• The foundational role of a high-quality, trust-building website
• Authenticity through real photos versus stock images
• Developing unique brand voice and avoiding mimicry of competitors
• Local SEO techniques, including local service pages and Google Map Pack optimization
• The importance of personalized content and FAQs for voice search
• How AI is revolutionizing content creation, video generation, and website development
• Managing geographic targeting and scaling marketing efforts based on budget
• The significance of continuous photo and video updates for local ranking
• The shift from traditional link building to mentions and citations
• Future outlook: AI advancements and their influence on small business marketing

About Julia Bocchese

Julia is the founder of Julia Renee Consulting, a Philadelphia-based consultancy serving creative and holistic small businesses — interior designers, photographers, midwives, therapists, and more. She offers SEO services, Pinterest strategy and management, blog and content optimization, and AI search (AEO) services. She also teaches SEO at the college level — without textbooks, because anything printed a year ago is already out of date.

What We Cover

• Pinterest as a search engine: Why Julia treats Pinterest with the same keyword discipline as Google — and why most businesses are leaving long-lived traffic on the table by ignoring it.
• The longevity advantage: Julia has clients with pins from 2009 that still drive traffic. The math on why Pinterest content compounds while social posts expire.
• Unexpected Pinterest niches: A niche Olympic swim training company with zero Pinterest competition. A Swiss boarding school. Luxury yachts. Why the "I'm not visual enough" objection almost never holds.
• Video pins done right: Audio is muted by default. Talking-head videos underperform. What actually works — and how it differs completely from Instagram.
• The Pinterest-Google double dip: Julia regularly sees Pinterest boards and individual pins ranking in Google SERPs for the same keywords her clients are chasing organically.
• AI search optimization: Why the most important information needs to live at the top of the page, and why distributing FAQs throughout service pages outperforms a single standalone FAQ page.
• Link building for solopreneurs: How Julia helps small businesses find local placements that do double duty — links and direct audience exposure in one.
• Reporting without owning revenue: Why Julia reports on traffic quality and impressions rather than conversions she can't control.
• The biggest SEO trap right now: Writing for bots instead of the humans who are actually going to pay you.
• On-page quick wins: Julia's five-point checklist when she takes on a new site — including the location-in-the-footer problem she sees on almost every local business site.

Conversation Highlights

On why she teaches without textbooks:

"I don't give my students textbooks. Anything printed a year ago is already out of date in SEO. The syllabus changes throughout the semester as new findings come out — the class can look totally different from one year to the next."

On why Pinterest belongs in your strategy:

"People aren't going to Pinterest to follow people. They're searching for information. That's why I focus on it alongside SEO — the keyword strategy transfers almost directly."

On pin longevity vs. social media:

"Pins can live for months to even years. I've seen clients who have had pins from 2009 that are still bringing traffic to their website. Unlike social media where your content stops getting seen after a day or two."

On the Google + Pinterest double dip:

"When I do keyword research for SEO clients, I'll sometimes see Pinterest boards or individual pins ranking in Google for those terms. So you can get traffic from Pinterest itself, and directly from Google at the same time."

On AI search optimization:

"AI platforms only crawl part of a page. So making sure the most important information is towards the top of the page — that's one of the key shifts I'm helping clients make right now."

On the biggest SEO mistake she sees:

"Clients are writing for the bots crawling their site, not for the humans who are actually going to be hiring them and giving them money. Bots don't have any cash to spend."

Julia's Links

• juliareneeconsulting.com — Services, case studies, and data on each service page
• SEO Services — One-time audits through full ongoing optimization
• Pinterest Services — Setup, management, and strategy including the "7 Questions" pre-Pinterest checklist
• Content & Blog Services — Keyword research, editorial calendars, blog optimization
• Instagram: @juliareneeconsulting
• LinkedIn: Julia Bocchese
• Pinterest: Julia Renee Consulting

About the Unscripted SEO Podcast

The Unscripted SEO Podcast is hosted by Jeremy Rivera, a veteran SEO consultant and founder of SEO Arcade. Each episode is an unscripted conversation with practitioners, founders, and specialists — no slide decks, no talking points, just real discussion about what's working in search. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

In this episode of the Unscripted SEO Podcast, Jeremy Rivera sits down with Jason Wade, founder of Ninja AI and an expert in AI visibility architecture, GEO, and AEO. They go deep on what it actually means to engineer your entity, why most SEOs are still running 2015 playbooks, and why one podcast episode can outperform a year of blogging.

 Here's Jason's recap of this Unscripted SEO episode

What We Cover in This Episode

• What 'AI visibility' means and why GEO/AEO is really just visibility engineering
• Entity optimization: how AI systems recognize authority — and how you train them
• The content multiplication math: one podcast → 50 assets
• Why most businesses have never actually said what they do on their website
• How Google's core algorithm updates have punished hacking and rewarded authenticity
• The Office Space test: 'What would you say you do here?' — applied to your homepage
• Why Reddit and podcasts rank instantly compared to traditional SEO timelines
• E-E-A-T in practice: showing up, speaking up, and having others verify it

Best Quotes from This Episode

“If a company can take that friction away and do the stuff they won't do — that's where the magic is.” — Jason Wade

“One podcast could become 50 assets. One podcast.” — Jason Wade

“You're training the system in the easiest way possible — by simply showing up.” — Jason Wade

“Your content gap analysis should be: what are all the competitors missing that you can provide?” — Jeremy Rivera

Resources & Links Mentioned

• Guest: Jason Wade — 

  ninjaai.com | jasonwade.com | LinkedIn

  Services: AI Visibility | GEO | AEO | AI SEO Strategies

  Article: 25 Local SEO Tips — AI Upgrade

Host: Jeremy Rivera | SEO Arcade | Unscripted SEO Podcast

More from SEO Arcade: Podcast-Based Link Building Service | Entity Optimization with Jason Barnard

Like what you heard? Subscribe, leave a review, and share with an SEO who needs to hear this. And if you want to explore how podcast-based SEO services could multiply your content and backlinks — schedule a call at SEOArcade.com.

Stephan built his career from the dot-com era through to co-founding one of the largest enterprise SEO platforms ever built. He's seen the industry from every angle — agency, platform, C-suite — and he doesn't pull punches about where we've gone wrong or how to fix it.

What We Cover in This Episode

• Why the GEO / AIO naming debate is a symptom of a bigger identity problem — and why fixing it starts with SEOs, not executives
• What SEO actually is when you strip away the jargon: connecting organizational wisdom to the audience that needs it
• The lonely island problem — why even great SEOs fail when the content team, dev team, and CMO aren't aligned
• How conflicting KPIs create internal friction and a practical approach to working with — not against — the people who control execution
• Why the best keyword research is a conversation — Jeremy's concrete-wall installer example and how to build content from real expert interviews
• Content value beyond organic traffic — why reporting only on organic is leaving most of the story untold
• Vibe Logic's 'web presence intelligence' framework and the concept of being where decisions are formed, not just where they're made
• Why passion is the one trait in great SEOs you simply cannot teach

Topics Covered

• How AI-powered search surfaces (ChatGPT, Perplexity, Gemini, Copilot) are — and aren’t — changing SEO workflow
• Why schema markup is the highest-leverage technical tactic for AI visibility
• The difference between informational and transactional AI search behavior
• A page-by-page schema architecture strategy for e-commerce and service sites
• How to use competitor schema analysis as a gap-finding tactic
• Why content + backlinks + technical SEO must all work together

Key Quotes

“The AI overview is just a featured snippet — just a new way to rebrand it for Google. The old tactics, the old strategies already worked.” — Brandon Leibowitz

“The more touch points you have and more places people find you, the more likely they are to want your product or service in the future.” — Brandon Leibowitz

Resources Mentioned

• SEO Optimizers — Brandon’s agency
• Free Gift + Classes from Brandon
• Free Website SEO Analysis
• Google Search Console
• Ahrefs
• Brandon on LinkedIn
• Unscripted SEO Podcast
• Jeremy Rivera – About

Connect With Brandon Leibowitz

Website: seooptimizers.com

Free Gift: seooptimizers.com/gift

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/brandonleibowitz

About The Unscripted SEO Podcast

The Unscripted SEO Podcast is hosted by Jeremy Rivera, SEO consultant and founder of SEO Arcade. Each episode features candid, unscripted conversations with leading SEO practitioners, agency founders, and digital marketing veterans.

In this episode, Jeremy Rivera sits down with Greg to tackle whether websites are still relevant, how to build for searcher intent, why copywriting beats design every time, and what the rise of AI vibe coding actually means for your brand.

Episode Highlights

• Do you really need a website in 2025? Greg’s nuanced take on social media vs. owned assets
• The cold / warm / hot traffic model and how to match your CTA to intent
• Why Microsoft Clarity should be on every website (and how it compares to Hotjar)
• Website design trends to avoid in 2026 — and what converts instead
• How to find your unique positioning in a commoditized niche
• Interactive lead magnets vs. PDF downloads — what actually converts today
• The AI sameness problem: why vibe-coded websites all look the same

Key Resources Mentioned

• Studio1 Design — Greg’s agency
• Next Level Website Design (Book)
• Free Resources — Custom GPT + book companion
• Microsoft Clarity — Free heatmaps & session recording
• Enterprise Fitness (macro calculator example)
• Yoshua Law (case study)
• Greg’s email: greg@studio1design.com
• Connect with Jeremy Rivera
• SEO Arcade — Podcast-based content marketing & link building

Studio1 Design Blog — Related Reading

• Don’t Chase Website Design Trends in 2026
• The Hidden Cost of Fancy Website Effects: Lost Conversions
• How We Turned a Law Firm Redesign Into 60% More Conversions
• How We Boosted a Fitness Business’ Bookings By 64%
• AI Killed Your Website Strategy: Here’s What Works Now
• How to Create a Personal Brand That Attracts Dream Clients

In this episode of the Unscripted SEO Podcast, Jeremy Rivera sits down with Charlie Birch, Founder and Creative Director of Humaniz Collective, to explore the collision between brand strategy and modern SEO — and why treating them as separate disciplines is costing founders real revenue.

