You can find her at https://www.marinamcadam.com/ and her Facebook group is here.

Transcript

Today we are talking to Andrea. Andrea is an IT Project Manager. And we are looking forward to chatting with her about her job. Hi Andrea, welcome.

00:14

Hello. Good morning. How are you guys?

00:15

Good morning, we’re doing great.

00:17

Good. Awesome, I’m excited to be here. Virtually.

00:21

Thank you, us too yeah. Alright, so Andrea tell us what an IT project manager does and what kind of what a day looks like for you.

00:30

OK sure, so an IT project manager, kind of in the generic sense, would help all the different technical teams and the business teams get on the same page about what we’re trying to do, what the goals are, and then work with each person and group to figure out the tasks. And then the project manager will literally put them all in order and figure out what has to happen in a certain order. And then the important thing is to figure out the super critical things that can’t be late, or the whole project’s in danger,

01:06

OK.

01:06

so that’s that’s called the critical path. So

01:09

Oh

01:09

it’s basically organizing a whole bunch of people and helping them not be stressed about what we’re trying to get done, ’cause we you know, breaking it down into bite size pieces.

01:19

OK, so you take the stress so everybody else can

01:25

do their part, right?

01:27

It doesn’t stress me out though

01:29

No?

01:29

because I like making order out of chaos

01:33

Yes.

01:33

so. So I I love it and I and I like UM when people feel relieved because now everybody is on the same page, so they count on me to bring up difficult topics. And you know, force conversations and get us to get to a common understanding so people

01:54

Yeah.

01:54

will tell me things outside of the meeting. And then I’m the one that brings it up and makes us get to a solution so.

02:01

That’s interesting, I like that. That’s awesome. What kind of projects do you guys work on?

02:08

Oh gosh, uhm. Well, I would say that I’m a project management generalist,

02:15

OK.

02:15

so any widget I could manage a project, so anything from like building a house to, like moving all of those things. But for work lately we’ve done some pretty big things like, we did we had to replace 24,000 computers for the Windows 7 to 10 migration.

02:38

Oh wow.

02:40

And so, uhm. I’m a senior program manager. Is my official title, so it’s a little bit different than a regular project manager because I’ve been doing this for 20 years. I actually design a whole system of communication and process

02:57

i

02:57

flow so that project was originally estimated to take two years and then I got involved and I helped us figure out ways to get it done in less than a year.

03:08

Wow fabulous.

03:09

So it’s basically that big systems thinking and seeing way more data points than most people can see.

03:17

Yeah.

03:17

And then my brain organizes it and I figure out how to communicate it and we do it. So that’s one example. Also, did we moved to a new building so I didn’t manage the construction part, but I helped everybody figure out the people moving part.

03:33

OK.

03:33

So like it was consolidating three buildings into one building. So it’s

03:37

Wow.

03:38

like this giant word problem right?

03:39

Yeah.

03:39

Of like, OK, you got to move these people before you can take their cubes down and move the cubes and set them up. And so this giant logic puzzle

03:49

Yeah.

03:49

of you know, like the cabbage in the wolf and the sheep kind of thing so

03:53

I love it, yeah. That sounds like a fun job.

03:58

Yeah, I think it is yeah.

04:00

I can see why I’ve been doing it for 20 years.

04:02

Yeah.

04:03

So is every project similar? Like you said, there are critical points. Is every project have the same critical points? Or do you have to redesign it every time you have a new project?

04:13

So there’s a I would say, kind of like a scaffolding that is the same for all projects. And then you’re basically organizing everything around

04:24

i

04:24

that scaffolding so like. There’s always a initiate phase where you’re talking about like should we even spend energy working on this? Is it going to bring us value? You know? So you have to figure that out. So there’s a framework for figuring that out. And then there’s a planning phase where you actually write a charter.

04:44

i

04:45

Which is, you know, a project document. But it’s basically a contract, like ship captains used to have a contract with the owner of the ship, so it’s a similar thing where you’re basically saying, like hey executives. This is what we think you want us to do. If we do this, will that be successful?

Oh, OK.

05:05

So that’s the planning phase and then when you get through that, that’s when you literally start, you know when when we weren’t virtual, we would be in a big room and literally have like 1000 post-its on the wall

05:16

haha

05:16

and move stuff for you know like oh that has to happen first. Or you know, oh we need a contractor for this bit. And then I would take that whole wall and turn it into a project plan which kind of looks like Excel. Uhm?

05:30

OK.

05:31

But the tasks all have relationships, so.

05:36

Is

05:36

Uhm,

05:36

it more? Sorry,

05:37

go ahead.

05:37

I was wondering, is it more enjoyable setting it up from the beginning when it’s kind of messy and organizing it? Or is it just as exciting once you move through the project and you start to complete things?

05:52

Uhm, for me it’s both. As long as I’m involved in the planning. Like

05:58

OK.

05:58

if somebody gave me something that they had already planned, I’m going to have to redo it most of the time because. I’m going to see efficiencies that they didn’t. I mean, that’s one of my superpowers as I can look and see. Oh, you know, like hey, that’s great, but if we had this you know it would save this many hours and yet there’s always a balance between, like when I have what I think we should do. But then I have to remind myself that it’s going to be a better product, a better project if I bring everybody else in because somebody always has an idea that I didn’t think of.

06:31

True.

06:32

But I have to remind myself of that

06:33

Yeah,

06:34

like.

06:34

OK.

06:36

Left to my own devices, I would just go figure it out and tell everybody what to do. But like I’ve learned that I don’t want to hurt a relation- a future working relationship by making someone not feel heard.

06:52

Of

06:52

’cause

06:52

course.

06:52

like I gotta, it’s a long term relationship, right? So I don’t want to win today and then them not feel good about working with me later.

06:59

Yeah, there’s a diplomacy to every project, I’m sure as well as I don’t know, you know, after you’ve done it awhile, I guess you don’t have to wear a rubber band and snap it. You just kind of go with the flow and he said, OK, I know know to deal how to deal.

07:12

yeah. And I’ve been with the same place for 15 years now so like I have what you call reputation collateral right? So like. You know, if I have a time when

07:22

i

07:22

I’m being more direct or terse, I think I have this whole background of good experiences for people, so they’ll understand, like. It’s just important to get to the point right now, and we don’t always have time for. You know how are everyones cats and kids and.

07:39

Niceties. Yep.

07:40

Yep.

07:42

Totally get that.

07:44

The yeah useful concept for me is the subject matter expert. A SME is

07:49

Yeah.

07:49

what we call that, and knowing that like it’s freeing for me because I don’t have to understand everything about what they know. They’re going to tell me what what I need to know from their stuff. I don’t have to take on, and I used to do that. I used to take on where like I needed to know everybody’s parts so well that I could figure out a plan. And then now it’s more. You know what I mean? I realized

08:14

Yeah.

08:14

that if I take all that on then it’s all on my shoulders.

08:18

Yeah, ah.

08:19

But if I trust them to tell me what they think we need to do. Then it’s their responsibility

08:26

Yeah.

08:26

if that part doesn’t work. Right?

08:28

Well.

08:28

So that’s been a big lesson.

08:30

Does it get less than you’re like when you took it all on yourself? Did it get more in your way? As well, like

08:37

Well.

08:38

I mean or is it just a more stressful that way?

08:41

It’s stressful, but it was also bad for the project,

08:44

Sure.

08:44

and so like when I’m the bottleneck and I’m having to make the decision so that that’s when I learned that. And that was a new skill I picked up is, you know, I ask the difficult question. And then I’m I shut up and I leave some space. And you know people will feel uncomfortable silent, so like they would start talking and figure it out. But if I jump in and make a decision for somebody’s area then, there you know, that could come back and bite me.

09:12

Sure.

09:12

So I would, you know,

09:13

You

09:13

restate

09:14

know ’cause 

09:14

you know I I hear you saying that we could make this work this way did I get that right? So I use a lot of scripts. There are a lot of things

09:22

yeah,

09:22

that I

09:22

yeah.

09:22

say exactly the same way every time and not only is it easier for me, but I think then people know what to expect when they work with me. They know if we’re having a difficult topic, I’m going to restate it, try and get us all on the same page. And then I’m going to get everybody to say they agree. So

09:40

Ah.

09:41

you know, I’ll say alright, checking for consensus and I’m like, you know, not is this the perfect solution or what we would do if we had $1,000,000. But can you live with this? And then when we leave the room, can you get behind it?

09:54

Yeah.

09:55

You know, I don’t want to hear in two days that you didn’t agree.

09:58

Yeah.

09:59

You know you have to tell me now so we can have a good workable solution so.

10:03

That’s awesome. Do you have the same team every time? Or do you pick and choose people based on budget constraints or subject matter pieces?

10:19

So there. There are every company has a different way to organize it. You know sometimes people are permanently assigned to the project manager and that’s their boss for the project and where I work right now they don’t do it that way. It’s more collaborative and then they’re, they’re frequent flyers, right? Like there

10:39

haha

10:39

are people that like on this flavor of project always work with this person for payroll or whatever, so that makes it easier because then the next time we work together you know that person trusts me. To listen when they say there’s an issue and to help them get it resolved. So they’re more likely to listen to me because I’ve listened to them.

11:01

That’s awesome,

11:03

I mean like I said, if it was up to me, I would just go plan the whole thing so. It goes against my nature to

11:10

But

11:10

need to work on the relationship part of things, but I lucked

11:15

but

11:16

out in one of my special interest was business relationships and I just basically. Learned how to have a system for that and script it because it didn’t come naturally to me at all.

11:29

It’s a good. I mean, it’s a good lesson and it’s an important thing to learn along the way I imagine.

11:34

Yep, Yep.

11:36

I can see how that’s helpful. Having been in positions where I didn’t do that and it was needed.

11:44

Yeah, well like, I think so now knowing that I’m autistic makes a big difference because I always thought that this was like a skill deficit and that if I could

11:55

i

11:55

keep working, I would eventually grow past it. But now I’m like it’s just a skilled difference and I just need to learn to translate better,

12:06

I like

12:06

you

12:06

that.

12:06

know and say like hey, this is difficult for me, you know, like when we have the whole plane figured out and you give me a new resource, who has different ideas and wants to change things, I find that incredibly stressful because we already have a plan and so you need to realize that now this means we’re replanning everything.

12:24

Yeah.

12:24

You know, so it’s been super helpful to know that. My brain is just working differently so.

12:32

Absolutely, that’s awesome.

12:34

So can you tell us some of the things that you enjoy about your job and some of the things that you don’t enjoy about your job?

12:42

I like that I’m always getting something different to do. It’s a new problem to solve, so there are some companies that have project managers and you just install the same product like 200 times. I don’t think I could do that.

12:56

Yeah.

12:57

Once things are cleaned up and working well, I get really bored and I have trouble paying attention. So how we’ve kind of adapted to that is I’ll we call what I do, designing the project and

13:10

OK.

13:10

then once it gets all smoothed out and we pilot it, somebody else takes it and goes and does it the you know dozens of times.

13:18

OK.

13:19

So I like that if I couldn’t do that and I had to do the same thing 100 times, I would really dislike that for

13:27

I

13:27

sure.

13:27

find that a Thora we were having this conversation the other day that I said something like, you know, when I get bored, i tend to make up problems, you know, and I wonder if you would just. You’re going to say you do too.

13:42

Well, when there’s space, I will figure out other things to make better.

13:47

OK right yeah.

13:49

You know so. I mean kind of like when we’re when you first get started. There’s a whole layer of problems that are obvious on the surface, and then you fix those. And then there’s like a whole another strata of issues, right? And

14:02

Right?

14:02

so. Yeah,

14:04

It’s

14:04

I mean

14:05

never

14:05

you know it’s

14:05

really complete.

14:06

you could go Infinity on the improvements, so that’s a struggle for me too, as like what? What’s good enough ’cause we don’t have time for perfect

14:15

Yeah.

14:15

and sometimes for me to let it go before it’s perfect. Is is a dislike of mine too.

14:21

Yeah, I definitely understand that.

14:24

I was going to say another dislike another thing that’s hard for me is small talk at work so.

14:32

But the flip side of that is that’s why people really like my meetings because there’s an agenda we talk about this stuff and then we get done. And we everybody goes and does whatever else they need to do.

14:45

But I do notice that. It is easier for me to do small talk with people I’ve known for a long time.

14:53

So how did you end up getting involved in the first place? In, in your field, is it something you fell into? Is it something you sought out? Got training for?

It’s pretty hilarious because

15:06

OK.

15:06

I was accidentally doing it for years and didn’t know there was a name for it.

15:11

Really,

15:11

So

15:11

huh?

15:12

yeah, I majored in. This is the over achiever autistic. I majored in humanities with a focus on medieval and Renaissance European history. And English literature. And then I minored in anthropology and Latin.

15:30

Oh is that

15:30

And

15:30

all?

15:30

that was undergrad, right? So then I did a ridiculously complicated- I made my senior project harder than it needed to be. Literally, and I completely fried myself. I it

15:45

Oh

15:45

was the

15:45

no.

15:45

first time I think I got to burnout,

15:47

Really.

15:48

but I didn’t know that’s what it was. So like I had a full ride for grad school and stuff and I just could not do it. I couldn’t do it so I decided not to go. And then I did also figure out though, I love reading and I love history and I don’t think I want to do that for work because I love it so much that I just want to do it because I enjoy it, right?

16:10

Yeah.

16:10

Like I want it separate from what I do for money.

16:12

Was that the lesson from the burnout? Or is that something you just realized separately?

16:16

That was the that was the meaning I ascribed to the burnout,

16:20

Very good,

16:20

I

16:20

OK?

16:20

guess, yeah yeah.

16:22

Nice, I like

16:22

And

16:23

how you

16:23

so

16:23

said

16:23

then.

16:23

that. By the way, yeah.

16:25

Yeah.

16:25

That’s an important distinction.

16:27

OK, OK. So then like it was hard for me to find a job big shocker, right? Because

16:34

yeah

16:34

I had this like history in English degree. So like I ended up, you know, having to take like I was a bank teller and I worked at a hotel front desk and then I worked it at a rental car agency.

16:48

yeah 

16:48

And then ended up in like the kind of claims support department, so that was my first time of process improvement is for that company. They wanted us to build out this new call center. So basically like instead of each car rental branch calling State Farm and saying you know so and so’s car is going to take two more weeks to fix. Do you approve the rental? There’s going to be a central call center that would make all those calls to be more efficient, right? So I actually got to help design what that looked like and help write procedures and stuff. I’ve never. I’ve never done that before and I lovIed it.

17:26

I bet. Yes.

17:27

So then I kind of moved sideways and got a job at a software company organizing training. So there would be like customers, bought the product and they got a certain amount of free training. So I needed to schedule that. But we also had to keep our training liability low,

17:45

OK.

17:45

right? So if we owe 100 people three classes and we have to travel for that? And we don’t remind them and push them taking it, right, then we have this big money spent that’s just sitting out there.

17:58

Yeah.

17:58

Does that make sense? Anyway.

17:59

Yeah, like

18:00

So

18:00

just like

18:00

so.

18:00

a backlog of

18:02

Exactly

18:02

yeah.

18:02

so with that job I made all kinds of innovations. I mean, it was an entry level job at the software company and I- I’ll date myself. When I started there, there was no email at work.

18:13

Oh wow.

18:14

So I figured out they were mailing confirmation letters for training and I can and I’m at pitched hey like hey we can use the fax machine instead, so we switched to that and then we got email later and then we switched from fax to email. So I was able to show that we would save money by not doing the mailing. Now selfishly speaking, it was irritating to me to do it because I know there were better ways to do it that weren’t so much work.

18:41

Yeah, yeah.

18:42

And so that kind of like, starting to notice that stuff that’s annoying because it seems like, there’s gotta be a better way.

18:50

Yeah.

18:51

That was my path. At that company. I would fix all the process issues in the area. And then I would get bored and I would go move to another department. So I got promoted 7 times

19:03

Oh

19:03

with that

19:03

wow.

19:03

company. And.

19:05

That’s awesome.

19:06

Yeah, one of my favorites was they had this Salesforce application that they built in house. And it was a complete failure. The sales people hated it.

19:18

Really.

19:18

Hated it, yeah. And then so for some reason the marketing VP was like look Andrea, can you go try to help them figure this out? Because they wanted to be able to see how many contacts the sales people were making. And you know how many contacts does it take to get a sale? Is this collateral useful or should we stop mailing out this hundred page manual, you know? So when I went into my first meeting with the sales people, they made me a T shirt that had a bullseye on the front of it. ’cause that’s how mad they were

19:49

Wow.

19:49

and how bad the application was. So like that was my first time of like go interview. All the people and balance what everybody needs and come up with something that’s a carrot for everybody.

OK.

20:03

So I had to translate what the business needed the marketing folks needed, translate that to what the sales people wanted and were willing to do. And then I had to. Translate business to geek to get the developers to do it, you know. So it was awesome and it was a huge success. ’cause it made a lot of things easier, but I could see those patterns right, so

20:27

Yeah.

20:27

like they had this one system where you would go request. You know brochures to be mailed to a customer and the sales people were having to put in the address and the name and pick what they wanted. And there was another place where you had to go log your calls. There’s another place where you requested RFP and I was able to see how to bring all that together so they had like one home page and they could enter the address one time and they you know anyway. So just that ability to see. All of the parts of something and figure out what does a simpler, better, more efficient way look like?

21:03

Yeah.

21:03

And then sell it.

21:06

Nice,

21:06

To people so

21:07

that’s awesome.

21:07

yeah.

21:08

It sounds like a lot of a lot of entrepreneurs. You see the problem, you fix it, you put it all together. I love- hear that a lot for those types of people who’ve started. These huge major companies that we use all the time. That’s cool.

21:23

From there the company got bought and I wanted to make sure I got kept on so I actually figured out a way to fly to California to do some training and ask for a job

21:34

Nice.

21:34

from the new sales person. So I’d been trying to get into sales. So anyway I did that and I was selling software. Not my favorite thing. And then they needed a Salesforce tool so I helped them build that. It was very difficult for me because they went to something that was not as good as what we had built.

21:54

OK.

21:55

Because they wanted to use as built platform, right? They wanted to use like I think it was literally Salesforce, but it didn’t do all the stuff that the one we built custom would do, and that was a huge problem for me. Like I really I was constantly having to talk myself down and be like look, you’re going to get paid. It doesn’t matter if you agree this is what you have to do.

22:18

That is a hard one.

22:19

It was very hard, but once I realized that I would just kind of give myself that little pep talk every day,

22:25

Yeah, Oh yeah, I’m getting paid. I know that one.

22:29

So my boss at that time she was like, well, are you gonna get certified? And I was like what are you talking about? And she said, oh as a project manager and I’m like as a what

22:41

i

22:41

like I had never heard of it. I didn’t know that’s what I was doing. And then a couple months after that the company started laying people off and after a couple rounds of layoffs I got laid off. But I knew it was coming

22:54

Yeah.

22:55

’cause we saw the earlier. And it was a pretty decent severance so I just decided to take off a year and I in my like my sister lived with me. My overhead. No, but anyway, I basically then went and took all the Microsoft Office classes I could. I went and took a bunch of project management classes, ’cause like I knew I had the skill set,

23:16

Yeah.

23:17

but I needed to know the lingo and all the tools and everything.

23:20

And people like to see those things listed, you know. Yeah. They want to see your name, PMP. Right.

23:28

Exactly, So I started out. I got a job at a big healthcare company and then from there I’ve been in healthcare IT since that. So that’s how I got there. It’s just basically the job followed the skills, I think.

23:41

That’s actually that’s perfect. That’s makes it something you get to enjoy more that way. Awesome.

23:50

That was a long answer.

23:51

No, no, we love it. It’s fantastic. Yeah, we really do. I think people are interested to hear hear the details. I mean I know I am and everybody is exactly like me so.

24:04

Nice.

24:06

Yeah, I need you all to teach me that pep talk thing.

24:12

Oh, the self pep talk.

24:13

Yes, that’s OK. It’s OK, I’m still getting paid. I don’t have to fight every battle I give

24:20

I

24:20

you

24:20

literally

24:20

that pep talk

24:21

had

24:21

also.

24:21

it on an index card taped to my monitor.

24:25

That’s great.

24:25

Literally. Because I guess I caught on early in life, that repetition is the mother of learning, right? So I just anything that I’m having trouble with. I just look at it all the time and make myself. It will eventually sink in like 600 repetitions,

24:41

Yeah.

24:42

right? OK?

24:43

I think your learning patterns are similar to mine, or at least the way we end up teaching ourselves things that we know we need. Like logistically,

24:52

yeah,

24:52

no, we need to accomplish, but are difficult. We set things

24:56

yeah.

24:57

up in our place so that we can actually do what we need to do.

25:00

yeah?

25:00

That’s kind of cool.

25:03

So let’s talk a little bit about how autism impacts you at work, right? We know sometimes it’s helpful for some of the ways that our brain works differently than other people, but sometimes it hinders us a little bit too. So let’s first talk about the obstacles. How autism gets in your way at work. What does that look like for you?

