't keep? Created unrealistic expectations? You may have contributed to the conflict without realizing it

What Does It Mean That Conflict Is Relational?

Even when conflict appears to be about decisions, programs, or practical matters, it almost always becomes relational. People take things personally - sometimes appropriately, sometimes not. As a leader, you need the humility to distinguish between:

• Conflict actually directed at you personally

• People reacting to situations, changes, or circumstances

• Personality-driven responses you don't fully understand

Why Is It Hard for Congregation Members to Approach Their Pastor?

For most people (not all), approaching the pastor about a problem requires significant emotional and social courage. By the time they come to you, the issue has usually reached a significant level of distress for them personally.

This means they may have already:

• Talked to others about the problem (gossip)

• Let the issue fester and grow

• Acted out or caused problems with other members

• Built up significant emotional charge around the issue

Leaders need empathy for how difficult it is for average congregation members to voice concerns to their pastor. Stop being overly sensitive and recognize this as an opportunity for better connection.

What Did Jesus Say About Making Things Right?

In Matthew 5:23-24, Jesus gives a stunning command: If you're bringing a gift to the altar and you remember that someone has something against you (not that you have something against them), leave your gift and go make it right first.

This means:

• God prioritizes reconciliation over worship

• If someone has a problem with you, it's your responsibility to pursue them

• Unity in the body matters more than religious activity

• Humble leaders take initiative to resolve conflict, even when they're not sure they're at fault

Key #5: Deal Openly (Not Publicly)

Scripture Foundation: "Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses." - Proverbs 27:5-6

What Does "Deal Openly" Actually Mean in Church Conflict?

Dealing openly with conflict means:

• Not hiding or pretending problems don't exist

• Addressing issues directly with appropriate parties

• Creating frameworks where healthy disagreement is normal

• Being transparent within proper boundaries

• Choosing the right context for difficult conversations

What Does "Deal Openly" NOT Mean?

Many pastors confuse openness with public disclosure. Dealing openly does NOT mean:

• Airing dirty laundry from the pulpit - This is actually disqualifying behavior for church leaders

• Discussing private matters publicly - Protect people's dignity and privacy

• Having serious conversations in front of others - If someone confronts you in the lobby with everyone watching, lovingly redirect: "I can see you're distressed. Let's step into an office" or "Let's schedule a time tonight or tomorrow to talk properly"

• Broadcasting every detail to the entire congregation

How Do You Protect People While Being Open About Conflict?

Think about your marriage: You and your spouse don't have every conversation in front of your kids or in-laws. Some discussions happen privately between the two of you. The same principle applies in church:

• Respect context - Different issues require different levels of disclosure

• Protect dignity - Give people honor even when they're wrong

• Choose appropriate venues - Board meetings, private offices, scheduled appointments

• Maintain confidentiality - Don't gossip about people's struggles

Why Is Passive-Aggressive Behavior So Destructive in Churches?

Most people are passive-aggressive, which creates these toxic patterns:

The Surface Level:

• Smiling and saying "everything's fine" while harboring resentment

• Attending meetings but never voicing real concerns

• Agreeing with decisions but complaining afterward

• Pretending to be okay while talking to others about problems

The Underground Level:

• Board members who wait until after decisions are made to express disagreement

• People who never bring concerns to leaders but spread them through gossip networks

• Congregation members who build entire narratives in their minds without ever seeking clarification

• Leaders who remain oblivious to problems until they explode into major conflict

The Solution: As leaders, model openness and directness yourself. When you have concerns, address them promptly in appropriate settings. Teach your congregation the "go up, not out" principle - take issues to the person involved or to leadership, not to the gossip network.

What Is the "Go Up, Not Out" Principle?

This simple phrase (taught by Pastor Thornley) helps congregation members understand Matthew 18 conflict resolution:

• "Go UP" = Take your concern directly to the person involved, or if that doesn't resolve it, to church leadership

• "Go OUT" = Spreading the issue to friends, family, uninvolved parties, creating a gossip network

When churches adopt this principle, it prevents conflict from metastasizing throughout the congregation and creating unnecessary division.

Key #6: Seek Win-Win Solutions (When Possible)

Scripture Foundation: "Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." - Philippians 2:3-4

What Is the Right Goal When Resolving Church Conflict?

Your goal isn't just to "be done" with the conflict. The goal is to emerge with:

• Better relationships moving forward

• Improved communication and understanding

• Stronger unity than before

• Clarity on expectations and values

• A sense that everyone was heard and respected

This means moving beyond "I'm right, you're wrong" thinking to "How can we both honor Jesus and move forward better together?"

How Do You Create Win-Win Solutions in Church Conflict?

Assume the best about people's intentions

• What they want isn't necessarily bad or negative

• Their concerns may be valid even if their approach is wrong

• Look for the legitimate need or value underneath their complaint

Focus on the future, not just the past

• Yes, address what happened

• Yes, acknowledge hurt or mistakes

• But emphasize: "How do we go forward better from here?"

Even when someone is clearly wrong:

• Don't just extract an apology and move on

• Help them understand the path to restoration

• Work together on how to prevent it from happening again

• Focus on rebuilding trust and relationship

Ask the right questions:

• What are our shared goals underneath this disagreement?

• What do we both truly value?

• Are there creative alternatives we haven't considered?

• How can we honor the concern while moving the mission forward?

When Is a Win-Win Solution Not Possible?

Reality check: Not every conflict can end in win-win. Sometimes the healthiest resolution is separation.

This happens when:

• Someone demands something contrary to the church's mission, direction, or values

• You're convicted the Lord is saying "go right" but they're insisting you must "go left"

• The person refuses to compromise on non-essential matters

• They're dug in and unwilling to consider alternatives

• Fundamental philosophical differences can't be bridged

How Do You Handle Conflict That Leads to Someone Leaving the Church?

Real-world example: A church recently removed pews and installed chairs to create flexible space. One member wrote a two-page letter opposing the decision. The pastor's approach:

• Listened with genuine care to understand the real concern (memorial pews ending up in a dumpster)

• Found a creative solution (another church wanted the pews)

• Maintained gracious, loving posture throughout

• Avoided making it personal - kept focus on mission and values

• Gave time for the person to process and ultimately come to acceptance

When someone truly can't stay: Even in the worst-case scenario, you can maintain dignity and love:

"I can see you love Jesus and want to see His kingdom flourish. You're seeing these things differently than we see them here, and that's unfortunate. It doesn't mean you're evil or I'm evil - we just have different convictions. That church down the street actually aligns with your philosophy on this. I want you to thrive in serving Jesus with your gifts. We'd love to have you here, but I don't want you to be frustrated. Maybe God has a better fit for you there."

This approach:

• Affirms their faith and good intentions

• Acknowledges the genuine disagreement

• Removes personal animosity

• Protects them from ongoing frustration

• Helps them find a place to flourish

• Maintains relationship (you'll see them at Walmart next week!)

What About Church Discipline for Unrepentant Sin?

In rare cases involving clear sin and unrepentance, church discipline becomes necessary. This requires:

• Other elders involved from the beginning

• Following a biblical process (Matthew 18)

• Multiple attempts at restoration

• Clear communication at each step

• Exercising discipline only after exhausting other options

This is a separate conversation from typical conflict management, but it represents the most serious end of the conflict spectrum.

How Often Does Conflict Actually Lead to Positive Outcomes?

According to Christianity Today research, 94% of pastors report positive outcomes when conflict is handled properly, including:

• Greater wisdom and maturity

• Better-defined vision

• Improved communication

• Stronger relationships

• Church purification

• Growth in unity

The key is viewing conflict as an opportunity rather than a threat. 95% of the time (okay, 94%), conflict is leading you to a better place together because you're:

• Clarifying what was unclear

• Resolving what was unresolved

• Addressing what was hidden

• Strengthening what was weak

When Should You Bring in Outside Help for Church Conflict?

Critical principle: Bring in third-party help sooner rather than later. Don't wait until conflict becomes unredeemable.

Who Should You Call for Help?

First option - Your network:

• District superintendents or overseers

• Denominational leaders you trust and respect

• Other pastors in your fellowship who can mediate

• Church networks or associations you're part of

Second option - Professional mediators:

• Organizations like Assist Church Expansion

• Christian conflict resolution ministries

• Trained church consultants

Why Is Early Intervention Critical?

If conflict goes on too long without resolution:

• Positions become entrenched

• Emotions escalate beyond reason

• Narratives solidify in people's minds

• Gossip networks spread misinformation

• The situation becomes unredeemable

As a leader or elder, know your options BEFORE crisis:

• Where can you appeal if you have conflict with the lead pastor?

• Where can the lead pastor appeal if conflict arises with elders?

• Who are the trusted third parties in your network?

• What resources exist for mediation?

What Is the Pastor's Primary Responsibility in Conflict?

God has called church leaders to protect the unity of the body of Christ. There's nothing God wants more than His people dwelling together in unity.

This means:

• Taking responsibility for maintaining unity (not assuming someone else will handle it)

• Viewing conflict management as a core leadership function, not an interruption

• Pursuing resolution actively rather than passively hoping it goes away

• Loving people well through difficult conversations

• Keeping the mission of God central while treating people with grace

Summary: The 6 Keys to Managing Conflict in Church Revitalization

From Part 1:

1. Face Reality - Conflict Will Come (James 1:2-4) - Normalize it, expect it, prepare for it

2. Move Toward It Quickly (But Wisely) (Ephesians 4:26-27) - The 48-72 hour rule; pray, process, act

3. Go Face-to-Face (Matthew 18:15-16) - Never use text/email; bring a witness when needed

From Part 2: 4. Check Your Own Heart First (Matthew 7:3-5) - Examine your motives, attitudes, and contributions before confronting 5. Deal Openly (Not Publicly) (Proverbs 27:5-6) - Be transparent with appropriate parties in proper settings 6. Seek Win-Win Solutions (Philippians 2:3-4) - Aim for better relationships and unity, not just "winning"

What Should You Do Right Now?

Immediate action steps:

• Identify one conflict you're currently avoiding - schedule a meeting within 72 hours

• Establish a covenant with your leadership team about how you'll handle conflict

• Write down who you can call for outside help before you need them

• Examine your heart: Are you viewing conflict as threat or opportunity?

• Teach your congregation the "go up, not out" principle

Remember: Unresolved conflict creates more conflict. The unity of the body matters more to God than your comfort, your preferences, or even your worship. Leave your gift at the altar and go make it right.

Coming Next: Managing Resistance in Church Revitalization

In the next two episodes, we'll tackle a related but distinct topic: how to work through resistance when leading a church through change. While conflict and resistance overlap, they require different strategies and approaches.

Subscribe so you don't miss these critical episodes on navigating pushback during revitalization.

Resources for Managing Church Conflict

Download the Faith Communities Today (FACT) Congregational Conflict Study - insights from 14,000+ churches on conflict sources, costs, and outcomes.

About Revitalize My Church Podcast

Hosted by Bart Blair (Director of Church Revitalization at Assist Church Expansion) and Nathan Bryant (Executive Director), this podcast helps pastors and leaders of smaller, struggling churches navigate change and build healthy futures. New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of each month.

Subscribe so you don't miss Part 2 of this essential series on conflict management in church revitalization.

Is your church experiencing conflict right now? What questions do you have about implementing these principles? Share your thoughts in the comments below.

Connect With Us

Don't miss future episodes! Subscribe to the Revitalize My Church podcast wherever you listen (Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc.) and leave a rating or review to help others discover the show.

About the Revitalize My Church Podcast: Since summer 2024, we've been helping church leaders navigate change and reorient to healthy futures. Our goal isn't to make small churches big—it's to help churches revision, revitalize, or restart find solid footing and healthy systems.

Revitalize My Church Podcast | Guest: Ed Short | Host: Bart Blair

Keywords: next level leader, church leadership development, pastor leadership skills, small church revitalization, leadership attributes for pastors, how to become a better church leader, coaching pastors

TL;DR — 4 Key Takeaways

Next level leadership is not about jumping from good to great overnight — it's about intentional, incremental growth from wherever you are right now.
Effective church leaders develop a set of core attributes including God-dependence, self-awareness, relational competence, and a bias toward implementation.
Self-awareness may be the single most critical leadership skill: knowing your strengths to capitalize on, and your weaknesses to neutralize or delegate around.
Pastors don't have to do it all alone — identifying implementers and key people on your team who complement your gaps is a legitimate and powerful leadership strategy.