What You'll Learn in This Episode

• Why Charlie's background in performance, psychology, and crisis intervention makes her uniquely equipped to navigate brand identity
• How brand strategy and SEO have more in common than most agencies admit
• The danger of only measuring attraction — and why conversion and retention are the real metrics that matter
• Why copying your competitors' strategy only makes you more like them — not better than them
• How Charlie's Brand IdQ Framework turns founder instinct into a shared decision-making lens for the entire team
• A real-world example of how interviewing the installer — not just doing keyword research — uncovered an angle nobody was targeting
• How to evaluate whether a campaign is the right fit for your brand before you invest

Guest Resources

Humaniz Collective Website

Brand IdQ — Take the Free Integrity Snapshot

The Inner Circle — Apply for Free Monthly Networking (2nd Thursday each month, 1:30 PM ET — mention Unscripted SEO Podcast to get prioritized!)

On Raising Brands Newsletter

Breaking the Bottleneck — Founder Interviews

Charlie on LinkedIn

Humaniz Collective on Instagram

Referenced in This Episode

Spacebar Collective (Chris Tweeten) — 'Publishing more won't fix a weak SEO game. It's about leverage.'

Permacast Walls — The precast concrete walls example that revealed the "anti-dig" keyword opportunity

SEO Arcade — Content Gap Analysis & Forecasting Tools

About Your Host

Jeremy Rivera is an SEO strategist with 19+ years of experience and founder of SEO Arcade. He specializes in connecting SEO tactics to real business outcomes, helping brands turn podcast conversations into high-leverage content strategies.

Subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with a founder who needs to hear it.

What We Cover

• Why long-tail category pages became REVOLVE's most provable SEO strategy — and how Paul sold it to C-suite
• The 3-product rule for deciding when a category page is worth creating vs. when to kill it
• Why luxury fashion brands resist text-heavy SEO content — and how to work with that, not against it
• The honest state of AI/LLM visibility for a major e-commerce brand: $58K/month in LLM-driven revenue and what that actually means
• How to reverse-engineer LLM citations to find the best places to get your brand mentioned
• Link context signals — why what's around a link matters as much as the link itself
• Bill Slawski's patent analysis work and how it connects to Koray Tugberk's topical authority framework
• A live SEO test showing a 25% lift in organic traffic from adding content to long-tail pages

Resources & Links

• REVOLVE (revolve.com) — Paul's employer and the e-commerce brand discussed throughout
• Unscripted SEO Podcast — Subscribe for more unscripted SEO conversations
• Jeremy Rivera — Host — About your host
• Keyword Clusters Based on SERP Data — SEO Arcade — Understanding how Google groups related queries
• Opportunity Sizing in SEO — SEO Arcade — How to quantify SEO wins for C-suite
• White-Label Link Building Services — SEO Arcade — Community-based and podcast-based link building
• Podcast-Based Content & Link Building — SEO Arcade — The full PAASS service
• SEO By The Sea — Bill Slawski's Google patent research (search "Bill Slawski SEO By The Sea")

Find Paul Baterina

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-baterina-079ab629/
• Twitter: https://x.com/paulbaterina
• Slack: SEO Community & Asians In Search (run by George Nguyen)
• Conferences: SearchLove San Diego

• ️ Listen: unscriptedseo.com Guest: Timothy Malmros on LinkedIn
• Full Episode dialog with Timothy Malmros exposing blackhat SEO on SEO Arcade

Guest Bio

Timothy Malmros is a former gambling affiliate SEO with nearly two decades in the industry. After retiring from active affiliation, he turned his focus to investigating and documenting black hat SEO techniques — particularly in the gambling and sweepstakes space — through detailed posts on LinkedIn. His work offers a rare, transparent look at how spam tactics actually function, why they succeed, and why Google takes so long to stop them.

In his own words: 
"Finished 12th grade. Got fired from Mcdonalds. Moved to Israel back in 2005. Applied to 20 jobs, got one reply and started working as a ”live person” human chatbot in an online casino. Promoted to affiliate manager 10 months later, did that for a bit over a year.

Decided, lets try to become an affiliate, if I after a year can earn 3000 euro a month I wont go back to school. Sold my company in 2016 to gaming innovation group, joined as director of seo as employee nr 6 for gig media. Gig media grew to 200+ people and became a bit to pc for me, quit in 2018, rebuilt going hard on grey hat SEO then decided to take a break from the stress of SEO in November 2024 and basically retire but quickly got bored and started writing articles instead."

Follow Timothy's ongoing research: linkedin.com/in/timothy-m-59a216b/

Episode Summary

In this episode, Jeremy Rivera sits down with Timothy Malmros — a former gambling affiliate SEO turned black hat investigator — for a wide-ranging, candid conversation about how spam evolves, why Google keeps losing the spam war, and what the rise of AI really means for the internet's content ecosystem.

Timothy shares his hands-on research into drop domains and the canonical trick, a modern black hat method that combines expired high-authority domains with spam link bombardment and canonical redirects to game Google's rankings in the gambling and sweepstakes space. The conversation expands into Trust Rank theory, click metric manipulation, the collapse of the anti-spam team, and the disturbing implications of AI-generated content replacing original human publishing.

A refreshingly honest, technically deep episode for anyone who wants to understand what's actually happening beneath the surface of modern search.

Key Topics Covered

• How black hat SEO evolved from hidden white-text links and site counter injection to the sophisticated drop domain / canonical trick
• What the canonical trick is and how it creates an infinite $10 ranking loop using expired high-authority domains
• Why gambling markets reveal emerging black hat techniques before any other niche
• Trust Rank theory and the Medic update — distance from seed sites and why Healthline beat Dr. Josh Axe overnight
• Why some drop domains work and others don't — the mixed signals Timothy is still investigating
• The dismantling of Google's anti-spam team and its connection to the ChatGPT competitive threat
• HCU as the reintroduction of Panda/Penguin — and whether it's algorithmic or hybrid
• Google creating then killing its own monsters — from recipe sites to AI overviews
• Click metric manipulation: Android bot farms with VPN rotation and what fake branding actually looks like
• Rank tracker visits inflating GSC impressions — and why Google finally cut off 100-page results
• Reddit as an AstroTurfable Google signal and the platform inflation play
• SEMrush, Moz, and Ahrefs: the distorting pressures of IPOs and private equity
• AI as a useful menial tool vs. a structural threat to publishing incentives

Resources & Links Mentioned

• ️ Unscripted SEO Podcast: unscriptedseo.com
• Timothy Malmros on LinkedIn (black hat research posts): linkedin.com/in/timothy-m-59a216b/
• Lily Ray — recommended follow for tracking Google update impact
• SEOteric / Matt Brooks — source of the "no clean non-AI content since 2015" statistic
• Darth NA (Twitter/X) — Medic update and Trust Rank discussions https://x.com/darth_na
• Dr. Josh Axe — referenced as a case study for the Medic update https://draxe.com/
• Ninja Casino — Swedish casino brand case study for bot traffic / branded search
• Raven Tools — Jeremy's former employer; context for rank tracking data history https://raventools.com
• Authority Labs — spun off from Raven Tools for rank tracking
• Moz — SEO SaaS case study on private equity destruction
• Ahrefs / Tim Soulo — referenced as a positive example of resisting IPO pressure

Benas Leonavicius has spent 10 years in the SEO trenches—from working with large e-commerce sites to navigating the bureaucratic nightmare of enterprise SaaS SEO. Now he's building an agency focused on keynote speakers, authors, and coaches, where basic SEO fundamentals deliver outsized results.

In this conversation, we dive deep into:

• Why AI search optimization is the new frontier (and why tracking is nearly impossible)
• How to actually appear in ChatGPT and AI overviews
• The shift from website-centric to entity-centric SEO
• Why SaaS companies are terrible clients for freelance SEO scalability
• The #1 thing keynote speakers get wrong (hint: they don't mention their keywords)
• Whether new people should enter SEO in 2025

If you're a freelancer trying to scale, a speaker trying to get found, or anyone wondering how AI is changing search—this episode is for you.

Key Topics Discussed

AI Search Optimization (11:11 - 21:03)

• The biggest challenge with AI search: tracking is nearly impossible
• How ChatGPT and Perplexity source their answers (training data + tiered Google searches)
• Why speaker bureaus and listicles dominate AI search results for keynote speakers
• The 25% consistency problem: AI gives different answers to different users
• Backlinks, PR, mentions, and social media as the foundation of AI visibility
• How to reverse-engineer AI sources by simply asking ChatGPT what it referenced

The SaaS SEO Nightmare (03:47 - 07:34)

• Why SaaS companies limit freelancer scalability (1-2 clients max per month)
• The JIRA ticket trap: submitting tickets just to edit meta descriptions
• Managing multiple stakeholders with competing priorities
• How product changes constantly disrupt long-term SEO strategy
• Why Benas stopped taking SaaS clients despite their lucrative budgets

Keynote Speaker SEO Opportunities (02:14 - 03:47, 25:19 - 28:10)

• Why 90% of speakers have zero SEO optimization
• The differentiation trap: avoiding keywords to sound unique
• The highest ROI fix: adding proper meta titles with target keywords
• Why speakers already have strong websites—they just don't know it
• Talk Thrive Agency: Benas's keynote speaker SEO service

Content vs. Links vs. Technical SEO (07:34 - 09:07)

• Why Benas focuses on on-page content optimization
• Link building feels "solved" and basic in 2025
• Technical SEO's limitations for most businesses
• Finding the middle ground between all three domains

AI Content Creation Reality Check (09:07 - 11:11)

• ChatGPT as "your most popular but least trained customer support rep" (Matt Brooks, SEOteric)
• Why Benas doesn't jump on new AI tools immediately
• Using AI as a brainstorming and first draft tool, not a final solution
• The hallucination and authenticity problem with over-reliance

Entity SEO vs. Website SEO (15:21 - 20:08)

• How LLMs use training databases and tiered search results
• Getting third-party content ranked, even when it's not on your site
• Why digital visibility is shifting from website-centric to entity-centric
• Direct traffic increasing as people find brands through AI, not clicks
• Impressions mattering more than clicks (the Instagram-ification of search)

Should You Freelance in SEO Today? (21:03 - 23:24)

• Why the future of SEO is uncertain but potentially opportune
• The "SEO is dead" fear that didn't materialize
• Learning LLM optimization now as a 5-7 year bet
• Why established SEO pros have an easier path than newcomers
• The risk of learning a skill that becomes hard to monetize

Common SEO Mistakes (23:24 - 25:19)

• Most clients haven't done any SEO at all
• Websites that accidentally built authority over a decade
• Not knowing what to do with existing SEO strength
• Little details that make a huge difference

Best Quotes

On SaaS Scalability:

"Although I can provide a lot of value to SaaS companies, at the end of the day, I might only have one or two clients like that per month, and then I cannot scale."