25:26

On projects I think I can avoid the level of small talk. That’s the little day-to-day relationship things that neurotypicals expect, but managing people was super hard for me. I’m not saying I couldn’t do it. I actually

25:47

oh

25:47

just took a lateral move in January to not managing people. So my company has a management track and a technical track and I just moved over

25:57

OK,

25:57

because

25:58

OK.

25:58

I was so exhausted by

26:03

dealing with employees.

26:05

Sure.

26:05

And I’m not good at mentoring. Like if you say, mentor this person like I don’t know what to do with them. I need a structure or script for that and so I think one of my biggest obstacles was while I was managing people. My boss would say, well oh, you just need to

26:20

i

26:21

figure out how to get people to feel more connected to you. And

26:26

Oh

26:26

I’m like

26:26

is

26:26

what

26:26

that all

26:26

does

26:26

I have

26:26

that

26:27

to do?

26:27

look like right? What does

26:28

Yeah.

26:28

that look like? he would say I don’t know what that looks like right?

26:32

So

26:32

That

26:32

you’re good

26:32

was

26:32

at mentoring.

26:33

before, right? I was exactly that was before I was diagnosed so I kind of didn’t know why that’s so difficult for me

26:41

Makes

26:41

but

26:41

sense.

26:41

I feel like if I had known I could have just been like look I am listening to you. This is hard for me, but then you know people would see that that’s just a difference. It’s not a deficit, right?

26:52

Sure,

26:53

And

26:53

yeah.

26:54

so that was hard, so that’s gotten easier since I made that lateral move.

26:57

Nice.

26:58

But what I’m the more I learn about autism, the more I realize I have a whole bunch of other obstacles that I didn’t even realize were obstacles. I didn’t realize other people couldn’t hear electricity, right? So

27:10

Yeah.

27:10

now I’m like, OK? Earbuds ear defenders at work. When we get back in the building, that’s going to be huge and then realizing. Why I get so tense when I have to travel like I have to have my packing list and I have my directions

27:27

Ah.

27:27

printed out in case

27:28

Yes.

27:28

my phone dies and you know, so those are obstacles I would say right now.

27:37

One of my biggest obstacles is my. Hang on a second, let me pause and figure out to say this

27:42

Yeah

27:47

There we go. This is hilarious that I was having trouble thinking of this one because it’s autistic inertia.

27:55

Awesome.

27:56

So I never realized why I just couldn’t seem to get going on some days and I didn’t know how to get out of it and

28:05

i

28:05

so I actually wrote up one of my little index cards. It’s like things to do when you’re having a tough day. That’s when I like would clean out old email. Rearrange my desktop so I think A) it was super important for me to figure out some little things I could do when I feel like that. But B) to realize what the heck it is

28:25

Yes.

28:25

and learn tricks. So even like this week I just learned the trick of just fill your brain up with something different. I don’t intend to listen to an audiobook all day because I don’t think I could concentrate. But to listen to an audiobook to get myself kick started, you know, and start doing the task while I’m distracted by the the audio book so. Anyway, I’m beginning as I learn more. I’m learning about the obstacles and I’m getting a. Ideas of what tactics I can use to avoid them, but

28:57

Yeah.

28:57

I’m also feeling empowered that when we get back in the office there are accommodations I’m going to ask for that I didn’t know I needed. I need natural light. I’d like them to move me to an office with natural light.

29:09

Nice.

29:11

But they’ve been super supportive about the accommodations I have for my sleep disorders, like I actually have a couch in my office. And

29:18

Awesome.

29:18

I have specific permission to nap at lunch because there was a policy that you could be fired for sleeping at work. So

29:26

Oh

29:26

I was like OK, I want it in writing.

29:28

yeah, nice.

29:30

That I can take a nap. So I would say those are my biggest obstacles because we already talked about like the once. I have a plan, it’s super stressful for them to throw another person into the mix that

29:41

Sure.

29:42

has role power to change what we’re doing. ’cause it feels like I wasted my time before that.

29:49

Yeah. That’s.

29:51

I think that’s it for a big obstacle.

29:54

That’s good, no, it’s great. It was interesting. We were talking about you, called it autistic inertia and it’s. It’s funny because as you’re saying, I’m like, oh, that’s what that is. If I’m not in this space to do the thing that I want to do, I have taught myself like I end up cleaning like everything has to be in

30:11

everything.

30:11

Its place.

30:11

Oh gotcha,

30:12

Everything goes back

30:12

yeah.

30:12

to its place, so I’ll just. I’ll feel very stressed and I’ll just say, alright. Everything has to go! So I’ll just go from room to room and kind of put things where I know everything needs to be and then I’ll start feeling more comfortable. And then I can take on whatever it was. It is things in their place and it is also the budget being. Being current like shored up everything is in the budget and we know where we’re at money wise. But

30:37

I

30:37

the only

30:37

do

30:37

problem with

30:37

that.

30:37

that.

30:38

I didn’t realize I would y’all I do

30:40

Yeah,

30:40

that too.

30:41

Do you? Nice.

30:42

It’s hilarious, OK?

30:43

Yeah, but the only problem with that is then that one task that should take 15 minutes ends up taking about 3 1/2, four hours and it’s usually on like a day off because that’s the only time I have that much time and you know, it’s like, what did I do, you know? And it just feel lost.

31:01

Before I had my autism diagnosis also, I had some neuro psych testing done a couple years ago,

31:07

OK.

31:07

so which is kind of funny now. ’cause like I knew something was up

31:10

Yeah.

31:10

up, it was, some working memory issues and one of the things that she the doc suggested to me is to talk out loud about what I needed to do. Because I’m I’m a verbal and auditory processor, so the value of going to that different place in my brain. Right, if you’re writing something that’s different than if you’re saying it and hearing it, and that made a huge difference for me too, so I don’t care if people think that’s weird. I’m going to start talking about the thing I need to do and pretend like I’m talking to somebody else about it, or even talk to somebody else about it. So like

31:48

Nice.

31:48

that’s that’s a new. A new tactic

31:53

I actually do that audiobook thing with chores, too, because like I’ll get so overwhelmed. But if I just start an audiobook or podcast or even music, then it distracts me from how much I don’t feel like doing that thing.

32:06

Yeah.

32:08

So that’s kind of a tip there. Or get on the phone with somebody.

32:12

That’s good, yeah.

32:13

I did think of another obstacle that I plan to ask for accommodations around.

32:17

Yeah, what’s that?

32:18

Well, 2. One Is work schedule, so

32:21

OK.

32:22

you know I have days that are lower spoons than others

32:25

Uh huh.

32:25

and it would be really great if my net hours for the week were the thing that was measured instead of per day, right?

32:31

I like that,

32:32

So if I have

32:32

ah.

32:32

a junk day on Tuesday and I’m kind of two hours short, if I could just if I have energy, if I can make that up instead of having to take time off, that would be helpful. And then the second one is zoom fatigue. I mean, that’s real.

32:46

Yeah.

32:46

And they recently came out with the thing that we have to have our cameras on.

32:51

Oh no.

32:52

And that’s incredibly exhausting, because

32:55

Absolutely.

32:56

I read an article about it like women are- because we’re we’re policing or what our face is doing right? We’re trying to act interested in what somebody saying we’re nodding. I literally can’t focus on what people are saying when that’s happening, so I I did tell my boss, like, look. I need you to back me up on this, but I’m going to turn my camera on in the beginning and I’ll turn it on when I’m talking, but I can’t have it on. Because I’m worrying that people are looking at me and I might have the wrong thing on their face, which

33:27

Yeah.

33:28

is the most masking thing ever

33:30

Right?

33:30

that I’m that worried about my facial expressions, you know,

33:34

Yeah.

33:34

but.

33:36

Oh, I totally

33:37

So.

33:37

get that. Oh I get that.

33:40

So let’s talk about the fun stuff. The abilities that you

33:43

OK?

33:43

have because your brain works different. How does that help you as a project manager, I can imagine multiple things, but I’d love to hear how that looks for you.

33:53

Yeah, so one thing is my hyper empathy. So

33:57

OK.

33:58

when I’m in a meeting and I know the people that are there. I can literally tell what’s going to be a problem for some people, right? So for example, we were moving this move project and I and the person who’s in charge of the budget was sitting over here and somebody starts talking about like Oh well. Just do this, this, and this and it was like $100,000 and I knew she probably wasn’t going to bring it up.

34:21

But you could,

34:22

Because

34:22

yeah.

34:22

I know her, but I knew. And so then I was able to, you know, guess what her problem is and state it and say well, is anybody else worried about that? And then her

34:33

ahah

34:33

and two other people you know.

34:34

Yeah.

34:35

So that did that. I think I not only learn what the business needs, but I also learn like what’s important to that person

34:42

Yeah.

34:42

and then that’s literally part of my calculation when I’m doing things. And so. Uhm yeah yeah

34:50

That’s gotta be super

34:50

that’s a

34:50

helpful.

34:50

good one.

34:51

Yeah,

34:52

It is,

34:52

that’s awesome.

34:52

it is. My alexithymia can be a really big advantage at work too, because I don’t get upset while something is happening.

What

35:03

I

35:03

is that

35:04

like

35:04

now

35:04

I

35:04

I?

35:04

get through it. Oh, alexithymia is like. My understanding of it is like when you’re not knowing you’re experiencing an emotion or which emotion it is and why.

35:15

OK, yes.

35:16

So I have delayed emotional processing is another way to look at it, right?

35:21

OK.

35:21

So like, in that active confrontation I stay relatively calm and I can kind of compartmentalize it to deal with it later, but if it gets to a certain threshold then I kind of freeze, but in the business world, that’s better than you know, like blowing

35:40

Blah blah blah.

35:40

up and saying the wrong thing, so

35:41

Yeah.

35:41

I think that’s been advantageous at work. And then I can come back after the fact and you know. Figure it out. Figure

35:48

Yeah,

35:48

out what I need to do.

35:49

that’s important. Nice, I like

35:51

And

35:51

that.

35:51

just that the design aspect of what I do so. I’m able to see the pattern like I mentioned that Windows project figuring out how to do that a year faster. So I think it’s that. Seeing a problem prewiring the conversation where I anticipate what I need to talk about and what their objections are going to be, and then I can kind of help them. Steered to a couple solutions so.

36:19

That’s fantastic.

36:20

Does that

36:21

Yeah

36:21

make sense?

36:21

I love it, yeah.

36:26

So silly question on that. When you

36:28

Sure.

36:28

put that into a time.

36:33

Like a timetable, I guess. Do you factor in that it takes a lot longer to do the first one and then by the you know the ones that go along or go much much

36:44

That’s

36:44

faster?

36:44

a great question. Yeah, that’s a great question. We have something in it called the first time, first use penalty.

36:50

OK.

36:51

And what that means is you do not know what you do not know.

36:55

Yeah.

36:56

And so kind of like we’re having to advocate right now for pilots, because

37:00

OK.

37:00

a lot of people don’t understand why you need to pilot something. And so I’ve been coming up with analogies for that, but basically, like it’s going to take longer the first time because there’s so many new things you’re going to figure out. And if you iron those out. You can do the subsequent ones faster because you will prevent those problems,

37:18

Yeah.

37:18

but if you don’t pilot.

37:20

And

37:20

And

37:20

then you

37:20

you

37:20

got to

37:21

figure

37:21

fix

37:21

out what

37:21

100

37:21

you think

37:22

of them.

37:22

is the plan and you take what you think is the plan that’s untested and you go do it 100 times. Let’s just say you have 4 problems per project. That’s 400 issues,

37:32

Yeah

37:33

whereas

37:33

wow.

37:33

if you had tested at once, fix those four issues right? Then you just had four things to fix, not 400,

37:41

Yeah.

37:42

so like. Yeah, that’s a that’s a great question, so you could get faster. You can do more than one at a time when you figure out how to do it better. So like you could do kickoffs for like a group of people after you’ve tested it with one person. Yep.

37:58

Right on that’s awesome. That is very cool.

38:03

Good question.

38:04

Thanks.

38:10

For our listeners, that was me patting myself on the back.

38:18

I’m curious because so we talked about a couple of things that you were talking about asking for some of the accommodations. And of course I was most interested in the couch because that would be fantastic. All that had nothing to do with your autism. They had to your sleep issues. I don’t know how they say that without.

38:36

I I actually think I am only now realizing how much those two things impact each other.

38:43

Ah.

38:43

So I don’t know how much of my sleep disorder is autistic burnout.

38:48

You know that’s we had talked to somebody in one of our.

38:55

Interviewees and they had mentioned it was so, so interesting that. He had thought basically so much of Diagnosis is are from autistic people dealing with the world. How do you say that?

39:11

they’re like stress, stress, exacerbated conditions.

39:17

Yeah.

39:19

Based on the autistic profile.

39:22

Yeah I like

39:22

Maybe?

39:23

that. Yeah, that’s what I said. She was just copying me.

39:31

But yes, so separating out what causes my autistic self to be more stressed and overwhelmed and over stimulated is benefiting my sleep disorder

39:45

It

39:45

because.

39:45

makes sense.

39:47

I didn’t you know cortisol makes the sleep disorder worse. It’s

39:51

OK.

39:51

a. Idiopathic hypersomnia, so like. Stress immediately I have to go sleep so

39:58

Yeah.

39:59

figuring out more things to cut out, overstimulation. On things that bothers me is making me less stressed so.

40:09

Interesting,

Good stress on projects though like there well it may be good for me, but not other people right? Is that that I enjoy the the pressure to fix the broken thing

40:23

Yeah.

40:23

that’s stressful. Change is stressful for people that kind of change and making something better change is not stressful for me. What’s stressful for me is something being crappy and I don’t have power to fix it.

40:36

Got

40:36

So

40:36

it, yeah?

40:37

as long as there’s like a dynamic aspect of what I can do. Then it’s not as stressful for me.

40:43

Yeah, for me, and I’m not trying to tell you how you’re supposed to feel. ’cause that’s

40:47

Oh

40:47

not

40:48

no

40:48

what

40:48

no no

40:48

I’m up to,

40:49

no.

40:49

but for me, like I find that more exhilarating excitement for me. I

40:55

Yep,

40:55

think to you know,

40:56

Yep.

40:56

I don’t find that stressful. I love problem solving, especially in the moment where I know, you know, the whole outcome of whatever it is I’m working on hinges on me. Figuring out just the right thing to do right here.

41:09

Yeah, Yep, that makes sense.

41:14

So we’re really excited to see how successful you’ve been and how much you have been able to take all of your strengths and make them work for you, and it’s really exciting. I would love to know and I think our listeners would love to hear from you. What kind of advice would you give to somebody who’s either just learning their diagnosis or just entering the workforce having this diagnosis? What would you say to them?

41:45

I think as far as the just getting the diagnosis just, I would say read everything you can get your hands on by adult autistics because nobody can beat that lived experience and you

41:59

Yeah.

41:59

know, no neurotypical doctor is going to have any idea honestly of what’s beneficial for you and you kind of just gotta go in distrusting that you

42:08

Yeah.

42:08

know and then realize when you’re hearing things about yourself. That say a deficit and you know these things need correction or social skills issues. That’s all junk, we’re just different. It’s like learning Greek, right?

42:23

Yeah.

42:23

It’s just a whole another way of communicating and interacting and so. Just be accepting of the fact that you’re different. It’s totally OK, we just have to squish the world out of the way and make take up. We need to take up more space and be

42:39

There

42:39

OK

42:39

you go.

42:39

with ourselves and take up that space.

42:41

I love it.

42:42

I highly recommend there’s a couple sensory checklist where you can go try stuff. And that’s been the single most useful thing for me just to go through online and be like OK. Do you like being in the grass with no shoes on or not? Just like learning about that so that you can go try things out so that when you do get over stimulated, you have an arsenal of things to try and then you can learn more. So like there are so many things. That I was not aware bothered me and there were so many things that I was not aware was a stim that was helpful to me.

43:20

Yeah.

43:21

That’s just been amazing to find out, so I think. My life is literally better than it was three months ago because of just that part. So

43:30

Wow.

43:31

I would. I would prioritize that part of things, yeah.

43:34

That’s awesome.

43:35

Like I wear earplugs all the time now.

43:37

Yeah.

43:38

Not not you’re not headphones, but just noise kind of baffler dampener things and that’s been crazy. Like I love to sit outside, but I would get so irritated when like somebody’s mowing their grass or some kids screaming like if it was like a consistent noise. It doesn’t bother me, but the punctuated loud noises

43:57

Yes.

43:57

make and I think I wish it wasn’t like this but now I go sit outside with the ear plugs in. And I feel like I’ve been on vacation. I mean it. It’s just completely different. It’s

44:10

Huge

44:11

amazing.

44:11

difference, I think we have those is it

44:13

Yeah.

44:13

kind of like the well we have the flare ones. The flare audio and they’re not

44:17

Yeah.

44:17

actual plugs. OK they’re like a redirection

44:20

Yeah.

44:21

of the vibration of the sound, so it just kind

44:23

Oh

44:23

of it

44:24

yeah.

44:25

rounds off the sharp edges of all the noises. Which I love. Yeah, it’s been very helpful. Yeah.

44:30

Yeah.

44:33

I was going to say about the job

44:35

Yeah.

44:36

about starting out on a job or or. Re examining what you want to do for a job after diagnosis too. So like I think either way If you can’t be candid about what you’re good at, if you have somebody you can bounce ideas off of and try and figure out what jobs that might line up with,

44:55

It’s going

44:56

but

44:56

to do.

44:56

there’s also a lot of free podcasts, can I mention one? Do

45:02

Sure,

45:02

you guys care

45:02

absolutely

45:03

to 

45:03

yeah.

45:04

OK. It’s called manager-tools.com, and that’s like I have listened to all of those. So whether you want to be a manager or not, it has all kinds of great tips for how to interview. And you know, like when you’re new at some place, how do you get started?

45:25

And make yourself valuable so it’s got a ton of helpful hints.

45:29

That makes sense. I love it.

45:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that’s super helpful

45:36

Yeah, I know ahead of time now. It’s good advice. I like that thank you Andrea for coming onto the show and teaching us about your job. Thank you. Yeah, we’re happy to have you here

45:45

Thank

45:45

with us.

45:46

you. OK, this was fun. This was a pleasure. Thank you guys.

Transcript

Hey everyone welcome. Hi there! To Autism On Shift I’m Thora. Interrupting Adam. Moo.

00:13

So today is a little different. We unfortunately do not have an episode and we apologize for that. Sorry. Yeah, we have some technical difficulties. I’ve been trying to piece together and out takes episode and yeah, I failed. Thora got put in jail, is what really happened and so she hasn’t been able to do it. It’s just a lot of editing and it’s going to take a lot of time. But the thing is we do need some more guests. We have a few people. Lined up, but the more the merrier because we want to get some episodes out there for you peoples. Yeah, we want to be consistent. We want to make sure that we’re always here for you every Thursday morning. Uhm? I imagine some of you might hesitate a tiny bit. It’s not uncommon for us to have anxiety. I don’t know nothing about that. But I want to assuage your fears a little bit. The experience of the interview, like our interviews, are about 40 minutes each, but they usually take an hour to an hour and a half and we cut out all of the- mostly we cut out all the stupid shit I say.

01:23

It’s not true. We all you know. The thing is we all kind of, you know, it’s a casual conversation and and we talk a little bit before the show. We get to know people. We kind of just hang out and make everyone feel comfortable and hopefully people are a little bit more comfortable and some people want to run away when they meet me. Uhm, I know I did. You had a really strong rope.

01:47

I’m just kidding. I’m so tired. This is my bedtime, so pardon me for taking a minute for everything you say.

01:57

I’m supposed to be surprised? No. Our listeners are. They’re so surprised because I’m always such on the ball and never- So we mess up and there’s all kinds of stuff that goes on. But the point is, is that you know what you hear is edited. You know, we’ve, we’ve, we take it up with the best stuff that people say. And you know, basically trying to make ourselves look awesome. Yeah, and we do the same for you. No, I don’t mind looking like an ass. You do such a good job at it. We don’t want to take that away from you. Totally, totally not. But you know, as as it relates to our guests, we want we want you to feel good about your experience. We’re going to take out anything that might embarrass you. That’s not going to go in the show. Right. Anything I mean, just you know? I mean, we’re just hanging out, and if you say what’s on your mind and you feel like you don’t want that in the show, you can always just say, oh, hey, scratch that or hey cut that or you know whatever like not not an issue we’ve had people say, oh hey I want to answer your question but you can’t put it in the show because it’s because I’m talking about a certain person or whatever and that gets cut. We completely want to validate your experience, we want you to feel comfortable to be open and just be yourself and not have to worry. And we want you to be on the show. That too. You know the whole point of letting you guys know is because we imagine, as I imagined for myself, being for a different podcast, or when people ask for a volunteer for something. You know I’m like, I’m nervous, you know, and- Oh, you know, it’s funny in the outtakes episode that I’m trying to edit. You actually say that at one point, and I wanted to put it in. Oh, really, yeah, you say I was terrified when Thora asked me to do this. And Oh my God, I would never. Yeah

04:00

it was funny. I didn’t know we took that out. I thought it was actually in one of the episodes. Oh was it? But you could still put it in. You can say it twice. It’ll be the Adam remix.