Episode Overview

What separates a good pastor from a truly effective church leader? In episode 40 of the Revitalize My Church Podcast, host Bart Blair sits down with church leadership coach Ed Short to unpack the key attributes of what Ed calls a "next level leader." Whether you're pastoring a congregation of 40 or 140, this conversation is packed with honest, practical insight designed to help you take your leadership from where it is to where it needs to be.

Ed draws on decades of ministry experience — from student pastor to executive pastor to lead pastor of three churches including a church plant — to offer a grounded, real-world framework for leadership development that doesn't require a massive budget or a seminary refresher. Just honest self-assessment and a commitment to growth.

About the Guest: Ed Short

Ed Short is a church leadership coach and consultant who serves on the Assist Church Expansion team alongside host Bart Blair. His ministry journey spans student ministry, executive pastoral leadership, and lead pastor roles at multiple churches. Ed is passionate about two things above all: evangelism — reaching people far from God — and discipleship, helping new believers begin to look like Jesus.

Ed's wife Carol is, in his words, "the best ministry worker I have ever been around" and serves as his most trusted ministry advisor. Ed's coaching work focuses on helping pastors identify their leadership ceiling and take measurable steps to break through it.

Note: Ed previously appeared on Episode 15 of the Revitalize My Church Podcast, covering how churches can navigate a pastoral search process. That episode remains the most downloaded in the show's history.

What Is a Next Level Leader?

Ed uses the analogy of a five-tool baseball player — think Willie Mays or Mike Trout — to frame what it means to be a next level leader. Just as the elite players in baseball excel at hitting for average, hitting for power, speed, fielding, and throwing, great leaders develop across multiple dimensions simultaneously.

But the goal isn't perfection — it's progress. As Ed explains:

"If you're a four, how do we help you become a five? If you're a six, how do we help you become a seven? Nobody goes from being a four to a nine."

The framework Ed has developed identifies a range of attributes, qualities, abilities, and mindsets that characterize next level leaders. Rather than feeling overwhelmed by the full list, Ed encourages leaders to identify three things they can capitalize on and two or three areas they need to neutralize or delegate around.

Key Attributes of a Next Level Leader

1. God-Dependence

Ed opens with what he calls his own weakest point — and it may be yours too. God-dependence means prioritizing prayer and reliance on God above strategic planning. Ed admits freely: "I would rather plan than pray." This honest vulnerability is itself a leadership quality.

For pastors in struggling churches, the temptation to rely on programs, outreach strategies, and revitalization frameworks is real. But sustainable renewal begins with leaders who are genuinely surrendered to God's direction.

2. Self-Awareness

Bart identifies self-awareness as possibly the single most glaring leadership deficiency he sees across the pastors he coaches. A next level leader knows who they are — their strengths, their blind spots, their default tendencies under pressure.

Self-awareness enables you to:

Capitalize on your natural gifts rather than hiding them
Neutralize weaknesses by building systems or delegating effectively
Invite the right people into your leadership circle
Avoid the trap of trying to lead in ways that are fundamentally misaligned with how God wired you

3. Relational Competence and Emotional Intelligence

Small churches live and die by relationships. A pastor who cannot build trust, manage interpersonal tension, or read the emotional temperature of a room will struggle to lead change — no matter how sound their vision.

Ed and Bart discuss how relational intelligence enables leaders to motivate volunteers, navigate conflict, and create cultures (not just programs) that sustain long-term health.

4. Vision and Communication

Next level leaders can articulate where the church is going and why it matters. But vision casting isn't just about big-stage moments — it's the consistent, everyday practice of helping people connect their effort to a larger purpose.

This distinction between management (telling people what, how, and when) and leadership (casting vision and guiding people toward it) is a consistent theme on the Revitalize My Church Podcast. Next level leaders lean toward leadership even when management feels more efficient.

5. Being an Implementer

Both Bart and Ed agree: the ability to implement — to take a vision off a whiteboard and actually make it happen — may be the most glaring gap in pastoral leadership today. Many pastors are strong visionaries but poor executors.

Ed's advice for non-implementers:

Identify someone on your team who is a natural implementer and empower them
Be honest about your wiring — if you write with your right hand, don't try to lead with your left
Read The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber for a practical framework on the difference between workers, managers, and leaders

Bart shares a powerful example from his own ministry: a part-time staff member who could take a big-picture concept and execute it flawlessly — leaving no stone unturned. You may already have that person on your team. You just haven't been looking for them.

6. Generosity and Stewardship Development

A next level leader understands that financial health in a church is downstream of spiritual and cultural health. Rather than simply hoping the budget improves, they take deliberate steps:

Preach on generosity, stewardship, and giving
Offer financial discipleship tools like Financial Peace University
Reach new people and then invest in discipling them toward biblical generosity
As Bart notes, you may not be able to draw a straight line between these efforts and budget improvement — but doing nothing guarantees nothing will change.

Practical Application for Small Church Pastors

If you're leading a smaller or struggling church, here's how to put this episode to work immediately:

1. Do a personal leadership audit. Identify your top 3 strengths and your 2-3 biggest gaps. Be honest — the goal isn't a performance review, it's clarity.

2. Stop trying to lead with your non-dominant hand. If implementation isn't your gift, find the person in your church or on your team who does it well and empower them.

3. Build a culture, not just a program. Culture takes time, but it starts with intentionality. What are you doing consistently to create cultures of generosity, evangelism, and discipleship?

4. Start praying before planning. Even if — especially if — this doesn't come naturally to you.

5. Read The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. It's older but highly practical for understanding the worker-manager-leader distinction.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber — available on Amazon in digital format (~150 pages, highly accessible)
Episode 15: How to Help Your Church Find a New Pastor — the most downloaded episode of the Revitalize My Church Podcast, also featuring Ed Short
Assist Church Expansion — assistcx.org
Revitalize My Church Podcast website — revitalizemy.church/podcast

About Revitalize My Church Podcast

The Revitalize My Church Podcast is produced by Assist Church Expansion and hosted by Bart Blair, Director of Church Revitalization. New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of each month. The show exists to help pastors and church leaders navigate change, recapture vision, and move their congregations toward a new and healthy future — without pretending they have unlimited budgets, staff, or energy.

Hosts: Bart Blair (Director of Church Revitalization, Assist Church Expansion) & Nathan Bryant (Executive Director, Assist)

TLDR: Key Takeaways

1. Conflict is normal in churches - 75% of 14,000+ surveyed churches experienced conflict; it's not an exception, especially during revitalization

2. Conflict differs from resistance - Resistance to change requires different handling than general congregational conflict between members

3. Face reality: conflict will come - Change creates conflict; prepare your leadership team to expect and plan for it rather than being blindsided

4. Move toward conflict quickly but wisely - Address issues within 48-72 hours to prevent escalation, but take time to pray and process first

5. Always go face-to-face - Never resolve conflict through text or email; digital communication strips away tone and escalates tension

6. Bring a witness - Leaders should include an elder or team member when mediating conflict to ensure accountability and accurate reporting

How Do You Handle Conflict During Church Revitalization?

Conflict is one of the most challenging aspects of leading a church through revitalization. In this episode, Bart Blair and Nathan Bryant tackle the reality that 75% of churches experience some level of conflict - and provide practical keys for navigating it successfully.

Why Is Conflict So Common in Churches Going Through Revitalization?

Church revitalization creates a perfect storm for conflict:

• Change itself generates tension between longtime members and new vision

• Power dynamics shift as leadership structures evolve

• Resource scarcity creates disagreements about priorities

• Unspoken expectations lead to assumptions and misunderstandings

• Communication gaps allow gossip to fill the vacuum

According to the Faith Communities Today (FACT) study of over 14,000 congregations, the top sources of church conflict are:

• Member behavior (44%)

• Money and finances (42%)

• Worship style (41%)

• Leadership style (40%)

• Decision-making processes (39%)

• Program priorities (30%)

• Theology and doctrine (26%)

What's the Difference Between Conflict and Resistance in Church Revitalization?

Before diving into conflict management strategies, it's important to understand that resistance to change is different from general congregational conflict. Resistance specifically relates to pushback against new initiatives, while conflict can arise from interpersonal issues, behavior problems, or disagreements unrelated to revitalization efforts.

This episode focuses on managing conflict that occurs between members and maintaining unity - a primary responsibility of church leadership.

Key #1: Face Reality - Conflict Will Come

Scripture Foundation: "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance." - James 1:2-4

How Should Pastors Prepare for Inevitable Church Conflict?

Rather than being surprised or defensive when conflict emerges, church leaders must:

• Normalize conflict without treating it as catastrophic

• View it as an opportunity to bring unity and address underlying issues

• Prepare your leadership team to expect and plan for conflict

• Recognize common triggers like worship changes, leadership transitions, budget discussions, and demographic shifts

The key mindset shift: Conflict isn't necessarily bad - it's an opportunity to discover what people care about, clarify misunderstandings, and ultimately strengthen unity when handled well.

Why Do Even Experienced Pastors Get Blindsided by Church Conflict?

Many pastors with decades of experience still feel caught off guard by conflict because:

• Most leaders are idealistic and expect the best from people

• Conflict often comes from unexpected sources - the people you'd least expect

• Pastors are typically well-trained to handle theological disputes but poorly prepared for interpersonal and behavioral conflicts

Key #2: Move Toward Conflict Quickly (But Wisely)

Scripture Foundation: "In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold." - Ephesians 4:26-27

What Is the Right Timing for Addressing Church Conflict?

The 48-72 hour rule provides a balanced approach:

• Don't let conflict fester - wounds become infected, gossip fills the vacuum, and small issues escalate

• Don't react impulsively - you need time to pray, process, and plan your approach

• Act within 48-72 hours of discovering the conflict

What Three Things Happen When Church Leaders Delay Addressing Conflict?

1. Small conflicts escalate quickly in anxious church systems, especially in smaller congregations

2. Gossip fills the vacuum of leadership silence - when people lack facts, they make assumptions (usually negative)

3. People evaluate your leadership based on how you handle (or fail to handle) tension - your authority, competence, and character are all on display

How Should Church Leaders Prepare to Address Conflict?

Follow this three-phase approach:

PRAY - Stop and pray individually or as a leadership team before taking action

PROCESS - Write down exactly how you'll handle the conflict:

• What you'll say and how you'll say it

• How you might respond to different reactions

• Who needs to be involved in the conversation

• Map out the approach (even if it doesn't go according to plan)

ACT - Schedule the meeting promptly within that 48-72 hour window

Should You Expect Reconciliation in the First Meeting?

No. The first meeting should focus on fact-finding:

• Enter with a listening posture

• Ask excellent questions

• Gather what all parties perceive as the facts

• Remember: both parties believe their version of the story

Only after this initial investigation can you formulate a plan for reconciliation and restoration. Rushing to resolution without understanding all perspectives usually backfires.

Key #3: Go Face-to-Face

Scripture Foundation: "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you." - Matthew 18:15-16

Why Is Face-to-Face Communication Essential for Resolving Church Conflict?

Digital communication - especially text and email - is disastrous for conflict resolution because:

• Tone is stripped away - messages are easily misinterpreted

• Body language is absent - you can't read emotional state or intent

• Words become weapons - texts and emails can be screenshot, forwarded, and used against you

• Escalation happens 10x faster - misunderstandings multiply through digital channels

What Does the Research Say About Text Message Conflicts?

In real conflict situations, the same text message read by the sender sounds completely different than when read by the receiver. The sender's intended tone and meaning gets lost, replaced by the receiver's interpretation - often negative.

What Is the Hierarchy of Communication for Church Conflict Resolution?

1. In-person meeting (best option - always pursue this first)

2. Video call (if necessary due to distance)

3. Phone call (bare minimum acceptable)

4. NEVER text or email for conflict resolution (use only to schedule face-to-face meetings)

Should Church Leaders Meet Alone When Addressing Conflict?

No. Leaders should bring an elder or team member as a witness because:

• Accountability - keeps everyone's behavior in check during difficult conversations

• Accuracy - provides objective verification of what was actually said

• Protection - prevents "he said, she said" situations later

• Wisdom - multiple perspectives help navigate complex situations

• Light - ensures conversations happen with appropriate oversight, not in secret

This is especially important when mediating between two conflicting parties or when the conflict involves the pastor directly.

