Julie: Hello, my name is Julie Smithson, and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies to explore, enhance, and individualize learning for everyone. And today, my guest is a good friend from here in Barrie, Ontario, in Canada. Welcome Rob Theriault, an immersive technology lead from Georgian College. Rob has been a part of the paramedics program, and asked just most recently to start taking over a lot more of the technology at the college. Thank you so much for joining me today, Rob. I'd love to get right into it and learn about your story and your position in the college. So thank you so much for being here today.

Rob: Hi, Julie. It's a pleasure. Thank you. You want some background?

Julie: Yeah, I would love that. Why don't you do a bit of introduction?

Rob: Sure. I've been a paramedic for 36 years and teaching paramedics for the last 20. And I've always had a keen interest in educational technology. But I'm also a skeptic when it comes to technology. So I think educators would be wise to be somewhat skeptical and cautious about using technology, ensuring that it actually enhances learning or provides something new to learning. A couple of years ago, I introduced virtual reality into our paramedic program for patient simulation primarily, and that led to a conversation with our president and vice president of academic, who wanted to know where I thought virtual and augmented reality was going. So I told them that I felt that it needed some investment, that it needed some leadership. And surprisingly, they agreed, created a position and set out. So now I'm the immersive technology lead for the college. And my role is to communicate with the faculty, to engage in exploring virtual reality, engage in its potential pedagogy, and to see about integrating virtual or augmented reality into curriculum.

Julie: That's amazing, because you're really introducing this technology into multiple different courses. So maybe you can actually talk a little bit about Georgian College's highlighted programs, because I know you and I have talked a lot over the past couple of years of knowing each other, and not every course can be put into these immersive technologies. You still need that one-on-one. So maybe do you want to talk a little bit about Georgian College's programs, and then taking a look at all the programs, which ones could have this technology applied to them and the ones that couldn't?

Rob: Yeah, I'm not sure about the ones that couldn't. I'm not convinced of the fact they're any-- that would not be amenable to virtual or augmented reality. But cross that bridge when I come to it. So our architectural technology program has been using virtual reality for the last three years. They were the first at the college. And it's a remarkable experience for students to be able to construct or design buildings from within the building, and have that spatial awareness and be able to test building materials in the process simultaneously. So they were the leaders in that area. And then we introduced it in the paramedic program. And I'm hoping to get funding to continue to use virtual reality in our advanced care paramedic program this fall. We're going to be using a program that involves students resuscitating patients from cardiac arrest and with different abnormal heart rhythms. And the program we're proposing to use employs artificial intelligence and voice recognition.

So essentially, the student stands in a virtual room with -- for example -- someone collapsed on the floor. And they've got a team of paramedics around them, basically, and each paramedic has a name tag on them. And the student just simply commands the avatars to do things. So the student might say, "Aaron, can you start chest compressions? William, can you start an intravenous line? Fatima, can you give a milligram of epinephrine?" So really quite a remarkable program. And what it also does is it tests your leadership skills and your situational awareness. So one of the avatars, for example, might be doing chest compressions and start to slow down, and people fatigue doing CPR after about two minutes. So the student has to be aware that that's happening and prompt the the avatar to compress faster or deeper, or rotate them out and have someone take their place. So really excited about that program.

We're also hoping to do some research around that particular virtual reality experience. Our indigenous studies program has a course this fall called Learning in the Home. They have a small cohort of ten students who will each have headsets. The headsets will be shipped to their home probably mid-September. And what we've done is we've constructed a house, a virtual house in Altspace VR, and we're constructing a second one that can be brought in to any other platform, probably ENGAGE VR. And so what the students will do is they'll go into the home and they'll be learning language surrounding the home. So things in the house, like in the kitchen, in the bedroom, in the bathroom, in the garage. And what I've done in Altspace VR is, I've built a house with objects that each have an info button next to. So when the student clicks on the info button, it'll give them the Ojibwe word and the English word.

And there's really good research to support context based learning. So you're more likely to retain information if you're within the context, or more likely to retain information about words and verbs and sentences in the home if you're actually in a home, say in contrast with looking at a PowerPoint slide or reading a book. In the second home that we're constructing, we've contracted a company to do this. It'll have interactive objects, so students will be able to open a cupboard, open the stove, pick up a plate, pick up a bowl, and it'll give them the Ojibwe word, the English word, and it'll give them an audio file with pronunciation.