04:11

I hear there might actually be a remix in the next episode. I’m trying to figure out how to make a fun little loop beat thing. You’re a smart ass, you can figure it out.

04:24

Is that not how that works, although to be fair, Adam is usually the editor, so true he does the hard work. But not always.

04:34

I edited one episode, maybe two. I did the hard work the other day. I worked 16 hours. You sure did! That was rough. Yeah. Hold me!

04:45

So, yeah, it’s it’s super fun, super casual conversation. We joke around. We talk about real stuff. We talk about fun stuff. And we do our best to make you look good. Once the show comes out. Oh you look good. You all look good. Want to go out? Hey, you’re married. Geez, how many times- Now who’s holding the rope?

05:12

I don’t know what to say about that.

05:16

Where you going? Get back here. So again, we apologize for not having an episode for y’all today. But yeah, we’ve got a couple coming up. We have a CEO, I believe. Ooh, fancy. A man who I’m actually really excited to talk to you because he doesn’t like to call himself a CEO. He likes to call himself. I forget the word, but it was super fun and I can’t. It makes me want to talk to him. Well, now we can put that air this episode because you just you just outed him as a CEO and doesn’t even want to be called the CEO. Oh, just screwed it all up. I do it all the time. Well, now you’re gonna have to edit this one. I probably won’t.

That’s what editing is for. That’s right that we just we say we say whatever we feel like saying and then if it makes me embarrassed then I take it out. Perfect. Is that why you always take me outside?

06:16

No, I would take you inside if you embarrassed me. I don’t. Nobody gets to see you. Because I have my pants off?

06:26

Oh so so yeah, come hang out with us.

06:35

Adam will keep his pants on, I promise.

06:39

You know you put these two things in a row. Adam has his pants off, so come hang out.

06:49

You know how to keep people out. Do I?  Is that my thing? Maybe that’s what it is.

06:56

I just I’m so repellent. Is that a word? I don’t know. You’re the wordsmith, yeah, and you’re tired. I am very tired. So. Yeah, so CarveResumes.com go to the top of the podcast page and just two boxes, your name and your email and we will ping you to schedule. It’s nice and easy on there now. Yeah, thanks for listening. Sorry again and we will definitely get an episode out to you guys next week. Oh yeah, have a good un. Bye! Good’un?

Also, check out the organizations we talk about, Atypical Support CIC and The Bank, Chopwell.

His amazing work can be found at www.ir8bespoke.com, his Facebook and YouTube.

www.TrailAndUltraWomen.com and Instagram & Facebook with @trailandultrawomen

Shout out to her favorite marketing guy, Richard Pond at www.richardpondmarketing.co.uk

He hosts the Ballistic Autistic podcast on all platforms. Some popular places to find it are Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Transcript

Adam    00:00:06    Oh, my God Thora just hit me in the face! Hi, this is Adam.

Thora And this is Thora

Adam And I like to make her laugh. This is autism on shift where 

Thora we talk to other autistic folks about what we do at work. 

Adam Let’s dive in it. It’ll be fun 

Thora Today. We are talking to Rachel Houghton. Did I say that right, Rachel? 

Rachel Yes. 

Thora Houghton. Awesome. I got it. Okay. And Rachel is, uh, officially your official title is product owner, correct? 

Rachel Yes. 

Thora And you work in software, tell us what that’s like and what that all means.  

Rachel    00:00:46    So I do work in software. Um, I am not myself, a software engineer. Well, yet. I’m hoping to one day. Um, but I work with a team of software engineers and test engineers. Uh, and we basically, we take a bunch of work that I have kind of put together, um, geared towards, you know, new enhancements to the product that we have. Um, or maybe even small tweaks to, you know, fix certain issues that seem very buggy or bugs themselves cause they happen. It’s software. Um, so I take that work to my team and, you know, we, we work together to just, you know, get things done.  

Thora    00:01:38    Awesome. So can I ask what kind of software like  

Rachel    00:01:42    Yeah, so I work at a company called Vector Solutions and we’re transitioning into a solutions company. Um, we have many different types of platforms. Our primary platform is a learning management system, uh, where we do online learning, online based education, uh, courses, um, in many different fields, everything from the general, you know, sexual harassment and, you know, bullying in the workplace kind of courses that, you know, most companies require their people to take, um, to things like crane safety, um, or other courses that would be for someone who is, say a contractor who needs to get their continuing education credits to get their license renewed. Um, so it’s, uh, it’s a whole spectrum of types of courses for online learning. Yeah. You saw what I did there. So yeah, that, that, that is primarily what we do, but, but, you know, we do have also other products like incident management software, uh, which is, you know, if you are in a warehouse situation and, you know, there’s an oil spill and, you know, somebody slips and falls, you can, you know, log the incident and it kind of takes the incident all the way through the, you know, the, the insurance system and everything like that. So we’re kind of trying to integrate all of those different platforms into a single solution at the moment.  

Thora    00:03:15    How cool! Okay, so as a product owner, do you have just like one specific, um,  

Adam    00:03:22    Do you mean like one project at a time or,  

Thora    00:03:25    I mean, could you call it a project or I, um, I’m sorry to sound so ignorant. I just don’t know.  

Rachel    00:03:31    That’s okay. It’s okay. So the, the product that I work on has many different, we call them services, so many different things that it does. And so my team, my group has like a subset of those services. Um, there are multiple teams on that product in general. So if there are in special enhancements for any of those specific services or bugs that come in for those, those are the things that we work on.  

Adam    00:03:58    And do you guys figure out like the enhancements together, like when you’re in meetings or is that, or does someone else come up with those and then you guys work on them?  

Rachel    00:04:06    So we do have an executive leadership team that gathers, uh, information and data from client requests and, um, kind of looking into our legacy systems to kind of locate areas that are troublesome from a user experience perspective. Um, and then they kind of give us the work from a very high level. Um, for example, they’ll say, Hey, assignments are very awful right now, so we need to redo them. So I say, okay, let’s do it. And, uh, you know, I’ll dig into, you know, what it is right now and get a feel for what that experience is. And, uh, we have a user experience team that talks to the clients and understands where their pain points are. And, you know, we work to, you know, put a better workflow together. And then I take that to my team and, you know, we kind of hash through the technical aspects of how we’re actually going to accomplish what we need to do.  

Adam    00:05:08    So you’re a translator of sorts then dealing with the clients and dealing with the executive team.  

Rachel    00:05:15    That’s exactly, actually a very good way to put it. I am a translator. I take what the client needs and I translate it to my team in such a way to where what we deliver is actually what the client needs. 

Thora That’s awesome. 

Rachel Yeah.  

Thora    00:05:32    Okay. So when we spoke before you said something about stories, so you, you create, like you write a story about what a user experience I assume, and  

Adam    00:05:42    Yeah. Is that similar to like actually like a storyboard, like when you were making like a, like a movie kind of thing,  

Rachel    00:05:48    It is, it’s actually exactly like that. Um, we do, we do, what’s called story mapping where, you know, we take basically all these different actions that the end user, as we call them, um, all these different actions that the end user is doing, and we literally map it out step-by-step so that we can kind of hit all of those things that they need to do in order to reach a specific goal. So in that story mapping, I take each of those individual pieces kind of as a story itself and write it out and, you know, there’s, you know, different like acceptance criteria and all kinds of things that kind of go into that specific story as a chunk of work, to be done for the overall, what we, what we call an Epic, which is it’s the overall goal broken into these smaller pieces.  

Thora    00:06:40    It’s the trilogy, it’s the whole Marvel universe.  

Adam    00:06:43    I feel really good when you finish it though, then it’s like, we completed that Epic amount of work, or, you know, it’s like,  

Rachel    00:06:50    I’m embarrassed to say how gratifying it is. Actually.  

Adam    00:06:55    I totally get excited just thinking about it, like any kind of amount of work, but I like that sort of thing. I’m a task oriented person. So it’s like, as I check things off, I’m like, yes, yes, yes!  

Rachel    00:07:06    Yes. It’s very nice. So, you know, the projects become my baby to a degree. And so as we kind of get these increments out, these little pieces of it to the clients and they kind of start using them and give their feedback and, you know, we take that feedback and we put them back into the stories to make sure that, you know, we’re making the adjustments that we need before we get to the end, instead of building the whole thing and then sending it out and realizing we were wrong at the beginning. 

Adam Oops. 

Thora Wow. 

Rachel So that’s, that’s another part of my job is kind of balancing, you know, the delivery of it with the feedback of the clients and adjusting as needed.  

Adam    00:07:47    Okay. Yeah. So now the baby to college and oops, we forgot to let them teach them how to walk.  

Thora    00:07:57    So you had mentioned, this takes a lot of data analytics, right? Like you, you dig through data and you make it mean stuff, and then you apply it to the story. So that’s kind of, I mean, it’s kind of like full brain work, right? Like creative and logic and all at once.  

Rachel    00:08:14    It is full brain work, it requires, um, understanding the needs of the end user, understanding the current capabilities of the system and where those gaps are. And also understanding, um, from a technical perspective, what our capabilities are, um, and kind of trying to find that perfect middle ground of where we can get, where we need to go also with the minimal amount of effort. Um, because obviously it’s a business and, you know, you have this team of software developers and they are skilled and not cheap, so you gotta make sure you stay on budget. 

Thora Wow. 

Rachel So, yeah, it’s, it’s kind of perfect for me in a way, because my, I feel like my head is already kind of constantly going and I’m like, uh, I’m a problem solver. I’m a puzzle person. So it’s like I get to go to work and do puzzles all day. And it is perfect.  

Adam    00:09:15    That was funny. It was literally what I was going to ask you, is that something you like or dislike about em, but obviously clearly… that’s awesome.  

Thora    00:09:24    It’s very cool when there’s so many moving parts and that you can like, it sounds like you have the ability to both step back and look at all of the pieces and how they go together and then also dive into each part and, and figure out like each piece and what it needs.  

Rachel    00:09:41    Yes. That is the requirement of the job for sure.  

Thora    00:09:46    Oh, wow. That’s awesome. That is very cool. Um,  

Adam    00:09:50    Now you said this just started, you started in this position about six months ago. 

Rachel Yes. 

Adam So before that, um, before that, well tell our listeners at least, what did you do before that? And then I’m curious about something else after. Go ahead. And, um, I’m curious what you did before that.  

Rachel    00:10:07    Yeah. So before that, um, my title was business analyst and, um, really my job at that point was just to put those stories together. So it really was only like, uh, I say paperwork, it really was, was mostly paperwork. It did require some, um, ability to analyze data. Um, but yeah, that, that’s all I did was kind of putting all of that together. I was not, you know, responsible for prioritizing or timelines or, um, I guess there’s a part of my job right now where, you know, once the developer is complete, then I have to kind of look at it and make sure that it kind of meets the seal of approval. That wasn’t part of my job before. So a lot of what I do now is what I did before. It just is more now than before.  

Adam    00:11:04    And so, I mean, obviously pre, pre COVID, since you’re everyone you’re able to work from home being in software, on computers and everything. Um, do you remember, I’m just thinking back to like, you know, at the beginning, 

Rachel It seems so long ago!

Adam Do you remember what that was like when we could go outside? No, that was, I would say like, do you remember like the interview process that you went through to interview for the job in the first place? Was that like in person?  

Rachel    00:11:30    Um, so it was a combination. So, um, I interviewed for the business analyst position. Um, and my first interview was over the phone, which always gets me kind of nervous because if I can’t see the person in front of me, I can’t really gauge from their physical reactions. Um, if they are happy or not happy, you interested not interested. Um, um, I’m okay with voice inflection and those things, but, um, I definitely, yeah the, the phone interview is very nerve-wracking for me, but  

Adam    00:12:09    It would be for me, too. I hate the phone. Now. I know why those, you, you explained it very well for me.  

Rachel    00:12:14    Yeah. I, I really don’t care for the phone for like, without, yeah. I really don’t like it, but, um, I did end up getting called in for a second interview, which was in person. And, um, that was, uh, that had its own challenges. It was a new environment. Um, and it was one of those things where there’s like, Oh, we’re in this building that is attached to this other building, but the parking garage is over there. And then you have to go to the third floor and go to the left. And it was, I had it written down on a paper and like, I had to like, just calm myself down and just go step by step by step and literally like stop and pause in between, like, I parked my car. I’m like, okay, I’m parked. Now, get out and go into the lobby. And I really had to just kind of take myself step by step.  

Adam    00:13:09    That’s actually good advice though, too. Like, I think we were talking about that yesterday. Like just even driving somewhere, it was like, like downtown or somewhere where it was more busy or somewhere we haven’t been before. And it’s like, that alone is like super, um, what’s that word? 

Thora It’s anxiety-inducing. 

Adam Yeah, totally. 

Thora Yeah. 

Rachel Yeah. 

Thora I read something recently. There was, um, it was something to the effect of different days required, different number of steps sometimes for the same thing. And the, they use the example of like making coffee, you know, on a good day, the steps are, you know, fill the water, put the coffee in, make the coffee, you know, but on a, you know, on a, a harder day, it might be, you know, pull the pot out, fill the pot with water, take the water, put it in the thing, you know what I mean? 

Adam Throw the coffee pot across the room because it’s getting to be too much!  

Rachel    00:14:11    Yeah. Um, so, so yeah, it was, it was definitely very, very nerve-wracking. And then once I finally found where I was supposed to be, um, it was just one of those situations where like I was in the lobby and it’s like a glass wall behind me and there’s people in there. And then there’s people in front of me and there’s people kind of walking in all these different directions. And, and I knew, and like the person that was interviewing me was going to be coming out to greet me. And there were several times where I like stood up. Like I was going to be shaking hands with somebody. Cause I thought that they were the one, but they weren’t. And so they kind of looked at me funny and just went along their way. Um, and there was the dressing up and I’m not very comfortable in, you know, the business casual clothing. And so, yeah, it was, it was a little rough.

Adam I’m sweating. Just thinking about it, man.  

Rachel    00:15:13    Yeah. The, the interview itself was kind of okay, because we were, you know, we were in a room, it was just the two of us. And so it was a lot quieter. And I had, I had already talked to her on the phone, so there was already some familiarity and she was just friendly. So that also helped quite a bit.  

Adam    00:15:34    Yeah. I think the hardest in the interviews, I always tend like if someone tries to be real, like they don’t want to show you anything. So they just, every answer you give, they just keep that straight face, you know, like, and they ask the next question. You’re just like, Oh my God, I don’t know about other people, but that for me, just terrible. It’s like, you don’t need to do that. You’re not like saving the world here, doing that, you know, just be a human being with me please.  

Rachel    00:16:00    Yeah. Yeah, no, she, she was very warm and, um, just, you know, smiled a lot. And I don’t know, I just, I could get from her reactions, you know, she, she wasn’t like a robot, you know, sometimes those interviews and they just ask the question and you don’t get any like feedback, like instant feedback, like from in the physical nature. And that makes it very difficult, but that is not how, how it went. So 

Thora That’s awesome.  

Adam    00:16:27    Now, is this person, uh, someone you work with now or do you not see them anymore? Just HR. 

Rachel    00:16:32    Um, I do not see them anymore. She, uh, she was my manager, uh, for the first year that I worked there and then I had, uh, transferred to, um, a different product for about another year until, uh, I got this job.  

Adam    00:16:48    Okay. Nice. 

Thora Awesome. So, so let’s talk about, um, let’s talk about autism at work, right? Like sometimes it, sometimes it’s good for us and sometimes it’s not, um, let’s start with the not, um, how, how does it 

Adam Hinder? 

Thora Yeah, hinder? How does it hinder you in your job?  

Rachel    00:17:12    I think it’s gotten honestly a lot better since I have been able to work from home.   

Rachel    00:17:18    But I remember in the office, it was always, um, a lot more challenging again, it was like this business casual thing. So I was often physically uncomfortable because of the clothes that I was wearing. Um, and then, you know, just my, my office was literally like right here in the middle of a room where there was people over here and, and sorry, they can’t see me. There’s people on my left, there’s people on my right, and people walking by a lot. Um, so I had to, uh, you know, like keep my headphones and, you know, try to kind of stay as focused as I could. Um, but the, you know, the fluorescent lights and it was like a wall, the glass wall, like to outside. So if the sun was shining, then there was that, um, sometimes people have music playing, sometimes people would be eating at their desk, um, and eating very offensive. Um,

Adam I imagine it.

Rachel Yeah, just, you know  

Adam    00:18:23    Do you mean smells or like sound of, 

Thora Yeah, I’m going to reheat my salmon for lunch. 

Adam And my boiled eggs.  

Rachel    00:18:29    That has happened actually. Like, and I remember not really understanding because there was a lunchroom that really wasn’t that far away. So I didn’t understand the whole, um, I dunno, sitting down and eating, um, yeah. Was like, well, it’s certain things, um, like I’m allergic to shellfish, so I am very hypersensitive to the smell of, you know, shrimp or lobster or anything like that. And so anytime there was any sort of like a seafood thing, someone was eating, it was just very overwhelming. 

Thora Oh, wow. 

Rachel Um, and so yeah, that, that, wasn’t great. And then just, you know, sometimes people would just walk up to your desk and start talking and like, if I was in the middle of something and you know, this has been a challenge for me even before this job, when I was at my job prior, like, cause I did at one point work in customer support. And, um, so yeah, there were times where, you know, you just, the interruptions.  

Adam    00:19:37    Yeah. Getting back on task. I know for Thora, I can’t, I cannot interrupt her. I’m not allowed to, you know, and if I mean, you know, we’ve been together 19 years, so I, but I’m still learning because I am who I am. And so like, there’s this aspect of, okay, Hey, Thora, get her attention first. You know, can you pause what you’re doing? No. Then I’m like, ah, no, I gotta wait. And then if it’s yes, then she has to get to a breaking point. So she can go back to where she was after we’re done talking about whatever. I mean, it’s just how it goes.  

Thora    00:20:15    Yeah. I absolutely get the interruption disruption. It takes so much longer to get back into what, what I was doing, you know? Um, and it’s funny, like my supervisor didn’t get that. Um, you know, she wouldn’t, she, yeah, she would.  She, so she would give me a task, um, and then expect me to do it a certain way. And I was like, well, okay. But I would go and do it, you know, a way that made more sense for me. And she’s like, no, I need you to do it this way. And I’m like, yeah, but that interrupts this process. So I need to do all of this and then switch. And then all of this, otherwise I’m switching, you know, every five minutes and that makes my brain kind of freak out.  

Adam    00:21:02    Yeah. I can’t be micromanaged. I have to do it a certain way.  

Rachel    00:21:06    Yeah. I, I had a similar thing with, with my manager. She actually, her desk was right in front of mine. And so aside from tasks, having to kind of be done in a specific way, which didn’t make sense to me, um, which did cause some conflict. Um, it was just the constant, you know, turning around in her chair and be like, “Oh, by the way.” And I absolutely the two things I hate hearing the most at work is, “Oh, by the way” and “quick question”. Those are the two things that I hate the most because it’s never a quick question. Not ever.  

Thora    00:21:47    And even if it is a quick question, like returning to whatever it was you were doing is not going to be quick regardless. 

Adam Right.  

Rachel    00:21:55    It’s not, and often I would have like a list of tasks that I knew I needed to complete and I would have to do them, you know, like between meetings or something. And so I would have to time them accordingly. So if something was going to take me longer than I would have to do it, you know, maybe later, because I only have 30 minutes between these two meetings, so I would have to do something else during that time. Um, or even just, you know, there were days where I would be really hyper-focused and get, you know, an entire day’s work of work or in days worth of work done in a morning and then be pretty exhausted for the rest of the day. But I still, you know, would have to kind of just sit there and do my best to try to do more work. And it, um, yeah, I usually was feeling pretty exhausted by the time I got home.  

Adam    00:22:52    Yeah, I imagine. You know, it was kind of odd that, um, managers do that cause it’s kind of a business, uh, I mean, it’s, it’s written, I’ve read it a lot where it’s, you know, like the best way to be, uh, effective is to take on one task at a time, you know, don’t multitask take one thing. I mean, it’s stuff I read constantly for managers and, and business hierarchy, you know, take that one thing, finish it, complete it. That way, if someone interrupts you, you can go back to that one thing, you know, what you’re working on until it’s done. But yet when it comes to telling someone else what to do, they have no problem, like interrupt, interrupt interrupt. Here’s five different things, you know, it’s like, well, that doesn’t make much sense if you understand that, but maybe  

Thora    00:23:35    Yeah. Well it’s, it’s helped quite a bit for me. Like, um, now that I have learned, right, like my supervisor spent some time teaching me, you know, uh, my job tasks, but now that I’ve learned, I’ve been given the freedom to do them, how I can do them. So it’s like once she was able to kind of let me go, then I got way faster. So yeah, yeah,  

Rachel    00:24:01    Yeah. That, that’s the position I’m in right now. My, my supervisor, his name is Kenny. Hi, Kenny. He’s probably gonna listen, but, um,  

Thora    00:24:09    Hi Kenny!

Adam He’s the best!  