What Covenant Should Church Leadership Teams Make About Conflict?

Establish these three commitments:

1. We will meet with persons involved in conflict within 72 hours of discovering it

2. We will NOT resolve conflict through digital communication - always face-to-face

3. We will include another elder/leader when mediating conflict to ensure accountability

What Does "Go Up, Not Out" Mean in Church Conflict?

This simple phrase (taught by Pastor Thornley) helps congregation members understand Matthew 18:

• "Go UP" = Take your concern directly to the person involved or to leadership

• "Go OUT" = Spreading the issue to friends, gossip networks, and uninvolved parties

Teaching this principle helps prevent conflict from spreading throughout the congregation like wildfire.

What Are the Costs When Church Conflict Is Handled Poorly?

According to the FACT study, when conflict isn't managed well:

• 69% of churches lost members

• 39% experienced financial loss (people vote with their pocketbooks)

• 25% lost their leader (pastor resigned, was fired, or left)

• Damaged relationships, broken trust, bitterness, and sadness prevail

What Are the Benefits When Church Conflict Is Handled Well?

The same research shows powerful positive outcomes:

• 80% of vital, spiritually alive congregations deal openly with conflict

• 94% of pastors report positive outcomes when conflict is properly addressed

• Results include: greater wisdom, better vision clarity, stronger relationships, church purification, and increased unity

Jesus even prioritizes conflict resolution over worship: "Leave your gift at the altar and go make it right with your brother" (Matthew 5:23-24). Unity in the body is that important to God.

Coming in Part 2: Three More Keys to Managing Church Conflict

In the next episode, we'll cover:

• Key #4: Check Your Own Heart First

• Key #5: Deal Openly (Not Publicly)

• Key #6: Seek Win-Win Solutions

Don't miss these critical remaining keys for successfully navigating conflict during church revitalization.

Resources for Managing Church Conflict

Download the Faith Communities Today (FACT) Congregational Conflict Study - insights from 14,000+ churches on conflict sources, costs, and outcomes.

About Revitalize My Church Podcast

Hosted by Bart Blair (Director of Church Revitalization at Assist Church Expansion) and Nathan Bryant (Executive Director), this podcast helps pastors and leaders of smaller, struggling churches navigate change and build healthy futures. New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of each month.

Subscribe so you don't miss Part 2 of this essential series on conflict management in church revitalization.

Is your church experiencing conflict right now? What questions do you have about implementing these principles? Share your thoughts in the comments below.

Connect With Us - revitalizemy.church

Don't miss future episodes! Subscribe to the Revitalize My Church podcast wherever you listen (Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc.) and leave a rating or review to help others discover the show.

About the Revitalize My Church Podcast: Since summer 2024, we've been helping church leaders navigate change and reorient to healthy futures. Our goal isn't to make small churches big—it's to help churches revision, revitalize, or restart find solid footing and healthy systems.

Building a sustainable discipleship culture that transforms hearts, not just minds

TLDR (The Quick Takeaway)

• Identify your four types of people: Categorize your congregation into sleepers (spiritually asleep), seekers (genuinely open), consumers (service-focused), and disciples (committed followers)—and focus your energy strategically on each group rather than trying to be everything to everyone.

• Simplify to transform: Stop adding more programs. Instead, focus on creating a discipleship culture through spiritual disciplines like reflection, gratitude, and confession that actually change hearts and behavior, not just knowledge.

• Lead from your own renewal: Pastors experiencing burnout should prioritize their own spiritual formation and daily gratitude first—this "rewires" your soul and naturally makes your church healthier and more missional.

• Build a scalable discipleship pathway: Multi-campus churches can maintain their DNA while reaching diverse communities by being intentional about discipleship at every level, from sleepers to mature disciples.

Episode Summary

Pastor Daniel Im sits down with Bart Blair to discuss one of the most critical challenges facing church leaders today: how to disciple people in a way that actually transforms their lives and faith practices, not just fills their heads with Bible knowledge.

In this conversation, Daniel shares lessons from leading a 104-year-old multi-ethnic, multi-campus church in post-Christian Canada, and discusses his latest book, The Discipleship Opportunity: Leading a Great-Commission Church in a Post-Everything World. If you're a pastor feeling burned out, questioning your approach, or wondering how to reach and disciple people differently in today's culture, this episode is for you.

What You'll Learn

How to move beyond programs and create actual spiritual transformation in your congregation

Daniel challenges the church growth mentality that prioritizes attendance and buildings over genuine discipleship. He explains why many churches create "Christian consumers" instead of committed disciples, and what a healthier framework looks like.

The four categories of people in your church and how to reach them strategically

Daniel introduces the "quadrant" of people every church has: sleepers (spiritually asleep members), seekers (genuinely open to faith), consumers (who view church as a service to attend), and disciples (committed followers). Understanding these categories changes everything about your approach.

Why pastors should focus on gratitude and spiritual formation before trying to grow their church

Rather than chasing larger numbers, Daniel shares a surprising insight: when pastors focus on daily gratitude, spiritual disciplines, and their own transformation, the church naturally becomes healthier and more missional.

Practical discipleship strategies that work in both small and large churches

From his experience at Beulah Alliance Church (now multi-campus with 12,000+ attendees), Daniel shares how to build a discipleship culture that scales without losing its DNA.

The role of neuroplasticity and spiritual practices in forming Christlikeness

Daniel shares fascinating insights about how our brains actually change when we practice spiritual disciplines like reflection, meditation, and confession—and why this matters for church leaders trying to help people grow.

Key Quotes from the Episode

"My heart and my desire for you is that just like I pray every week, God, would you wake up the sleepers, the seekers, the consumers, and the disciples."

"It's so easy to just give up. It's so easy to get into ruts and just phone it in. When you wake up every day with intentional gratitude to Jesus... it will actually rewire your mind and your soul in the way that God designed it."

"The world has changed dramatically. Church leaders must change their strategies, not retreat to the past."

"If we don't reflect upon our life, we're just going to keep on repeating it over and over again."

How to Disciple Church Members More Effectively Than Traditional Programs

Daniel challenges the assumption that more programs = better discipleship. Instead, he advocates for:

• Simplifying your church structure to focus on spiritual formation rather than activity

• Identifying where people are spiritually (sleepers, seekers, consumers, disciples) and meeting them there

• Using reflection and spiritual practice as tools for actual transformation

• Building accountability relationships where believers disciple one another

How to Help Pastors Avoid Burnout and Ministry Ruts

One of the most encouraging parts of this conversation is Daniel's message for exhausted pastors:

• Don't wait for better circumstances to renew your joy in ministry

• Start each day with intentional gratitude for the calling God has given you

• Focus on your own spiritual formation first

• Remember that God's mission is bigger than your church's growth numbers

The Importance of Reaching Sleepers and Seekers in Your Community

Rather than trying to reach the "Christian consumers" (people who just want a good service), Daniel encourages pastors to focus energy on:

• Spiritually asleep members who have grown numb to their faith

• Genuine seekers who are open and curious about following Jesus

• People outside the church who are actually hungry for real community and meaning

This shift in focus often leads to greater spiritual health and authentic growth.

Building a Multi-Ethnic Discipleship Culture Without Losing Your Church DNA

Beulah Alliance Church has undergone significant demographic changes in the past 15 years, becoming increasingly multi-ethnic while remaining rooted in its values and mission. Daniel shares how to:

• Navigate rapid cultural shifts in your community

• Build inclusivity without diluting your church's core identity

• Lead a diverse congregation toward unified mission

• Develop leaders from within your changing community

How to Create a Discipleship Pathway That Actually Works in the Post-Pandemic Church

The pandemic exposed weaknesses in many churches' discipleship approaches. Daniel discusses:

• What needs to change about how we "do church" in the post-everything world

• Why pastors shouldn't try to recreate the pre-pandemic church

• How to build resilience and flexibility into your discipleship culture

• The role of intentional spiritual disciplines in post-pandemic ministry

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• Book: The Discipleship Opportunity: Leading a Great-Commission Church in a Post-Everything World by Daniel Im

• Book: No Silver Bullets: Five Small Shifts that Will Transform Your Ministry by Daniel Im

• Website: danielim.com

• Podcast: IMbetween Podcast (with his wife, Christina) — exploring marriage, parenting, and faith from pastoral, theological, and psychological perspectives

• Church: Beulah Alliance Church — Edmonton, Alberta

About Pastor Daniel Im

Pastor Daniel Im is the Lead Pastor of Beulah Alliance Church in Edmonton, Alberta, a 104-year-old, multi-ethnic, multi-campus church with five generations of faith community. He's the author of several books, including The Discipleship Opportunity, No Silver Bullets, Planting Missional Churches, and You Are What You Do.

Daniel's background includes:

• Serving in pastoral roles across Vancouver, Montreal, Korea, Nashville, and now Edmonton

• Co-writing Planting Missional Churches with Ed Stetzer

• Producing content with LifeWay Christian Resources

• Currently pursuing a doctorate and studying the neuroscience of spiritual formation

Daniel is Canadian of Korean descent and grew up in a Korean immigrant family in the Vancouver area. He's married to Christina, with whom he co-hosts the IMbetween Podcast. His unique combination of pastoral experience, theological training, and interest in neuroscience makes him a distinctive voice in today's church leadership conversation.

Discussion Questions for Your Leadership Team

Use these questions to discuss this episode with your church's leadership or small group:

1. Which category describes most of the people in your church right now—sleepers, seekers, consumers, or disciples? What does that tell you about your discipleship approach?

2. What programs could you simplify or eliminate to focus more on spiritual transformation than activity?

3. How are you personally practicing spiritual disciplines like reflection, meditation, and confession? How could you model this for your congregation?

4. What would it look like for your church to be more intentional about reaching spiritually asleep members and genuine seekers rather than just serving existing "Christian consumers"?

5. As a pastor, where are you experiencing burnout? How could focusing on daily gratitude and your own spiritual formation help?

6. How is your community changing demographically? How can your church build inclusivity while staying rooted in your core mission?

Share This Episode

If this conversation encouraged you or challenged your thinking about your church's future, share it with:

• Your church leadership team or board

• Your pastor or denomination leader

• Church planter networks in your area

• Other pastors navigating similar challenges

Subscribe & Stay Updated

New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of every month. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or on YouTube to get notified when new conversations about church leadership, revitalization, and growth drop in your feed.

Hosts: Bart Blair (Director of Church Revitalization, Assist Church Expansion) & Nathan Bryant (Executive Director, Assist)

Episode Summary

In this episode, Bart and Nathan discuss five common obstacles that derail church revitalization efforts. Based on years of experience coaching churches through renewal and replanting, they identify specific failure points and provide practical solutions to help church leaders navigate change more effectively. This episode is designed to help church leaders position their churches for success in 2026 and beyond.

TLDR: 5 Critical Mistakes That Sink Church Revitalization

•       Overestimated Readiness: Churches think they're ready for change but haven't prepared their congregation or identified cultural barriers—use health and readiness assessments before launching revitalization.

•       Unrealistic Growth Expectations: Expecting to reach younger demographics without addressing cultural dissonance—conduct a demographic study and focus on reaching the lost, not just targeting an age group.

•       Poor Leadership Pacing: Leaders often move too fast without relational capital or too slowly without momentum—get a coach and build a strategic vision team to maintain accountability.

•       Complicated Decision-Making: Consensus-based governance on every decision creates red tape that prevents progress—delineate staff, board, and congregational decisions and simplify your structure.

•       Unprepared for Conflict: Most churches are reactive rather than proactive in conflict management—implement Biblical conflict training before crisis hits and address issues early using Matthew 18 principles.

Why Churches Overestimate Their Readiness for Revitalization Efforts

Key Points:

•       Hearts say "yes" to change, but heads aren't prepared to follow

•       Churches are unclear about how much change is actually necessary

•       They're looking for a "silver bullet" rather than understanding systemic cultural change

•       Congregants have conflated practices with theology—they believe cultural expressions are biblical mandates

•       Small changes (like removing a painting or changing wall colors) can create unexpected resistance

Solution:

•       Conduct a Health Assessment and Readiness Assessment before beginning revitalization

•       Use the "Praying for Renewal in Our Church" 40-day prayer guide to prepare the congregation spiritually

•       Download the Health Assessment at RevitalizeMyChurch.com

•       Spend time nurturing relationships and moving people toward readiness rather than rushing into change

How to Help Aging Churches Attract Younger Families Without Unrealistic Expectations

Key Points:

•       Churches have lost younger generations due to cultural dissonance between the church's identity and contemporary culture

•       The church's identity is often frozen at its "peak"—whatever cultural expression existed when the church was most vibrant becomes permanent

•       Young people feel they're "time traveling" when they enter the sanctuary

•       Young adults seek churches where they can bring friends and feel culturally at home

•       Focus should be on reaching the lost, not necessarily on achieving a specific age demographic

Solution:

•       Conduct a demographic community study to understand who lives in your area

•       Ask and answer: "Who are we most likely to reach given our location and community connections?"