So, again, there's research to support an even higher level of retention when you're in context and you've also got interactive objects. So really excited about this. Our indigenous studies faculty are really enthusiastic about it, which excites me even more. So we're looking forward to that. But the other thing that's great about this pilot -- and we do have funding for this pilot, so we are going ahead with it -- is that not only will students be with their teacher in virtual reality and they're probably going to do about 30 minutes to 45 minutes max per week in virtual reality with their teacher. But the students can go into those platforms any time they want, day or night. And they can have group discussions, they can just socialize, they can just explore the land, if you will. So that social aspect is so important now, especially under the current pandemic, where students don't get to get together. So we're excited about that program.

Julie: That's awesome. What's the response of the students when-- well, I guess in their program itself, it would be, "you will have access to a VR headset." Is there any kind of surprised reaction that you hear from students that they are starting to use this technology in their program?

Rob: Well, they haven't heard yet, so... [laughs]

Julie: Oh, okay. [laughs] Surprise!

Rob: [laughs] Yeah. So they're going to be finding out fairly soon. And so what I will probably do is meet with them and the instructor in the first week via PC, by a desktop computer. And so they get familiar with the platforms and like initially, and then we'll ship the headset. So probably around a week four, and I'll have to do an orientation with them to the virtual space, because -- as you know -- there's a bit of a learning curve, especially if you're in a spatial network like Altspace VR or any other one, where if your avatar -- the character of the human body -- is moving but your legs are not moving, the conflict between what your eyes see and your vestibular system creates some vertigo for some people. So I have to give them a little orientation on how to how to move, and what to do if you feel unwell, and how to reduce the incidence of cyber-sickness. So I'm guessing they're going to be pretty excited. And I'm hoping that in addition to learning the language, I'm hoping that it actually translates into improved language learning and more enthusiasm for language. But I'm hoping it'll also excite students about the idea of learning in virtual reality. Maybe some of them will even go into designing virtual reality in the future.

Julie: Yeah, I would love to actually do a part two on that as a use case study with you. Maybe in a couple of months we'll jump back, and let's see what the results of that class was and the return on experience. It would be great to understand how that implementation goes. Are there any other programs at Georgian College that you want to highlight, that you've put into place, where VR and AR are now a part of the program?

Rob: Yeah, so not yet. But again, we're hoping to launch two of the pilots. One is in our biotech degree and the other is in our vet tech program. So in our biotech degree, there'll be a cohort of about-- there's a large group of students, but we're going to take small cohorts, because we really want to explore virtual reality with faculty and students on a small scale initially, just to get a sense of 1) is this a good experience? 2) Is it interactive and engaging? 3) Do the students enjoy it? 4) Does it translate into improved learning? We won't know that until we do some research, and my plan is to launch a whole series of pilots and then maybe do research in a year's time. With the exception of our paramedic program, where we're hoping to do research this fall.

But in our biotech degree, students are going to be using a product called Nano, which is a multiplayer virtual reality system that enables students to look at atoms the size of a football or basketball or larger. So there's a-- they receive kind of a spatial awareness of what atoms and molecules look like, and they're able to manipulate those molecules, they're able to pull proteins out, proteins in. And it's a product that's familiar to scientists around the world. In fact, scientists around the world are using Nano to get a better understanding of novel viruses -- like the novel coronavirus -- and develop new drugs, synthetic antibodies, new vaccines, things like that. So this is really cutting edge learning technology, I'm really excited about it.

The students are also going to be -- as far as we know -- using Inspirit VR to run chemistry labs in virtual reality. And chemistry is a great subject area for virtual reality, when you think about it. So students can do their chemistry lab safety training in there, and they can do it on their own, or with the instructor, or a combination of both. And they can also conduct experiments that might otherwise be dangerous, but not so in virtual reality. So really excited about what they're doing with biotech. In our veterinary technician program, we have a veterinarian who provides medical oversight for the program, and he's really excited about what they're going to be doing. So they're going to be doing animal dissection in virtual reality and animal anatomy. And the anatomy program we are using is an open source anatomy program from Virginia Tech. So we took the product, we sort of branded a little bit with Georgian College and enhanced the menu process, and so really excited about doing that.