On AI Search Sources:

"For you to be on ChatGPT, you basically need to be on either the speaker bureau's websites or you need to be on those listicles because that seems to be one of the primary sources."

On AI's Future:

"I think what we're playing with is probably the worst version AI will ever be. I feel like we're still going upwards, not downwards."

On Keynote Speaker SEO:

"Imagine you're a speaker that wants to target keywords such as 'leadership keynote speaker.' They don't even have 'leadership' anywhere mentioned on their website because they want to differentiate themselves."

On Entity-Centric SEO:

"Digital visibility is less centric just to the website, but more towards the entity." - Jeremy Rivera

On SEO Fundamentals:

"Do you actually mention the keywords in the titles and the text? That's probably the highest ROI thing I do for my clients."

From offshore Google support nightmares to the "bullets in the chamber" framework for platform selection, this conversation reveals what seven years of hands-on PPC experience teaches you about digital marketing that no certification ever will.

Guest

Jeremy Yang
Founder, Digital Goliath
Website | LinkedIn

Jeremy founded Digital Goliath seven years ago and currently manages about $450,000 per month in ad spend across Google Ads and Meta platforms. Based in Sydney, Australia, he works with small to mid-sized businesses and white labels for larger agencies, specializing in high-accountability, hands-on campaign management.

Key Topics Discussed

The SEO-SEM Divide (00:00 - 05:00)

• Why paid ads and SEO teams rarely communicate
• Operational intensity differences between channels
• Knowledge-sharing culture in PPC vs. SEO communities
• Why Google gives advertisers more data than SEOs get

Google Ads Setup Nightmares (05:00 - 10:00)

• The fox guarding the henhouse: letting Google set up your campaigns
• Offshore vs. onshore Google support experiences
• Most common setup errors (cramming everything into one campaign)
• Why following scripts doesn't work in modern PPC

The Death of Exact Match (10:00 - 15:00)

• How Google Ads has shifted to theme-based campaigns
• Everything is "broad-ish" now regardless of match type settings
• Competitor brands sneaking into your keyword auctions
• Performance Max and the return of negative lists
• ROAS-based campaign structuring for e-commerce

Display Ads: Remarketing Only (15:00 - 20:00)

• Why display should only be used for remarketing
• The spammy site problem and how to exclude them
• Diminishing returns on display, YouTube, and discovery feeds
• Strategic use of minimal display budgets ($10-20) for brand presence

Platform Selection Framework (20:00 - 30:00)

• "How many bullets you got in the chamber?" - the content asset question
• Meta is about burnout: why you need consistent creative production
• When to go 80% Google, 20% Bing (service businesses without video)
• When Meta makes sense (businesses with UGC and video capabilities)
• Real-world example: Bubble.com Casting (children's modeling agency)

Cost Realities Nobody Discusses (30:00 - 35:00)

• High-CPC industries: $200/click for tow trucks, $150/click for credit cards
• Why $30/click for lawyers isn't unusual
• Budget requirements for competitive industries
• When to rely on Performance Max vs. traditional search campaigns

SEO Value Proposition for Small Business (35:00 - 45:00)

• If you run out of ad budget, your campaign's over
• SEO builds appreciable assets that compound over time
• The upscale effect vs. the burn rate of paid ads
• Working with ads teams to target expensive keywords organically
• Client filtering: not every client is worth acquiring

AI Overviews and the Future of Search (45:00 - 55:00)

• ChatGPT ads platform: $60-80 CPMs for businesses spending $1M+
• The "charge and forget" model vs. nuanced ad platforms
• AI overview impact: 25-40% traffic loss for publisher sites
• The measurement problem: observing something changes it
• 100 searches = only 20% consistent results in AI answers
• Why SEOs should be essential communicators, not siloed specialists

The Human-Bot Sandwich (55:00 - 65:00)

• Bots don't have money - humans are still the end buyers
• Layers of bots between seller and buyer (ChatGPT → Google → Website → LLM content)
• Why bots reward human-friendly content
• Subject matter expertise cannot come from LLM tools
• The Ouroboros effect: AI eating its own tail

Content Strategy: Two Approaches (65:00 - 75:00)

• Keyword clustering tool approach (top 10 URLs, top 100 keywords)
• Expert-to-expert conversation approach
• Why genuine conversations extract better targeting data
• Internal interviews vs. external podcast approach
• Example: Precast walls installation expert interview
• Commercial viability: reaching people with purchasing power

Future-Proofing Agencies (75:00 - End)

• Bolstering the playbook with AI-assisted competitive analysis
• Moving away from "algorithm whisperer" tactics
• Client differentiation through direct communication
• Reducing churn by being present and accessible
• Building systematic approaches to content multiplication

Best Quotes

"If you really want things to go fast, you got to go into paid ad space."

"For ads, the intensity is a lot higher. When your clients are doing ads, the stakes feel higher. They're more demanding. You have to be hovering around the computer. Things go wrong and things have to be fixed straight away."

"Everything is broad-ish now. Doesn't matter how you set it. Competitor brands can sneak in, whereas that's never happened before. So exact match is no longer exact match."

"How many bullets you got in the chamber? If you go 'Let's do this for three months' and you got like four assets, I'm like 'Where'd you get these four assets?' You go 'We shot it a year ago and the guy's gone now.' I don't know if you're going to last three months."

"Meta is about burnout. So you got to refill and replenish the tank."

"Since I started seven years ago, I only believe in using display ads for remarketing."

"If you have one product line that has 1.2X and 8X ROAS acceptable, that's not going to work because it's too scattered. Law of averages will kill you."

"Bots don't have money to spend. If you want something to happen, you still got to make sure it works for the last person who's going to be in the chain."

"SEO should recognize that this is an essential game now. It's not even optional anymore. They can't be working in silos. They've got to be a communicator."

Key Takeaways

The SEO-SEM divide persists largely due to operational intensity differences — paid ads require constant monitoring and rapid response, while SEO operates on longer timelines with more methodical testing and community knowledge-sharing.

Google's ad platform has shifted from granular keyword control to theme-based, broad-match campaigns, with Performance Max becoming the dominant model, requiring advertisers to focus on ROAS-based campaign structuring rather than traditional keyword segmentation.

Display advertising should be reserved exclusively for remarketing with clear offers, as the diminishing returns come very quickly on display, YouTube, and discovery feeds — smart advertisers allocate minimal budgets ($10-20) to maintain brand presence across touchpoints.

Platform selection depends on your content fuel supply — if you can't consistently produce fresh video and creative assets, Meta will burn you out quickly; service businesses without video capabilities should focus 80% on Google Search with 20% on Bing once search is optimized.

The future of marketing requires breaking down silos between SEO and paid ads teams, viewing performance through blended ROAS rather than isolated channel metrics, and creating content systems that repurpose assets across multiple platforms rather than treating ad creative as disposable.

In the emerging AI-driven search landscape, the "human-bot sandwich" principle matters most — bots don't have money, so content must ultimately serve humans even as it passes through multiple algorithmic layers, with genuine subject-matter-expert conversations producing far richer content than keyword-optimized articles alone.

Resources Mentioned

• Digital Goliath - digitalgoliath.com.au
• Digital Goliath Blog - digitalgoliath.com.au/blogs
• ROAS Calculator - digitalgoliath.com.au/roas-calculator
• CPC Calculator - digitalgoliath.com.au/cpc-calculator
• Google Ads Management Services - digitalgoliath.com.au/google-ads-management-services
• Social Media Ads Management - digitalgoliath.com.au/social-media-ads-management
• SEOteric (Matt Brooks) - seoteric.com
• SEO Arcade - seoarcade.com
• Unscripted SEO - unscriptedseo.com

Companies/Examples Mentioned

• Bubble.com Casting (Children's modeling agency in Australia)
• Meta Ads Library
• Google Transparency Center
• Performance Max
• Ahrefs
• SEMrush
• SE Rankings

Connect with Jeremy Yang

• Website: digitalgoliath.com.au
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jeremy-yang
• Location: Sydney, Australia (Servicing Worldwide)
• Phone: 1300 347 677

In this episode of the Unscripted SEO podcast, Keith Breseé and Cauveé, the inspiration engineer, delve into the intricacies of content marketing. They discuss the importance of platforms like Substack and Beehive for community building, the necessity of finding one's niche, and the long-term strategies required for effective content creation. The conversation also covers the significance of understanding market gaps, leveraging influencer marketing, and the role of paid advertising. Additionally, they emphasize the importance of crafting effective hooks, storytelling, and utilizing AI tools for content creation. The episode concludes with insights on building relationships and the long game in personal branding.

Takeaways

• Substack is a powerful tool for building a community.
• Decide whether to follow trends or focus on your passion.
• Always provide value in your content to generate leads.
• Content creation is a long-term commitment.
• Reverse engineer your content strategy from your goals.
• Understand your market and conduct competitor analysis.
• Influencer marketing can significantly boost visibility.
• Paid advertising can help in gaining traction.
• Mastering hooks and storytelling is crucial for engagement.
• Building relationships is key to long-term success.