•       Don't assume that hiring a young pastor automatically attracts young families

•       Recognize that growth often happens with people just 5 years younger than your current average age—don't make youth the only goal

Understanding the Critical Impact of Leadership Speed on Church Revitalization Success

Moving Too Fast (Most Common)

•       Leaders come in with vision and urgency but haven't built relational capital

•       They move like managers ("do what I say") rather than leaders ("follow where I'm going")

•       Changing minor things that congregants hold dear creates major conflicts

•       Leaders haven't given people time to process and buy into the vision

Moving Too Slowly (Less Common but Damaging)

•       Key leaders burn out waiting for change to happen

•       Momentum dissipates when prepared leaders see no action

•       "Should do's" accumulate without implementation

Solution:

•       Get a coach who understands change management to help you discern pace

•       Build a Strategic Vision Team of key stakeholders and influencers

•       Include an administrator on the vision team to maintain accountability for implemented decisions

•       Reference: "Canoeing the Mountains" by Todd Bolsinger—people will trust you "off the map" when they trust you "on the map"

•       Reference: "The 5 Levels of Leadership" by John C. Maxwell—understand that title alone is the lowest level of leadership influence

Why Complicated Decision-Making Processes Derail Church Growth and How to Fix It

Key Points:

•       Smaller, declining churches often have all remaining members in leadership positions (church council, board, etc.)

•       "Consensus thinking" requires agreement on everything—from paint colors to curriculum choices

•       This structure empowers the "least common denominator" and prevents necessary change

•       The congregation gets consulted on decisions where they shouldn't have a vote

Solution:

•       Bring in a third party to assess your current decision-making structure

•       Clearly delineate three categories: Staff decisions (made by staff/pastor with board input), Board decisions (made by board without full congregational vote), and Congregational decisions (major vision, budget, hiring senior pastor, etc.)

•       Don't rewrite bylaws and constitutions—instead, temporarily suspend them and operate under a simplified structure

•       Ask: "Was the constitution written for the church, or the church written for the constitution?"

Building Biblical Conflict Management Skills to Protect Your Church During Transition

Key Points:

•       Change always brings conflict—it's not something to avoid but to manage well

•       80-85% of conflicts are communication issues (misunderstandings, assumed motives)

•       According to "Becoming a Future Ready Church," the top cause of church conflict is people's behavior—not theology

•       Churches often respond reactively: sweeping issues under the rug, allowing gossip, avoiding confrontation

•       Unresolved conflict always creates more conflict

•       Matthew 18 gives biblical framework: address individually first, then with two witnesses

Solution:

•       Be proactive, not reactive—train before crisis hits

•       Implement Biblical Conflict Management training for pastors and elders

•       Teach the congregation about grace, unity, and Christ-centered relationships

•       Nip conflict in the bud through healthy, timely conversation

•       When addressing conflict, never go alone—bring two witnesses

•       Consider being part of a denominational group for mediation help at higher levels

•       Look into online courses and consultation groups specializing in Biblical conflict management

Key Takeaways

1.     Assess before you accelerate. Use both health and readiness assessments.

2.     Build relational capital before spending it on change.

3.     Know your community. Don't assume you know who you should reach.

4.     Simplify your governance. Not every decision requires full congregation input.

5.     Prepare for conflict proactively. Biblical conflict management is a learnable skill.

Resources Mentioned

•       Health Assessment: Available at RevitalizeMy.Church

•       "Praying for Renewal in Our Church": A 40-day prayer guide for church renewal

•       "Canoeing the Mountains" by Todd Bolsinger

•       "The 5 Levels of Leadership" by John C. Maxwell

•       "Becoming a Future Ready Church"

Connect With Us

Don't miss future episodes! Subscribe to the Revitalize My Church podcast wherever you listen (Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc.) and leave a rating or review to help others discover the show.

About the Revitalize My Church Podcast: Since summer 2024, we've been helping church leaders navigate change and reorient to healthy futures. Our goal isn't to make small churches big—it's to help churches vision, revitalize, or restart find solid footing and healthy systems.

Podcast Show Notes with Jim Tomberlin

TLDR: 4 Key Takeaways

Church mergers are no longer a last resort – They've evolved from a "survival tactic" to a legitimate growth strategy, with 40%+ of multi-site churches now acquiring campuses through mergers rather than church plants alone.

Focus on mission, not just survival – The most successful mergers happen when churches prioritize reaching their community and making disciples over simply preserving a building or institution.

One church leads, one follows – A successful merger requires clear leadership dynamics (not a 50/50 partnership). Health and trajectory matter more than size or wealth when determining the lead church.

Control is the biggest merger killer – More mergers fail due to pastors, board members, or donors unwilling to relinquish control than any other factor. Humility and kingdom-mindedness are essential.

How to Tell If Your Church Is a Good Candidate for a Strategic Merger

Jim Tomberlin breaks down the three categories of churches in America: about 20% are strong, 60% are stuck, and 20% are struggling. If your congregation falls into the stuck or struggling category, a merger might be the second chapter your church needs. Learn how to assess whether your church has the health and openness required to pursue a merger successfully.

What the Latest Statistics Show About Declining Churches and Merger Trends

Over 300,000 Protestant churches exist in the United States, but the landscape is shifting rapidly. Discover the current state of American churches, why approximately 100,000 church facilities could be repurposed or sold by 2030, and how mergers present an alternative to closure. This section reveals the data-driven reasons why church leadership conferences and denominational leaders are now taking mergers seriously.

Why Language Matters When Discussing Church Mergers With Your Congregation

The word "merger" carries negative baggage from the business world. Explore alternative language—restart, replant, partnership, adoption, collaboration, and consolidation—and learn why reframing the conversation can help your congregation embrace the possibility of joining with another healthy church. This is critical when communicating with your church members and moving toward a congregational vote.

How Multi-Site Church Models Are Changing Church Merger Conversations

The multi-site church movement fundamentally transformed how mergers work. Instead of the old "win-lose" merger outcomes (where one church absorbed another and both declined), today's mergers create "win-win-win" scenarios. Learn Jim Tomberlin's firsthand story from Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago and how it launched a 3,000-person campus through a strategic merger.

The Dance of Leadership: Making Church Mergers Work When Personalities Clash

Two churches can't have two leaders. This section explores the critical "dance" metaphor—understanding who leads and who follows in a merger conversation—and why it's not about size or wealth, but about health and trajectory. Discover the three foundational questions every merging church must answer: Is it possible? Is it feasible? Is it desirable?

Merging for Mission vs. Merging for Survival: The Critical Difference

Many struggling churches approach mergers from a place of desperation. But Jim Tomberlin explains why the most thriving post-merger churches shift their mindset from "how do we survive?" to "how do we reach our community?" This requires churches to let go of 1950s ministry models and embrace a "future-ready church" mentality that meets people where they are in 2025 and beyond.

25 Issues Every Church Merger Must Work Through (And Which Ones Are Deal-Breakers)

Church mergers aren't simple. Tomberlin and his team have identified 25 distinct issues that every merging church must address. While most are benign, typically 4-5 are potential deal-breakers. This section breaks down the top concerns for joining churches—including what happens to the pastor, the building, and the staff—and how to navigate these sensitive conversations.

Common Reasons Church Mergers Fall Apart (And How to Prevent Them)

Even when churches seem perfectly aligned, mergers can collapse. The #1 culprit? Someone doesn't want to give up control. Whether it's a pastor, board member, or influential donor, control issues derail more mergers than finances, building disputes, or theological differences. Learn the other warning signs and how to address them before they sabotage your merger conversation.

Advice for Pastors Leading Declining Churches: What Jim Tomberlin Would Tell You

If you've been pastoring your church for 15, 20, or 25 years and watched attendance decline, you're not alone. Tomberlin offers compassionate, practical guidance for pastors in this exact situation. He shares his own story of inheriting a church with a $1.8 million debt crisis and how taking a bold stand transformed it into a 5,000-person congregation. He also acknowledges that not all churches should merge—some pastors are called to shepherd a congregation faithfully through its closing.

How to Start a Church Merger Conversation: First Steps for Interested Pastors

Ready to explore a merger for your church? This section provides a practical roadmap. The first step is defining your church's reality: Are you strong, stuck, or struggling? From there, you have options including reading Better Together, seeking guidance from your denomination or network, or reaching out to a church consultant. A real-world example from central Texas shows how a declining church pastor took the initiative to contact a thriving multi-site church across the street.

About the Guest: Jim Tomberlin

Jim Tomberlin is the author of Better Together: A New Edition on Church Mergers (updated 2020, co-authored with Warren Bird) and has spent over 50 years in pastoral ministry. For the past 20+ years, he has consulted with churches navigating mergers, multi-site expansion, and revitalization. He was an early pioneer of the multi-site church movement in the 1990s and continues to help pastors and church leaders make strategic decisions about their congregation's future.

Connect with Jim:

Email: jimultisitesolutions.com

LinkedIn: Jim Tomberlin

Key Resources & Links Mentioned

Book: Better Together: A New Edition on Church Mergers (2020) – Jim Tomberlin & Warren Bird

Related Reading: Becoming a Future Ready Church (2024) – Warren Bird with other authors

Organization: The Unstuck Group (helps churches break through barriers)

Questions to Ask Your Leadership Team

Use these questions as you discuss whether a merger might be right for your church:

Is our church strong, stuck, or struggling? (Be honest about your assessment.)

Are we clinging to a ministry model from a previous decade rather than reaching people in 2025?

Do we have a pastor or influential leader who might resist giving up control?

Is there a healthy church in our community we could partner with or merge with?

Are we merging for mission or just for survival?

What are we willing to give up (name, building, pastoral staff) to gain new life?

Share This Episode

If this conversation encouraged you or challenged your thinking about your church's future, share it with:

Your church leadership team or board

Your pastor or denomination leader

Church planter networks in your area

Other pastors navigating similar challenges

Subscribe & Stay Updated

New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of every month. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or on YouTube to get notified when new conversations about church leadership, revitalization, and growth drop in your feed.

Bart Blair shares five essential books to help church leaders grow in their ministry and guide their churches toward greater health and vitality in 2026. Whether you're in revitalization, replanting, or simply seeking to lead more effectively, these books offer practical wisdom and biblical foundations for lasting change.

Subscribe & Listen to the Revitalize My Church Podcast

•       Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all major podcast platforms

•       New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of each month

Book 1: The Discipleship Opportunity

Author: Daniel Im

Lead Pastor at Beulah Baptist Church in Edmonton, Alberta

Subtitle: How Churches Can Equip the Saints to Do the Work of Ministry

Key Takeaway

Every church has discipleship-related systems (classes, programs, models), but not all have an integrated discipleship pathway where systems work together to move people toward spiritual maturity.

Featured Quote

"I have found that every church has discipleship-related systems, but not every church has a discipleship pathway. Essentially, any sort of class, model, or program can be seen as a discipleship-related system. However, it's only when all these systems are working together in an interconnected fashion (instead of working in isolation) that you get a discipleship pathway—a system of systems."

Why This Book Matters

•       Moves beyond theory to practical systems

•       Helps integrate disconnected programs into a cohesive pathway

•       Based on real-world church implementation

Book 2: The Strategically Small Church

Author: Brandon J. O'Brien

Subtitle: Intimate, Nimble, Authentic, and Influential

Key Takeaway

Small churches have unique strengths—intimacy, agility, and authenticity—that should be leveraged as advantages rather than viewed as limitations to overcome.

Featured Quote

"A strategically small church is not a large church that hasn't grown yet. It's a church that has intentionally chosen its size because it believes that's the best way to accomplish its mission in its community."