So those are the pilots. But we're also looking really closely right now at hospitality, tourism, and fine arts. And the trades, the trades is a huge one, but we're looking for content and we're looking at the possibility of maybe putting out an RFP in the future, to develop some trades experiences in virtual reality that are high yield, high priority.

Julie: It sounds like there's-- every single industry is covered here. And it's so great to hear that. Everything from hospitality to medical applications to veterinary to bioscience. And you touched on chemistry and Inspirit, who-- their team is incredible, what they've put out. I've done an interview with them, as well. And it really does come back to sciences and how important sciences are in learning in general, and that critical problem solving and exploration and collaboration that happens in chemistry, to discover what's possible. And that's what we really need right now during this time of innovation. So while bioscience is already focused on chemistry, specifically, the whole premise of sciences really covers the skillsets needed to use this technology in every single industry.

Rob: Healthcare and trades are two particularly critical areas right now, especially healthcare in terms of hands-on experience, because a lot of hospitals have stopped taking medical students and nursing students temporarily, until they figure out how they're going to address the personal protective equipment issue and infection control issues. And so we're looking to do two things. One, to explore virtual reality to develop skills. And I sort of think of medical simulation in two categories. One is discrete skills, and the other is scenarios where students engage their higher order thinking and decision making. So in the discrete skills category, there are many, many, many nursing skills, paramedic skills, personal support worker skills, dental hygiene skills, for example. There could be maybe 15, 20 minute virtual reality experiences where they can repeat those skills over and over again. In fact, there may be opportunity for students to repeat those skills in virtual reality more frequently than they would otherwise in the lab, just because they're competing with other students.

And some of these programs are more expensive and some content is a little bit lacking currently. But my hope is that eventually we'll get nursing and other programs learning discrete skills, and that will translate into a sort of learning curve into better performance in the lab. And there's good evidence to support that. In fact, there was a study recently this year, done with a group of second year medical students who were randomized to standard learning of a surgical procedure, which involved looking at a video and reading some text and looking at images, versus virtual reality training. And they found that the percentage of steps done correctly in VR compared to standard training was 63 percent versus 25 percent. And the knowledge retention in the VR group was 50 percent versus 11 percent. And that's really-- it's a small group. I think there were like a cohort of 20. It's a small study, but it's really good initial proof of concept for skills development.

Julie: Absolutely.

Rob: Yeah, it's incredible. And so that's one of the areas that we need. And then I think a lot of the XR developers are really aiming at the full-out scenario type training, because not only does it target the fourth year nursing students and the third year paramedic students, but it targets working nurses and the respiratory therapist and physicians. So it's a bigger market. So it makes sense for them to go after that market. But I'm having conversations with hundreds of companies around the world on a daily basis, and telling them sort of what our needs are at colleges and universities, and hoping they come through for us.

Julie: That's great. So let's shift over to where you mentioned. You have a couple of great professors that -- like yourself -- who are forward thinking. And I guess my question is, what kind of response did you get from Georgian College teachers in general, to kind of adapt to that remote learning, especially since we were forced to it through COVID. But now, is there a challenge in converting any teachers into this remote process that is going to change their course -- literally -- and in some of these courses that are being offered?

Rob: Definitely. So the transition to remote teaching has been a real struggle for a lot of faculty, who've never taught online before. I've been teaching online asynchronously and synchronously since probably 1999, and the transition is easy for me, but for a lot of faculty it hasn't been. If I have a conversation with a faculty member who is in a program where I think virtual reality would be ideal, the response I'm getting now sometimes is "I'm just overwhelmed with what I have to do now. I can't look at this stuff now. I mean, it's exciting. I love it, but I just can't do it right now." So I have to take a little time and baby steps, and let them get used to remote teaching and then we'll introduce virtual reality. But for the most part, faculty I've spoken to are really excited about it. And so what I'm doing is saying, "Look, you're not ready for now, I totally understand. But let me get a headset into your hands and we'll meet for 30 minutes, and I'll show you what's available in your program area and see what you think. Chew it over. Think about it. Maybe winter 2021 or the next fall, we'll look at implementing it partially into the curriculum." And so most people are excited by that.