Rachel    00:24:12    He is actually the best. Um, you know, he, he was one of the first people that I actually came out to at work about. Um, my Asperger’s and you know, his first reaction was not what I was expecting. Um, I, you know, we’re used to maybe saying it to somebody and then like, they get kind of like standoffish. He didn’t at all. He was just like, kind of like, okay, well, cool. Why don’t you, you know, I don’t know much about it. I’ll tell you that. So how about, you know, we just have some conversation and you tell me what I can do and what you need from me in order to make things better for you. And he, yeah, he’s, he is the best, but, um, yeah, I, I have that freedom now and, and I don’t know if it is just like a side effect of working from home, but, you know, I, I have that freedom to where honestly, if I’m getting the work done and if I’m doing like any specific tasks that are asked of me, which is not honestly all that often, um, and the work is getting done on time and the quality is good, then, you know, there’s not a whole lot of intervention happening, so I’m free to do what I do.  

Rachel    00:25:26    And, um, apparently I, they, they like that. So, so I’m doing okay. They haven’t fired me.  

Adam    00:25:36    I think it does change a little bit from, you know, being at home because I think everybody tends to, well, you don’t want to interrupt as much because you’d have to actually call somebody on the phone, you know, or something, which I don’t think anyone really wants to do, you know, there’s texts and stuff. But I mean, in general, it’s like, do I really want to write that all out? Or I’ll just, maybe I’ll just do it myself today. You know, like, yeah, cool. You should do it yourself.  

Thora    00:25:58    I have a sched-, a regularly scheduled phone call with my supervisor, so I know what to expect. And, and, and it’s perfect. Everything else is written, you know, sometimes it’s like a, just a quick chat message. Oh, Hey, check so-and-so’s paperwork. You know? Um, sometimes it’s an email, Oh, Hey, here’s a few things I need you to do. Um, by the end of the week or whatever. So it’s like, it’s super, super helpful that I don’t get constantly interrupted.  

Adam    00:26:28    I have to sneak out. I’m just kidding. I never know what’s going to happen. Like I I’m, I’m out and about for my job. But when I get back to like my place of work, I have to, like, I never know what’s going to, is somebody gonna be there? Is there going to be four managers that each one of these managers, like, I don’t even know if I only one manager or four managers that, you know, like, who’s going to talk to me, who’s going to ask me something, you know, I’m like, I’m just gonna put my, I should just put headphones on. I’ll be like, Oh, Hey, yo, start acting like I’m talking to somebody and just keep walking out the door. And people are waving at me. And like, I’ll just wave back. You know? No, I mean, coming here, I’m like, okay, bye.  

Rachel    00:27:03    I, I’m not going to lie. I have gotten out of some conversations leaving work that way, just like putting my phone up to my ear, pretending like I’m on the phone because I have actually done that before.  

Thora    00:27:14    I love it. It’s awesome! 

Rachel A few times.  

Adam    00:27:16    I think people knew when I was doing it.  

Thora    00:27:21    What are they going to do? Make you prove it? Yeah. Who are you talking to give me the phone?  

Adam    00:27:24    They’ll ring that they’ll ring me. It’ll start ringing while I’m there. But I was going to say, you know, good for Kenny, because I’ve heard a lot of like, you know, when someone tells their boss, you know, Hey, I have autism or whatever. Like a lot of times they’ll be like, they’ll try and come up with things to help, uh, what fix them so that they can work inside of the business as opposed to what can I do exactly as opposed to, what can I do, uh, you know, for you to make it easier, you know, whatever so good for him.  

Rachel    00:27:55    Yes. Good job, Kenny. We love you.  

Thora    00:27:58    Awesome. I disclosed to my boss on day two. Um, I have, I spent many, many, many years, uh, working many, many, many jobs because yeah, I, I last about a year, maybe two years in a job before I’m ousted or just can’t mentally handle it and have to go. Um, so this time I was like, you know what, I’m just going to unapologetically be me. So day two, he’s like, you know, Hey, uh, it was kind of a real small group who had just been hired at the same time. And he said, so let’s get to know each other. I’m like, okay, well, the first thing you need to know about me is I have autism and, and everybody in the group kinda of like, you know, uh, but my boss though, to his credit, uh, seemed to know he asked a couple of questions that made it sound like he was familiar, at least like he knew what it meant to some degree. Um, so that was really helpful. And he didn’t like, he didn’t come across as shocked. He didn’t like freak out or do anything weird. But you know, he asked a couple of questions and I was like, yeah, 

Rachel You don’t seem autistic. 

Thora Yeah. 

Rachel I’ve gotten a few of those. 

Thora Oh goodness.  

Adam    00:29:13    What do we look like? Are we blue?  

Rachel    00:29:18    Yeah. I know a couple of people at work. I was just like, wow, I never would have known. You just don’t seem like, you know, you’re autistic at all. And um, I was like, okay? thank you…? Like, I don’t really know how to react to that, but okay.  

Adam    00:29:39    And then just walk away, let him, let him sit with that for awhile. That’s an interesting thing to say.  

Thora    00:29:48    I think people think they’re saying something complimentary. I think that’s what they think.  

Adam    00:29:55    It’s kind of weird because like we watched this video yesterday, uh, you know, a little different, but it was a disability, you know, it was visual disability versus non-visual  

Thora    00:30:07    Yeah, like a visible one and an invisible one.  

Adam    00:30:09    Invisible. Yeah. It was like this kid with Down syndrome and this guy, and it was funny. Cause he’s even said like, what do I have? You don’t know it’s invisible. You know? And it’s like, it was funny, it was really good. And it was, you know, it was thought provoking and it’s like, yep. That’s you know, but they were both talking about like, which is better, you know? Well, everyone knows. Everyone wants to give me a hug, you know? Cause I have down syndrome, you know, it’s like, and it’s like, the other guy said, well, no one wants to give me a, if I went to give people a hug, they would probably, uh, you know, call the police or something. And I was, it was pretty good. 

Thora Yeah.  

Rachel    00:30:42    Yeah. It would be like, please don’t hug me.  

Adam    00:30:48    I have autism. Awww, get away from me.  

Rachel    00:30:51    Yeah, really. It’s okay. You do not need to, uh, to hug me. I’ll be fine.  

Thora    00:30:56    Oh, my favorite is I’m sorry.  

Rachel    00:31:01    I have not gotten that one. I hope I never do.  

Thora    00:31:03    Okay. I’ve not gotten that one personally, but um, our daughter has Down syndrome and like when she was born, you have no idea how many, I’m sorrys we got,  

Adam    00:31:12    That was messed up. So otherwise, but yeah, the uh, Oh, well bless her soul.  

Rachel    00:31:19    Bless your heart. Yeah. I’m from Louisiana. I, I could imagine getting a lot of those there. Yeah.  

Thora    00:31:24    We know exactly what that means  

Adam    00:31:28    Um, I’m just, I keep thinking of Krav Maga now. I was like,  

Thora    00:31:34    Okay. But, okay. So, so, um, positive, positive package, silver lining, um, a good friend of ours when our daughter was born, uh, her response and this was, this was so, um, it was just so consistent with the people that we have in our lives. It was so awesome. She said, “Yay. We get to raise a baby with down syndrome!”   

Adam    00:31:57    Yep. That was awesome. That’s how we felt. We were like, yeah, it is awesome. Yeah. Speaking of which then, uh, since we asked you what, uh, can hinder you at work and we’d like to know also autism does to help you at work, which I think we might know, but I’d like to hear it from you.  

Rachel    00:32:15    Um, I think, and I think I kind of already covered it a little bit, but really I think the line of work, the fact that it’s, um, requires a lot of mental traffic, um, and organization of ideas and thoughts and problems. Um, I mean I get to solve problems all day. You know, I get, I get to, you know, figure out what is wrong and come up with creative solutions. And, um, I think the thing for me with my autism that is helpful, there is I might not come up with the solution that a neuro-typical person would come up with. I might come up with something that sounds completely out of the box and, you know, the first reaction might be like, wait, what, but then once I can explain it and you know, it is thought about a little bit, um, more than actually kind of a good idea. Um, like I, I can very much think out of the box and I can, um, I can come up with solutions quickly. Um, I can, I can take the time to kind of mentally process everything at a different speed. And, um, I think for me that is the biggest benefit of being in this particular line of work and in this, this particular job  

Adam    00:33:47    Right on. Yeah, that’s huge. I would think so. Awesome. 

Thora Um, so, Oh, we kind of touched on it, but I don’t think we actually dove deep. Like I wanted to, um, you mentioned, um, you know, Kenny asked you what he could do for you. What does he do for you? What are those things that he does for you that helped support you?  

Rachel    00:34:07    So I think the biggest thing is Kenny is really there for me. If, um, if like we need to sidebar, you know, we’re in meetings a lot together and sometimes someone like will be on a call and there will be like an analogy used like a con- like a very strange complex analogy. And I’m not like I’m okay with, with analogies kind of, but I’m just, I’m much more of a like, like tell me what we’re doing and tell me what you need from me. Just give it to me straight, kind of a person. And so there was one example that I can give you specifically where, um, our CTO was trying to, I guess, explain our, what we’re trying to accomplish in the product with like a home improvement analogy where he was saying, well, no, like, um, like, you know, sometimes like sometimes, you know, when you’re doing work, you know, you don’t want to rip out the whole kitchen to put the floor in. And I don’t know, I can’t, I can’t repeat it exactly, but it was, it was making no sense to me. And I was getting, um, I was getting kind of personally upset because I don’t like feeling like I’m behind everyone else. And so I was sidebar in with him. I was like, I have no idea what he is talking about. And so in just like a few sentences, he explained it to me and I was like, Oh, okay, well, yeah, fine. Why didn’t you just say that? 

Rachel    00:35:49    You know? Um, it’s good that those  

Adam    00:35:51    People in our lives that’s awesome then that, that is there, that person for you. Yeah.

Thora Yeah, that’s you for me. I mean, I, I, I call Adam my NT translator. He understands things about how it’s just things about the world that I don’t. Um, a lot of social things. Um, and when I have to do anything that requires some sort of like social interaction or some sort of like request, you know, whereas if it were me, I’d just straight up say, Hey, I need this, uh, you know, are you willing to give it to me? You know? And, and most people don’t like that. So I have to run it by Adam. Adam, how do I ask this in a way that doesn’t sound like I’m demanding? 

Adam Well, first take your hand off their neck. 

Rachel That would be a good first step. Yes. 

Adam Yeah. I make it up as I go along. I think that’s from failing a lot and I can help you  

Rachel    00:36:52    It’s how we learn, right? Our failures and not our successes. Okay.  

Thora    00:36:55    Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I think it’s also partially too, that you are very good at putting yourself in someone else’s shoes and not just like, not just like in an analogy sort of way, like you can literally imagine being that person and imagine thinking what they might think, given all of what you know about that person. And you’re really good at that. Yeah. Tell me more about how good I am. And here I am, I’m just oblivious in my own little world. I’m just like, okay, this is, 

Adam You know, you’re learning to. You’ll get there one day. 

Thora Someday. So, so given everything that you know about how your brain works and what you need, um, to be successful, what do you imagine your dream job would be? If you could just make up a job that would be the perfect thing for you?  

Rachel    00:37:49    Um, it has probably absolutely nothing to do with what I’m doing right now.  

Thora    00:37:57    Ok.  

Rachel    00:37:57    Not that I don’t love it, but, um, honestly for me, if I could make a job out of like taking old houses and restoring them, like on my own schedule and like being in like being in charge of it though, like I have to, I have, it would have to be like the visionary. Yeah. Um, that would probably be the best thing for me for a couple of reasons. Um, I tend to get bored very easily with, with work if I’ve been doing the same thing for too long, which doesn’t really happen in my current job much. Cause it’s, we’re always doing different things it’s always exciting and new, but like, um, in that scenario, you know, you get a house and you, you fix it and then you move on to a completely different challenge. Um, but just the idea to me of taking something, to kind of like run down and restoring it to its glory. Uh, it, I guess it kind of aligns a little bit with what, with what I do now, but in a much different and much more physical sense. Um, that would probably be if I could do anything, that’s probably what I would want to do.

Adam That’s very cool!  

Thora    00:39:14    That is exciting. 

Adam I love that. That’s awesome. 

Thora Just remember the good advice of not ripping out the entire kitchen to lay the flooring. I had to. I’m sorry. 

Rachel It’s okay. 

Adam Oh, I was thinking it.

Thora Oh, were you really? I have no filter. It just comes out.  

Rachel    00:39:36    I don’t either. That’s another great thing with Kenny is he actually seems to, uh, appreciate my bluntness and my, my honesty, even when we’re in a call with 20 people and someone has, I don’t want to say an idea, but says, Hey, you know, we’re, we’re thinking about doing XYZ and, and I go, well, that’s dumb. I don’t, I really don’t think we should do that. I hate that. Like,  

Adam    00:40:04    Does he follow you and like explain it? Why? Like,  

Rachel    00:40:08    I mean, I will say that that particular trait has gotten me in trouble at work in the past. Um, but no, Kenny and, you know, honestly the whole, uh, executive team that we have, my, my team that I work with personally, um, is it’s just a great fostering environment. And they appreciate the fact that they, I think because they know if they ask me, I’m going to say what I really think, and I’m not gonna, you know, not say it and kind of privately vent to some rando about how awful I think the idea is, so.  

Thora    00:40:47    Yeah, I think it’s probably one of the most important things in a work environment. I would imagine, at least for me personally, if people valued honesty, then, you know, I think things would, would be, would work much more smoothly. Maybe?

Adam That would be so cool.  

Rachel    00:41:07    Well, I feel like I have that. So, um, I’m very, I know how lucky I am to be where I’m at. So  

Adam    00:41:16    That’s good. I’m glad. I think that’s about the time. 

Thora Yeah. 

Adam We really appreciate you being here with us today. 

Thora Yeah. Thank you for taking your time for us! Well, thank you all for listening today. 

Adam Thank you. 

Thora We had a great time. Any links for our guest in the show notes and the transcript of this podcast episode can be found on our website, carveresumes.com  

Adam    00:41:45    And we’ll see you next time with another awesome person with another sweet, cool job. Thanks for joining us. 

Adam & Thora’s Filler Word Counts*

Uh – 18
Um – 34
Like – 106
You know – 59

*DISCLAIMER: We only count our filler words. Guests are not expected to be professional speakers. I mean, we’re not, either, but we’re supposed to be… right?

You can find her services on https://www.pulsek9.com/

Her Facebook business page is https://www.facebook.com/PulseK9

And you can join either of her Facebook groups for tips here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/pulsek9tipsandtricks for pets and https://www.facebook.com/groups/479039953069376 for service dog information.

For more information regarding how the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) governs service dogs and the laws about them, visit https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Transcript:

Adam 00:00:11 Hi, this is Adam. This is Thora, this is Autism On Shift.
Thora 00:00:15 Where we talk to other autistics about what we do for work, where you work homie?
Adam 00:00:21 And we talk about other stuff too, but that’s the base outline. Join us.
Thora 00:00:26 All right. Today we are talking to Tara DuVal and Tara is not just a dog trainer, not any kind of dog trainer. She is a trainer for service dogs. Is that correct? That is
Adam 00:00:40 Sweet. Tell us about that. Cool!
Tara 00:00:43 Cool. So, um, I’m, I’m making the shift right now. So I’ve worked with a couple of service dogs in the past few years, but it’s been mostly pets because that’s what everybody has. Right. But now I’m, I’m making an effort to work more and more with service dogs. Cause there are plenty of people who need them and want them that takes a lot of time. Um, and it’s hard to do both at once because of the time commitments that each thing would need. So pets, pets versus service dogs. So just kind of throwing out some of the pets, looking for more service dogs,
Thora 00:01:19 Like some of us want to do. I mean, no, I love my dog.
Adam 00:01:25 He works with the mailman every day afterwards. Get that training. That’s right. Yeah.
Thora 00:01:34 Okay. So from my understanding, and I am completely not educated in this, but a service dog training is kind of like a 24/7 deal. Is that, is that right?
Tara 00:01:44 So it can be, um, and whoever has the dog, yes. Is doing it 24/7. Um, but the same is kind of true of pet dogs. So there’s a lot of similarities. It’s just how much training the service dog needs in comparison to a pet dog. So like a pet dog, you’ve got whatever is comfortable for your lifestyle and whatever issues you have. We can fix that more often than not. And then you’re good to go service dogs. You need to have all the good behaviors you need to have all of the tasks specifically trained to mitigate your disability. They need to be able to do that in your house. They need to be able to do that outside of your home, around all these different distractions. So it’s, it takes a lot longer to get them there.
Adam 00:02:33 I find if there’s problems, um, since we have a beagle, I just feed him and uh, although he’s fixed it. So it’s amazing.
Tara 00:02:41 That’s actually most of the solutions yes. Using food to fix it.
Adam 00:02:47 I wonder if that works on Thora. It absolutely does! Perfect test would be donuts. Today’s national donut day. They’re glazed donut day glazed donut day. Now, do you prefer Dunkin donuts or uh, Krispy Kreme or do you have another one?
Tara 00:03:04 So I grew up in Kentucky , so Krispy Kreme is kind of my go-to. Um, but I will take whatever donut is available to me. I’m not very picky.
Adam 00:03:14 Once it comes to donuts, it’s a donut people come on. Okay.
Thora: Okay. Back on the track. That’s awesome. Um, okay. So, so a service dog has a job. Does the service dog have like a person with a specific disability assigned to them before their training starts?
Tara 00:03:38 So most of my answer’s going to be that depends. Yeah.
Adam 00:03:43 Um, so it depends on what yeah.
Tara 00:03:45 You go, there’s a couple different ways you can go about getting a service dog. Um, most people, when they think of service dog, they think of the big, um, like guide dogs of America and Needs and things like that. The big 501C3 organizations, most of those guys do it, um, that you’re paired with a service dog and they train the service dog. And then after so many years you get the service dog sent to you. Okay. Um, some of those, uh, large organizations and most of the smaller organizations that aren’t quite as well known, um, we’ll do it kind of on a rolling entry type thing where they’ve got puppies that they’re raising to be service dogs and they’re teaching most of the basics. And once they hit a certain point in their training, they’ll pair it with whoever’s next on their waiting list.
Tara 00:04:36 Um, so, so that helps them move a lot of, uh, people through their waiting lists faster because you’re not waiting. It usually takes about two years to train a service dog from puppy to finished. Um, so if you go to a place that has them, where they pick the puppy at eight weeks old, and then you’re waiting because they’re training that specific dog to you, you’ve got a two year wait. Whereas if they’ve got a bunch of different dogs going through, and once they hit a certain point in training where they teach the tasks, then they pair with the person that’s maybe six months or to a year, depending on how many tasks you need trained and what, how difficult those are. Um, yeah, so a lot quicker. Um, and then there’s what I do, which is I work with people directly. So usually people already have a dog.
Tara 00:05:27 Um, and they’ve started to train them on their own because you can train your own service dog. Um, that’s a perfectly viable, reasonable way to do it. That’s legal and allowed, which a lot of people don’t know. Wow. Um, um, so I’ll hop in and I’ll help them. Um, what I’ve done in the past is I’ve just worked with them individually. Like I would with the pet dog client, they contact me. They’re like, Hey, I’m trying to train this and we’re stuck here. And these things and we’ll work for a couple of weeks to a couple of months then I won’t see him again. Um, when I’m moving more into, as a specific program where I find, you know, people who have like a puppy at least about six months old and we worked through the whole process of finishing up the puppy training, the basic obedience, the task work, all that stuff. And they’ll stick with me for about a year.
Adam 00:06:16 Okay. Now, do you have, like, do you have like some kind of special training or did you do, uh, do you have like a background in this and before like you started getting into it or, I mean, other pets, maybe
Tara 00:06:31 Dog training is an unregulated industry. So there are, there are some certifications for like trainers out there, but they’re all made up by other dog trainers. So they’re all vastly different from each one. So you can have a dog trainer certified by X group and a dog trainer certified by Y group. And they’re two completely different certificates. Um, so I got into it because I had a problem dog. Um, that’s how I got into training in the first place. Um, my, my husband named the dog Havoc on the car ride home from the shelter and, uh, jinxed him. So, um, uh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Aside from the intention it puts on the dog. It isn’t, it’s a good one. It fits him even now that he’s much, much better about everything. It still fits him. Um, but yeah, so I, you know, I’ve known about them and I was interested in them before.
Tara 00:07:34 Um, my, most of my family is some in some way shape or form attached to the medical field. So like my dad’s a doctor, my brother’s an EMT. My mom was a, um, occupational therapist before she had us kids. And, you know, so I’ve, I’m familiar with the medical field, um, tangentially. Um, so it’s always interested me too. Um, and then it’s just, it’s just dog training and trick training on steroids. Like that’s really all it is. You gotta be very precise and you gotta be able to be able to stick with it and be consistent for a long time to get them where they need to be. But, um, yeah, so it’s just kind of evolved.