Kyle Merrick doesn't pull punches. As the founder of Anarchy For A Day and a marketing veteran with nearly a decade of agency experience, he's seen it all—and he's not afraid to call BS on what's broken in modern marketing.

In this episode, we dive deep into the tension between performance and authenticity, why AI-generated content is killing trust, and how businesses can differentiate themselves in commodified markets. Kyle brings a unique perspective as both a marketer and an actor, understanding how to build believability while staying within boundaries.

This conversation gets heated, philosophical, and practical all at once. If you're tired of the same sanitized marketing advice, this episode is for you.

Key Topics Discussed

Trust & Authenticity in Marketing (00:00-10:02)

• Why marketers have a trust problem
• The challenge of discerning real vs. fake in the digital age
• How social media has groomed us to accept mixed messages
• The importance of delivery over content

AI vs. Human Connection (10:02-22:31)

• Why AI-generated marketing content fails to build trust
• The role of podcasting as a "safe space" for authentic conversation
• How LLM tools confidently lie (and why that's dangerous)
• The laziness trap: when efficiency kills effectiveness

The Coloring Book Analogy (22:31-27:39)

• Finding authenticity within corporate boundaries
• How to differentiate without going "cray-cray"
• Showing customer pain points authentically
• The golden rule applied to business communication

Market Understanding & Differentiation (27:39-37:23)

• Why most businesses don't truly understand their marketplace
• How to differentiate in commodified industries
• The importance of speaking your customer's language
• Interviewing clients as a core marketing strategy

Consistency & Long-Term Thinking (37:23-40:15)

• Why consistency beats overnight success
• How search engines and humans reward sustained effort
• Understanding where your audience actually spends time
• Building trust through reliable, authentic communication

Notable Quotes

"No marketer is really trustworthy until you actually get to know them. So I'm not even going to try to pitch myself on that."

"I don't give a shit about anything your business has to say if you're using AI. Let me see the people behind it, even if they're paid actors."

"Human to human podcast. This is the very important bit."

"Having been in business for myself for a decade now, it's like, this is the only kind of conversation I actually value because I know it's real, because you can sense the pain behind my words."

"People don't truly understand their marketplace. Go talk to the people that you're trying to serve or provide solutions to or sell a product to, whatever. Get to know them, their world."

"I always think about it like a coloring book. The lines are really what is within bound and reason for what is going to be believable."

"If you want real conversation, dish it out. Maybe that's the best answer to how can we get more genuine conversation in corporate marketing. Fucking do it. It ain't that hard."

"Business is still human. And if we're not accounting for that human factor, I wish you the best."

"Consistency is key. You need to be doing it a while for these different robotic entities to deem, 'All right, well, you're human and you do this.'"

About Kyle Merrick

Kyle Merrick is a marketing coach, actor, voice artist, and the founder of Anarchy For A Day. With nearly a decade as a marketing agency owner under his belt, Kyle now focuses on educating business owners and nonprofit leaders to think like marketing experts.

Operating at the intersection of communications engineering and resource management, Kyle specializes in helping small to midsize B2B, B2C, and nonprofit organizations craft strategic, data-driven marketing plans and messaging that drive real results. He's served industries including healthcare, hospitality, nonprofit, e-commerce, technology, and SaaS.

A "marketing vigilante" who stands to rebuild trust between organizations and marketers through education, Kyle calls BS on the rampant scams and shortcuts plaguing the industry. His philosophy? Empower through education. Separate with anarchy.

Originally from Chicago and now based in Denver, Kyle brings midwestern modesty to an industry that often rewards the immodest—and he's still figuring out how to navigate that tension.

Connect with Kyle:

• Website: anarchyforaday.com
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kylemerrickactor
• Email: anarchyforaday@gmail.com
• Book a consultation: Schedule Free Call

Kyle's Services:

• B.A. (Bachelor's of Anarchy): 10-session digital marketing bootcamp
• One Hour of Anarchy: 1:1 coaching sessions focused on your priority needs

Resources & Links Mentioned

From This Episode:

• Full Episode Transcript & Article
• Kyle Merrick's Article: "Why I Don't Give a Shit About Your AI-Generated Marketing"

Related Content on SEO Arcade:

• Podcast-Based Content Marketing Services
• Advanced Keyword Research and Content Strategy
• SEO Myths and Garbage Today
• Proper Technical SEO
• Showcasing the True Value of SEO
• In-House SEO Use Cases

Supporting Articles on Authenticity:

• Building Trust Through Authentic Marketing Strategies
• Building An Authentic Brand Voice
• The Power of Brand Voice

Example Referenced:

• Atlanta Legal Care - Example of differentiation in commodified legal services

Key Takeaways

1. Trust in marketing requires genuine human connection. No amount of polish or AI assistance can replace the authenticity that comes from real conversation and understanding your customers deeply.
2. AI-generated content lacks the human pain and authenticity that creates real engagement. Podcasting and human-to-human conversation remain critical safe spaces where audiences can sense genuine expertise and experience.
3. Differentiation in commodified markets comes from deeply understanding your customer's language. Rather than competing on features alone, businesses must invest time in knowing their audience so thoroughly that they can speak their language "unequivocally without question."
4. Consistency beats overnight success every time. Whether you're building SEO authority or establishing brand trust, algorithms and humans alike need to see sustained, authentic effort over time before they'll recognize and reward your positioning.
5. Empathy is your competitive advantage. Taking time to understand other people's worlds—through interviews, conversations, and genuine curiosity—is the foundation of effective marketing that actually works.

About The Unscripted SEO Podcast

The Unscripted SEO Podcast features real conversations with SEO professionals, digital marketers, and business owners about what actually works in search engine optimization and content marketing. Hosted by Jeremy Rivera of SEO Arcade, each episode dives deep into authentic strategies, industry insights, and the human side of digital marketing.

We believe the best marketing comes from genuine expertise and conversation, not AI-generated content or cookie-cutter approaches. That's why every episode is transcribed and transformed into comprehensive articles, social content, and resources that preserve the authentic voice of our guests.

About the Host: Jeremy Rivera is the founder of SEO Arcade and host of the Unscripted SEO Podcast, with 19+ years of experience in SEO and digital marketing. He specializes in converting podcast interviews into comprehensive SEO content marketing strategies, helping businesses build authority through authentic conversation.

Listen & Subscribe:

• Website: unscriptedseo.com
• Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
• Subscribe on Spotify
• Subscribe on YouTube
• RSS Feed

Sponsor: This podcast is brought to you by The Cookeville Sunroom Company - Quality craftsmanship, genuine care, and transforming homes one sunroom at a time.

Key Topics Covered

Service Business Branding Charlie explains why service-based businesses should "stay hyper local" rather than trying to compete regionally. His advice for finding your competitive advantage? "Don't try to be bigger. Don't try to be flashier. Don't try to be anything other than who you are."

Working with a Florida event staffing company, Charlie discovered their retention rate was in the 80-90% range. "They're the most trusted name in conference and event staff"—that became their differentiator, not trying to be the biggest.

The Two-Part Brand Audit Framework Charlie always looks for two things: "Are we being really consistent? Every touchpoint of our brand—does it look the same, does it sound the same, does it feel the same on a sales call, social media, website, emails, in-person interactions?"

Second: "Are you really leaning into your unique competitive advantage?"

Branded vs. Non-Branded Search From his time at Dave Ramsey's Ramsey Solutions, Charlie learned a crucial lesson: "If they will get their branded terms right, then you can focus on the non-branded terms." He warns that "shiny object syndrome is rampant amongst entrepreneurs" who chase non-branded traffic while neglecting the basics.

His blunt take: "Search engines are the yellow pages today. You want to make it easy for somebody to just find you like that."

The Website Problem Charlie's most surprising piece of advice for clients: "If the weight of your business lands on your website, you have a problem."

Why? Your website is just one piece of your ecosystem. "If everything in your ecosystem is speaking the same language, then it's going to work." But when there's "no cohesive experience, no ecosystem," that's when brands struggle.

Technical SEO Still Matters Charlie shares a story about his staffing client who had keywords "in the graphic at the top of our page. In a designed graphic that can't be crawled, that had no alt text. I'm like, 'Nobody cares about that and Google's not recognizing it.'"

The lesson? "You have to plant a flag in the ground and say, here I am, and make it easy for people to find you."

Is SEO Dead? Charlie's take on the AI/LLM disruption: "I don't think traditional SEO is dead still. I think it still matters." While LLMs are changing search, "somebody is still looking for what you have" and "it still matters that you match intent more than anything else."

His strategy for the AI era? "I'm pushing folks to go way more grassroots and find ways to get on podcasts with niche audiences that are actually in their ICP."

Charlie's Two Essential Switches When onboarding clients, Charlie always starts with:

1. Mindset of Curiosity: "You've got to have a mindset of curiosity. If you are certain, if you are dead set, if you are rigid in your thinking about your brand, then this is not going to go well." His favorite question: "What is it like to be on the receiving end of your brand?"
2. Hold It With an Open Hand: "We've got to zoom out and not just think end of the month, end of the quarter. We've got to think about if where we want to be a year from now is our goal. What has to be true between now and then?"

Redirecting Good Ideas One of Charlie's most valuable skills is helping clients understand placement: "Just because it doesn't belong here doesn't mean it doesn't belong somewhere." A direct-to-camera video might be perfect for an email sequence but wrong for the homepage.

Resources Mentioned

• Jason Barnard of Kalicube - Entity optimization discussion
• Matt Brooks of SEOteric - "SEO's superpower is communication"
• Michael McDougall on AI Search
• Alejandro Meyerhans of Get Me Links - LLM search behavior
• Chris Rydburg - Former Ramsey Solutions SEO
• Precast Walls - Example service business
• Atlanta Legal Care - Brand + entity association example

Connect With Charlie

Website: clarityovereverything.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/charlie-sells

Free Resource: Download Charlie's brand assessment to see if your brand is clear and aligned or confused and complex. Find "the taxes and the costs that are ruining your brand and your business" at clarityovereverything.com.