But the risk with technology in early days -- like today -- is that you'll get one teacher in one program, who's really enthusiastic about it and launches it in the program. And then the next person who teaches that same course -- maybe it's part time faculty or full time faculty -- just doesn't have any enthusiasm whatsoever for virtual reality. And it dies. That's a risk. So it's going to be lots of peaks and valleys for the next five to ten years in the XR industry at school. That's my prediction.

Julie: So one of the things that-- and I've been in some consultations with other colleges and I've used Georgian College as an example of forward thinking, and basically a sign advising them to assign an immersive lead like yourself for the school, to become a champion for the technology. Maybe before we kind of close this conversation, maybe a little bit of advice to those colleges and universities out there that have not started this process, which a lot of them have now with remote teaching. And maybe they have a champion in this school that's already thinking like you do. But from a very high level perspective, I guess, what is your advice to them to have them start to adopt this and try to implement it into an entire college or university system?

Rob: Yeah, baby steps, number one. [chuckles] Almost every college university has virtual reality in a lab of some sort. So they have some room, somewhere, where some techie people have some VR headsets, and faculty can go there and try them out. And that kind of closeted VR approach, in my opinion, never takes off. And when I first spoke with Georgian College about it, they wanted to put virtual reality in a room, in a building. And I said the only students who are going to go there are the computer students and the computer faculty. We have to get in a high traffic area, like the library. And if we're going to start to generate some interest in virtual reality, we have to get faculty exploring it and trying it. And so they gave me the go-ahead to do that, which was great. So we're doing small pilot, small student cohorts, maybe two or three programs at a time, and building up some understanding of it and exploration of it. And I think this is so important in the early days.

And just as you said, if colleges and universities can create a position like mine, someone who can help drive it and communicate with faculty and help them explore. I think that's the key. And it's important to explore for two reasons. Number one, we want to explore its pedagogical potential. "Do students actually experience enhanced learning?" And you think about how it's being used now, if -- as a student -- I could go to historical sites to learn the history of that site or what battle took place on that site or what the Roman Empire was like, while standing in the ruins of what was formerly the Roman Empire, why would you ever teach in front of a chalkboard, a whiteboard again? I mean, that kind of context and experiential learning is just phenomenal. So I think faculty need to explore it, to see its true pedagogical potential. And I think it's also thirdly critically important for faculty to communicate with developers of XR, to ensure that they have good instructional designers, who understand pedagogy and know how to make virtual reality or augmented reality a good learning experience. And I've seen some really good XR experiences that were impressive visually, but really weak pedagogically. I didn't feel it was strong for student learning. So I think those three things are important.

Julie: Well, Rob, thank you so much for joining this XR for Learning podcast. I think when it comes to education, there's so much to talk about, and there's really so much to change the way that we're learning and that we're teaching. And from my perspective, I just wanted to let you know that I really admire you.

Rob: Thank you.

Julie: Your connection and network connection, not only here in Ontario, but online and through the networks as well. And just seeing how you've managed to lead Georgian College -- well before COVID started -- implementing this, I think that's what really set your role and Georgian College apart from some of the other colleges and universities that I've seen. And I wanted to congratulate you on the hard work, because I know how much it has taken, to be able to implement this and not just from the software side, but you and I have talked several times about the challenges of hardware, which I think that could be another segment on this show. [laughs]

Rob: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Julie: But why don't-- I guess the best way if anybody wanted to reach out and maybe ask a quick question of advice to you, I guess the best place to reach you would be on LinkedIn, or if you want, you can share your email.

Rob: Sure, they can reach me on LinkedIn, for sure. That's probably the easiest way. And from there I can share my email address, it's probably easier than-- or do you keep show notes, like a website with show notes?

Julie: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Rob: Happy to share my email there. Or they can reach me on Twitter, @EdTechMedic.

Julie: That's great. Well, thank you so much, Rob, for joining us today. And all the best in this next semester of 2020, where remote learning will-- I don't think will stop from here. It's only going to improve and the learning experience is just going to get stronger and stronger. So really excited to do a part two with you one day, and learn about some of the pilot programs that you have.

Rob: Sure. Happy to do that. Thank you.