Thora 00:08:25 That’s why he is the way he is because I’ve been Oh, feeding him every day. Adam: That, okay, good job, dude.
Thora 00:08:32 No, it is true. Although what’s funny is he, has, he, has, he did the whole puppy kindergarten thing, right? Like, you know, little socialization learning, basic manners, you know, uh, completely failed. He did, he does not socialize at all. He hates other dogs.
Adam 00:08:49 To be fair. We, we got him from like, somebody is from somebody’s backyard who was kind of separated from all, every, all the other dogs. So his, his, his, uh, puppy hood, if you will, uh, was it just, it was separated from his mother. And so he started out.
Tara 00:09:10 Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. That’s not good. Not ideal,
Adam 00:09:16 But we love him.
Thora 00:09:17 Yeah. He’s awesome. Mailman doesn’t think so, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, so, okay. So let me ask you, you said there are, you know, uh, group X trains, these people, or gives them a certificate that says such and such and group Y says something else or does something else, how do you choose one? How do you know who to pick if you were looking for a dog trainer?
Tara: Yeah. Uh, so there, my, my best advice for somebody looking for a dog trainer, uh, whether it’s for pets or service dogs is to go and see how much you can learn about them and see if you jive with them as a person. Um, there’s a lot of different ways to train a dog. So if you, if you dive too deep into the pet, into the dog industry, you’ll find all sorts of different factions of like, you can’t do this with a dog because it’s terrible, or you can’t do that with a dog because it’s terrible.
Tara 00:10:15 And, you know, various levels of, yeah, I can agree with that or not. Um, um, um, but the biggest thing, cause why most dogs fail is not because they’re not smart enough. It’s because people don’t understand what to do. So if you can’t learn from the person that’s teaching the dog, or if they have no intention of teaching you and they just want to teach the dog and hand handed off to you, and you’re good with that, and you never have to learn anything, it’s not going to stick. Nothing’s going to change, um, for service dogs in particular though, um, one of the better organizations that’ll give you a good, starting off point is called Assistance Dogs International. They certify a lot of people, um, and a lot of organizations and they’re a good starting point in order to be certified by them. You have to follow their rules and you have to have already trained. I think it’s like five or six service dogs that have been working for three to five years. So you got the catch 22 of you have to have already done the job to be able to be certified for the job to get the certification. Um, but they have a really high standard and they are international. So they’re a really good starting point. Very cool.
Adam 00:11:38 Awesome. This might be a dumb question, but does the dog is like a cert a certificate that goes along with the dog? So, you know, I mean, I mean, it’s, I don’t know. You’d have to bring them some places sometimes, you know, is it yeah. Do you ever have to like walk in and show
Thora 00:11:54 Them, Hey, my dog is allowed here because of this piece of paper here or what?
Tara 00:11:58 So no, that is a very hot button topic.
Adam 00:12:04 Um, that’s what I’m good at.
Tara 00:12:06 I mean, in the U S and it’s different for every country in the US uh, your right to have a service dog is protected by the Americans with disabilities act, right? So that’s actually probably, if you’re looking for what you can and can’t do with your service dog, the first place you want to start, um, they’ve got a pretty clear FAQ section on their website of what is, and is not legal. Um, but the issue with the certifications is if you go and you Google service dog, the first thing that pops up is like 10 different websites for certified. This certified, that certified the other thing for various levels of $0, I’ve seen upwards of $250 for the certifications. And it’s just a piece of paper that they send you in the mail. They’re scams, all scams,
Tara 00:12:53 Know, they are all scams. Um, some of the ones that are free are like a voluntary registration, and you’ve got one or two sites that are trying to do something helpful and good. Um, but the issue with that is you’re not legally obligated to have a certification at all. So no certification for the dog, no certification of anything else. Um, in the, the ADA lays it out, what qualifies them as a dog, what doesn’t qualify them as a dog. And you’re not like businesses, legally, aren’t even allowed to ask you to show anything like that, because it’s not, it’s not a thing. It’s not something that’s there.
Adam 00:13:31 So if other countries, do they have different rules as is, is it potentially as a possible that these places are trying to, uh, do they, do you know, some of these websites do international things, and they’re just trying to follow, you know, if they have $0 and give a certificate, or is that, is it yeah, sorry.
Tara 00:13:53 Most of the ones that I know of off the top of my head are just US-based. Okay. Um, and if, if they’re trying to do the right thing and trying to help people, they’ll say on their website somewhere that this is not an obligation, this is entirely voluntary, and this is not actually protect you makes sense. Um, it’s just something that you can have to help you feel better with because you can then point to, well, I, I pointed to a thing, you know, I, I put my information on the internet and now it’s there. Um, yeah.
Thora 00:14:26 So let me ask you about the difference between a service dog and like an emotional support dog. Are they doing
Tara 00:14:35 Okay? Yes. Very different. Uh, well, okay. Not very, very different, but there’s a very specific legal difference. Okay. Um, so an emotional support animal is any animal that gives you emotional support. So anything like all those people on the airlines that were getting hate from the airlines for bringing their peacocks and their hamsters or whatnot, they’re not technically wrong. Legally, those are all emotional support animals, because it’s an animal that gives them emotional support right. By existing. Um, so I’ve got ferrets all be emotional support animals. Yes. Sort of, yes. Uh, well, you can, so you, with your dog, they can be very emotionally unhelpful at some points. Yes.
Thora 00:15:24 Barking dog in a house full of autistic people is not ideal.
Tara 00:15:27 Exactly. So, um, you know, not, not every animal, a hundred percent of the time would necessarily qualify. Um, but in order to get the legal protections, to have an emotional support animal, um, cause they do have some different legal rights from your standard pet. You do have to be, um, you, you do have to have it signed off by a psychiatrist or a therapist or something like that. So those are very specifically for psychiatric stuff.
Adam: How cool.
Thora 00:16:00 Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea. I’m trying to think of, uh, what, um, well, like anxiety, you know, I mean, I could go to my doctor and be like, you know what? My anxiety is really high and I feel like a bunny would help.
Tara 00:16:16 Right. Well, I mean, that’s basically how it works. Um, because they, they have no legal, you know, there’s no standard of training for them. There’s no nothing. It’s just, I need to have something living with me to help me feel better. Whether it’s like anxiety, depression, PTSD, anything like that, autism, uh, but say you live somewhere where that’s a no pet housing. So that is how you can get that support that you need for your disability in a place where you can’t have it. So no pet housing is the only place now. Um, they just came out with a new law. Like I think it goes into effect in a couple of days, like brand new law for airlines, where they’re no longer allowing emotional support animals on them.
Thora: Oh, wow. Do you know why?
Tara: Because all the shenanigans that went down with these emotional support animals for the past couple of years,
Adam 00:17:11 I have my emotional support elephant. Then I’m bringing on this 87. I just my own, sorry.
Tara 00:17:22 Well, you know, to be fair to the airlines, I don’t think they understood the law when they said you could have an emotional support animal. Cause then they tried to put restrictions on it later when legally it can be any animal. And they were thinking everybody would bring a dog or a cat and then people started to bring other things.
Adam 00:17:37 And I think like everything that you start off with, uh, you know, trying to be helpful and then things get, you know, it. Yeah.
Tara 00:17:45 Yeah. And the other
Adam 00:17:48 Thing is just, yeah.
Thora 00:17:51 Okay. I can have an emotional support peacock and understand that that’s not going to be ideal on an airplane. Okay.
Tara: That’s right. Okay. And the other issue is that, you know, there is no training requirement for an emotional support animal. So that’s why you had all these issues with dogs, growling, barking, peeing on planes, attacking people, things like that. Um, it’s a very different, yeah. Yeah. And it’s, it’s hard on the animals. It’s scary. Cause they don’t know you, you, for a service dog, you do a ton of training before you take your dog on a plane. And most people with emotional support animals just, they want the sport. So they bring the animal, the sport, but it’s not a stuffed animal. Right.
Adam 00:18:33 Then all of a sudden the, the, uh, emotional support animal needs their own emotional support person. And then it’s a vicious cycle. And then again, the whole plan would be,
Tara 00:18:44 Yeah. So, so that’s, that’s emotional support animals. Um, so, so they’re, they’re only, you know, once this new laws goes into, into effect, um, they’re really only allowed in non pet housing. Um, and there’s some stipulations with that too. But, um, service dogs have, uh, training requirements and they have to be specifically trained in a task that mitigates or disability emotional support is not a task. It does not qualify as a task. Gotcha. So it’s good benefit, but doesn’t count.
Adam 00:19:23 Are there any things about your job that you, you know, well, dislike, I guess first, because I, you know, tell me both things that you absolutely love about it or, or dislike.
Tara 00:19:36 Uh, I love, I, especially now going more into service dog work. I love that I can help people get the support they need. Yeah. Um, cause even if like there’s a lot of people, especially with psychiatric disabilities who don’t realize they even qualify for a service dog. And once you have that service dog, you’re like, Holy shit, night and day difference from what you feel comfort wise when you’re out and about in public and what you can accomplish in your day. Um, I don’t know if y’all know the spoon theory, but they give you extra spoons. That’s awesome. Yeah. I love it.
Thora 00:20:12 Yeah. So batteries in my house because it’s easier for my daughter to understand.
Tara Well, that’s a good one. I like that. I like that. But yeah, it’s, it’s exactly the same thing.
Thora We just use battery instead of spoons.
Tara They’re like an external charger kit then. Yeah. They give you a little boost. Um, so, so I love that. Um, and I love working with dogs and I love working with the people. Um, the things I don’t like are the people, and this is a little more applicable to the pet dog world, which is another reason why I’m shifting, um, out of there as the people who just want it fixed and don’t want to do anything about it. Yeah. Most, most of the changes have to come from what you’re doing with your dog. Um, and then specifically for the service dog stuff, people who don’t understand the laws, but are adamant that they know them better than you. You can pull it up, like pull the ADA website up on your phone point, right. At the actual physical law. And they’ll still be like, no, you’re wrong.
Adam 00:21:22 That’s awesome. I think we all come across those people. Yeah.
Tara 00:21:28 They’re everywhere.
Thora 00:21:32 Well, someone’s got to teach me patience. Right.
Adam That’s right. That’s what I’ve been doing for the last 20 years.
Thora 00:21:47 Okay. So let’s talk specifically about autism then. Um, we all know that it’s got, you know, struggles and it’s got, you know, things that we like about it. Right. Um, you know, and it’s a balancing act every day. Um, so, so let’s talk about those. What are the struggles that you have specifically because of autism, and then let’s kind of, you know, slide on into, you know, how does your autism help you at work?
Tara 00:22:08 So struggles with it and work, um, executive dysfunction, uh, consistency and planning and doing things in like breaking it down into small enough steps that the dog can understand that you can understand and keep up with it. It’s all mandatory for training. And it does all something I very much not good at. Yeah. Um, so especially working with people, cause like in my head, I’ve got all this knowledge I’ve collected and I’m like, it makes sense to me, but breaking it down in such a way that I can explain it to another human, it doesn’t always come across as, as well either. Or I’ll info dump on people. Cause it’s, it’s, it’s become a special interest and I’ve turned it into a job and I get all excited. I get really into it. And then people are like, you can just watch them in the lesson. Like, Oh no, I don’t. I’m like 10 steps back and I forgotten it all.
Adam 00:23:05 Should I have been taking notes? Where’s my head. I get that a lot. If they just ask one question and I miss it, misinterpreted it as they want to know everything I know. And it’s just, you know, an hour later, just stop please. Yes.
Tara 00:23:23 Yes. That is uh huh. Yep. Yep. I have done that.
Tara 00:23:29 Um, so the, the that’s probably the biggest struggle, struggle working with dogs and people directly. Um, but then marketing and sales calls, like somebody has got to find out how I have a service dog program and how they can be a part of it. Somehow. I, they, they don’t just magically appear at my door and say, Hey, a book. I’m not sure why, but that’d be so handy. But, um, so that, that’s, that’s my other struggle for keeping it a viable business.
Thora Um, how do you, how do you mitigate that? Um, cause I’d really love to know, especially, um,
Tara uh, not, well, no. So for, uh, cause a lot of it has to do with energy levels too, right? Like I’m much better at a lot of this stuff if I have more energy than on days when I don’t have any energy. So, um, big part of it is working with myself instead of trying to work against myself.
Tara 00:24:40 So I have an idea for what I need to get done every week. Um, and I’ll have days kind of set up and if I have lessons in person with somebody or a resume with somebody, um, those are like hard times that cannot change barring, you know, super extreme circumstances. Yeah. Um, and then I kind of just fit everything in around it. So I’ll know like this week I have to get X, Y, and Z done. Um, if it’s super time sensitive, uh, then I’ll know to try to fit that in first. Um, and it doesn’t always work well. I’m still working on making that system more productive for myself. Um, and then like high energy things I try to not have on other days with high energy stuff. So if I’m doing yeah, in-person lesson days, I don’t want to take a sales call. I don’t want to do it.
Adam 00:25:33 I’ve always done, you know, I’ve called it something different because like I said, I’m undiagnosed and this is great for me because I’m learning so much, you know, talking to people like, it’s funny, like I’ll go through like 20 years or 30 years of stuff in my head, as you say things, you know? But, um, I don’t, I forgot what I was going to say now, but
Thora 00:25:52 No, but like that lining up and the, in the distribution of tasks in such a way, like almost as like a priority, like here’s priority one and they go here, here and here and then here’s priority two and they kind of go around them, but they still have to get
Adam 00:26:05 That’s. What I was going to say is I’ve always, I’ve always come up with, at some point in time, I came up with, I really can, I got to get one thing done per day, like one big thing done per day and that’s it. And all the other stuff it sort of has to be on a rolling calendar, you know, it’s like maybe, maybe, but, but I feel accomplished if I get that one big thing done. And then I, that gives me the energy to do all the other stuff, you know? Yes. Yes. Cause the podcast
Tara 00:26:35 Lists for days, people are watching the podcast. Won’t see it here because they’ll be listening, but that’s my rolling list of marketing ideas for like topics I want to post about on Facebook or talk about, um, cause I’ll do lives in, in my, uh, Facebook groups for people. Um,
Adam 00:26:52 I’m sorry to interrupt you. Uh, for our listeners. It’s a huge, it’s like a whiteboard. Yeah. And so it’s, it’s, that’s awesome. And it’s filled up.
Tara 00:27:01 Yeah. It’s probably got like 30 different things on there. So I’ll like
Thora: For our listeners, what’s your Facebook group? If you don’t mind people joining.
Tara: Yeah. So I’m doing a free challenge next week and that’ll probably, I don’t know how quickly you guys get these out. Um, but that free challenge group will turn into my Facebook group. Um, so I can send you a link cause depending on how soon people see this, the name might change. Oh, okay. Um, but if you look for my Facebook page, just like my, my business page, it’s Pulse K9, P U L S E letter K number nine. Okay. Um, and I’ll have them linked on there too.
Adam 00:27:43 Okay. So we’ll figure out how to link it into, put it in the show notes. Okay, perfect. Yeah, because it will come out, you know, a little bit later, so, and we’ll keep in touch with you and make sure that it has,
Tara 00:27:55 I haven’t decided what the name of the group is going to be once the challenge is over. So nobody knows what that name is yet. Not even myself. Um, but it’ll be, um, something like free tips for, for service dogs working with me. Um, and I have a pet dog equivalent. That’s just training tips with Pulse K9, dog training. Awesome.
Tara 00:28:22 I’ll do like, I have that list and I’ll just jot things down as they come to me because usually they’re coming to me. I won’t have the time because it’ll be in the car ride or something or at the gym or whatever. Um, or I’ll I’ll, I won’t have the energy to do anything with them yet. Um, so on the days I do have a lot of energy and I got like, I’m just super, super in the flow of things. I can just knock out like a ton of marketing stuff and just have it ready to go. And then I can send it off on days when I’m not as not as prepared.
Adam 00:28:53 That’s good. Yeah, I do. Um, and I, I drive a lot, um, for my work and I use, uh, I use like an audio recorder as things come up.
Thora 00:29:06 Similar works pretty well for me. Yeah. I have, I’ve always have a computer in front of me, so I think it’s Google. Keep my keep notes. Everything goes,
Adam: Yeah. Thanks. You’ve always have a phone in your hand.
Thora: Something some screen in front of me, it’s either this computer, my work computer or my phone.
Adam 00:29:26 If you had Google goggles, you could just always,
Tara 00:29:31 I don’t think I get anything done. I’d I’d have like YouTube or Tik TOK or something on there and I’d never get anything done.
Adam 00:29:42 I dream about that stuff, but I can’t actually do it. I always ended up having to be doing something that gets something done. And I always like dream about like, just like relaxing and sitting around and like watching like bingeing on Netflix or something. And then I look at my Fitbit and it says, you know, this week you sat down for one hour, like,
Thora 00:30:06 Okay. We recently had a four day weekend and I think the total resting minutes of his Fitbit was something like, it was like 80 something minutes for the entire four day weekend. He does not sit down.
Tara 00:30:23 I want to somewhere, but also I feel like I get things done. I don’t even know if I get anything done now. I don’t know.
Tara 00:30:33 Oh man. Now my challenge is once, once I’m going and I’m working on something, I’m usually good, but it’s getting started. That’s where, that’s where it really
Thora Initiation. That is a hard one for me. You know, for me, I think it has to be external. If it’s external, I can get up and do it. Like Adam needs something and I will get up and do it. Uh, my boss needs something like for me to clock in everyday, you know, I do that. Um, but like I think I went four months with the intention to like, um, clean out my dresser and, and get rid of stuff I didn’t need and rearrange the things that I did and I still haven’t done it.
Tara: It’s yep. Yeah. Same, same initiation.
Adam 00:31:27 Yeah. Now what was the, uh, the mom, uh, thing
Thora 00:31:30 Override. We had, we had another guest who introduced us to the concept of the mom override,
Adam 00:31:35 Which I call it the parent override personally. But I did stay home with the kids for six years. So, you know, it’s like this I’m like, everything is like, it’s not just moms guys. Wouldn’t tell him what the mom override. But the
Thora 00:31:52 Idea is that when somebody else is in need or somebody else’s struggling or somebody else has something going on, it’s like, you can completely put all your stuff to the side and like be there to help them. Like I thought that was such a really good like concept for her to put a word to.
Tara: That’s a, that’s one of the big benefits of having a service dog. Um, because, um, I’m not a mom unless you count fur babies. Uh, but, but if my dogs need something that then, then it’s done, we’re doing the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and absolutely applies. Yep. Yep. And, and with, with, you know, like the training process, they may not get the most productive thing done, but we’ll at least go out and do something. Um, so, you know, that’s, that’s one way to help kind of build those habits and things is just having a plan to follow with your dog.
Thora 00:32:45 Yeah.
Tara 00:32:48 That also does not count as a task though. That is just a fun benefit.
Thora 00:32:53 And the routines I imagine are probably helpful, right? Like they have an expectation. We’re going to walk every day about this time. And yes, the routines are good for both of us. All of us dogs and humans, mostly autistic humans, but yes.
Tara: Yeah, yeah.
Thora: I read something recently. I thought it was so funny. It was, um, if you, if you have trouble like taking your medication at a specific time every day, what you do is you take your medication and you feed your pet. I think the cat was the example, but you feed your pet at the time you take your medication. And if you forget, if once it becomes a routine, if you forget your pet will not forget and they will come to you expecting a treat and you’d be like, Oh yeah, I need to take my medicine.
Tara 00:33:33 So that is a task!
Thora: Really?
Tara: That is something that you can train your dog to do to help you. It’s a little legally wishy-washy if you want to take them in public, unless you need to take your medication several times through the day and you need to remind her in public. Um, cause usually that’s mostly something people do at home. Um, but I know some ADHD medications got to take several times throughout the day. Um, so that, that is, it’s one of those, there’s really fuzzy tasks that count, but don’t really, but can, and can’t and can get you in trouble in theory, if your dog does something wrong, but technically you count. And then there’s more specific ones that are, you can easily say, okay, I understand why you need the dog in public. Got it. That makes perfect sense.
Thora 00:34:21 I didn’t think it I just read it somewhere,
Tara 00:34:25 But they’re smart. They’ll know. They let me know when dinnertime is,
Adam 00:34:32 My kids do that.
Thora 00:34:36 Yeah.
Adam 00:34:36 No, actually I’m, I’m, I’m a very routine person. So like, it was funny cause our, our daughter has a dual, uh, autism and down syndrome and uh, it was perfect for me because routine was good for her and I love routine. So I’m like, Oh, I’ll do whatever for routines. I’m just that guy to help her out.
Tara: Nice. Perfect. Yep.
Thora: Okay. So the last question is, is, you know, dream job, right? Like, but I feel like we don’t even need to ask you that question unless you’re gonna like come out of left field with something random. I feel like you’re doing the thing that you want to be doing, right?
Tara 00:35:21 Yeah, No, this is, this is, this is it. I get to work with dogs. I get to work with people. I get to help, help them, you know, live, live better lives, you know, um, and not, not feel as stuck really. That’s the big one I’ve noticed with like psychiatric service dogs specifically, um, and help them understand that they can have more help than it. It’s there for them.
Thora: Nice.
Adam: That’s very cool. I love it. Well, Hey Tara, thanks so much for hanging out with us, talking to us about what you do and um, I really enjoyed having you.
Tara: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun.
Thora 00:36:04 To the listeners, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, next time we’ll have another awesome guest with another fun job. You can find the show notes and our guests links on our website www.carveresumes.com and includes the transcripts for today’s show. And we’ll see you later.