Best Quotes

"If the weight of your business lands on your website, you have a problem." - Charlie Sells

"Don't try to be bigger. Don't try to be flashier. Don't try to be anything other than who you are." - Charlie Sells

"What is it like to be on the receiving end of your brand?" - Charlie Sells

"Just because it doesn't belong here doesn't mean it doesn't belong somewhere." - Charlie Sells

"I don't think traditional SEO is dead still. I think it still matters." - Charlie Sells

Key Takeaways

• Consistency across every brand touchpoint is non-negotiable—your sales calls, website, social media, and emails should all speak the same language.
• Get your branded search terms right before chasing non-branded traffic; basic foundations like Google Business listings are still mission-critical.
• Your website shouldn't carry the full weight of your business—think ecosystem, not billboard.
• Traditional SEO fundamentals (H1 tags, alt text, proper taxonomy) still matter, even in the age of AI and LLMs.
• The best competitive advantage is often hiding in plain sight—lean into what makes you genuinely different rather than trying to be bigger or flashier.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Jeremy Rivera on the Unscripted SEO podcast by Be Sharp Digital Marketing sits down with Wyatt Bonicelli, founder of Evolve Agency in Edmond, Oklahoma, to discuss the unique challenges and opportunities in marketing home service contractors. An engineer turned marketer, Wyatt has carved out a niche helping window cleaners, roofers, and other service professionals transition from relying solely on word-of-mouth to building a sustainable online presence that generates leads on autopilot.

The conversation covers the full spectrum of local SEO—from the critical importance of Google Business Profile verification to the age-old question of "how many location pages are too many?" Wyatt shares his approach to building local authority through sponsorship link building, Chamber of Commerce memberships, and creative tactics like using ChatGPT to find partnership opportunities.

Perhaps most valuable are the practical, low-cost marketing wins Wyatt recommends: car magnets, A-frame signs, door hangers with neighbor referrals, and a brilliant gift card system that creates a built-in affiliate program for service businesses. He also drops a Google Maps "driving directions hack" that sends trust signals to Google daily.

The episode wraps with a candid discussion about lead follow-up—why 90% of service calls go unanswered and how the Harvard study showing 400% better conversion within five minutes should change how contractors approach their phones.

Key Topics Covered

• Why home service contractors struggle to invest in marketing (and how to meet them where they are)
• Google Business Profile optimization for service-area businesses without a physical address
• The location page debate: How many is too many in 2024?
• Hub-and-spoke internal linking strategy for multi-location businesses
• Creative link building through local sponsorships and advanced Google queries
• The noindex mistake that cost one client years of branded search visibility
• Steve Hunziker's gift card referral system explained
• Why LLMs haven't disrupted local SEO (yet)
• Combining Meta ads with SEO for short-term and long-term growth
• The $10/day Meta ad strategy that pre-sells door-to-door visits
• Lead follow-up statistics that should terrify every service business owner
• Low-hanging fruit: Car magnets, A-frames, and door hangers
• The Chamber of Commerce SEO bump
• Google Maps driving directions hack for daily trust signals

Quotable Moments

"Any page on your website that doesn't have a link internally, externally, it's probably not going to get indexed."

"You're 400% more likely to convert if you call within the first five minutes."

"Let's turn one lead into more. Let's try to get three or four out of every one. And that pyramid will just continue to grow."

"We're kind of in a bubble a lot of times and think that everybody else is using the tools the same way that we are."

"If they don't have any web presence at all, no online reviews or a website talking about what they do and where—it's a little harder to trust them with a big check."

Guest Bio

Wyatt Bonicelli is the founder of Evolve Agency, a digital marketing firm based in Edmond, Oklahoma specializing in web development and SEO for home service contractors. With a background in engineering, Wyatt brings a systematic, results-driven approach to helping small businesses—particularly window cleaners, roofers, and renovation contractors—build their online presence and generate leads without relying solely on word-of-mouth marketing.

• Website: EvolveAgencyOK.com
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/wyatt-bonicelli

Resources & Links Mentioned

• Evolve Agency – Wyatt's Oklahoma-based SEO agency
• SEO Playbook for Contractors – Evolve Agency
• SEO for Roofers: Building a Predictable Pipeline – Evolve Agency
• Why Most Local SEO Agencies Fail Chiropractors – Evolve Agency
• White Label Local Link Building Through Community Cleanups – SEO Arcade
• Link Building for Boring Industries – SEO Arcade
• What to Do When SEO Rankings Drop After a Site Launch – Michael McDougald, Right Thing Agency
• Zip Sprout Local Sponsor Finder (LSF) – Free tool for finding local sponsorship link opportunities
• Steve Hunziker – YouTube creator who developed the gift card referral strategy

Guest Bio

Alejandro Meyerhans is the CEO of GetMeLinks, a strategic link building agency serving agencies and CMOs. Since 2016, Alejandro has built his SEO expertise from the ground up—starting with affiliate sites, becoming a forensic SEO auditor, and eventually leading one of the industry's most respected link building operations. He's known for his data-driven approach, combining mathematics, game theory, and rigorous testing to demystify what actually works in modern link building.

Connect with Alejandro:

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/alejandro-meyerhans
• YouTube: Alejandro Meyerhans SEO
• Company: GetMeLinks.com

Key Topics Discussed

From Waiter to SEO Expert (00:00 - 04:03)

• How Alejandro discovered SEO in 2016 while trying to escape waiting tables in Spain
• Working with Dominic Wells at Onfolio (now NASDAQ-listed)
• The transition from building affiliate sites to becoming a forensic SEO auditor
• How he became CEO of GetMeLinks after being a client first
• The intersection of math, statistics, game theory, and SEO

The Science of Link Building (04:03 - 10:28)

• Why link building has intentional opacity and FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt)
• Key influencers: Charles Floate, Matt Diggity, and the TEDSEO testing community
• Understanding what's working versus understanding why it works
• The importance of analyzing competitive backlink profiles
• How to read the link graph and replicate winning strategies

Core Link Signals Beyond PageRank (10:28 - 14:35)

• PageRank: The foundational "link juice" model and how it divides authority
• Anchor text ratios: Why exact match anchors no longer work (0% in most winning profiles)
• Reasonable Surfer: Link placement matters—body links above the fold carry more weight
• Passage rank: Surrounding text relevance amplifies or diminishes link value
• Link velocity: Must be proportional to traffic, brand search volume, and referral sources
• Container authority: The power of both the linking page AND the linking domain
• Sequential timing: Why you can't start a new site with 100 digital PR links

Related Resource: How to Start a Link Building Campaign

Distance to Seed and Verticality (14:35 - 22:03)

• Understanding Google's seed list: .gov, .edu, and tier one authorities
• How topical authority spreads from hub sites in each vertical
• Why locksmith SEO is different from e-commerce which is different from YMYL
• The completion game: You only need to match top 3 competitors plus a bit more
• SEO as a jigsaw puzzle—technical foundation, content, user signals, brand signals
• The logarithmic nature of PageRank (getting from DR 80 to 90 costs exponentially more)

Related Resource: Link Building for New Websites

Link Gap Analysis Methodology (22:03 - 29:33)

• How to analyze the top 3 competitors for any given niche
• Bucketing links by DR ranges (30-40, 40-50, etc.)
• Evaluating trust through real traffic (not manipulated Ahrefs metrics)
• Geographic relevance for local businesses
• Keyword-level analysis: Different competitors for different target terms
• The risk of competing against DR 90+ inner pages with a DR 5 homepage
• Why citation-inflated DR scores are easy to spot

Get Your Own Analysis: GetMeLinks Link Report

Local Link Building and Geographic Signals (29:33 - 30:36)

• How geographic relevance functions as a trust signal
• The value of links from local institutions (chambers of commerce, local boards)
• National website links vs. local newspaper links for service businesses
• Example: Precast concrete walls serving specific cities
• Why being dramatically different in the right direction creates massive advantage

Related Resource: Local Link Building: 20 Easy Tactics That Actually Work

Understanding E-E-A-T (30:36 - 31:13)

• Why E-E-A-T is not a signal—it's a cluster of signals
• The integrity analogy: E-E-A-T = commitment to a set of values, but which values?
• Breaking down the actual components: distance to seed, high-trust backlinks
• Knowledge Graphs, Knowledge Panels, and entity verification
• Social profiles, citations, BBB listings, Amazon author pages
• Publishing books to establish expertise: Self-Published and Lousy Knowledge Panel

LLM Optimization and ChatGPT Rankings (31:13 - 41:11)

• Why LLMs use a "toddler version" of PageRank compared to Google
• The fundamental difference: LLMs rewrite stories, Google creates leaderboards
• Tier 1: Seed list sites (.gov, .edu, Mayo Clinic, Healthline)
• Tier 2: Niche-specific authorities that ChatGPT has indexed
• Tier 3: Real-time search aggregation across 20+ search engines
• How traditional SEO rankings feed into LLM source selection (80% of the answer)
• The importance of brand mentions with positive sentiment
• Why anchor text should be brand name for LLM optimization
• Consensus rules: ChatGPT defers to what the majority of sources say
• ChatGPT market share: 6 billion monthly views vs. Google's 85 billion
• Perplexity has only 10% of ChatGPT's traffic—focus on Google first

Key Insight: To rank in ChatGPT, rank on Google first. Then serve robot-readable content and build your online reputation.