Julie: And thank you to the listeners for listening in on the XR for Learning podcast. Don't forget to follow us on social media and share among your community, and friends and family to help learn about the different ways that teaching and learning, especially at the college and university level, are taking place. So thank you very much, everybody, for joining us. And thank you, Rob, for joining me today on the XR for Learning podcast.

Julie: Hello, everyone, my name is Julie Smithson and I am your XR for Learning podcast host. I look forward to bringing you insight into changing the way that we learn and teach using XR technologies, to explore, enhance, and individualize learning for everyone. Today, my special guest is Olivia Wenzel, a student and founder of AltruTec, developing video games for adults suffering from dementia. Thank you so much, Olivia, for joining me today on this podcast.

Olivia: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Julie: It is so great to have somebody from the next generation join me. You happen to be the youngest one of my guests. So thank you so much for being here. And I'm really excited to be able to share with everyone some of the works that we've been doing, since you and I have been working together for the last year and a half on the student committee with the Virtual and Augmented Reality Association, developing and building out resources for everyone. So first of all, I'd like to give you a chance to introduce yourself and then we'll step into a little bit about some of the work that we're doing.

Olivia: Absolutely. I just graduated from high school and I'm headed to Harvard this fall. I'm interested in studying at the intersection of health and technology. So I'm thinking computer science and neuroscience, or computer science and psychology. I'm not quite sure yet. I have a startup called AltruTec. I'm really interested in improving the quality of life for older adults. But perhaps what's most relevant to today's discussion is my co-leadership of the student committee with Julie. I have the great pleasure of leading this committee of students, parents, and VR and AR industry professionals with Julie, an amazing mentor. We aim to support parents, students, and schools in adopting immersive technologies and 3D learning. But let me take a step back and answer your question about how I got involved. My interest in virtual and augmented reality is actually heavily tied to AltruTec. I have a family history of dementia, and when I first started exploring other approaches to improve people with dementia's quality of life, I ended up coming across several virtual reality applications. Long story short, they were using this immersive platform to deliver non-pharmacological therapy, such as reminiscence and music therapy. I found the mediums to be extremely promising. The early research that was coming out was so exciting. And so I ended up reaching out to some universities and companies in the area, because I really didn't have any background in technology or virtual/augmented reality, especially at the time. And I met someone in Cleveland named Reynaldo Zabala, who was involved in the VR/AR Association. And after some further correspondences, he helped me develop my ideas some more. I ended up being introduced to the committee, and soon I was heading it up. [laughs]

Julie: [laughs] Which has been a long time coming for us, to finally put a project together that we can work on. And I think it was over a good six, seven months period of time of us just talking to each other, and then figuring out what kind of mission could we work on together, that could give back to the community. And that's where we came up with the parent and student resource.

Olivia: Yes, yep.

Julie: So, yeah, we came up with a few ideas on how to do this, but this was kind of a zeroed-in project, and I think it was really necessary to be able to have this. And I remember talking to you last year about what we were going to do, and what your thoughts were about the state of knowledge of VR and AR. Let's go back about a year and thinking how we approached this. What were the reasons? Obviously we know them, but what was the state of mind back then? Can you go back to a time where you think there wasn't anything out there that was helping anybody?

Olivia: Yeah. [laughs] It's hard to think about. But I would say that we were really inspired by this belief in the power of 3D learning, which has continued to be vetted by research. And I think what motivated us most was knowing the importance of preparing young people to be change makers in this rapidly evolving, increasingly digital workplace, which is even more so digital today. And we knew that -- to speak to your question around what was actually the knowledge base -- well, yes, there were less hardware, less software, because technology progresses as time goes on. There was very little awareness among students especially and parents -- people who weren't actually working in this industry -- about the basics of the technology, what were the benefits of learning in an immersive environment, and how our industries were already being impacted by these technologies and would continue to be. So we felt it was increasingly important to even just provide a basic exposure to what the technologies are, what they offer, and how -- for students -- how their future work would be impacted by them.