Adam & Thora’s filler word count*

Um: 17
Uh: 19
Like: 52
You know: 32

*DISCLAIMER: We only count our filler words. Guests are not expected to be professional speakers. I mean, we’re not, either, but we’re supposed to be… right?

Jess is also an Autistic Advocate. You can connect with her on Instagram here. And here is her art page.

Transcript:

Thora:    00:00:11    Hi, and welcome. 

Adam: Welcome. You’re listening to Autism On Shift. 

Thora: I am Thora 

Adam: I’m Adam. 

Thora: What we do here is we talk to autistic folks about what we do for work. So they’re on shift. Get it? But we also want to shift the way we think about what people with autism are capable of. Exactly. Yep. 

Thora: So today we are talking to Jessica St. Pierre, Jessica has been, um, actually we’ve spoken to Jessica once before.

Adam: We have, so welcome back. 

Thora: Yes, welcome back.

Adam: Thank you so much for joining us again again, right. 

Thora: We totally didn’t mean to waste your time, but, um, for the listeners, Jessica so graciously agreed to hang out with us again, because she was our very first interview and we completely sucked as hosts.  

Jess:    00:01:09    That’s not true. Um, I don’t think that’s true, but I didn’t listen to the recordings of, I’ll believe you guys, but I’m glad to be here again.

Adam: Thank you. And you’re very kind.   

Thora:    00:01:17    Thank you. We appreciate it. Um, so Jess is an Executive Assistant and she’s going to tell us all about what that means, and then we’re going to ask her some seriously personal questions. 

Adam: Yeah!

Jess: Should I be scared? 

Thora: No, no, they’re not personal. We’re talking about work. 

Adam: How many teeth do you have? 

Jess: Even I don’t know the answer to that. 

Adam: See, that’s the right answer. That was correct. We need some sound effects. 

Thora: Uh, okay. So, um, so tell us about the life of an executive assistant. What does your day-to-day look like?  

Jess:    00:01:57    Um, my day-to-day consists of a bunch of different tasks that are not necessarily related to each other. Um, as the, uh, the word assistant says I’m, I’m there to help an executive in this case. Um, it’s my boss. So she’s the owner of the company I work for. It is a, um, doula agency. So basically, yeah, it’s really exciting. It’s actually really fun. So basically my boss has this team of doulas who she sends, uh, to customers who need help with prenatal and postnatal, help, whatever. So I help her out with, uh, creating systems or, you know, helping the doulas, get in touch with the clients, but also, you know, making appointments for her. You know, it’s a bunch of little tasks, there’s a lot of administrative, uh, paperwork as well that I help her with. So yeah, my work is kind of all over the place.  

Adam    00:03:08    That’s great though. You don’t want to get bored and doing one thing over and over again, although some people do like that.  

Jess:    00:03:15    Yeah. I do enjoy some of my tasks more than others, but, um, for me it really keeps it fresh and I was, uh, kind of explaining to you guys the last time I do, I do feel like I’m the company’s mom in the sense that, you know, whenever something goes wrong, people are going to come to me and I’m supposed to fix it. Uh, so that’s the administrative part of that, but I also make sure, um, you know, I know I know the team, so whenever someone calls me and they’re like, you know, I’m looking, we’re looking for someone to be with us during birth or things like that. Um, I have to get to know these people and also think, uh, you know, who would be a good match in my team. So organizing the meeting between them, but also making sure that they will, um, have a good time together. You know, um, the entire team is awesome, but people have different personalities. So  

Adam    00:04:12    That’s interesting. That’s kind of a cool, you’re the matchmaker. Matchmaker, matchmaker make me a match.  

Jess:    00:04:20    I think I’m a pretty good judge of personality, which is kind of funny since we always say that, uh, autistic people are kind of blind to those things. I don’t know if I’ve developed a stronger sense to make up for whatever I’m missing, but I, yeah, I think I’m a pretty good, good judge of personality. So, um, for me, that’s, that’s a pretty easy,  

Adam    00:04:45    I think my, uh, autistic people are actually better at seeing through the baloney and, and you know what I mean? Right.  

Thora:    00:04:53    Like what’s underneath, like what’s the actual like intentions and there’s exactly, and there’s a whole conversation around, you know, uh, empathy and autism. There is, I mean, a lot of people have it like, Oh, autistic people don’t have empathy. Well, we know that’s not true. I mean, but of course then you have to have a conversation with people about what the difference is between cognitive empathy and, um, um, emotional empathy and reactive empathy and all of those other different types. Right? Like there’s not just empathy and that’s it.  

Jess:    00:05:29    Definitely, definitely. That’s a, that’s actually interesting because I’ve been, um, having conversations about this at work recently, in which, for example, I didn’t get into an argument with a customer, but, uh, we did not see on the same page on something. And I sent her a really, really, really long email explaining things and she was not happy and you know what, it’s fine. It’s all good. Um, we talked it out and, and everything, but, uh, I was really upset and when I’m upset, I try to give as much information to the person. So they change the, they understand my point of view because of how I like to be communicated to. Uh, but it, to them, it sounds like I’m not hearing what they’re telling me. I understand that, but yeah, in this sense, I’m, I think I’m a very empathetic person. It’s just, I feel things very, very strongly. It’s my reaction that does not fit, uh, the neuro more neuro-typical um, uh, I’m looking for  

Adam    00:06:36    Experience?

Thora Like the expression of that. 

Jess Yeah, exactly. 

Adam Oh, okay.  

Jess:    00:06:40    And it’s, it’s, it’s good because, uh, for example, that gave, uh, I gave my boss and I an occasion to, to discuss that. And we have, you know, been trying to, uh, incorporate every week kind of incorporate talks about how, you know, we’re both seeing things. So, uh, we, we have better communication.  

Adam    00:07:07    So you’re discussing the different perspectives that you see things as. Is that what you’re saying? That’s actually really cool. 

Thora I like that.

Adam Cause I remember, I’m sorry if I recall the first time we had talked that, uh, the interaction, was it, didn’t your boss ask you something that really helped, helped clarify the situation in the first place.  

Jess:    00:07:27    Yes. Uh, so I’ll get back to, um, what I was saying just after, but yes, indeed. Uh, she, she did ask me, I, it was actually after that conversation with a client, she was like, do you understand why this, your reply can be seen as, you know, whatever the client says it was? The fact that she asked me that really changed everything for me, because usually people just assume. Yeah. And she was like, we’re going to take time and see, um, you know, are we on the same page here? Even if you don’t feel like, you know, the customer would like you to feel, or I would like you to feel, you see why we feel this way. And she’s kind of open to doing this with how I feel as well, which is really awesome.  

Adam    00:08:11    It’s great. And I can see her doing such a good job as a doula, you know, having a doula agency with this personality. That’s fantastic.  

Jess:    00:08:19    And she said, you know, this, I actually cried when she told me that guys I’ve, I don’t, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard something like that in your life. But for me it was the first time someone told me that in the 33 years I’ve been alive, but she said, you know what, uh, she said, it’s not really fair. That you’re always the one that has to bend backwards for, uh, other neurotypes, you know, um, why, you know, she’s like, I want to understand, and I want to, I want to know why you think this way. And, uh, and then she went on and she was like, Oh, and I met this Argo therapist, you know, she with autistic people and she’s like, we should go meet her. We should have a  

Jess:    00:08:59    Meeting with her, see what we can do. So, so she’s really, um, motivated to, uh, to have, you know, that, um, our communication, 

Adam um, bridge the gap. 

Jess Yeah, exactly. Which is something, you know, I’m so thankful for that.  

Thora:    00:09:17    How amazing would it be to have, even just have some, a few random people be like, you know what, uh, I see how you have to bend. I want to bend a little too. That would be so helpful.  

Adam    00:09:32    Yeah. I was a bit emotional thinking about that. I was like, Oh man, I’m really though. It’s brilliant. And I wish I had some of that in my life. Right. I mean, cause I’m the same as you, I’m sorry. I’m the same as you, you know, where it’s the constant going over it and, and, you know, and it’s, you know, and I just recently, you know, I kind of say the situation, but it was, uh, just constant texting and texting and texting and, and here I am just stuck out there in the world waiting for something. And I’m stuck in my, you know, until, and I don’t think people realize that it’s, uh, you know, it’s painful. It’s just so much to go through. And then until I get like finally a response or something, and I don’t want to bother people, you know, cause not everyone understands and I get that it’s different for other people. Uh, but it is so it can be so much  

Thora:    00:10:27    It’s exhausting. Yeah.  

Adam    00:10:31    Yeah. And everything takes longer to get done when something like that is going on. I noticed that I am not as efficient as I normally am and I can be ultra efficient. And then when something like this happens, uh, I’m lost and people say, Oh,  

Thora:    00:10:48    You’re not lost, it just takes up a huge amount of your brainpower.  

Adam    00:10:51    There you go. There you go. Yep. Um, yeah, yeah,  

Jess:    00:10:55    Yeah. Yeah. It’s like your CPU is all used up for that. And it’s funny because before I was, before I knew that I was a autistic, I often wondered, I’m like, you know what? I feel like everyone around me has this infinite amount of, well, maybe finite, but a lot of a bigger bucket of energy that it can spend on helping others, uh, you know, what I’m making place for others in their lives. And I really wish I had this energy, but sometimes I don’t because I’m just always, you know, I’m, I’m always so tired. And now that I have my diagnostic, I understand where that comes from and I can actually, well, I actually, I, I try my best to, um, surround myself with people who understand and are willing to make some adjustments, but it’s not always possible obviously. Right.  

Thora:    00:11:52    So, so what about the idea of, and this is a conversation and it’s not work-related, but it’s just kind of us in the world related. Um, what about this idea of like taking up space, right? Like we should be able to allow ourselves to take up space and we are so often told that that’s not okay. I mean, not directly, you know, nobody says, I’m sorry, you can’t be standing right here, but you know, but the idea that like I have an opinion, I have a thought process. I have a perspective and I’m allowed to like, you know, exist in the world with that. Um, I, it, it would be, I don’t know. I just, I guess I just wish people were more like your boss that gave us that space.  

Jess:    00:12:36    Definitely. And I think, you know, the way that we sometimes communicate what’s going on in our mind, uh, people are gonna stick to that. You know, it’s like, you’re, you’re for example, I’m just saying, because I’m, I’m, I’m hyper verbal. And when I write, I write novels all the time and people are like, Oh, there she goes again, you know, writing all that stuff. And they’re not even going to read it because they just stop at the fact that I’m not communicating the way that they want me to communicate. So they’re just gonna take it and toss it. But this is how I feel sometimes. And, um, I understand that a lot of people do not, you know, they’re not aware of the way that we tend to communicate, but, uh, to those who, sorry, who are, uh, I don’t think they should stop at that. Um, they should, they should not point out the fact that, Oh, this was not communicated the way that I, I, I was expecting it. So I’m not gonna just not going to listen to it.  

Adam    00:13:37    Yeah. It’s not helpful at all. And not to mention, you’re not, you need to, everybody needs to put themselves in other people’s shoes a little bit, and everybody has to come a little bit towards each other. I mean, if you just stand in your spot and expect everyone to come towards you and nothing will ever be solved, I mean, it’s a, it’s a give and take, right? Yeah.  

Thora:    00:13:56    Well, I mean, it’s kind of like that entitlement we were talking about prior to the, you know, prior to the recording, you know, it’s, it’s like, you know, so many people stand in this space and they’re like, I expect this and when I don’t get it, then it’s not valid. And just that needs, that needs to change too, I think.  

Jess:    00:14:18    Yeah. And it’s, I think also people might not realize how much of that bending backwards we’re doing. Yeah.  

Thora:    00:14:28    Yeah.  

Jess:    00:14:30    You know, they they’re, they think that we’re not trying, which is not, you know, not true. Um, so you know, there, I believe that some people might, might say or might think, you know, why should I, should I try it if you’re not trying, but it’s like, I’m trying so hard.  

Adam    00:14:48    Yeah. You’re putting a lot more effort in than people realize. And it always, you know, a lot of times it occurs as much more difficult than I think anyone is ever going to realize. And that’s, you know, that’s fair, you know, it’s sometimes it’s hard to see those invisible things, you know? Um, uh, but if I, I guess, uh, you know, I guess that’s the point of a podcast like this, right. You know, to kind of open people’s eyes.  

Thora:    00:15:15    You know, in situations like that, I don’t give up, I don’t really give up, but what I have kind of done is yes, no, I try to stop bridging this communication gap, you know, it’s, you know, I have a thing to say, I will say that thing. And then however they take it, they’re going to take it. And, and it works and it doesn’t, and it depends on the person. And I, I don’t know, maybe I’m old, but I kind of don’t care anymore.  

Jess:    00:15:52    This is, I would say that this is how I’ve dealt with most of my life as well. Uh, it’s just that now I’m less confused about it and knowing that I’m autistic and that this is the reason why, but, um, now if I have something to say, it’s it, you’re going to know it. You’re, there’s no way I can keep that inside. Or, and if you, you know, if you don’t like the way that it’s delivered or, um, you can’t understand my point of view and, uh, you think I’m a bad person because of it. I honestly do not think I am a bad person.

Adam We don’t either. 

Thora You’re not.

Jess Sometimes I’m wrong, but, um, definitely. Yeah. It’s no, I totally agree with you.  

Adam    00:16:39    Um, so you were talking about, uh, you, you guys were talking about, um, how you’re more willing to say what’s on your mind. And it made me think about, you know, when you found your diagnosis, uh, did that, did that specifically change, you know, the, being more open to saying what there was for you to say, did that make any sense?  

Thora:    00:17:05    Perfect sense. And I’m just, I’m trying to determine who should be answering first. 

Adam    00:17:09    Okay. Cause when, when were you diagnosed? I mean, it was,  

Jess:    00:17:14    It was less than a year ago. So, uh, 10, I was diagnosed in, uh, March at the end of March.  

Adam    00:17:22    So I guess my question is, is finding that out. Are you more, does it help you to be more open and say what there is to say, just by saying it out loud? Like how does I know you, you know, with the interview you had with your current, your boss and everything, I mean, you told her right away, right?  

Jess:    00:17:42    Yeah. Yeah. I told her, uh, in the first email I sent her when I was applying on the job and then I about it during the interview as well. Uh, yeah, this is something we had discussed last time. Um, when I got my diagnosis, I was really excited. So I told my previous boss about it and, uh, yeah, I was very, very, very open with him. Uh, we had, uh, uh, a very good relationship, so I figured, you know, um, it’s all good. Um, I think it was all good for a while, but, um, in a sense he was, uh, this is what I was, uh, I was telling you guys last time is that he, I, I feel like he was, he walked into this with the feeling that there were things that can be fixed, uh, easily fixed. So, you know, I was like, you know, if you, if we do this this way, I’m going to be more efficient.  

Jess:    00:18:37    And he was like, all right. But then, you know, I was like the pandemic and everyone was burning out and some days I was not doing good. And he was like, well, why aren’t you doing good? I’m fixed. 

Adam Yeah, I fixed you.

Jess I fixed your autism. Now you should, you should just be normal kind of thing, which is, which is really funny because, uh, you know, there, I know there’s a lot of ADHD in his family and things like that. Maybe he’s neurodivergent himself. I don’t know. And he doesn’t know if he is, but I don’t know, it’s, it’s a possibility, but he sees things in a very, um, you know, if you tell me I do this, I get this result. This is what I’m going to get. And unfortunately, with, with autism, what you learn is that, you know, some days you, your abilities are kind of going up and down depending on a lot of factors.  

Jess:    00:19:29    Uh, uh, but I feel like when I was open with him, it didn’t go so well. Uh, in, in the sense that I did, um, my, my, uh, my job ended up being cut a few months later, but also, you know, there was the whole pandemic thing, and I know they were actually struggling monetarily, but there’s still this little thing at the back of my mind that I keep wondering, I’m like, what if I have not told him or whatever, uh, was that a key component in his decision to let me go, I have no idea, 

Adam But it’s unfair that you’re going to be stuck having to think about that stuff. 

Jess Yeah but, it would have been unfair as well, keeping, you know, working and then just having what I thought were just, you know, panic attacks, uh, every few months at work and I’m crying and I’m just like, , I know those are meltdowns.  

Jess:    00:20:24    And, you know, and I can actually look back and pinpoint exactly how they happened. Usually it would be when, uh, you know, I’m working on something and then something else happens and then, Oh, can you do this as well? And can you do this as well and get, and then it’s just it piles up and then boom. Um, so I, you know, it, it gave me a way to understand myself better and I did try to work it out with my boss. You know, we, we did come up with really good systems, uh, for example, you know, he would tell me something and I would just forget. And so the, what, what we worked out was, uh, always write down everything and I’m super efficient when I write down everything, because then I have a list and I’m really excited to go through it. Um,  

Adam    00:21:15    We both would love those tasks. Oh, I have a list sitting over in the dining room table and it’s, it’s all complete, but I hadn’t thrown it away because it’s all checked off and it felt really good. I’m like, I don’t really want to throw it away yet. It feels so good. It’s done.  

Jess:    00:21:29    That’s how I feel as well. But, you know, uh, it, it helped and it helped me. And I guess it helped him in a way too, to understand these things as well, but it just in the end, it didn’t work out for, you know, for pandemic reasons and for whatever reasons, but I’m still glad that I said it. I’m still, I’m still glad that I said it. And I, I wouldn’t take it back because I know I would be very unhappy.  

Adam    00:21:56    You have to be honest with yourself. And I mean, uh, honest with yourself, isn’t the right word. Is it?

Thora Yeah. It is. I mean, authentic, but yeah. 

Adam Okay. Yeah. All right. You gotta say what there is to say.  

Jess:    00:22:09    But what about you, Thora? Uh, cause you said  

Thora:    00:22:13    I feel like it’s allowed me to kind of pick and choose, whereas before it was, there was so much of this, um, I have something I need to get across and people either don’t care or they don’t listen or they misunderstand, or they think I’m saying something else entirely. And then there’s just this kind of general sense of dismissal. So then I was just, yeah, so then it was just this, it was, it was just me just insisting over and over and over again that I am heard, you know? Um, and now I think after having been diagnosed and, and kind of having more understanding, I don’t have to insist, I just say what there is to say. And in the times where I know that the things I have to say aren’t going to be helpful or aren’t going to produce anything, uh, you know, effective or good, then I just don’t. 

Jess Just let go.

Thora Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I’m not fighting constantly because I didn’t understand why I wasn’t being heard.  

Adam    00:23:11    Not as much brute force.  

Thora:    00:23:12    It was very much brute force prior to my diagnosis. Yeah. But I think having an understanding now allows me to kind of pick my battles.  

Jess:    00:23:21    Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good way of seeing it, I guess. Yeah.  

Adam    00:23:25    One thing I remember you before the pandemic, or at least at the beginning, you were kind of doing half and half, am I right? Like half outside of your home and half in your home, is that correct?  

Jess:    00:23:36    Yeah. For most of the pandemic I’ve been working from home, but in this job that I have right now with the doulas, I do 50 50, I work part-time, I don’t have a full time job right now, which is what I was looking for when I looked for another job, just so you know, because everything is so overwhelming right now. And also because I am in a place where I can afford. And I’m really, I understand that I’m very, very lucky to be in this position at this moment. It’s the first time in my life that I can do that, but I’m, you know, I’m, how can I say that I’m enjoying the fact that I can. Um, but, I work two days in the office, which is in a children’s clothing store, baby clothing store, uh, and two days from home.  

Jess:    00:24:28    Okay. So, uh, the two days that I do get to work in a more, you know, noisier environment, it’s a very small store. And usually it’s just me and the owner of that store plus, you know, um, the clients, whenever they walk in, but it’s usually with very young babies, so they’re asleep and it’s, it’s not that loud, but it does get loud. And I’ve, I’ve had these shoes, uh, especially around Christmas time when Christmas music was playing. And I was, you know, everyone’s tired around the holidays. It’s just, you know, there’s no sunlight, we’re all like,  

Adam    00:25:05    So  

Jess:    00:25:06    I don’t know. I am, I don’t know about you guys, but  

Adam    00:25:09    Think about a lot of stuff going through your head and trying to get everything done.  

Jess:    00:25:14    So, you know, I feel like if I had to work four days in the environment, it would be too much. Yeah. Uh, I think that it, to the, you know, the 50 50 is, uh, is fine for me right now. There’s weeks where it’s a little more difficult, um, because I’m used to working in more of an office environment in the past few years, which is quieter, I guess, than a store. But, um, yeah, for, for me right now, this is kind of the best, um, compromise that can make, I guess, because I do get to be a little social, uh, which is good, but I also get to be not social except for the clients of course, but that’s just, you know, that’s part of the job. I send, if I can send an email instead of calling, I’m going to do that for sure.  

Thora:    00:26:07    Yep. I get that.  

Adam    00:26:09    Well, yeah. And that makes sense too, that, I mean, the doulas that you’re sending out would be, you know, they want, they need that personal one-on-one, as opposed to, you know, you wouldn’t have to, an email would make sense too, so there’s nothing wrong with that.  

Thora:    00:26:22    Um, so, so let’s kind of lead into, because I imagine as an executive assistant, you have a lot of, um, uh, a lot of priorities, a lot of stuff that requires organization. Can we talk about like that part of your job and then your executive functioning and how you kind of make those two fit together?  