The HCU (Helpful Content Update) Revelation (41:11 - 51:00)

• Darth N-A-A's theory: HCU = click behavior + distance to seed
• Why sites with massive thin content but no authority got hit first
• The birthday sites example: Programmatic content with zero backlink profile
• People Also Ask farming sites that got wiped out
• The cost vs. value framework: Google evaluated crawl expense against revenue generation
• Sites that don't run Google Ads face higher scrutiny
• Crawl efficiency matters: Response times over 200ms are "too expensive"
• How to check your site's crawl stats in Google Search Console
• The 25,000 pages found but not indexed problem (for a 200-page site)
• Helpful for whom? Helpful for Google's finances
• The 2018 removal of "Don't be evil" from Google's code of conduct
• Internal Google pressure to hit ad revenue targets affected SERP layouts

Check Your Site: Google Search Console → Settings → Crawl Stats

Operating in Platform Ecosystems (51:00 - 59:54)

• The devil's bargain: Google promised traffic in exchange for good content
• Featured snippets and AI Overviews eating the sandwich
• Zero-click searches have skyrocketed
• The Amazon FBA analogy: Build a successful product, Amazon copies it
• HubSpot, Jobber, and other platform plugin ecosystems
• Why you can't be too angry—you're playing in someone else's house
• SEOs are paid to "tamper with signals" the algorithm interprets
• Lily Ray's wisdom: "It works until it doesn't"
• Strategic vs. tactical SEO: Planning for the pivot
• The white text on white background example (hex code reading)
• We give Google signals that please them; they send us their users
• Google invested billions in search; we leverage that investment

Current Projects and Future Directions (59:54 - End)

• Active in the Chiang Mai SEO community
• Speaking at the Link Building Mastery Conference
• Developing the Entrepreneur Map and Compass framework
• Based on classical education: The Trivium and Quadrivium
• Creating a demystifying GEO/AEO/AISEO series
• Combating "chunk optimization" snake oil and $5K/month GEO services
• Reality check: "Just make sure you're ranking on your map pack"
• GetMeLinks continues refining link building science for agencies and CMOs
• Upcoming second YouTube channel for leadership and esoteric business knowledge

Key Quotes

"SEO changed my life. I didn't want to go back to being a waiter. It played to all my subjects of special interest: math, statistics, game theory, testing, language—that's how you get good SEO done." — Alejandro Meyerhans

"Building a backlink profile is a lot like chess. You don't start a brand new website and run it with 100 digital PR type of backlinks because that just doesn't fly." — Alejandro Meyerhans

"I always equate traffic with trust. If the traffic is real, not some manipulated keywords to inflate the Ahrefs graphs, then it matters." — Alejandro Meyerhans

"SEO is a game of completeness. Link building, same. You only have to be as complete as the guys in the top three, then this much more. Everything else is excess." — Alejandro Meyerhans

"E-E-A-T is not a signal, it's not something. E-E-A-T equals cluster of what? It's an amalgamation of a certain set of signals in particular." — Alejandro Meyerhans

"LLMs are rewriters of the story. Google is a game of who needs to be on this leaderboard. With LLMs, it's 'I'm going to use whatever sources I feel will tell you the most valuable story to solve your problem.'" — Alejandro Meyerhans

"How do we rank in ChatGPT? Rank on Google. Let's nail the job because all the long tail queries related to your industry, that's how it starts getting additional knowledge." — Alejandro Meyerhans

"Helpful content update—helpful for whom? Helpful for Google's finances. We cannot forget that we are making money in their home through the traffic that goes to their website." — Alejandro Meyerhans

"If you're working in somebody else's ecosystem, to quote Lily Ray, it works until it doesn't." — Jeremy Rivera

"We are going to the platform and saying, 'Hey, platform, look, I've done all these changes. Does this please you more according to the math that I know pleases you?'" — Alejandro Meyerhans

Key Takeaways

Link building is strategic, not tactical. Successful link building requires analyzing what's already winning in your niche and replicating that pattern while understanding the principles behind why it works. The answer is always in the data—competitive backlink analysis reveals the authority, relevance, and velocity needed to rank.

Core link signals extend beyond PageRank. Modern SEO considers anchor text ratios, reasonable surfer signals (link placement on page), passage rank (surrounding text relevance), link velocity proportional to traffic and brand signals, container page authority, and the proper sequencing of link types as a site matures.

SEO is a completion game, not a perfection game. You only need to be as complete as the top three competitors, then slightly better. Focus on filling gaps in your backlink profile rather than building excess links. Strategic difference matters—having what competitors don't can provide massive advantage.

Geographic and vertical relevance matter differently. Local links from institutions provide trust signals and differentiation. Different niches (locksmiths vs. e-commerce vs. YMYL) require completely different link building approaches. Always analyze the specific competitive landscape for your niche.

LLM optimization follows traditional SEO principles with brand emphasis. ChatGPT uses a tier system (seed list → niche authorities → search aggregation) where traditional Google rankings feed tier 2 and 3 placement. Brand mentions with positive sentiment, consensus across sources, and being featured on authoritative sites matter more than exact match optimization for LLM visibility.

Google's HCU targeted cost vs. value. Sites hit by helpful content updates often shared characteristics: expensive to crawl (bloated URLs, slow response times), didn't generate ad revenue for Google, lacked strong backlink profiles and brand signals. The "helpful" assessment considers Google's business model, not just user value.

Operating in platform ecosystems requires acceptance and adaptation. Whether it's Google, Amazon, or any other platform, you're playing in someone else's house. Strategic SEOs plan for algorithm changes and platform pivots rather than expecting static rules. The game is understanding what the platform needs and giving them slightly more value than you extract.

Distance to seed and trust signals form the foundation. Links from .gov, .edu, and tier one authorities (like Healthline in health) provide outsized value because they're manually vetted by search engines. Building towards and from these trust sources should be prioritized, especially early in a site's lifecycle.

Resources Mentioned

People & Influencers

• Dominic Wells - Onfolio (NASDAQ)
• Charles Floate - Gray hat SEO strategist
• Matt Diggity - SEO testing and education
• TEDSEO/TedKubaitis - SEO testing community
• Michael McDougald - Right Thing SEO
• Matt Brooks - SEOteric
• Darth N-A-A - Anonymous SEO analyst on Twitter
• Lily Ray - SEO consultant and industry expert
• Jabez Reuben - Link Building Mastery Conference

Tools & Platforms

• Ahrefs - Backlink analysis and SEO metrics
• SEMrush - Competitive research (now owned by Adobe)
• Google Search Console - Crawl stats and indexing analysis
• Screaming Frog - Website crawling tool

Conferences & Events

• Chiang Mai SEO Conference - Annual Thailand SEO event
• Link Building Mastery Conference - Specialized link building event

Companies & Services

• GetMeLinks - Link building agency
• SEO Arcade - Jeremy Rivera's consultancy
• Permacast Walls - Precast concrete walls example

Additional GetMeLinks Resources

• How to Start a Link Building Campaign: The Beginner Guide
• Link Building for New Websites: Step-by-Step Strategy
• Local Link Building: 20 Easy Tactics That Actually Work
• Tiered Link Building Guide: Using T2 Links to Unlock SEO Success
• Manual Link Building: Building Blocks for Search Engine Success
• Internal Links: How to Make An Internal Linking Structure
• Link Building Case Study: 50 to 2,970 Visitors in 5 Months
• About GetMeLinks Team

Books Mentioned

Self-Published and Lousy Knowledge Panel by Jeremy Rivera
A practical guide to establishing entity authority even with minimal traditional credentials.

Contact Information

Jeremy Rivera

• Website: SEO Arcade
• About: Jeremy Rivera Bio
• Podcast: Unscripted SEO

Alejandro Meyerhans

• Company: GetMeLinks
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/alejandro-meyerhans
• YouTube: Alejandro Meyerhans SEO

Subscribe to Unscripted SEO

Stay tuned for more unfiltered conversations with SEO experts who share real strategies, honest insights, and the mathematical principles behind what actually works in search.

Visit UnscriptedSEO.com

About This Episode

In this episode of the Unscripted SEO Podcast, host Jeremy Rivera sits down with Alison Ver Halen, founder of AV Writing Services and author of Content Marketing Made Easy. Alison shares how she accidentally fell into content marketing after graduating during the 2009 recession, and how writing blog posts for a law firm led to $75,000 in new business within just six months.

The conversation covers the evolving landscape of SEO and content marketing, including E-E-A-T principles, the Helpful Content Update, the "robot sandwich" of AI-driven search, and why storytelling remains the most powerful tool in a content marketer's arsenal.

Guest Bio

Alison Ver Halen is the founder of AV Writing Services and a content marketing strategist with nearly a decade of experience. With degrees in English and Psychology from Lawrence University, Alison helps professional service providers attract, engage, and convert high-quality leads through strategic blog content, landing pages, and brand storytelling. She is also the author of Content Marketing Made Easy.

Key Takeaways

• The $75K Blog Post Discovery: Alison's first content marketing client saw $75,000 in new business within six months—just from blog posts she was writing for his law firm
• Information Gain is Everything: The key to standing out isn't just creating content—it's adding your unique perspective, experience, and stories that ChatGPT can't replicate
• E-E-A-T is About How You Write: Rather than technical markup and author schemas, E-E-A-T signals come from first-person experience and professional perspective woven into your content
• Don't Propose on the First Date: Match your calls-to-action to where prospects are in the buyer journey—a newsletter signup beats a sales call request for top-of-funnel visitors
• The Robot Sandwich: With AI tools searching other AI outputs based on human-created content, writing for humans remains the winning strategy
• It's Still SEO, People: Despite the hype around GEO, AIEO, and AEO, the fundamentals of search engine optimization haven't changed—just the platforms
• Guest Everything: Podcasts, blogs, newsletters—earned media builds the Know-Like-Trust factor that drives real business results

Topics Discussed

• [00:00] Introduction and Alison's background
• [02:34] The $75,000 aha moment in content marketing
• [04:02] Methodology for researching and developing unique content
• [05:54] E-E-A-T: What it really means for content creators
• [10:22] The "robot sandwich" of AI-driven search
• [14:05] Understanding the buyer journey and sales funnel
• [15:51] Lead magnets and CTAs in the post-ChatGPT era
• [19:42] The Helpful Content Update and brand identity
• [26:08] GEO, AIEO, AEO—why it's still just SEO
• [27:02] Link building in the age of LLMs
• [36:49] Best practices for content quality and distribution
• [41:08] Where to find Alison Ver Halen

Notable Quotes

"After six months, he came back and told me that I had brought in $75,000 worth of business to his law firm just through the blog posts I was writing for him."

"We are primed to connect with stories, we are primed to remember stories. So that is critical for getting your point across and for being memorable."