Julie: And we really wanted to address the parents in these issues, to be able to have the parents share their knowledge with students, so we were kind of looking for that. What's the best communication medium? How are we going to reach as many people as we could? And from my perspective, being a parent council member at my children's school, I knew that the parents hold so much power to what their kids can learn, so much more than they actually think they do. Because how many parents actually just send their kids off to school and leave it to the systems to be able to educate their kids? And because there's this time and place right now where there's so much information, so much transformation taking place, it really is a time for exponential growth as all of this information is flooding towards us, on how to differently think when you're using technologies to be part of what you're doing, or learning, or working. And the whole concept of changing the way that we're learning and teaching, it's brand new for everyone. So we needed to start somewhere. And that's kind of how the parent and student resource was born. I can honestly say taking a look at what we've done-- and I'm going to add the fact that we did have a pandemic in the middle of this. There was a little bit of lull time about six months ago, where there was a few months where we weren't quite-- we didn't have our stuff together yet. But I believe that COVID accelerated our purpose. So I think you and I together, we were like, "Yes, we definitely need to pull these resources together." It was just the two of us at the time. And I'm referring back to the parent and student resources. And maybe you want to talk a little bit about how we kicked off issue one and what the following issues are going to look like, and maybe give an overview of the package of resources that we're producing at this time.

Olivia: Definitely. So overall -- as Julie mentioned -- this is a literary resource that introduces the bare bones, the basics of virtual reality, augmented reality, and 3D learning. We've covered a fairly diverse range of topics within those fields and have several regular sections. To answer your question around issue one, we kicked it off with sort of a glossary of sorts, of what we call tech terms. And so we have the very, very basics. What I just mentioned, virtual reality, augmented reality, head-mounted display, et cetera. We go into use cases of virtual and augmented reality training in remote collaboration. Eventually in future issues in the classroom, we offer take-away resources, so that parents and students -- once through those use cases -- they start to really digest and understand why it's so pressing that they and their students understand these technologies and take hold of them. We give them those take-away resources, they can start experimenting -- or just simply experiencing and better understanding -- 3D VR/AR and how those can be used in learning at home. We mentioned applications like AR Maker, which helps you bring sketches and photos to a lively 3D format. And I'm getting a little ahead of your question [chuckles] but perhaps my favorite section, what we introduced in issue four -- we can back out a little bit too, perhaps I could talk about that later -- is tackling this issue that now with COVID, times often feel monotonous and uninspiring, quite simply. It's very easy -- as Julie and I have talked about a number of times -- to spend hours behind the phone, or another screen, mindlessly scrolling through social media feeds. And we really want to fill young people with a sense of purpose and get them curious and innovating again. I won't go too far ahead of myself on the Curiosity Project, as we wanted to talk about issue one. But it's very exciting work. It definitely fills me with a sense of purpose. And I hope that we can get several other students across the globe curious again.

Julie: Yeah, I think the fact that we moved to this curiosity piece in issue four, I kind of wish we had done it in one. But we had to lay the foundation of reasons why parents and students need to know this information. And just so you know, if it's-- it's not just for parents, it's not just for students, it's for everyone. It's for teachers and trainers, anybody that's just doesn't even know anything about this technology. And I think we did a really good job in explaining how VR and AR is transforming the workplace so that the kids, the students can prepare for what work is going to be like when they graduate school. And parents don't even know this, because it's not like it was when they went to school and when they got out, and they got a job that was paying a full time employment salary. Where today, entrepreneurship is a little bit more of the foundation of the gig economy. So things have changed quite a bit, especially introducing all of these different technologies into every single company that's out there, and providing those examples of how Wal-Mart's using it for training, or Intel's dealing with it, electrical safety training. This is really important to understand that even trades jobs are going to be impacted by this technology. And in what ways and how to understand everything from the technology itself, being inside the technology and then how it applies, and how to use it in the workforce, how to use all the tools around it to be creative and to activate. So preparing the parent and understanding-- for them to understand how to prepare their child for the future of work was kind of the mission from the beginning. And that starts right on issue number one. And I like the fact that we've stayed with the same type of categories, always reviewing the glossary terms, too, and with different animated gifs, or designs, or things like that, just to keep engaging the reader and introducing over and over again the different ways this technology is going to be used.

Olivia: We're currently-- we've published issues one through four, and we're currently finishing up issue five, and soon issue six. So if you're interested in reading them, we're publishing all on Medium right now, in a publication called the VR and AR Parent and Student Resource. And once this eight issue spread is finished, we'll send them out in other channels. It's a very powerful package. But maybe do we want to return back to the Curiosity Project?

Julie: Absolutely. Yeah.