Why This Book Matters

•       Challenges the "bigger is better" mentality

•       Gives permission to churches to define success on their own terms

•       Helpful for replants and churches seeking to find their identity

Book 3: 8 to 15

Author: Tom Mercer

Subtitle: The World Is Smaller Than You Think

Key Concept: The Oikos

The ancient Greek word "oikos" refers to your natural network of relationships—family, friends, neighbors, coworkers, and acquaintances. God has already placed 8-15 of these people in your everyday world as your primary mission field.

Key Takeaway

Most people come to faith through close relational influence, not programs or events. Share Christ naturally over time with the people God has already placed in your life.

Practical Steps

•       Pray for these 8-15 people by name

•       Build intentional relationships

•       Share Christ naturally

Why This Book Matters

•       Equips every believer (not just pastors) to be an evangelist

•       Shifts focus from programs to personal relationships

•       Multiplies evangelism and disciple-making through natural networks

Book 4: The Plurality Principle

Author: Dave Harvey

Subtitle: How Your Church Can Be Healthier, Wiser, and More Resilient with Shared Leadership

Key Takeaway

Elder plurality (shared leadership) reflects God's design for the church and leads to better decisions, reduced risk, and sustainable ministry.

Featured Quote

"Plurality is not a weakness or a limitation. It's actually a reflection of how God designed the church to function. When you have multiple leaders bringing different gifts, different perspectives, different areas of expertise, you make better decisions. You're less likely to go off the rails. And you build in sustainability for the future."

Why This Book Matters

•       Provides biblical foundation for shared leadership

•       Practical guidance for church planters and replants

•       Helps avoid pastor-dependent church structures

Book 5: Lead Like It Matters

Author: Craig Groeschel, Pastor of Life Church

Subtitle: Your Lifetime Leadership Platform

Key Takeaway

Your legacy as a leader isn't built on what you accomplish, but on who you develop. Investing in people multiplies your impact far beyond your tenure.

Featured Quote

"The greatest legacy you leave is not what you accomplish, but who you develop. The people you pour into, the leaders you raise up, that's what will outlast you. That's what will continue to impact the kingdom long after you're gone."

Core Leadership Principles Covered

•       Clarity

•       Courage

•       Character

•       Culture

Why This Book Matters

•       Applies to churches of any size

•       Honest about the costs and challenges of leadership

•       Reorients leadership around generational impact

How to Use These Recommendations

•       Pick one book that resonates most with you and your current context

•       Better yet: Read as a team (elders, staff, ministry leaders)

•       Use discussion questions at the end of chapters for group processing

•       Set a pace (e.g., one chapter per week) for accountability

Connect & Share

•       Have a book recommendation? Leave a comment on your podcast platform

•       Subscribe to get new episodes on the 1st and 15th of each month

•       Share this episode with your leadership team

About This Podcast

Revitalize My Church is a podcast dedicated to helping churches navigate change and reorient to a new and healthy future. Host Bart Blair shares practical wisdom and biblical foundations for church revitalization, renewal, and replanting.

Episodes release twice monthly:

•       1st of the month: Conversations with Nathan Bryant (Ministry Assist Executive Director) on revitalization principles

•       15th of the month: Interviews with practitioners and leaders in the field of revitalization

Are you a church leader, pastor, or ministry volunteer hoping your congregation can better serve families affected by autism, ADHD, sensory processing differences, or other neurodiversities? Are you searching for real, tried-and-true methods to establish special needs ministry, start a sensory room, and foster a culture of inclusion in your faith community? This is the episode for you!

Key Topics Covered:
- How Amanda’s 25+ years as an occupational therapist shaped her perspective on church ministry for families with special needs.
- Powerful statistics about the prevalence of special needs in communities—and the essential role churches can fill (did you know that as many as 1 in 5 families have a child with special needs?).
- Why small churches are naturally suited for effective special needs outreach—sometimes even better than large churches!
- Busting the myth that creating “special needs spaces” or “sensory rooms” is expensive, complicated, or requires huge renovations.
- Step-by-step guidance on **how to set up a special needs-friendly environment** for neurodiverse children, including practical lighting, seating, sound, and visual strategies.
- The most important “non-negotiables” for a basic sensory room every church can afford to implement.
- The critical importance of including parents, siblings, and teenage volunteers in church special needs ministry.
- Serving not just the child, but the whole family: why support and community for parents and siblings changes everything.
- How to communicate your new special needs ministry to the public with authenticity while avoiding common missteps.

Real-World Takeaways for Churches:
- Tips for assessing and repurposing the spaces you already have — no major construction required!
- Budget-friendly equipment and furnishings that support sensory needs, focus, and calm.
- Why listening first and collaborating with families is the foundational key to launching a meaningful ministry.
- How teens can transform their own lives and perspectives by volunteering with special needs children—even fulfilling their service hour requirements!

Whether you’re looking to attract young families from your neighborhood or simply want to serve differently-abled members of your congregation, you’ll find practical advice, encouragement, and inspiration in this episode.

Listen in and learn:
- How to approach outreach to families with special needs
- What questions to ask when designing your church spaces
- Ideas for flexible seating, fidgets, weighted blankets, quiet spaces, and more
- Encouragement for small and mid-sized churches—you can make a huge difference!
- Where to get professional help (and why consulting with occupational therapists matters)

Don’t forget to subscribe for fresh episodes on the 1st and 15th of every month with new guests, actionable conversations, and practical church renewal strategies. If this episode helped you, please LIKE, SHARE, and COMMENT with your own experiences or questions about special needs ministry!

Resources & Links:
- Visit our website for articles, eBooks, and free assessment tools: https://www.revitalizemy.church/
- Listen to past episodes on church revitalization, hospitality, leadership, and more!

#SpecialNeedsMinistry #ChurchRevitalization #InclusiveChurch #ChildrenWithAutism #ADHD #SensoryRoom #FamilyMinistry #ChurchLeadership #BartBlair #AmandaPerches #ChurchPodcast #Neurodiversity #AssistChurchExpansion

Episode 33 of the Revitalize My Church Podcast explores:

Step 1: Look to Jesus for Restoration — Understand that your identity as God's child matters more than your ministry performance. God loves you unconditionally, not because of what you accomplish. Learn how to lean into your calling with confidence in God's provision, not your own abilities.

Step 2: Look Back on What God Has Already Done — High-achieving pastors often skip celebration to move to the next goal. Discover why celebrating small wins—spiritual growth, restored marriages, baptisms, and the simple fact that your church is still alive—is critical for combating discouragement.

Step 3: Check the Eternal Scoreboard — Stop measuring ministry success only by numbers. Understand that one person coming to Christ has eternal consequences that far exceed any attendance metric. Fix your eyes on what is unseen, not on visible metrics.

Step 4: Share the Load Through Delegation — Most pastors are doing too much and carrying unsustainable responsibility. Create a practical inventory of your tasks, identify what only you can do, and delegate the rest. Discover how delegation connects others to their calling and prevents pastoral burnout.

Step 5: Rest and Care for Your Soul — Jesus modeled regular withdrawal for prayer and restoration. Learn how to implement a monthly (or weekly) personal retreat day. Nathan shares his powerful practice of using a notebook to brain-dump burdens, clearing mental space for genuine encounter with God.

Bonus: Build Peer Accountability — Every pastor needs another pastor who understands the weight of ministry. Learn how to find and nurture a peer mentor relationship that provides encouragement, prayer, and authentic community.

This episode includes real-world examples, like how pastor Jerry faced unexpected resistance to simply repainting his church sanctuary, and Bart's golden accountability relationship with pastor Bob Church in Alberta. Whether you're in a small church plant or established congregation, whether you're struggling with unmet goals, resistance to change, or pure exhaustion, this conversation offers hope and actionable steps to reclaim your joy in ministry.

If you're tired, discouraged, or questioning your calling as a pastor in church revitalization, this episode will remind you of your true identity in Christ and provide the practical tools to sustain healthy, joyful ministry.

For more resources on church revitalization, pastor burnout, and leadership development, visit RevitalizeMyChurch.com or connect with Assist Church Expansion.

Subscribe to the Revitalize My Church podcast for episodes on church growth strategies, overcoming resistance to change, community outreach, and pastoral health. New episodes release on the 1st and 15th of every month.

#ChurchRevitalization #PastorBurnout #MinistryDiscouragement #ChurchLeadership #PastoralCare #SmallChurchMinistry #ChurchGrowth #PastoralWellness #ChristianLeadership #LocalChurch

Why Traditional Church Volunteer Recruitment Methods Fail

Most churches rely on ineffective methods like stage announcements, program inserts, and mass emails. These approaches typically result in low commitment rates, with many volunteers saying yes but never following through. Nick's framework addresses this by creating a systematic process that treats volunteer recruitment like a well-designed pathway rather than random requests.

Step 1: Prospects - Building Your Church Volunteer Contact List

Do you have enough prospects in your pool? Think of names on a list to talk to in order to get the number of volunteers you need. This is the foundation - having specific people identified rather than making general appeals.

Step 2: Conversation - Initiating Meaningful Volunteer Discussions

If someone is a name on your list and you don't know them well, you need to get into a conversation with them. This might start over email, text, or in the lobby, but the goal is moving from prospect to actual dialogue about serving.

Step 3: Orientation - Helping Prospects Understand the Ministry Vision

Getting them into orientation, which Nick approaches differently than most churches. This is where prospects learn about the ministry's purpose and impact.

Step 4: Onboarding - The Critical Process Where Churches Lose People

This is where many churches lose volunteers even after they say yes. The onboarding process includes several sub-phases:

• Observation Phase: Letting prospects see the ministry in action

• Thorough Vetting: Applications, background checks, interviews

• Intentional Apprenticeship: Serving alongside experienced volunteers with checklists

• Follow-up and Placement: Six-week check-ins to ensure success

Step 5: Placed - Successfully Serving in Their Ministry Role

The volunteer is now actively serving in their assigned role with proper support and ongoing development.

Six-Week Follow-Up Strategy for Church Volunteer Retention

Retention depends heavily on early follow-up. At the six-week mark, ministry leaders should meet with new volunteers to discuss:

• What aspects of the role energize them

• What drains or frustrates them

• Process improvements from a fresh perspective

• Potential role adjustments if needed

FEMA Nonprofit Security Grant Program: Up to $200,000 for Church Security

What Churches Can Purchase with FEMA Security Grant Money

The Nonprofit Security Grant Program provides up to $200,000 per physical address for facility hardening, including:

• Security cameras and monitoring systems

• Door access control and key card entry

• Alarms and emergency alert systems

• Fencing and bollards for vehicle barriers

• Blast-resistant glass and window coverings

• Security training (up to 5% of total grant)

Church Security Grant Application Success Rates and Timeline

Approximately 50% of organizations that apply receive funding, but success rates are much higher for properly prepared applications. Churches working with experienced consultants see success rates around 95% when applying consistently over 2-3 years.

The grant typically opens in May-June annually, with state-specific deadlines varying based on federal budget timing.

How Small Churches Can Benefit from Federal Security Grants

Even churches with limited budgets can effectively utilize the full $200,000 grant amount. Security upgrades often cost more than expected, and the improvements provide both enhanced safety and aesthetic benefits (such as upgraded doors and access systems).

Key Takeaways for Church Leaders Building Volunteer Teams

1. Systematic Approach Works: Moving from random recruitment to a structured 5-step process dramatically improves volunteer acquisition and retention.

2. Onboarding Determines Success: Most volunteer dropout happens during the first few months due to poor onboarding rather than recruitment issues.

3. Be Bold in Recruitment: Frame volunteer opportunities as beneficial for the person's spiritual growth, not just church needs.

4. Follow-Up is Critical: Six-week check-ins prevent early departure and provide valuable feedback for ministry improvement.

5. Small Churches Need Structure Too: Even with existing relationships, formal processes set important precedents and improve outcomes.

Resources Mentioned

• Book: "The Volunteer Playbook" by Nick Blevins (available on Amazon)

• FEMA Grant Information: ministryboost.org/resources (automated webinar every 2 hours)

• Podcast: Family Ministry Podcast (kids, students, and next-gen ministry focus)

About Nick Blevins

Nick Blevins serves at Community Christian Church north of Baltimore, Maryland, where he leads children's and student ministries as well as operations. The church, planted in 2006, will celebrate its 20th anniversary in March 2026. Nick transitioned from working at Northrop Grumman to full-time ministry, eventually marrying the pastor's daughter and dedicating his career to church leadership.