"I refer to it as proposing on the first date. Like, well we just met, dude. That is way too much way too soon. And you're gonna scare them off."

"AI does not generate anything. It just regurgitates what humans have already created."

"It's still SEO, people. Just because the search engine has changed does not mean that it's not SEO."

Resources & Links Mentioned

Guest Links:

• Website: AV Writing Services
• LinkedIn: Alison Ver Halen
• YouTube: Alison Ver Halen Content Marketer

Articles from AV Writing Services:

• Blog Writing Services
• Using the Hero's Journey in Your Content Marketing
• Content Strategy FAQs
• The State of SEO 2023

People & Companies Mentioned:

• Michael McDougald, Right Thing Agency
• Matt Brooks, SEOteric
• Alejandro Meyerhans, GetMeLinks
• Cookeville Sunrooms

Additional Resources:

• SEO Arcade Blog
• Why Your Marketing Team Is Measuring the Wrong Things

Connect with the Podcast

• Website: Unscripted SEO Podcast
• Produced by: SEO Arcade

Subscribe & Follow

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could benefit from Alison's insights on content marketing strategy.

This episode is packed with practical insights for agency owners, consultants, and entrepreneurs who are scaling their businesses and want to avoid the costly mistakes that come with rapid growth.

Listen to the full episode: Unscripted SEO Podcast

Guest Information

Will Wang

• Company: Black Belt Consulting
• Instagram: @blackbeltconsultant
• LinkedIn: Will Wang
• Email: will@blackbeltconsulting.co

About Will: Will grew up in Sydney, Australia, worked in corporate IT making $130-150K/year before taking the leap into entrepreneurship. After two years of struggles and making every mistake possible, he built a seven-figure marketing agency which he sold 12 months ago. He's also a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belt (earned 4 years ago) and now runs Black Belt Consulting, helping businesses scale from $25K to $250K per month with strategic marketing consulting.

Key Topics & Timestamps

The Corporate Escape

• Growing up as an immigrant in Sydney, Australia
• The soul-crushing reality of corporate IT ($130-150K salary trap)
• The difficult decision: when to make the leap with a family to support
• Two years of stumbling through every possible business mistake

The $500K Hiring Mistake

• Why he hired a general manager when the business wasn't ready
• The account manager who created an unnecessary layer between clients and strategy
• The remote copywriter problem: why proximity matters for creative roles
• Key lesson: "We weren't big enough for a GM. We just needed me to spend less time working in a few of the things on the business"
• Taking full ownership: "It was all my fault... their abilities were hampered by how I supported them"

Building Lean, AI-Enabled Teams

• The shift to small core teams of highly competent people
• His new hiring framework: creativity vs. process-driven roles
• When to hire locally vs. when to leverage cost arbitrage with virtual teams
• Using online jobs.ph and Upwork strategically
• "Give people a goal, give people a vision, and then hire people who are competent and disciplined enough to do what they need to do"

SOPs and Systems for Non-Operations People

• Using Loom videos to document processes instead of writing SOPs yourself
• Having your VA or operations person create the documentation by following your recordings
• Why being the "big picture creative" doesn't mean you can't systematize

AI for Market Research (Not Delivery)

• How customer research went from weeks to minutes
• Using ChatGPT and Claude to build detailed customer avatars
• The critical rule: "Nothing that gets delivered to clients is actually AI done"
• AI for research, humans for delivery—that's the framework
• Building AI-enabled teams in 2025

Content Strategy & Platform Bets for 2025

• Going all-in on YouTube: "YouTube is the big one for me. I'm investing a lot into that this year"
• The Instagram surprise: small audience generating hundreds of views with long-term growth
• Why he's bearish on LinkedIn: "It just feels so transactional and kind of day by day"
• Platform-specific content approaches: perfection for ads, human-to-human for video, fluidity for blogs
• "I don't like creating content once and then having it just disappear into the ether"

Service Business Marketing

• Why service businesses are actually easier (limited geography = less competition)
• The comeback of direct mail for local service businesses
• Using Meta ads and Google ads with geographic targeting
• "Just go direct" - the simplest strategy for local services

The Franchise Question

• The value of systems when you haven't run a business before
• Trade-offs: less mistakes vs. less freedom to learn
• When franchising makes sense vs. bootstrapping
• "It's just a balance of where you want to go, what works for you, what skills you have"

The Accidental Seven-Figure Build

• "I accidentally built my previous business into a seven figure business without really meaning to"
• Selling the business 12 months ago
• What he's doing differently with Black Belt Consulting
• The strategic gap: "What people are missing is the strategic piece"

Featured Links & Resources

Guest Links

• Black Belt Consulting - Will's consulting firm
• Instagram: @blackbeltconsultant
• LinkedIn: Will Wang

Podcast Links

• Unscripted SEO Podcast
• Host: Jeremy Rivera, SEO Arcade

SEO & Marketing Resources

• SEO Arcade - Jeremy's SEO forecasting and consulting
• SEO Consulting Services
• Search Behavior Evolution
• Multi-Channel Marketing Strategy

Companies & Services Mentioned

• Permacast Walls - Precast concrete walls example
• Your Pie Franchise - Pizza franchise business model
• SEOteric - Matt Brooks' SEO consultancy
• Riverstone Pools - Pool installation services
• Online Jobs PH - Hiring platform for virtual assistants
• Upwork - Freelancer marketplace
• Loom - Video recording tool for SOPs

Tools Mentioned

• ChatGPT - AI research assistant
• Claude - AI research assistant
• Stripe - Billing/payment processing
• Reddit - Customer research
• LinkedIn Jobs - Recruiting platform

Quotable Moments

On Making the Leap:

"If I don't do this now, then it's never going to get done. But how do you replace $130,000 per year salary? Right? Like that's pretty difficult."

On Building Accidentally:

"I accidentally built my previous business into a seven figure business without really meaning to. It was just like the growth happened."

On Making Mistakes:

"I made every single mistake to the point where I couldn't make any more mistakes. And then the business kind of took off."

On the Hiring Disaster:

"I've probably personally lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in terms of hiring the wrong people, setting them up for failure, setting them up in the wrong way."

"We weren't big enough for a GM. Like we just did not need a general manager. We just needed me to spend less time working in a few of the things on the business."

On Team Building:

"I like having a very small core team of highly competent people. People who you don't necessarily have to micromanage or have a look at what they're doing every single day of the week."

On AI Research:

"AI has made research just such an easy thing to do. Rather than taking days, if not weeks, it's now delivered in a matter of minutes."

"Nothing that we do that gets delivered to clients or that we tell clients to deliver for themselves—none of that is actually AI done. So the output is still very hands on human."

On AI Hallucination:

"There's just so much BS with AI. It hallucinates so much stuff all the time. So you've got to be very, very careful."

On Platform Strategy:

"YouTube is the big one for me. I'm investing a lot into that this year."

"LinkedIn just feels like it's so transactional and kind of day by day at the moment. So I'm a little bit bearish on LinkedIn, but more bullish on video content now."

"I don't like creating content once and then having it just disappear into the ether."

On Content Persistence:

"The fact that we can post a reel up and get long-term growth and every single day it grows—that's kind of surprising to me because it means that the content's sticking around."

On Service Business Marketing:

"As companies start ignoring direct mail or fight to do purely online, I find that the offline has really started to come around and perform a lot better."

On What's Missing:

"With AI coming through, the marketing execution stuff is actually so easy now. What people are missing is the strategic piece."

On His New Approach:

"If you're doing 25K a month and you want to get to 250K, hit me up."

Key Takeaways

1. Don't hire for the business you wish you had - Hire for the actual stage you're at right now. Will's $500K lesson was hiring a GM and account manager when he just needed to delegate specific tasks, not entire roles.
2. Proximity matters for creative roles - Junior creative positions benefit massively from sitting next to senior people. Remote works for process-driven roles with clear SOPs.
3. AI for research, humans for delivery - Use AI to compress research timelines from weeks to minutes, but keep human oversight and creation for anything client-facing.
4. Small teams of A+ players > Large teams of B players - Focus on highly competent people who don't need micromanagement rather than building layers of management.
5. Platform strategy matters in 2025 - YouTube and Instagram are becoming more valuable for consultants than LinkedIn due to content persistence and less transactional engagement.
6. Direct mail is making a comeback - For local service businesses, offline channels are outperforming as everyone else goes all-in on digital.
7. The strategic gap is the opportunity - With AI making execution easier, the real value is in strategic thinking and positioning.
8. SOPs don't require operations people - Record Loom videos of you doing tasks, have someone else document them. Perfect for creative/big picture founders.
9. Cost arbitrage still works - For roles with clear processes and less creative thinking, virtual hiring (Philippines, etc.) provides excellent value.
10. Franchises trade freedom for systems - Great for first-time business owners, less ideal for experienced entrepreneurs who want flexibility.

About the Host

Jeremy Rivera is the founder of SEO Arcade, host of the Unscripted SEO Podcast, and has 19+ years of SEO experience. He specializes in converting podcast interviews into comprehensive content marketing strategies and connecting SEO tactics to actual business outcomes.

Jeremy has worked in-house, at agencies (both good and bad), as a successful freelancer, and now runs SEO Arcade's whitelabel podcast-based content and link building service for agencies and businesses.

Subscribe & Connect

Never miss an episode:

• Subscribe to the Unscripted SEO Podcast
• Follow on your favorite podcast platform
• Sign up for the weekly #SEObits newsletter at SEO Arcade

Connect with Jeremy:

• SEO Arcade
• LinkedIn: Search for Jeremy Rivera SEO

Related Episodes & Content

If you enjoyed this episode, you might also like:

• Matt Brooks (SEOteric) on the end of Google-only SEO
• Michael McDougall on AI as "your least trained customer support representative"
• Our series on search behavior evolution and the robot sandwich problem

Episode Length: ~47 minutes

Episode Format: Unscripted conversation

Best For: Agency owners, consultants, entrepreneurs scaling service businesses, marketers interested in AI integration and platform strategy

This episode of the Unscripted SEO Podcast brings you real conversations with real SEO professionals about their journeys, mistakes, and insights. No scripts, no PR-approved talking points—just honest discussion about what works (and what doesn't) in building marketing businesses.