Olivia: So I talked briefly about this previously, but we discussed the importance of curiosity. I won't go into too much detail now because, again, you could read more about it in the resources, which you definitely should, and you should share them. But studies have shown that curiosity leads to benefits such as better team performance, more creative solutions, fewer decision making errors, and the list goes on. So after that introduction to curiosity, and we do build on that some more in future issues, but we dive into this Curiosity Project. So each issue in our eight issue spread, starting with issue four, walks the reader through a what we call a phase of developing a 3D project in the MetaVRse engine. And the prompt, which we feel is very timely and very relatable, is what concept is difficult to learn in school, and how could it be improved with 3D? And so we walk them through reviewing this prompt, unpacking it, conducting research -- whether it's on the Internet and books, or really what we want is going out and talking to people -- defining their problem in their audience, the ideation, giving them different ideas for how to go about ideation, seeking feedback, planning a prototype. In issue five we dive really in-depth into specific considerations for wire framing and an immersive space. And then an upcoming issue is what we start to show the students -- and parents and anyone else who wants to read -- how they can actually bring these ideas that they're producing to life in the MetaVRse Engine. We have we have a new section that introduces a mini-challenge that can keep building those skills while working toward this cumulative MetaVRse engine Curiosity Project. And I absolutely love it. I agree with Julie, I wish we would have started in issue one. But as she said, it is really important that we build that baseline knowledge first, before perhaps we dive right into the creation process.

Julie: Well, it's been an incredible journey, because just only-- I think it was about two months ago, I was connected with somebody from the Massachusetts Science Fair. The executive director, Helen Rosenfeld, reached out to me and asked if her students can be a part of our committee and learn from us. And that was-- I think, for you and I, it was great to be able to have more students join in, and enthusiastic students that wanted to participate, wanted to contribute. And I think the realization for you and I was bringing our knowledge back to home base again and starting fresh, because realizing that even students today still need to start at issue one and learn about the different technologies right from the beginning. And that knowledge base is still not mainstream out there. And there's still a lot of people that need to catch up with regards to the applications of the technology and how they can be used. So it was a little bit of an eye opener, but already we're starting to see the acceleration. Students in my mind are -- well, in everybody's mind, I think -- they're so passionate and interested and want to be engaged, that these students that have joined us now are contributing and opening our eyes into different ways of trying to share out the Curiosity Project. So maybe share a little bit of your experience now, dealing with these students who are looking to contribute and wanting to contribute towards sharing their information and their experience.

Olivia: I think you really hit it on the nail, having different perspectives. We are lucky to have a fairly actually diverse knowledge range in our committee. Some people were pretty much brand new to the technology. Some had some limited exposure. Some had some experience tinkering in different engines. And as you said, they were really able to explore those first few issues, and point out some areas where perhaps we were a little too complicated in our language or where we weren't super clear. I could give a basic example about who specifically are we targeting. One of the students made a great point that perhaps for these particular issues, a younger student below grade six may not totally understand just the way we had written it. So we were able to add a target audience to our previous and future issues. But the major thing is providing feedback on what we've already written and helping us better understand how we can be more approachable to a broader audience and really affect change, and then moving forward how we can actually keep people more engaged. So I mentioned that mini-challenge section. That was the idea of one of our amazing students on the committee. How do we actually get people working and applying what they're learning in our resource to their real world? So it's been an absolute pleasure to work with them and I'm so excited to have them on the committee.

Julie: And I would like to just remind people that we're dealing with 16, 17, 18 year olds, high school students who are really interested in this technology and want to understand more. So building up this Curiosity Project, I'm certainly interested to see how it unfolds, both from just a design perspective in using-- I know that they were working with Tinkercad, I know that the MetaVRse 3D Engine was also being used. But encouraging any of these students to start playing with the tools, the creator tools that are out there, to start learning and working with three dimensions and spatial presence is so important right now at this stage of learning about XR technologies, because we need to build in 3D. We need to be present in the spatial experience, and being able to understand that is first and foremost. So it's great to have all of these students on board now and giving us their feedback. Olivia, thank you so much for your contributions, your leadership. And I want to say just the leadership that I've witnessed from you over the last year and a half has been incredible, to be able to pull these resources together. And now leading these students is really something that I think you should be proud of. I certainly am proud of you. So thank you very much. I'd love to just get a take on what does this fall look like for you, going back to school? It's a little bit different, obviously, than where you left off in the fall and now you're going to a new school. What do you think would be the best advice for students going back into the fall like yourself, into school, and obviously taking it upon themselves to learn more about this technology, so maybe you can share a little bit of thoughts there?