In addition to his local church role, Nick co-founded Ministry Boost in 2018, providing online coaching, courses, and consulting specifically for children's, student, and next-generation pastors.

Connect with Nick Blevins

• Ministry Boost: ministryboost.org

• Personal Website: nickblevins.com

• Church: Community Christian Church (north of Baltimore, Maryland)

This episode of the Revitalize My Church podcast provides actionable strategies for church leaders struggling with volunteer recruitment and retention, plus valuable information about federal security grants available to churches and nonprofits.

• Why Christmas outperforms Easter for visitor attendance
• The 3-step framework for successful Christmas outreach
• How to train your congregation to invite effectively
• Creative alternatives to traditional Christmas services
• Critical follow-up strategies to keep visitors coming back
• Real examples from church plants and revitalizing churches
• How to plan impactful events with just $200 and 25 people

1. Planning Your Event Start planning now - early November is not too early. Consider what your church can authentically do well rather than copying other churches. Use AI tools like ChatGPT to brainstorm creative ideas within your budget.
2. Mobilizing Your Congregation Train your people on how to invite effectively. Personal invitations during Christmas have the highest acceptance rate of any time during the year. Create multiple touchpoints throughout December, not just Christmas Eve.
3. Planning the Follow-Up Have a January event already planned before Christmas arrives. Announce your next opportunity during Christmas events. Create a clear pathway for visitors to return.

• Decorating homes for elderly residents
• Community meals for those without family
• Angel tree partnerships with local schools
• Mobilizing neighbors for service projects

• Fire pit parties with s'mores
• Outdoor Christmas BBQs
• Relationship-focused Christmas parties
• Collaborative community projects

1. Procrastination - Waiting too long to plan
2. Lack of mobilization - Not training your congregation to invite
3. No follow-up plan - Missing January reconnection opportunity
4. Copying others - Not being authentic to your church's identity
5. Doing nothing - The biggest mistake is not trying at all

• Start planning your Christmas strategy immediately
• Work creatively with your current budget and resources
• Think beyond traditional Sunday services
• Train congregation members on invitation strategies
• Schedule your January follow-up event now
• Focus on what your church does authentically well

• Leadership conflicts over vision and direction
• Congregation splitting into opposing camps over worship style
• Attendance declining from peak of 250-300 to under 60 people
• Members spiritualizing personal preferences instead of focusing on biblical matters
• Lack of new believers and baptisms over multiple years

• Unite around the need for change and new direction
• Prepare mentally for the challenges of revitalization
• Commit to supporting whatever changes would be necessary
• Understand their role in the revitalization process

• A four-page letter criticizing a sermon on Jesus turning water to wine
• Complaints about sanctuary lighting being "too dark" for theological reasons
• Objections to contemporary language used during services

• Looking beyond just musical ability to leadership and character qualities
• Considering older, more mature believers who bring theological depth
• Recruiting from local colleges, universities, and even karaoke venues
• Being willing to invest in temporary solutions while searching for long-term fits

• Not taking personal attacks personally while remaining compassionate
• Maintaining identity in Christ rather than ministry success
• Having unified elder support when facing criticism
• Learning from previous ministry mistakes

• Elder board unity and support during conflicts
• Financial stability maintained through COVID-19 pandemic
• New families joining who had never attended church regularly
• Baptisms of new believers after years without any
• Long-term members stepping into leadership roles

• Developing clearer discipleship pathways
• Creating better systems for tracking and following up with visitors
• Establishing policies and structures to support continued growth
• Training more leaders to prevent pastor burnout
• Preparing for associate pastor transition during church plant launch

1. Assess whether your leadership team is truly unified around the need for change
2. Consider partnering with an experienced revitalization organization
3. Prepare for the emotional and spiritual challenges ahead
4. Focus on reaching your immediate community rather than trying to recreate past glory
5. Celebrate small wins while maintaining long-term vision

• Why Question: Defining your biblical purpose
• Who Question: Clarifying your cultural identity
• How Question: Building your strategic plan
• Where Question: Painting your preferred future

• "The Vision Driven Leader" by Michael Hyatt
• "Exponential" by John & Dave Ferguson
• RevitalizeMyChurch.com (free resources & blog)

• Identify and recruit the right people for hospitality roles
• Create volunteer teams that focus on discipleship, not just task completion
• Turn Sunday service into a "spiritual gymnasium" for volunteer growth

• Why every church needs parking lot volunteers (even with empty spaces)
• How to train volunteers to create meaningful first impressions
• Making visitors feel expected and welcomed from the moment they arrive

• The difference between greeters and ushers
• Strategic volunteer placement throughout your church building
• How to help longtime members connect with newcomers

• Less-than-perfect music ministries
• Developing preaching skills
• Limited children's programming
• Small church size

• Website: maryannsibley.com
• Instagram: Follow for practical hospitality tips and volunteer leadership insights

• Start with a few committed volunteers rather than trying to recruit large teams
• Focus on discipleship through service opportunities
• Create consistent welcoming experiences from parking lot to sanctuary
• Expect God to bring new people and prepare accordingly
• Authenticity matters more than perfection in church hospitality

• First-time visitors are often scared and uncertain
• Many haven't been to church in 15-20 years or ever
• People are looking for connection and acceptance
• We represent Jesus and "the joy of the Lord is our strength"

1. Front Door Experience
   • Genuine, joyful greeters (not just going through motions)
   • Warm welcome without being overwhelming
   • Clear directions for newcomers
2. Corporate/Building Hospitality
   • Thinking like hosts in our own home
   • Clean, welcoming physical environment
   • Clear signage and navigation
   • Thoughtful preparation for guests
3. Personal Hospitality
   • Leaders modeling hospitality in their homes
   • Inviting people into your life beyond Sunday
   • Building real relationships and community
   • Cultural shift that starts individual, becomes corporate

• Many churches have 60-80 members but only 25-50 in attendance
• No clear expectations or obligations
• Membership becomes a finish line instead of starting point
• People commit more to little league than to church

• Covenantal commitment both directions (pastor to members, members to church)
• Clear expectations and benefits
• Active participation requirements
• Integration into church family as team members/partners

• Regular attendance
• Serving in ministry
• Participation in small groups
• Financial support
• Investing in relationships with non-believers
• Respecting church leadership and authority
• Commitment to church mission and values

"When you actually are thinking about how we gonna grow this thing, how we're gonna move forward, well, the primary way you're gonna do that is through relationships and connecting with people." - Nathan Bryant


"If you're not committed to one another, in my opinion, you're not a church." - Nathan Bryant


"The moment that they say yes to being a disciple of Jesus, a follower of Jesus, that's not the end game. That's the beginning of the race." - Bart Blair

• Implement the "three-minute rule" - first 3 minutes after service, only talk to people you don't know
• Reserve best seats for guests, not regular attenders
• Pastor should be available to newcomers after service
• Create clear pathways for meeting the pastor
• Think through your building from a first-timer's perspective

• Define clear expectations and benefits of membership
• Create a membership class/covenant process
• Use terminology like "partners" or "team members" instead of just "members"
• Prioritize pastoral care for committed members
• Establish membership as prerequisite for leadership roles

• Making Room for Life by Randy Frazee
• The Art of Neighboring by Dave Runyan
• I Am a Church Member by Thom Rainer

• Membership class template
  • https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RNhx9GcJKtiq7DawLrYEOS_qz4OAr3Cq/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=115189975872021768192&rtpof=true&sd=true

• Episodes covering essentials 1-6:
  • Dependent Prayer & Christ-Centered Worship
  • Text-Driven Preaching & Intentional Discipleship
  • Gospel-Centered Fellowship & Missional Engagement

• Share this episode with other ministry leaders
• Subscribe to the podcast to stay updated
• Visit the show notes for downloadable resources
• Evaluate your church's current hospitality and membership practices

• Essential safety protocols and background check requirements for children's ministry
• Creating inviting spaces for families on any budget
• Proven volunteer recruitment strategies that work in small churches
• Curriculum selection guidance for different church sizes and volunteer capacity
• Building sustainable ministry teams vs. relying on solo teachers
• Simple check-in systems that don't require expensive technology
• Effective partnership strategies between church and family discipleship
• Leadership skills needed to oversee vs. teach in children's ministry

• Vulnerable community: Creating safe spaces for confession, accountability, and real spiritual conversations
• Life-on-life ministry: Moving beyond listening to teaching toward discussing application together
• Biblical accountability: Where people confess what God is telling them to do and follow up on obedience
• Transformative engagement: Relationships that actually change how people live out their faith

1. Visit and participate in churches that are successfully doing gospel-centered fellowship
2. Create an incubator group with 4-5 solid families rather than trying to implement church-wide immediately
3. Experience it yourself first - leaders need to understand the value before asking others to participate
4. Teach the biblical foundation through preaching before launching programs
5. Start slow but intentional - focus on quality relationships over quick expansion

• Smaller group contexts where vulnerability is possible
• Regular spiritual conversations about how God's Word applies to daily life
• Accountability structures that encourage obedience to Scripture
• Prayer and confession as normal parts of community life

• M0: People already like you (current church members)
• M1: People similar to you who might naturally fit your church
• M2-M3: People in your community who don't think/believe like you but are reachable
• M4-M5: Cross-cultural mission requiring significant adaptation

1. Corporate Level: Church-wide events and initiatives focused on community connection
2. Group Level: Small groups and ministries engaging together in outreach
3. Individual Level: Church members being intentional in their existing relationships and networks

• Focus on existing connections rather than creating entirely new programs
• Think process, not events - building relationships takes time and multiple touchpoints
• Coordinate efforts across all three levels for maximum impact
• Define your target - who is God specifically calling your church to reach?

1. Connect with people where they are in your community
2. Build relationships through consistent, authentic interaction
3. Create spiritual thirst through genuine care and godly character
4. Move toward church involvement when appropriate
5. Share the gospel when God opens hearts and opportunities

• Authentic spiritual community creates overflow that attracts outsiders
• Deep relationships within the church prepare members to love difficult neighbors
• Gospel-centered fellowship provides the support system needed for effective outreach

• Serving together in evangelism creates deeper spiritual bonds
• Shared stories of God's work in mission build stronger community
• Team-based approaches prevent isolation and build accountability

• Acts 2:42-47 - The early church model of fellowship and evangelistic impact
• Matthew 28:19-20 - The Great Commission given to the church body
• Hebrews 10:24-25 - Spurring one another toward love and good deeds
• 1 Corinthians 3:6-7 - Paul planted, Apollos watered, God gave growth

• Episode 12: Adam Ehrlichman on Build Groups - small group ministry training and resources
• Episode 17: Six Principles of Evangelism - team-based evangelism strategies
• Hugh Halter: Author of "The Tangible Kingdom" and advocate for "missionary-ish" thinking
• Terry Long: North Carolina Baptist Association - 10 essentials for church revitalization

• Visit churches successfully doing gospel-centered fellowship
• Start with an incubator group of committed families
• Teach biblical foundations before implementing programs
• Define your community target and develop coordinated outreach strategies

• Focus on creating smaller contexts for deeper spiritual conversations
• Develop accountability structures that encourage biblical obedience
• Think "missionary-ish" in all community engagement efforts
• Prepare your church culture to welcome newcomers effectively

• Seek opportunities for vulnerable, gospel-centered community
• Examine existing relationships for missional opportunities
• Make space in your life for new relationships with non-believers
• Think process rather than event when building relationships with neighbors

• Website: RevitalizeMyChurch.com
• Release Schedule: 1st and 15th of each month
• Available on: All major podcast platforms and YouTube
• Anniversary: This episode marks one year of production

• "The Dream Church" book by Brian Moss
• Dream Church Conference (held annually each March)
• Oak Ridge Church, Salisbury, Maryland

• Text-Driven Preaching: Learn the crucial difference between teaching and preaching, how to strategically choose Scripture passages for your church's specific needs, and why application matters more than information transfer.
• Intentional Discipleship: Discover why discipleship doesn't happen by accident, how to create clear pathways for spiritual growth, and Jesus' proven model for developing mature followers.