Jess:    00:26:44    The basic, the basics of my job, I, I would say organization and I am definitely someone who struggles with executive functions. Um, so task initiation, sorry. And, uh, you know, uh, short term memory, things like that. So I have had to, uh, throughout the years kind of work up, uh, systems, uh, so I can remember things and also prioritize because, um, one of the, one of my big issues, as well is task switching. So if I’m doing something really, you know, it’s, it’s not important, but I’m so focused on it. It’s I know there’s something bigger I should be doing, but I can’t get to that bigger thing until like, uh, I finished a small thing. So, uh, I, I do use, uh, quite a few apps like Trello or To Do, uh, things like that, uh, Wonder List when, when it existed, it’s, it’s it merged with To Do Microsoft now, but, um, these really helped me out because I can set a timer and I can set, uh, you know, there’s an order in which I can put things and I can put a sticker.  

Jess:    00:28:01    So I have a visual of, you know, what, if I see an, usually I would write the, uh, the client’s name and then I have all their information on there. And then I’m like, okay, what do I have to do with this? You know, this name it’s. Um, so, um, I have, you know, organization systems like this, um, and it’s really, really made a difference in how I work. Um, I apply those things in real life, on and off as well. I shouldn’t, I should stick to it more. Um, it’s, it’s more that my, my partner is, uh, you know, is stressed out by lists, so. 

Adam Oh, really? 

Jess If I make them, uh, they’re for myself. So it’s, 

Adam Well, they aren’t that bad cause I don’t, I don’t see little sticky notes all over your walls or anything like that. So 

Jess Yeah, I do tend to keep them mostly on my, on my phone.  

Jess:    00:28:56    Um, but yeah, my calendar, my calendar on my phone is like a Christmas tree. It’s every kind of colors and, you know, everything is color coded and everyday has like tons of stuff. So I’m guessing you don’t, I’m guessing you don’t share that calendar with your partner? 

Jess No, I think if he just saw it, he would freak out. We’re, we’re kind of, we’re kind of similar but different and, uh, he’s, he’s not autistic, but, um, he does have OCD, so he like, he, uh, he will stress out if he sees, you know, has to do something. He’d rather just, you know, do it whenever he feels like it, but not, it can’t be forced. 

Adam It can’t be a scheduled thing. Yeah. I get that. 

Jess It’s like, if I don’t force myself, I won’t do things. So I have to. I, I know, uh, yeah, I used to be worst procrastinator.  

Jess:    00:29:51    Uh, when I was a younger, you know, I would do my homework the night before and freak out. And then at some point in my twenties, I kind of realized that I was very unhappy doing this. And once I found those systems, I really felt like a lot better. So I was like, Oh, I’m just, you know, it sucks while you’re doing it, but it, it sucks less than freaking out and panicking. And spending so much energy just being like, Oh my God, why didn’t I do it yesterday? Um, but yeah, it, it really helped me out at work and it helped me get into more complex positions at work as well. I feel like I’m getting more respect taking on more responsibilities. And, um, I feel like people see me as a, you know, someone they can count on, which I did not feel when I was just, you know, by myself, what else? Kind of crutches, but they’re not really crutches. I feel they’re just, uh, tools to help me function, you know, properly. And it’s, it’s really awesome.  

Adam    00:30:57    I think, so I thought, I always liked the idea of having like a, a robot body I’d like to keep my head, but you know, the robot body, there’s nothing wrong with being able to lift an extra few hundred pounds or something. You know, I don’t want every part robotic, you know, I like my feet.  

Thora:    00:31:14    My thing is like my thing with the organization. And it’s not so much organization because I don’t have  

Adam    00:31:22    Organizational skills. I’m just kidding. Sorry.  

Thora:    00:31:26    Uh, you know what I do, but it’s like, it’s like, that’s one of those mind switch things. Like I have to put myself in organizational slash prioritizing mode and then I have to 

Jess There’s a mode. Yeah. 

Thora And then I have to create the whole structure of everything while in that mode. And then I can turn that mode off and just follow the outline.  

Jess:    00:31:47    Exactly. Yeah. That’s exactly how I work as well.  

Adam    00:31:49    And I think, yeah, I was going to say you guys are similar because, um, you know, when you’re talking to like the procrastination and stuff, like, I ain’t even got Thor shirt at one point in time. I think it was, uh, with the pro it was not procrastinator. It was pro-crastinator, she was the pro at it, but honestly in the last, even the last six months, but you know, over the last year we’ve done so many things that I, you know, I’ve watched Thora do more and more, uh, as she’s gotten some of her own structured things. And she’s more happy just like you, as she’s doing things as they come, as opposed to kind of sitting them off to the side. Like in any time I’ve seen you, you know, be like, you know, you’re like, you know, those days where we don’t want to do things, we just let them go. It’s that, uh, it’s the toilet bowl, you know, it just goes down and, and worse and worse if you don’t take it on in that moment and get it completed. Um, you know, so I’ve definitely seen that for you as well and spectacularly done. So in the last six months, a year, I mean, do so much. And it’s neat to watch. Honestly,  

Thora:    00:32:54    I got, I got my diagnosis just over a year ago  

Adam    00:32:59    And that’s, that’s what I’m saying. It’s like some of the understanding of yourself, you know, it makes a big difference. That’s what I was curious earlier too. But yeah,  

Jess:    00:33:05    I don’t know if I was discussing that with you guys last time, but I know this is something I often think about. I’m not good at working out. Um, but if I get an app or an, a goal, uh, it’s a lot easier, but for example, I love running on the treadmill, but I absolutely cannot do running outside because on the treadmill I have steps and I can see how, how well I’m doing. Uh, if I run outside, I know I’m doing something good, but it’s so, you know, um, uh, 

Thora Ethereal? 

Jess Yeah, it’s yeah, it’s, it’s not tangible. So I don’t care. I have, I have my Fitbit, if I go for it, go for a walk  

Jess:    00:33:49    Walk without the Fitbit. It’s like, Oh, it didn’t count. I feel like if we find tools, um, that are similar to that for work, uh it’s, it’s actually really helping us. And, um, yeah, like good habits. And, uh, this is what motivates us. I feel like a lot of, you know, neuro-typical, people are motivated by success or money, uh, things that I do not personally feel very, um, you know, motivated by personally, I don’t know, I’m not talking for every autistic person, but, uh, of course it’s nice to have a little money. Of course it’s nice. But like, I, this is not what I, I crave, so yeah, for me, yeah. It’s a, it’s a better motivator, so yeah, really thankful for those apps in, uh, I guess in like in the era we live in, uh, for that make our work easier, I guess.  

Thora:    00:34:54    Absolutely. Can we talk about some concrete examples that your boss, um, does to help you, uh, and support you in your job?  

Jess:    00:35:05    Um, well, first I guess the 50 50 arrangement, uh, letting me work from home on certain days, uh, is one of those. Uh, but also, you know, um, if I do tell her that, for example, I’m getting a sensory overload or something like that, she will, um, she will try to, um, to, to address those things. Um, I guess it’s, it’s good that we talk about it outside of when it it’s happening, because as you guys know, when you’re in sensory overload, you’re not always asking nicely.  

Thora:    00:35:42    Yeah.   I don’t know anything about that.

Jess:    00:35:48    When I feel like I’m able to voice it, it’s because I’m already at this, in this place where I’m not feeling good at all. And I feel like I’m being attacked or something like that. Although it’s not so much  

Adam    00:36:01    Some good advice though, to think about for everybody. It’s just, you know, when you know that that’s something that you deal with is to maybe discuss it with people that are around you and people that are willing to work with you when, when it’s not happening, you know?  

Jess:    00:36:14    Yeah, exactly. So of course we can discuss it when it’s happening and what it does happen. And I’m always trying to remind her that I’m not angry at her. It’s just at the moment I’m kind of in fight or flight mode, but yeah. Um, it’s, it’s helped to talk about it outside of when these things are happening. Um, so coming back to it, but also by being open, upfront and open from the beginning for me, I know it’s not, you know, it’s, I don’t think that everyone can come out as autistic at work. And I understand that it’s, it’s definitely not easy for everyone. Uh, I’m in a very, very lucky position where I can be open about these things, but it’s really, really made a difference. It really made a difference, uh, compared to all the million other jobs I’ve      

Jess:    00:37:03    Held in the past where, uh, I always quit because I did not feel, uh, I belong, uh, in these places, but looking back it’s also because I could not express my needs. And, uh, it’s in that sense, I don’t think it’s, um, my, my previous boss’s or team’s fault because, you know, if you don’t know what’s going on, you can’t necessarily address these things. But, um, I think that being upfront about it has completely changed the game in, in, in my, uh, experience.  

Adam    00:37:40    Well, that makes a lot of sense, cause it’s not just, I mean, and you got to think that’s, it’s not just about you, it’s the people around you. So, and I tell people all the time, it’s like, you know, I want you to be honest with me, you know, of course that’s why I’m saying, I want you to be honest with me because I’m not being honest with you. I’m not, you know, I’m not open at work, like, you know, and stuff and it’s, um, but it’s, uh, that’s not very fair for people around me who don’t get to, if they would want to be helpful, but I assume they wouldn’t because that’s what I’ve dealt with in my life, you know? Um, so I think it’s, um, I think it’s probably very helpful to say, Hey, this is what’s going on. And then other people, you know, you expect it both ways, you know, and I guess that’s what I’m saying.  

Thora:    00:38:24    In an overarching sense. That’s exactly what we’re up to here. Yeah. I mean, I want, I mean, yes, of course our audience is likely going to be autistic people who are interested in what we do for work and how we, you know, how we operate at work and how do we manage our executive dysfunction and all of that good stuff. Um, but I really hope that, you know, neuro-typical people listen and, and try to get an understanding and try to see that, you know, what you, and for those of you, neurotypical people listening, you know us 

Jess You’re awesome. 

Thora You know, us. We’re out there, you might not know that we’re autistic, but we are there and it it’s helpful. Um, for us, if you make space for us, I guess, is what we’re up to.  

Adam    00:39:16    Word.  

Jess:    00:39:19    We’re very like, um, I think we have a lot of great qualities as, as a worker, you know, the, the ones of us who are, um, you know, uh, have a job and hold a job. I think we have a lot to bring to teams of different people. It’s just, I feel like there’s a side of us that is often really, um, how can I say that? Like, I’m, I’m often told, you know, I’m, I’m such an amazing worker when I start a job and I’m masking, you know, like 100%, and then they’re like, wow, you’re so awesome. Like they can’t get over how awesome I am until, until I, you know, some, some less savory sides of my autism come up and then they’re like, Whoa,  

Adam    00:40:12    Whoa. I thought you were awesome.  

Jess:    00:40:15    I thought you were awesome. Why aren’t you awesome?  

Adam    00:40:17      

Jess:    00:40:20    I like everyone. I’m just a human being, you know, it’s like, I have really awesome sides and I have less awesome sides. And, you know, if, if this is what people are, that is my good side,  

Adam    00:40:35    Take another shot.  

Jess:    00:40:37    If people are realistic about, you know, if they know what to realistically expect from us, um, both the awesome and the less  

Thora:    00:40:49    The struggles, the things that, the things that we have to work harder for.  

Jess:    00:40:55    Yeah, exactly. And the fact that these things are going to exist no matter how you treat us, uh, if, if, if those things are accepted right from the start, I guess it’s gonna, it’s gonna make, uh, communication so much easier  

Adam    00:41:09    Humans accepting humans. Yeah. That does sound good. Let’s just, can’t we all just do that, right. It sounds so, uh, easy, idealistic, but, uh, it’s really, should be that easy, honestly. A little bit at a time. Right? 

Thora:    00:41:31    All right. So let’s wrap up with the million dollar question, you know, um, the parts of you that you have to work hard for. And we talked about the parts of you that are super awesome, um, and that are easy to show when you’re masking. Um, so given all of that, what would your dream job be like? What, where would you fit?  

Jess:    00:41:55    I feel like this, this is the most difficult question I’ve had to answer my entire life, you know. You get asked as a kid, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I’m always like, I don’t know. And I’m 33, almost 34. And I still don’t know. Um, I say ever since I got my diagnosis, obviously there’s, I’ve been thinking a lot about, uh, goals that I’ve had in life, um, that, you know, I’ve, I’ve always felt like one day I will be where I need to be to achieve those goals. Um, and now I am more realistic about it, uh, because I understand better with, um, what is, you know, what kind of drains my energy really quickly and things like that. Like, for example, yeah,  

Adam:    00:42:42    I was going to say, so are you saying you lessen those goals or you just adjusted those goals?  

Jess:    00:42:47    Well, it’s kind of both, both, and that’s the thing, you know, I’ve, I’ve wanted to be so many things in life. Uh, and I have, like, I know I told you guys, I have several degrees. I’m not working in any related jobs, jobs related to those fields. So I don’t think that my dream job is, uh, related to a certain field. I think it’s more related to, um, maybe the kind of tasks that I’m doing or the team that I’m part of. Um, and this I’m still kind of, uh, on the lookout for, I know that I like, uh, um, for example, repetitive tasks, like organizing, I really enjoy, you know, checking lists. I really enjoy. Um, but also I like a little bit of diversity. So it’s like, you know, kind of finding the perfect balance between these things. Um, I think that I’m awesome at customer service until I am not.  

Thora:    00:43:54    Yeah.  

Jess:    00:43:55    That I’m very aware of. Um, so, and it drains me to, to work with people I do always kind of end up in helper positions. Like I’m always helping others, which is really, um, fulfilling, but also really tiring. So I there’s, there’s like, there’s like a balance I need to find, and I’m still looking for that balance right now. My job is the fact that I’m not working full time is really helpful, uh, because I have energy left to do other things like art and, uh, things I do for myself one day, if I could live off, uh, you know, my art or, um, even like writing or, um, maybe, you know, something in relation to autism, I would love that. Um, it’s just, I don’t know if I have the executive functions to kind of, to kind of, uh, do that. So I would need to, I would need my own executive assistant. This is like one day. So I don’t know. I don’t define myself by the work that I do. Maybe one day I will. Um, but until now I haven’t, and I, I can’t seem to find the, you know, the one thing that is Jessica St. Pierre, you know, I’m, I like, I like to paint, I like to write, I like to make music. I like cats. I like, you know, I have a bunch of special interests as well. Um, but  

Adam    00:45:27    I think you’re further along than a lot of people, because I think a lot of finding that, you know, and it’s not necessarily the dream job, but necessarily where you fit in perfect for who you are. And a lot of that has to do with that self-reflection. And so, you know, you’ve noted all these things that are, uh, um, the skills that you have and what you’re good at and what fits best for you. And like, that’s, that’s the beginning of finding where you want to be. And I think that, so you’re, you’re doing pretty well. I’d say  

Jess:    00:46:00    I feel lucky that, um, I got my diagnosis during the pandemic in the sense that it has allowed me to self-reflect a lot more and unmask a lot more, uh, at home, uh, by myself not being stressed by external factors. Um, it’s just, yeah, it’s, it’s I realize now that I’ve been, you know, in this mindset for a year now almost, and the, I still have answers to find, and I still have a lot of questions to ask myself.  

Adam    00:46:34    Yeah. You think it will be a difficult, um, when we’re allowed to get back out into the world with people, um, that’ll be, uh, such a change from being able to learn things on your own and, and deal with them on your own?  

Jess:    00:46:49    Yes. And this was actually since the beginning of the pandemic, that’s been my worst fear. I mean, I, I understand the severity of whatever’s happening in the world right now, but, uh, on a personal level, the moment we went into lockdown, I was like, Oh no, it’s going to be so hard to get out of that. And since I’ve been kind of in and out of it, because, you know, they keep closing down everything and reopening, and it’s just every time I feel like it’s difficult and it’s really, I’ve just, you know, started working a little bit more hours at work. And I feel like I’m kind of already, uh, getting, not swamped, but kind of taken in that, uh, that routine, um, that doesn’t allow me for that kind of self-reflection as much. And I’m realizing it. It’s like, yeah. So I’m, I’m doing as much as I can at the moment while I know that.  

Adam    00:47:46    Yeah, no, that’s smart. I definitely understand that. Well, I think that’s it, but I really just want to thank you again so much for being here twice with us. We loved it so much. I mean, it, actually, the first one actually worked perfectly. We just liked you so much and we didn’t have a good excuse to bring you back. So  

Jess:    00:48:05    You guys don’t need, excuses, come on.  

Adam    00:48:10    I feel you, man. So thank you so much for being with us. Thank you, Jess. 

Adam Well, that was fun. Thank you guys for joining us today.  

Thora:    00:48:21    Next time. We’ll have another guest with another awesome job  

Adam    00:48:24    Yes, we will. That’s what we do here.  

Thora:    00:48:27    I just wanted to remind you that this podcast is produced by our business Carved Resumes. You can see the show notes in the podcast at carveresumes.com We are the autistic community’s expert resource for getting a job. 

Adam & Thora’s filler word counts*

Um: 28
Uh: 20
Like: 41
You know: 68

*DISCLAIMER: We only count our filler words. Guests are not expected to be professional speakers. I mean, we’re not, either, but we’re supposed to be… right?

Socials: Twitter & Facebook

Transcript:

Adam:    00:00:08    Hello! And welcome to the Adam show.  

Adam:    00:00:10    It’s not the Adam show. You said it was all about me. You said if I joined you, it would be all about me. Just kidding. Welcome people.  

Thora:    00:00:19    This is Autism On Shift. Uh, today we’re just going to tell you about our show. Uh, introduce ourselves. 

Adam: I’m obviously Adam.

Thora: I’m Thora. We are your hosts. We’re married and we run the show for funsies. 

Adam: We run the show. 

Thora: So the title of the show is Autism On Shift. So we are actually talking to autistic people at work about, yeah, well, not at work, they’re usually not at work when they’re talking to us.  

Adam:    00:00:47    It’s better than being on Facebook. We know you people out there.  

Thora:    00:00:51    Me. I’m on Facebook.

Adam: At work? 

Thora: Oh no! 

Adam: Well. Don’t listen…. Dave 

Thora: So basically we talk to autistic people about their jobs, what they do for work. What is fun about it? Um, and how being autistic, uh, makes a difference at work.  

Adam:    00:01:13    Yep. Hence “on shift”. Also on shift is sort of the wordplay, you know, where we want to change the perspective that, uh, anybody can do anything. There’s a staggering statistic that  

Thora:    00:01:29    84% of autistic adults are unemployed or underemployed.  

Adam:    00:01:35    Right. And so we want to, uh, we want to change the employer’s idea of what people can do. We want to, um, on a lot of the, uh, sites you go on, people are always asking, uh,  

Thora:    00:01:47    Yeah, what do you do for work? What can I do? What am I capable of? And it’s a, it’s a huge conversation in the autistic community.  

Adam:    00:01:53    Right. So we thought we’d talked to some people and, and just put it out there and, and, and answer those questions  

Thora:    00:01:59    And make a shift in that social conversation, uh, you know, about what, uh, autistic people are capable of. So that’s why we’re here. 

Adam: So we’re witty. 

Thora: I don’t know about all that. 

Adam: I’m sure we are. 

Thora: Uh, so I’m Thora T H O R A Thora like the thunder god, but within an A. 

Adam: The A is for Adam. 

Thora: So my story is, I was late diagnosed. I was diagnosed almost two years ago at age 42. And I’m sure, like many of you, it had me kind of looking back at my life and understanding more things.  

Adam:    00:02:43    I’m not so weird.  

Thora:    00:02:46    Yeah. Well, I am weird of course I’m weird.

Adam: That’s what I like about ya. 

Thora: But that, there’s a reason for it as opposed to just, um, 

Adam: Something’s wrong with me

Thora: Right. I’m not broken and it’s been this amazing filter through which I could look at, um, the situations in my life and, and what put me there. And it’s, um, it’s been super helpful. Um, I think one of the biggest things, one of the biggest perspective changes I have received from my diagnosis is understanding why I can’t manage to keep a job. I have, um, either left or gotten fired from pretty much every job I’ve ever had.  

Adam:    00:03:28    Yeah. Since we’ve been together. 

Thora: Well, I mean, it is every job I’ve ever had. 

Adam: Oh, really?  

Thora:    00:03:34    At about a year, year and a half ish. Yeah. It’s like, I can only mask for so long. Right.  

Adam:    00:03:39    You made one for a whole two years. That was a record.  

Thora:    00:03:44    But of course I was a complete and total mess by the end of two years. 

Adam: That’s true. 

Thora: A lot of masking has to happen for us at work, I think. Um, and I don’t think it’s right. Um, so  

Adam:    00:03:55    It sounds sort of a breakdown.  

Thora:    00:03:57    Oh yeah. I had a complete it’s. Yeah. Autistic burnout, I think is, is kind of the terminology that I 

Adam: Of course we didn’t know that at the time. 

Thora: Oh no, no. I just thought I was just mentally losing it. 

Adam: Right. 