Olivia: First of all, thank you so much for your compliments about the leadership. I could not have done it -- and cannot do it -- without your mentorship. So-- and of course, all of the students in the committee who are working hard, generating ideas, writing content for the issues, and the other amazing mentors we have on our team. So this fall, I'm headed to Harvard, as I mentioned before. While I will be on campus, all of my classes are online, so I'll be learning completely remotely. I'm excited to start this new chapter of my life, but I am definitely concerned -- as are, I think, most students -- about what learning will look like. I'm optimistic, because I know teachers will be a little bit more prepared, for sure. And I know my professors and I'm sure all of them are working extremely hard to deliver as a seamless of a learning experience as they can. But I would say that my major concerns lie in our ability to really work collaboratively and foster relationships, to meet and work with people that will push you in terms of how you think and your preconceived notions about the world. I do think that immersive technologies -- as we discuss in our issues -- offer a really unique opportunity for us to build those relationships and maintain them and collaborate. We talk about a few collaborative applications in our issues that could potentially be used. But knowing the state of the platforms that will be using going in, I'm pretty sure that those won't be employed for the most part in the classroom setting. So I'll have to rest with that concern for now, I suppose.

Julie: School is certainly going to change in keeping us away from those classrooms, in some cases. But working together with others and collaborating especially with other students, I think is a very inspiring thing. And if more schools can start to take a look at the collaborative nature of working together and learning together, it certainly sets apart from being so alone -- taking school and taking courses -- and being able to learn together, I think is one of the greatest things that we can do right now, because there's so much information to take on. Using these XR platforms to meet and collaborate is going to only enhance that communication. So I, like you, look forward to the day when some of these things can be implemented into the classroom. But until then, we come back to the parents, we come back to family, and we come back to the students actually going to be looking for these resources to help them learn. And that's the work that you and I have been doing. So I'm really excited to be able to release these parent and student issues. And maybe, Olivia, do you want to close this off with a little bit of a learning lesson, whether it's for a student, or a parent, or a teacher, anybody out there? Is there some advice that you would like to share with everyone?

Olivia: Oh, sure. [laughs] So I would say the best piece of advice I've ever been given is to words: ask questions. And I'll expand on that a little bit. This gets back to what we talk about with curiosity. If you ask questions about anything and everything that sparks your curiosity, anything that inspires you, that interests you, go talk to your parents. Go talk to your teachers. Go talk to your sister, your brother, your friends, your neighbors. Reach out to an industry professional in that field. Type it in on Google. When you ask questions about anything that sparks your curiosity, you will uncover a world of possibilities and opportunities. And I think that's the most powerful thing that you can do, is to just ask questions about anything that sparks your interest. Never be afraid to ask a question.

Julie: Also, recap on the parent and student resources issues, one through four are now available, and we're going to put those in the link to the podcast so everybody can have access to them. I think the message that we also want is for everyone to share these resources within your communities, your organizations, schools, parent councils. Students can take them into their student councils to help bridge that knowledge gap of understanding how immersive technologies will be applied to business and education. And I would also, Olivia, like to invite you back into part two of this podcast. And what I'd like to do is do a recap of the Curiosity Project and we'll cover off issues five through eight, which are expected to hopefully in the next couple of weeks -- we're kind of pushing our time a little bit -- but over the next couple of weeks, we'll close off with the rest of those. And I'd love to invite you back and hopefully you can find some time in your busy schedule to do another recording with me. So thank you so much for being on our podcast today, and continue the work that you're doing. It's so great for you to be a part of this community, and I've enjoyed mentoring you. My message to all of those that are listening out there is make sure you spend some time mentoring the next generation. Learn together and help each other during this time of exponential growth, where there's so much to know, there's so much to learn, so much to adjust to, and there's a lot of change happening right now. Thank you, Olivia, for being here with me today.

Olivia: Thank you for having me, for being my mentor and for inviting me for part two. I can't wait to record it.