• Mission focus
• Current values assessment
• Discipleship pathway
• Vision assessment

1. Over-relying on cosmetic changes
2. Implementing changes too quickly
3. Extended planning without action
4. Insufficient relationship building

• Ministry leaders (paid or volunteer)
• Future-focused individuals
• Active church participants
• People with godly character
• Those who respect church authority

• Comprehensive resource launched September 2023
• Features training videos, assessments, and AI tools
• Monthly workshops and new resources
• Digital versions of Dr. Malphurs' assessments

• Essential resource for church leaders
• Includes practical assessments and worksheets
• Used in seminaries worldwide

• Website: malphursgroup.com
• Services available to churches across denominations
• Free initial consultation available

• Hosts: Bart Blair (Director of Church Revitalization) and Nathan Bryant (Executive Director) from Assist Church Expansion
• New episodes are released on the 1st and 15th of each month
• This episode kicks off a mini-series based on content from Terry Long of North Carolina Baptists

1. Dependent Prayer
2. Christ-Centered Worship
3. Text-Driven Preaching
4. Intentional Discipleship
5. Gospel-Centered Fellowship
6. Missional Engagement
7. Joyful Hospitality
8. Meaningful Membership
9. Hopeful Vision
10. Leadership Development

• Prayer acknowledges our complete dependence on God's power
• Common issues in struggling churches: 
  • Lack of personal, corporate, and intentional prayer
  • Absence of prayer for leadership during pastoral vacancies
  • Failure to pray specifically for church renewal
• Spiritual benefits of prayer: 
  • Fosters unity and healing of relational rifts
  • Addresses apathy toward evangelism
  • Renews belief that God can use the church to reach the lost
  • Aligns church leadership with God's will
• Biblical foundations: 
  • Zechariah 4:6 - "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of hosts"
  • Psalm 127:1 - "Unless the Lord builds the house, the builders labor in vain"
  • James 5:16 - "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective"
• Practical application: 
  • Create an intentional prayer plan for the church
  • Involve elderly members who can contribute through prayer
  • Persist in prayer despite challenges (prayer is not a quick fix)
  • Resource mentioned: "Praying for Renewal in our Church" by Bart Blair (available on Amazon)

• Common issues in struggling churches: 
  • Worship has become routine and predictable
  • Lack of clear outcomes and intentionality
  • Disconnected worship elements without flow
  • Focus on execution rather than encounter with Christ
• Essential elements: 
  • Reestablishing Jesus as the center of everything
  • Creating transformative encounters with Jesus
  • Designing worship that tells the gospel story
  • Maintaining Christ-centered (not self-centered) content
• Warning about modern worship trends: 
  • Many songs focus more on "me/my/mine" than on Jesus
  • Popular radio songs may be singable but not always worship-focused
• Practical application: 
  • Consider the journey and outcomes of worship
  • Include testimonies of life transformation
  • Ensure worship communicates that "this is a place where God is changing lives"
  • Focus on excellence without making it about performance

• Website: www.RevitalizeMyChurch.com for podcast archives and additional resources
• Invitation to connect directly with Bart and Nathan via Zoom for customized help

• "Praying for Renewal in our Church" by Bart Blair (Amazon)
• "Reclaiming Glory" by Mark Clifton (mentioned in discussion)

• Director of Church Strengthening for Converge Mid-Atlantic
• Staff member at a church plant near Columbus, Ohio
• Founder of the Church Talk Project and host of the Church Talk Podcast
• Vision Day consultant for 95Network

• Most normative-sized churches (50-500 members) struggle with leading leaders
• Clear distinction between delegation and development
• Biblical mandate to equip saints for ministry (Ephesians 4)

1. Attender (primary function: learning)
2. Volunteer (primary function: serving)
3. Task Team Leader (organizing and administration)
4. Group Leader
5. Leader of Leaders (shepherding responsibility)

• Pastors doing everything themselves because it's "easier"
• Focus on delegation without development
• Lack of clear vision and values
• Time constraints for both pastor and potential leaders
• The "tyranny of Sunday" - constant pressure of weekly responsibilities

• Clarify your disciple-making vision
• Spend time observing people in action
• Start with just two potential leaders (not twelve)
• Invest in your own leadership growth

• Move beyond simple task delegation
• Follow the discipleship journey: 
  • I do, you watch
  • I do, you help
  • You do, I watch and help
  • You do, I cheer

• Define clear objectives beyond task completion
• Establish key performance indicators
• Regular evaluation and debriefing
• Build accountability into systems

• Start small and go slow
• Honor current leaders while developing new ones
• Focus on vision alignment
• Don't be afraid to let people try and learn
• Remember many people are eager for mentoring

• Don't be afraid despite challenging times
• Remember you have the message of hope
• Focus on serving Jesus, not just people
• Keep going even when things seem dark

• Church Talk Podcast (available on major streaming platforms)
• Website: churchtalkproject.com
• Email: jason@churchtalkproject.com
• Converge Mid-Atlantic: convergemidatlantic.com

• A 2021 LifeWay research study found 71% of people are open to hearing someone's life story when meeting them for the first time
• In the UK, 75% of non-Christians who had conversations with Christian friends about Jesus felt comfortable, and 33% wanted to know more
• Only 55% of non-Christians who knew a Christian said that person had ever talked about their faith

1. Choosing the Field
   • Identifying who God is calling you to reach
   • Focus on relationships where ongoing connection is possible
   • Consider both individual relationships and corporate community focus
2. Preparing the Soil (90% of the work)
   • Removing obstacles to faith through building relationships
   • Addressing sociological barriers rather than just theological ones
   • Creating connections between non-believers and multiple Christians
   • Building spiritual momentum through relational momentum
   • Listening more and talking less
3. Planting the Seed
   • Sharing the Word of God, specifically about Jesus and the gospel
   • Creating the right environment for growth
4. Cultivating
   • Giving time for the message to grow and mature
   • Not rushing to "close the deal" prematurely
   • Creating the best circumstances for spiritual growth
5. Harvesting
   • Picking the fruit when it's ripe
   • Recognizing when someone is ready to make a decision
6. Creating a "Greenhouse" Environment
   • Evangelistic Bible study approach (5-7 weeks)
   • Elements needed: Word of God, prayer, connection to believers, gifted teachers
   • Research shows significantly higher retention rates with this approach

• Churches need a clear process and strategy
• Leveraging different spiritual gifts within the church body
• Providing clear pathways for members to connect non-believers
• Working as a team to reach the community

• Book: "The Soul Winning Church" by J.A. Metters
• Previous Episode: #17 on the principles of evangelism

Lead Your Church Out Of Maintenance Mode

Signs Your Church May Be in Maintenance Mode with Dan Reiland

• Dan Reiland is a veteran executive pastor with over four decades of experience
• Served as John Maxwell's first and only executive pastor
• Spent 23 years at Twelve Stone Church in Atlanta
• Currently transitioning to full-time coaching and consulting
• Originally studied criminal justice and worked briefly as a private investigator before entering ministry
• Married for 43 years with two children and three grandchildren
• Known guitar enthusiast with a collection of 18-19 guitars

• Definition: "An ongoing and unaddressed holding pattern in momentum or attendance"
• Simplified definition: Being "stuck"
• Key indicators include: 
  • No longer taking risks
  • Vision isn't compelling or clearly defined
  • Working hard but not making progress
  • Not reaching new people

1. What's my leadership lid? Where do I need to grow?
2. Who's my coach/mentor?
3. How am I a better leader this year than last year?

• Churches naturally gravitate toward discipleship
• Need to maintain balance between discipleship and evangelism
• Leaders typically lean toward one or the other
• Must intentionally fight to keep evangelism as a priority

• Many churches try to do too many things
• Need for a "lean church" model
• No church can do everything effectively
• Focus on God's specific "thumbprint" for your church

1. Put a moratorium on new ministries
2. Conduct a ministry audit
3. Evaluate productivity and alignment with vision
4. Question why each ministry exists
5. Consider better alternatives

• Go slow
• Honor people
• Invite them into something new
• Accept that meaningful change will create some opposition
• "If you change something in your church and nobody gets mad, you've just changed something that doesn't matter"

• Develop leaders before delegating responsibilities
• Start with who you have
• Never underestimate the power of one leader
• Development takes time - embrace the "awkward zone"
• Focus on developing a few leaders while handling many tasks

• Ministry is worth it - don't give up
• What you're doing matters
• Focus on "one more" - one new leader, one person saved
• Progress can be incremental
• God is pleased with faithful progress, even if it's one person at a time

• Dan's website: danreiland.com
• Contains articles and several books
• All articles are freely available

• Most people come to faith through a journey rather than a single moment
  
  
• The farming metaphor in the New Testament illustrates this principle
  
  
• God works through multiple touchpoints and interactions over time
  
  
• Events can be part of the process but shouldn't be seen as the whole strategy
  
  

• Focus on helping people understand who Jesus is before asking for a decision
  
  
• Avoid the "get out of hell free" prayer mentality
  
  
• Success is measured by transformed lives, not just prayers prayed
  
  
• Biblical example: Jesus' command was to make disciples, not just converts

• Christians need to be "salt and light" in real relationships
  
  
• Restructure life to naturally engage with non-believers
  
  
• Community involvement creates opportunities for spiritual conversations
  
  
• Balance Christian fellowship with intentional outreach relationships
  
  

• Lead with God's desire for relationship rather than consequences
  
  
• Heaven and hell are real but secondary to the relationship aspect
  
  
• Reference John 17:3 - eternal life is knowing God
  
  
• Focus on adoption into God's family (John 1)
  
  

• The Great Commission was given to the disciples collectively
  
  
• Different gifts work together in evangelism just as in other ministries
  
  
• Team approach allows people to use their natural strengths
  
  
• No one person needs to carry the full weight of evangelism
  
  

• The Holy Spirit works through Scripture, people, and circumstances
  
  
• Be sensitive to the Spirit's leading in each situation
  
  
• Methods and scripts are tools, not rigid rules
  
  
• Prayer and spiritual sensitivity should guide outreach efforts
  
  

• Exegeting your community
  
  
• Five pillars of effective outreach strategy
  
  
• Engagement and assimilation in the church
  
  

• The difference between church revitalization and church replanting
• Six key indicators of a church's readiness for revitalization: 
  1. Recognition of reality
  2. Hearts that are humble
  3. Commitment to the Bible
  4. Desire to reach the community
  5. Willingness to do whatever it takes
  6. Belief that God can revitalize
• Understanding partnership levels between healthy and struggling churches
• The importance of handling change sensitively, especially with long-term members
• The role of third-party facilitators in church partnerships

• Book: "God's Not Done With Your Church" by Mark Hallock https://www.amazon.com/Gods-Not-Done-Your-Church/dp/0998859745
• Podcast: "Revitalize and Replant" with Mark Hallock and Mark Clifton
  https://open.spotify.com/show/2EuV9WcYpiWSE4WOQPWA5T?si=9199209e74294863

• Website: https://www.preachleadlove.com/
• Church: Calvary Englewood, CO - https://englewood.thecalvary.org/

Episode Overview
In this insightful episode of the Revitalize My Church podcast, host Bart Blair engages in a deep conversation with Ed Short, a seasoned ministry leader whose experience spans over four decades in pastoral ministry and church consulting. Their discussion provides crucial insights for churches navigating the challenging waters of pastoral transition, with particular emphasis on situations involving the departure of long-tenured leaders.

The Foundation: Assessment Before Action
Ed Short emphasizes that the key to a successful pastoral transition begins long before the search itself. Churches must first take a careful look inward, assessing their current effectiveness and understanding their unique cultural dynamics. This period of self-reflection allows the church leadership to dream about future direction and develop a clear vision for where they want to go. Without this crucial groundwork, churches risk making hasty decisions that could lead to unsuccessful pastoral placements.

The Modern Search Process
Gone are the days when finding a new pastor was as simple as posting a generic job description. Today's effective search process requires a comprehensive approach that goes far beyond basic qualifications. Ed discusses the importance of creating detailed, specific job postings that clearly communicate both the church's current reality and future aspirations. He strongly advocates for the use of multiple assessment tools, including the Working Genius assessment, DISC profiles, and spiritual gifts inventories, to ensure a thorough understanding of potential candidates.

Building Chemistry and Relationships

One of the most overlooked aspects of the pastoral search process is the importance of relationship building during the candidating phase. Ed shares valuable insights about moving beyond formal interviews to create opportunities for genuine connection. He recommends including extended visits that involve both the candidate and their spouse, suggesting activities that allow for natural interaction and conversation. These informal settings often reveal more about potential fit than traditional interview questions ever could.