Thora: Um, and actually that’s kind of how I got my diagnosis. I, um, had been seeing psychiatrists for a couple of years at that point and nobody really kind of could put a pin in it. Right. Nobody knew what my deal was. I had a massive number of, uh, unrelated diagnoses and, um, I’m sure this is common. It’s common, particularly in autistic women. Um, we get a lot of, you know, um, you know, bipolar or borderline personality disorder or, um, you know, schizotypal or, uh, OCD. And we get a lot of weird diagnoses before somebody actually like really can configure us out. Actually most women figure themselves out long before a doctor does.  

Thora:    00:04:54    I am kind of the, the, the weird one in that mine was total surprise. 

Adam: It was

Thora: So yeah, anyway, it was, uh, it was a couple of years and I had a scheduling issue, put me in the, in the office of another psychiatrist and she looked at my file. She talked to me and she said, none of this makes any sense. So she sent me for a full psychological evaluation. Um, and it was, uh, it was a long process. It was like eight months, lots of sessions, lots of tests. Uh, at the end, the diagnostician sat me down and I believe her exact words were, you have a little bit of autism. And of course my response was no, I don’t because I didn’t know anything about autism at the time. And I made a lot of really harmful assumptions that most people I think make. Um, so, um, um, um, we’re out to change that.  

Adam:    00:05:45    Yeah, exactly. I think a lot of the things, um, you know, we also have a daughter with Down syndrome and I think, you know, uh, a lot of things are more clear when you see yourself being in that place of not understanding everybody, you know, and, uh, all of a sudden there’s a child with Down syndrome and we learn all about this child with Down syndrome and it, you know, and it really puts, so it kind of shines the light on seeing how ignorant I was to, or maybe just the lack of understanding, you know, a lot of us until we have somebody in our lives lives that’s, you know, autistic or with Down syndrome, you know, you start to understand what it means to, you know, to   

Thora:    00:06:31     Well know there’s this, there’s a whole different world that opens up to you when you’re part of those communities. And most people aren’t part of those communities, so they don’t understand us or, um, or they don’t even oftentimes know we exist or they just have this, you know, um, small idea in the back of their head from some, uh, really huge, disgusting organization that, uh, has a big mouth. Um,  

Adam:    00:06:55    I think for him, I mean, the point is, is the, you know, being on both sides of that and seeing what I, you know, what I didn’t know and what I know now and, and seeing, you know, what a different perspective that was, it’s, you know, this is why we’re here. 

Thora: Yeah, absolutely.  

Thora:    00:07:12    Uh, no, but back to, um, my whole, you know, the diagnosis came, I was surprised. And then of course I did what I do about everything was read and read and read and read and, and read.  

Adam:    00:07:25    It’s like, you’re a researcher for your day job.  

Thora:    00:07:27    It is, it is like, I’m a researcher for a day job, but am I really?  

Adam:    00:07:33    The world will never know?  

Thora:    00:07:36    Um, no, but of course the more I read, the more I realized, Oh yeah, that’s that’s me. Yep. Check that, check that check. Um, and then it kind of trickled out from there. It was kind of like, Oh, then I realized that my daughter was autistic. And then I realized that, you know, Adam, Adam’s probably autistic. And then I’m like, Oh, I think my son might be autistic. So we’re just a house full of autistic people. And it’s awesome. Um, but kind of one of the things that has me be in this space where we’re talking about like jobs and things like that is that, um, my, one of my huge special interests is job hunting. And that was partly out of necessity because, uh, as I said before, I couldn’t keep a job. So I had to get really good at getting jobs. 

Adam: And she’s an expert at that. 

Thora: I am, it is become a massive, special interest. I enjoy the entire process. I love it. It’s like a, it’s like, it’s like gambling to me. Right. Like you, you know, you put your bet out there and you sit and wait, you know, they gonna call the right number. Is it going to be, you know, never  

Adam:    00:08:40    They never call me! Sorry.  

Thora:    00:08:42    Um, but yeah, so I’ve learned to get really good at that. And so now I, you know, um, I run a business, uh, writing resumes for the autistic community, um, interview coaching, that kind of stuff. Um, and it just kind of, uh, branched out into this podcast where we realized we just wanted to talk to people about their jobs and it’s such a fascinating, um, thing for, uh, for, for people in the community to, to know. Um, it’s something that I, I hear asked a lot, uh, in, in forums and boards. So that’s me, uh, Adam, however, uh, is not diagnosed, not officially. Um, I guess we could, we could say self-diagnosed, which is completely valid. We are a, um, a huge proponent of self-diagnosis because we know how hard it is to actually get a diagnosis for many people. Um, for many reasons financially, um, uh, I don’t know, time wise, um, well, medical gaslighting, too, that’s a massive thing. Right. They don’t believe you, or people don’t know enough to be able to, you know what I mean? So you can even go try to get a diagnosis and people aren’t, you know, it’s,  

Adam:    00:09:50    There’s a lot of factors that makes it very difficult. It can. Yeah.  

Thora:    00:09:54    Um, but the fact is that, you know, you don’t need a piece of paper that says that you are who you are.  

Adam:    00:10:01    Yeah. And, um, frankly I’m not comfortable to, at this point in my life, you know, there’s definitely nothing wrong with it, but I’m a slow changer, you know, like, you know, the more I talk with people, of course, you know, we’ve, we’ve interviewed people at this point already. We’ve done a couple intros, but, uh, we’re going backwards. Yeah. But, uh, you know, I’ve learned a lot and I, and it, and I realized that, um, a lot of things would be helpful in, uh, kind of hiding out where I am is hurtful to some relationships. Um, but you know, that’s where I am. That’s where I’m comfortable with, um, not out at work. I, uh, it’s just, it’s, I don’t really want people to know for, for me, it’s, you know, look, I’m always just, I’m fighting to kind of fit in. I’ve never felt like I fit in properly. Um, it’s always felt like  

Thora:    00:10:50    You have an ability to do so, even if you don’t feel it’s, I’m sure it’s exhausting. Masking sucks. 

Adam:    00:10:55    It can’t, it can be very exhausting. Um, I’m good at it. Um, and I’ve learned through life and, you know, and, and I think bef before this, I’ve just kind of thought, Hey, I’m really good at figuring out how to, how to camouflage, how to mask, you know, and that’s, and I’m proud of it. And so, like, I don’t want to give that up, you know, it’s something that I’ve built and I’m kind of, that’s just the way I am. I like to build things. And until I’m like, okay, I don’t need to stand on this castle anymore. I can move to the next thing. Um, but you know, I, I’m proud of the things I build in. So, um, I am an architect. Um, it’s something I enjoy doing. So,

Thora: But are you THE architect?

Adam: We’re not going to tell everybody about that. A magician never tells his tricks. 

Adam:    00:11:40    Um, but you know what I mean, the more Thora researches, uh, the more I realized, you know, I looked back at my childhood simple things. I used to build Legos again, architect, um, huge into legos I had all of my

Thora: You still have all your legos

Adam: I do, I do. I don’t play with them every day, but one day I’m going to take them back out. And the whole house is going to be filled up with Legos, but I had all my models as a child, uh, you know, on shelves and such. And, uh, I had my friend, uh, over, I remember this clearly, uh, he would wait until I turned around doing something. He would move all my models around only to watch me turn back around and go in and be like, Hey man, don’t do that. And then rush and put them all back in their place. Of course the dust would tell me exactly where to put them. So that was a kid I didn’t dust. Um, you know, but I mean, these things are more obvious. I mean, this is the kinds of things that are more and more obvious as it is for everybody. Like Thora was saying, the more she did the research, the more obvious her whole life, all these things were more clear and it’s becoming more and more clear for my, uh, for my life.  

Thora:    00:12:55    Yeah. Well, and it’s, it’s interesting too, because you, and you, you always say that you fell into your job, you did not. I mean,  

Adam:    00:13:01    Yeah, that’s a good point. So yeah, I mean, I, I’m a merchandiser, which, you know, putting things in their place is perfect and I’m really good at my job. I, it, but, uh, you know, one, one of the times Thora lost her jobs, you know, we, uh, we were kind of almost down and out and we, uh, went through a temp agency and I got this job as, uh, doing vending machines and, um, you know, something I would have never picked, uh, but it turned into this merchandising position where, uh, at first it was just filling vending machines and now it’s, you know, filling up, uh, you know, like a 7-11 type stores in large industries where, um, you know, I’m ordering food and drinks and, uh, you know, salads and whatever. And, and I’m, and I’m making it look pretty. I’m making everything look really nice and, and I love it.  

Thora:    00:13:53    And it’s not, you know, it’s not just about the looks, he’s super humble, but I’m going to tell you, he is excellent at his job. And what he does is not just put things in their place, but there, he, like, he determines psychologically what the best place placement is for certain things, so that people actually purchase more. And it’s, it’s kind of helpful because I mean, you’re on commission. So the more people buy, the more money you make. And so, you know, it’s just one of those things, the harder you work and the better you are at your job, the more you make and it’s super helpful.  

Adam:    00:14:22    And this is one of the reasons I love my wife, because she is so nice to me. And she always says, how cool I am. Um, one of the things I, uh, I think was interesting, we were talking about a little bit just, um, about this. I remember taking this online test, the Aspie quiz, you know, of course, Thora said, take this. And I’m like, ah, god, this is like a hundred questions. You know, the last thing I want to do. Um, but it, it is interesting because where I fit in going back to talking about how I kind of masking and I’m good at doing that, um, I’m kind of like I’m right in the center. So like, you know, I’m this big circle right. In the center of, you know, uh, what do you,  

Thora:    00:15:04    You’re like halfway in, yeah. You’re halfway in the neuro diverse and halfway in the neuro-typical.   

Adam:    00:15:09    Right. And so of course you’re like way over to the, you know, to the one side and of course I’m right in the center, but it it’s, um, it’s,  

Thora:    00:15:18    I’ve got a couple of little like juts. They jut out like over to the neuro-diverse side.  

Adam:    00:15:23    Yeah. Um, but it allows me to kind of do my job with people. Uh, and you know, I talk, I mean, I don’t get deep into conversation sometimes I do. And I love that when I get to. Um, but generally, you know, uh, the thousands of people I see, you know, it’s, uh, 

Thora: Hey bud, how you doing? 

Adam: Well? Yeah. And I, you know, and I like to be nice and I enjoy people. I just, I, you know, I, I, I find it hard to get into real conversations with people about things, whatever.  

Thora:    00:15:54    Well, that’s, that’s common with anybody. Nobody ever. I mean, people don’t get deep, they don’t want to get deep. It’s scary and vulnerable and, and  

Adam:    00:16:02    Right. But I do enjoy it.  

Thora:    00:16:04    Yeah. Oh yeah. I just mean most people, like when you, like, I haven’t,  

Adam:    00:16:08    You’re right. People don’t want to. I know that.  

Thora:    00:16:10    I have a thing and I hate this whole, I hate small talk. I think it’s just, it’s just disruptive. It’s disturbing and you really don’t care how I am. So why are you asking? But, uh, every once in a while, uh, you know, I’ll get the right person, like someone will ask me, how are you? And I’ve, I’ve trained myself to respond now to this as, um, well, do you want me to be honest or nice? Uh, and most people just kind of scoff, like how rude, you know?  

Adam:    00:16:33    Yeah. Just say, just say the answer, you know, the answer, just say, good. That’s all you say, you don’t say I’m sick. I’m feeling bad. You just say, I’m fine. That’s the answer. 

Thora: That’s the social contract. Don’t, you know? Yeah. 

Adam: You’re making me uncomfortable, man.  

Thora:    00:16:48    Yeah. So those people, I can just write off pretty quickly. And it’s, uh, so it’s kind of like this little litmus test. Right. Um, but sometimes people will just kind of chuckle and it’ll, you know, it’ll just be like, Oh yeah, I guess it is kind of a silly question, but then there’s like those rare people every once in a while, then I’ll just say, Hey, you want me to be honest or nice? And they’ll be like, yeah. You know what? That is a really strange question to ask people, especially if you don’t even know the answer, and then it becomes this huge conversation about the ridiculousness of social conventions. And then those people are like the gold, you know, I’m pannting for gold when I’m talking to people,  

Adam:    00:17:19    It’s a good point. And it is like that. So I, you know, cause like that with people that I should get to have those real conversations with it’s, you know, three out of the thousand, you know, I have these deep conversations. I can’t wait to see them the next time. And of course now I’m too busy. I’m like, I’ll talk to you next time. You know? But anyway, uh, one of the things that’s interesting about, uh, the way that you and I work together, because we are different, we have our strengths and weaknesses is, um, just that, that we work well together. But, um, yeah.  

Thora:    00:17:50    And you kind of, you kind of function as, uh, like I kind of call you like my translator, right. Because I am so I’m like, I’m, I’m an oblivious autistic. Okay. Like I walk around completely, uh, unaware of how I affect people socially.  

Adam:    00:18:05    I’m like, Thora, put your pants on! People, you know, some people are going to be offended by that, you know?  

Thora:    00:18:16    But yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s quite literally what, you know, like how we operate together when we’re out in the world, like you help me kind of melt into, um, kind of the social structure or whatever, because I, I don’t understand a lot of that. Or sometimes I’ll come to you and I’ll ask, Hey, what did someone mean when they said X, Y, Z,  

Adam:    00:18:34    Well, why did they have that? Why did they have that weird look on my face when I wasn’t wearing my pants? I said, okay, she wears her pants, but you know, mostly skirts. Thora: That’s right. I love my skirts.  

Thora:    00:18:44    Well, yeah. That’s 

Thora: Yeah. So you’re like my translator, my NT translator. Right. Neuro-typical for those of you that don’t know what NT stands for. Um, yeah. I, I don’t, I don’t often understand what someone means or what they intend by the things that they say. And so I always have to ask you before I respond,  

Adam:    00:19:02    I’m glad to help. And you’re more of a, you’re the anchor in the relationship, which I’d like for you to explain to our listeners.  

Thora:    00:19:11    I kind of like, I stay on track. I make sure that we’re, that we’re both staying on track. Um, Adam has this fun tendency to like veer off on these tangents. No, it’s awesome. I love it because 

Adam: Squirrel, 

Thora: because tangents are fun and tangents kind of like, you know, they help you learn things and they help you, you know? Uh, it’s just makes conversation with them,  

Adam:    00:19:34    Brings different things in, although that doesn’t always fit  

Thora:    00:19:38    Well, but here’s the thing, like, it’s fun, but you know, there’s still like, you know, like, like in our interviews when we do this podcast, like, it’s, you know, you, you veer off and, um, you know, I kind of have it, like, it’s my job to bring us back.  

Adam:    00:19:54    Oh, it is your job. Like I said, you’re the anchor.  

Thora:    00:19:57    Yeah. I mean, we just gotta, we got to stay on track. Otherwise these, these, uh, interviews would take like three hours. Yeah.  

Adam:    00:20:03    Some have some there might’ve been a drink or two in there.  

Thora:    00:20:10    Um, but yeah, so I mean, that’s kind of how we work together. Um, what we’re up to when we do this podcast is really, um, we, first of all, we love meeting all of you. We love meeting autistic people. We love learning from autistic people. I mean, we all have this massive wealth of knowledge and it’s so fun to meet. I mean, how many interviews we’ve done so far, we’ve done like nine or 10 or 10. Yeah. And, uh, and everyone has been so fun and so fascinating. And we’ve learned something from literally everyone.  

Adam:    00:20:44    Absolutely. And it’s been really, it’s been really good getting to know people. I mean, it has been a pandemic after all. And so it’s really nice to, to sit here. And of course, for, for you guys, it’s just, you know, you hear us, it’s a podcast, but of course for us, when we’re, uh, talking with people, you know, we have a video because it’s easier to read lips and see facial expressions and, you know, to kind of know where we’re going. And, um, but we really get to know people and really get to enjoy these people. I mean, and we get, I feel like we’ve gotten close with everybody and it’s been enjoyable, you know, and, and there’s a lot to learn.  

Thora:    00:21:20    We’re having fun and we’re learning, but you know, the whole point of the thing is really to change the stigma of autistic people, uh, in, in the workplace specifically. Uh, but you know, just in the general social conversation, like, you know, Hey, there’s more of us than you think there are. I promise you, I guarantee you, you know, autistic people and you probably don’t know it.  

Adam:    00:21:41    Yeah. And in the workplace, we, you know, one of the other things is we really want to show our strengths in the workplace because I don’t think that’s quite obvious all the time.  

Thora:    00:21:50    No, it’s not. I remember, um, when I first got my job, uh, actually this is the first time I have disclosed and 

Adam: It’s true. That’s right. Yeah. 

Thora: Um, which was, uh, w which is kind of cool. And I think it’s allowed me to not have to mask so much, which is awesome,  

Adam:    00:22:04    Comfortable being you. And, and when you deal with something that you feel has been in your way before, it’s, it’s something you can, you can talk to and you can go back to and say, look, I’ve already disclosed this. We can, I can just discuss, what’s weird for me right now. Hey, I might need some help with this. It’d be very helpful for you guys to do this for me. Um, what’s that called when asking your employer for the little health and accommodation, in a sense, I mean, it might not sound like it for you, but that’s exactly what it is. And a lot of that terminology, like, things like that for me are very confusing. You hear a combination like, well, what the hell does that mean? You know, in this case, it’s very specifically, I mean, you can give an example, maybe,  

Thora:    00:22:44    Um, like, uh, I’m super blunt. Okay. I, while I am, uh, whatever assigned female at birth, I could, I don’t know how I identify, but whatever. Um, so while I am a woman, I tend to, I don’t tend to my, uh, autistic tendencies are way more, uh, male leaning. I present like an autistic man. Um, I have that social obliviousness. I’m very blunt and direct. Um, so I, so at work, like, particularly like my boss, like, uh, just the other day, as a matter of fact, he asked me if I would, um, kind of oversee a group of people doing a particular task. And I kind of was like, you know, I would love to, and I am perfectly capable of doing so I have done it in the past and I am a great manager. I said, here’s the thing though. Um, I’m blunt.  

Thora:    00:23:40    I am very direct and people don’t often like that. 

Adam: And I don’t know why I love it. 

Thora: I, well, I do too. That’s how I like to be communicated with. I do. I do. Um, and so I told him, and, you know, his response was, if I was just, you know, any old person, you know, his response might be different, but knowing that I’m autistic, he said, you know what? I get that. And we are going to build a team that works with you because it will be your team. You know? And if I didn’t disclose that, he, I would never have that opportunity. Right.  

Adam:    00:24:15    I am. I think that’s weird. Or think you’re just trying to say something other than what you’re saying, or, you know, knowing that you’re blunt, he’s like, Nope, this is exactly what she’s saying, which is,   

Adam:    00:24:27    That as blunt. And I find it as extremely useful, you know, if I didn’t have you in my life, you know, you say something, I know that’s what you mean. There’s no question. There’s no beating around the bush about it  

Thora:    00:24:38    Game with some weird word play or whatever bullshit 

Adam: it’s confusing when people are, you know? 

Thora: Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Anyway, I totally got I’m the tangent! 

Adam: Look, I was the anchor!  

Adam:    00:24:52    We’re coming each other’s way.  

Thora:    00:24:53    Nice. And after 20 years, you’d think we would learn a little something from each other.  

Adam:    00:24:56    I would imagine. Maybe.  

Thora:    00:24:59    We’re not quite 20 years, almost 20 years, but, but we’ll get there. I promise.  

Adam:    00:25:07    So the other thing is at work, um, w w what we’re doing with this podcast is we want to highlight, uh, you know, basically how to support us, you know, to employers. Right?  

Thora:    00:25:17    Absolutely. And of course, that’s different for everybody. We all have heard the phrase. If you’ve met one autistic person, you’ve met one autistic person, you know, so all of our needs are gonna be different, but, you know, um, just to give people an idea, you know, Hey, maybe, you know, uh, I could offer this type of accommodation, or maybe I could offer this type of, uh, work, uh, task or this type of, um, you know, uh, tool, resource kind of thing. Um, and, and that’s what we’re, that’s the conversation we’re trying to have is just, you know, what are the tools and resources that we need, um, to help us be successful at work? 

Adam: And I think that’s about it. Yeah. 

Thora: Yeah. I mean, that’s what we’re up to. We’re glad you’re joining us. We’ll be here every week. Um, some of our, uh, some of our guests are self-employed, some of our guests are, you know, they have employers and, you know, um, w2s and all that fun stuff. Right. Um, but yeah, so we get to, to run the whole gamut and learn from it  

Adam:    00:26:15    Or from all over the world. So I don’t know, there may not have a W2.  

Thora:    00:26:19    Oh, well, yeah. That’s probably true. All right. Well, uh, thanks for joining us. Uh, come back again, uh, next week, uh, I believe our first guest is a service dog trainer. So look forward to that one. 

Adam: Is it, is that who we’re doing first? 

Thora: Yeah. 

Adam: Okay. 

Thora: We’ve got some exciting interviews coming your way, and, uh, we are always going to have a transcript and show notes, uh, which may or may not include our guests, uh, social media links on our website that is CarveResumes.com carve like carve a name for yourself, CarveResumes.com/podcast. Um, and we’re going to be on any podcatcher that you operate. I’m sure. Um, Spotify, Apple, iTunes, all that fun stuff. Yep. Cool. So 

Adam: Look forward to seeing you next week. 

Thora: Enjoy! 

Filler Counts:

Uh – 85
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Like – 84
You know – 113