The Compensation Conversation

The discussion takes a practical turn as Ed and Bart address the often sensitive topic of pastoral compensation. They emphasize the importance of creating packages that allow pastors to focus fully on ministry without financial stress. The conversation includes thoughtful considerations about cost of living differences between locations and the importance of basing compensation on skills and experience rather than family size. They challenge churches to think generously about their overall package while acknowledging the real constraints many congregations face.

Creating Healthy Transitions

The final portion of the episode focuses on best practices for managing the actual transition between pastors. Ed strongly recommends considering a temporary break for departing long-term pastors, suggesting a 9-12 month period away from the church. This approach gives new leadership space to establish relationships and build trust before implementing changes. He emphasizes the critical importance of the first year, encouraging new pastors to focus on relationship building rather than immediate vision casting.

About Ed Short

Ed brings a wealth of experience to this conversation, having served as a Lead Pastor for 25 years, along with roles as an Executive Pastor and Youth Pastor. His current work focuses on consulting with churches and coaching leaders through transitions and growth. His practical wisdom comes from both personal experience and years of helping churches navigate leadership changes.

Resources and Connection

Ed's expertise is available through his organization, ed@DevelopingNextLevelLeaders.org. Listeners can reach him directly at ed@assistcx.org for additional guidance on pastoral transitions and church leadership development. The episode references several valuable assessment tools, including the Working Genius Assessment, DISC Profile, and Spiritual Gifts Assessment, all of which can play crucial roles in the pastoral search process.

Final Thoughts

The Revitalize My Church podcast continues to provide practical insights and strategies for church revitalization and health, with new episodes released on the 1st and 15th of every month. For listeners interested in exploring related topics, the show recommends checking out their Fall 2024 episode featuring Eric Hoke from "I Help Pastors Get Jobs," which delves into bi-vocational and co-vocational ministry opportunities.

The conversation explores how churches can successfully integrate small groups alongside Sunday School programs, with each ministry serving unique but complementary purposes. Ehrlichman emphasizes the importance of proper leader development, warning against the common mistake of placing leaders before preparing them.

Particularly valuable is his insight into how small groups impact overall church health, from increased giving to improved volunteer engagement. Whether you're considering launching small groups or strengthening an existing ministry, this episode provides clear, actionable strategies for building sustainable group communities that foster deeper discipleship and authentic relationships.

• Eric's background and journey from full-time ministry to co-vocational ministry in NYC
  
  
• Understanding the difference between bivocational and co-vocational ministry
  
  
• Common objections to co-vocational ministry and how to address them
  
  
• Identifying transferable skills from ministry to marketplace
  
  
• Managing time and responsibilities as a co-vocational pastor
  
  

• Co-vocational ministry is a long-term strategy where pastors maintain both church and marketplace roles
  
  
• Bivocational ministry is typically a temporary arrangement until full-time ministry becomes viable
  
  
• Co-vocational pastors often report better work-life balance and longevity in ministry
  
  
• Churches need to shift from depending solely on paid staff to activating the whole congregation
  Pastors have many transferable skills including communication, leadership, and project management
  
  

• 
  Market Street Pastor (Eric Hoke's book)
  
  
• ihelpastorsgetjobs.com
  
  
• The Tangible Kingdom by Hugh Halter
  
  

• Website: ihelpastorsgetjobs.com
  
• Book: Market Street Pastor (available through website)
  
  
• Weekly Newsletter: Subscribe at ihelpastorsgetjobs.com

• Subscribe to the podcast
  
  
• Leave a comment on our YouTube channel
  
• Share your thoughts on co-vocational ministry

Dustin shares his journey of transitioning from a traditional Sunday School model to a dynamic small group ministry. He discusses the challenges faced, including resistance to change and the need for persistent vision-casting. Listeners will gain insights into the "why" behind small groups and how they differ from conventional discipleship models.

The conversation delves into practical aspects of small group implementation, focusing on Thrive Church's successful sermon-based model. Dustin offers valuable tips on leader selection and development, creating flexible meeting structures, and fostering genuine relationships within groups.

Key topics covered include:
- Overcoming common obstacles in small group ministry
- Strategies for integrating new members into existing groups
- Balancing numerical growth with spiritual depth
- Measuring the success of small groups beyond attendance numbers
- Practical steps for launching or revamping a small group ministry

Dustin also shares resources that have been instrumental in shaping Thrive Church's approach, including books like "Canoeing the Mountains" by Tod Bolsinger and "Activate" by Nelson Searcy.

Whether you're a pastor leading a church through revitalization, a ministry leader looking to strengthen your discipleship strategy, or simply interested in the power of community in spiritual growth, this episode offers a wealth of practical wisdom and inspiring insights.

Join us as we unpack the principles that have helped Thrive Church live up to its name, and discover how small groups can become a catalyst for growth, deeper discipleship, and vibrant community in your church.

The hosts begin by emphasizing the biblical pattern of God calling leaders to guide His people through significant challenges and changes. They reference Psalm 78:70-72, which describes how God chose David to shepherd Israel with integrity and skill. This passage highlights the importance of a leader's character and ability to effectively guide others.

The conversation then turns to the common tendency of churches to prioritize finding a pastor who excels in preaching and shepherding, while overlooking the critical need for strong leadership skills. The hosts stress that a pastor must be able to not only communicate well and care for the congregation but also cast a compelling vision and mobilize people to work together towards a common goal.

When searching for a new pastor, the hosts recommend that churches look for evidence of a candidate's ability to inspire and lead others in their previous roles. This could include examining how they built and empowered volunteer teams, developed strategic plans, and achieved significant goals in partnership with others. They also emphasize the importance of assessing a candidate's character, integrity, and interpersonal skills, as these qualities greatly impact a leader's effectiveness.

For pastors currently leading a church in need of revitalization, the hosts offer encouragement and practical advice. They suggest that these leaders start by prayerfully envisioning what a thriving, fruitful future could look like for their church. By writing down this "big dream" and sharing it with others, pastors can begin to gauge the level of trust and support they have within the congregation.

The hosts also urge pastors to invest in their own leadership development by seeking out mentors, learning from successful leaders in various fields, and asking for honest feedback on their leadership skills. They emphasize the importance of shifting from a mindset of "managing" people to truly leading and inspiring them towards a shared vision.

Throughout the episode, the hosts reference Todd Bolsinger's book "Canoeing the Mountains," which compares church leadership to the Lewis and Clark expedition. Just as the explorers had to adapt their approach when faced with unexpected challenges, church leaders must be prepared to guide their congregations through uncharted territory. The hosts highlight a key quote from the book: "No one is going to follow you off the map unless they trust you on the map." This underscores the importance of building trust and credibility with the congregation before attempting to lead them through significant changes.

The episode concludes with a reminder that leading a church through revitalization is a challenging journey that requires thick skin, grace, and perseverance.

Some key takeaways and scripture references from this episode include:

1. God calls and equips leaders to guide His people through challenges and changes (Psalm 78:70-72).

2. Effective church leadership requires a combination of strong preaching, shepherding, and leadership skills (Psalm 78:72).

3. When searching for a new pastor, churches should look for evidence of a candidate's ability to inspire, mobilize, and lead others towards a shared vision (Proverbs 29:18).

4. Pastors seeking to revitalize their churches should start by prayerfully envisioning a thriving future and sharing that vision with others (Habakkuk 2:2-3).

5. Investing in personal leadership development is crucial for pastors leading their churches through revitalization (Proverbs 11:14).

6. Building trust and credibility with the congregation is essential before attempting to lead them through significant changes (1 Timothy 3:2-7).

7. Leading a church through revitalization requires perseverance, grace, and a willingness to face challenges head-on (James 1:2-4).

In this episode of the Revitalize My Church podcast, host Bart Blair interviews Pastor Jim Brown of Grace Community Church in Goshen, Indiana. Pastor Jim shares his experiences leading the church over the past 28 years, from when he first arrived as a young pastor to a congregation of just 60 people, to the thriving multi-campus church it is today with over 2,600 attendees.

Pastor Jim reflects on the importance of maintaining a balance between ministry and family life, noting his structured lifestyle while still prioritizing time with his wife, children, and grandchildren. He recounts how he first came to Grace Community Church as a student at Grace Theological Seminary, and how the small, aging congregation took a chance on him as a new pastor.

When Pastor Jim arrived, the church was in decline with an older congregation. He recognized the need to shift the church's focus towards prayer, evangelism, and reaching out to the local community. By personally engaging in the interests and activities of the community, such as becoming a NASCAR fan and coaching youth sports teams, Pastor Jim began to connect with people and lead them to Christ.

As the church grew and began to welcome new believers, Pastor Jim emphasized the importance of creating a welcoming environment for those who were far from God. He shares how he would intentionally mention and celebrate new attendees during the service, helping the congregation to embrace and accept them, even if they initially seemed out of place.

Pastor Jim also discusses his approach to preaching, always keeping in mind that there are likely people in the room who are not yet followers of Jesus. He stresses the importance of crafting sermons that speak to both the saved and the unsaved, using relatable illustrations and avoiding Christian jargon that may alienate new believers. He encourages pastors to view their churches as "greenhouses" where the gospel is shared, and to trust that God will send seekers to congregations that faithfully proclaim the truth.

Reflecting on pivotal moments in his ministry, Pastor Jim shares how he nearly resigned when the church had grown to the point where he no longer knew everyone personally. He struggled with the realization that he could not maintain the same level of relationship with each member, but ultimately felt God calling him to empower and release other leaders to help shepherd the growing flock.

Another defining moment came when Pastor Jim's wife struggled with the pain of seeing long-time church members move on to other congregations. Pastor Jim reassured her that she was his top priority and that he was willing to leave ministry if it became too much for her. This affirmation of their marriage helped them navigate the challenges of pastoral life.

Throughout the conversation, Pastor Jim emphasizes the importance of keeping the focus on Jesus and not taking things personally when people leave or reject the church. He encourages pastors to remember that the pain they feel in those moments is a small reflection of the pain God feels when people reject Him.

When asked about his own leadership development, Pastor Jim shares his love for reading and his goal of reading 50 books per year. He also stresses the importance of staying connected to the local community by reading the hometown newspaper and praying for the needs he finds there. Pastor Jim follows a variety of Christian leaders and resources to continue growing and learning.

The interview concludes with an invitation for listeners to connect with Pastor Jim and Grace Community Church online, and to learn more about their thriving men's ministry, Fight Club.

Throughout the conversation, Pastor Jim's passion for evangelism, his heart for his community, and his commitment to his family shine through. His experiences offer valuable insights and encouragement for pastors and church leaders seeking to revitalize their congregations and reach the lost with the gospel.

In this inaugural episode of the Revitalize My Church podcast, hosts Bart Blair and Nathan Bryant discuss the importance of unity within the local church, especially as it relates to church revitalization. Drawing from biblical passages such as Psalm 133, the hosts emphasize that unity among believers leads to a spiritual anointing that enables the church to move forward in its mission.

The conversation highlights the challenges that pastors and church leaders face when attempting to lead their congregations through renewal without first building unity. The hosts stress the significance of communicating the need for change effectively, whether the pastor is new to the church or has been serving there for an extended period.

Nathan introduces the concept of "five big rocks" - a five-step process designed to help churches navigate the challenges of revitalization. The first and foundational "rock" is unity, followed by leadership, team, plan development, and plan execution. The hosts emphasize that the initial focus should be on aligning the church's vision and agreeing on the need for change rather than determining specific strategies or details.

To achieve unity, the hosts recommend a phased approach to communication, starting with the core leadership team and progressively moving outward to key stakeholders and influencers before presenting the vision to the entire congregation. This process should involve multiple meetings at each level, allowing individuals time to process the information and ask questions.

The hosts also discuss potential obstacles to unity, such as complacency, skepticism, fatigue, and the speed at which leaders attempt to implement change. They stress the importance of maintaining unity through a strong prayer process and inspiring the congregation through a compelling vision rather than simply dictating changes.

The episode concludes with a preview of the next topic in the series - leadership - and an invitation for listeners to subscribe to the podcast and visit www.revitalizemy.church for additional resources.

In this episode you’ll get to know Nathan and Bart and learn a bit about why we decided to start this podcast. After you listen to this one, jump right over to Episode 1!