Kyle Bailey

• Founder, Front Burner Marketing
• 15 years in home service digital marketing
• Former tradesman turned SEO specialist
• Author of upcoming book: What's Your Story? The Path to Connection with a Homeowner

Connect with Kyle:

• LinkedIn: The Kyle Bailey
• Website: FrontBurnerMarketing.net
• Twitter/X: @FrontBurnerMarketing

Key Topics Discussed

The Unique Challenges of Home Service Marketing (02:00)

• The attention gap problem: business owners are firefighters and babysitters
• Why before-and-after photography is critical but difficult to execute
• Kyle's hands-on approach: driving to clients in Texas to handle photography personally
• The urgent need to adapt to AI-driven search changes

Your Story as Your Superpower (04:00)

• Every home service business has a unique story that competitors lack
• How to identify and articulate your core values
• The difference between shotgun vs. rifle messaging (broad vs. focused)
• Employee, friend, and customer audits to discover hidden core values
• Why story-based differentiation creates genuine connection with ideal customers

Key Resource: What's Your Story? - Front Burner Marketing

The Franchise Limitation (06:30)

• Why only 3 out of 100 franchises can effectively compete in local SEO
• Corporate restrictions on messaging, location pages, and customization
• The Quiznos cautionary tale
• Due diligence steps before buying a pizza franchise or any franchise
• Free discovery calls available to assess franchise SEO viability

Community Co-Marketing: Driving Past Free Money (10:00)

• The "barrel of $100 bills at every red light" concept
• Neighborhood signage opportunities: 30-second content goldmine
• Co-marketing with complementary trades (painters, siders, window companies)
• How to create video content on job sites with partners
• Transcribing videos into blog posts for multiple websites
• The professional advantage: extracting marketing value from daily activities

Related Article: Matt Brooks of SEOteric on nexus-based link building

Example Businesses:

• Permacast Walls (precast concrete walls)
• Newton Crouch (renovations)

Community Cleanups and Local Link Building (21:00)

• Why community cleanups work on Reddit (when normal promotion fails)
• Keep America Beautiful: National nonprofit with county-level support
• Community Clean Links - organizing community cleanup initiatives
• SEO benefits: event directories, national aggregators, Google event SERP
• Brand mentions directly in search results
• Documentation strategy: branded team, photos, no pitching

The AI Search Reality (24:00)

• Michael McDougald's quote: "Your least trained but most popular customer support representative is ChatGPT"
• Kyle's Dallas remodeling company: dominant on Google, invisible on ChatGPT
• "You're out of time" - the urgency of adapting to AI platforms

The 80/20 AI Strategy (26:00)

• 80% effort: telling your story cleanly and authentically
• 20% effort: strategic positioning for ChatGPT, Perplexity, Claude, Gemini
• Weekly tracking experiment: "Chicago plumber" across all platforms
• Early volatility vs. emerging consistency in AI results
• How to monitor what competitors are doing in AI search

Related Service: AI SEO at Front Burner Marketing

Website Shift: Discovery vs. Vetting Device (28:00)

• The old model: 10 blue links leading to discovery
• The new model: users vet you after AI/maps/reviews discovery
• Google's evolution: ads → maps → People Also Ask → featured snippets → AI Overview → Reddit
• AI summaries now appearing in Google Business Profile descriptions
• How AI interprets and summarizes content (not direct quotes)

The Investment Reframe (30:00)

• Why $30,000/year feels expensive but $15/hour feels cheap
• Calendar mining: extracting marketing value from existing activities
• The compound effect of consistent SEO investment over 3-5 years
• Professional services as high-end employees, not expenses

Explore Services: Local SEO Services at Front Burner Marketing

Best Quotes

"If you're a home service business owner, I can almost guarantee you you're driving past free money every day. Just think—every red light you come to, there's a barrel of $100 bills over there and you just drive right by it."

"Your website's now a vetting device rather than a discovery device because of the changes Google had already made."

"You're out of time. You're in that movie scene where the ferry's pulling away, but the ramp's still down and the car's trying to jump over. That's where you are right now."

"If you could only say one thing to your homeowner, what would it be? That takes some time, some effort, and some meditation."

"When you connect on core values with your ideal customer, they feel something. Even if they never buy from you, they feel it."

Key Takeaways

✅ Home service businesses need to prioritize storytelling over keyword optimization. The most effective marketing starts with identifying and communicating core values that differentiate you from competitors in commoditized markets.

✅ Co-marketing with complementary businesses is massively underutilized. Simple actions like taking selfie videos with painters, plumbers, or other trades on job sites creates authentic content, builds local authority, and generates natural brand mentions across multiple websites.

✅ AI search is fundamentally changing the discovery process. Business owners can no longer afford to wait—80% of effort should focus on clear storytelling while 20% should go toward strategic positioning in ChatGPT, Perplexity, and other LLM platforms.

✅ Neighborhood-level content is free money. Taking 30 seconds to photograph neighborhood signage and create location-specific content for every job creates micro-location pages that dominate local search without significant investment.

✅ Franchise models severely limit local SEO effectiveness. Out of 100 franchise conversations, only about 3 can make the necessary changes to compete effectively in local search due to corporate restrictions on messaging and website customization.

✅ Community involvement must be documented and linked strategically. Sponsoring cleanups, attending galas, and supporting local organizations only generates SEO value when properly documented with photos, links, and cross-promotional content across multiple platforms.

✅ The days of H-tag and keyword optimization are over. If your SEO isn't part of telling your authentic story, you're building on sand. Modern algorithms and AI platforms reward authority, authenticity, and relevance.

Guest

Lisa Corwood
Founder, Fuelled Agency

• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• YouTube

Topics Covered

• (00:01) Introduction and Lisa's background
• (00:18) The origin story: From UK car dealership to agency
• (02:15) Creative community engagement vs. traditional advertising
• (04:13) Facebook Groups and providing genuine value
• (06:01) The "spray and pray" problem on Reddit and social platforms
• (07:05) Ad blindness and brand values alignment
• (08:51) Building content ecosystems that connect
• (10:59) Why "boring" industries have the most passionate audiences
• (13:14) Showing your team and humanizing your brand
• (15:06) The "20 leads" question: Testing your funnel
• (16:54) Co-marketing with complementary businesses
• (18:44) Search Everywhere Optimization: The multi-platform customer journey
• (21:20) The accelerating pace of change in digital marketing
• (23:24) AI content, "slop," and the trust problem
• (25:22) Gen Alpha's skepticism toward AI-generated content
• (27:57) What's next for Fuelled Agency in 2026

Key Quotes

"If you're going to go in there, don't just walk in a room and shout what you're saying and go out. Treat it as if it's a group of people—not a place to just spray and pray."

"No matter what business it is—if it's selling a product, if it's shiny, if it's Lamborghinis or diamond rings—behind all of that is a team that makes that happen. Tell everybody about it!"

"If you got 20 leads right now into your business, where would they go and what would happen with them? If you don't have an answer to that, there's something you need to look at."

"Customers will hop from one platform to the other to get what they are looking for. They won't just take a five-star review as gospel."

"I'm not against AI—but use it in collaboration, in conjunction. You can't solely rely on it."

Resources & Links Mentioned

Lisa's Agency & Socials

• Fuelled Agency
• Fuelled Agency Services
• Creators Club
• Lisa on LinkedIn
• Lisa on Instagram
• Lisa on YouTube

Industry Resources

• Search Everywhere Optimization Guide – Single Grain
• Search Everywhere Optimization – Backlinko
• Facebook Groups Marketing – Sprout Social
• Brand Differentiation Strategies – Frontify
• AI Slop & Trust Erosion – SoftServe
• AI Search Visibility by 2026 – Right Thing SEO

People & Companies Referenced

• Matt Brooks, SEOteric
• Community Clean Links
• Atlanta Legal Care
• Permacast Walls
• Stair Handrail

Related Unscripted SEO Episodes

• Keith Breseé: The People First Framework
• Darcy Sullivan: Local SEO for Health & Wellness
• Cindy Krum: Mobile-First Indexing

Quick Takeaways

1. Lead with value in communities — Treat Facebook Groups and online forums like rooms full of real people, not billboards.
2. Ask the "20 leads" question — If 20 leads came in today, do you know where they'd go and what would happen? If not, fix your funnel.
3. No industry is boring — The more "boring" your business seems, the more passionate your niche audience likely is. Feature your team and customers.
4. Search Everywhere Optimization matters — Customers now verify across TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and Google before buying. Consistency builds trust.
5. Co-marketing beats competition — Partner with adjacent businesses to share audiences and marketing resources.
6. AI is a tool, not a strategy — Use AI to assist, but don't let it replace authentic content and human judgment.

Episode Overview

Tianna Mamalick shares her 12-year journey in SEO and why she's passionate about working with small businesses. With honest insights on managing client expectations, pairing SEO with paid ads, and the current state of AI-generated content, this conversation reveals what's actually working for service-based businesses right now.

Key Discussion Points

Why Small Businesses? For small businesses, a 10K monthly revenue increase is life-changing. Tianna shares how clients email her about hiring their first employee or taking their first vacation—results that go far beyond vanity metrics.

Managing Expectations Brutally honest approach: clients sign for three months minimum, must have budget they can afford to lose, and receive realistic assessments of whether their business model fits the proven formula.

SEO + Ads Strategy When done strategically, pairing ads with SEO helps prime new location pages and service pages through engagement, even though ads don't directly impact SEO rankings.

The AI Content Reality After extensive testing: AI-generated content isn't ranking. Tianna's agency went 100% back to human-written content, using AI only for outlines based on top-ranking articles.

Content Strategy Shifts

• Focus on service pages over blog posts
• Every service needs its own detailed page
• Mine customer support logs and sales calls for real language
• Create collaboration posts featuring complementary businesses

AI Search Adoption Despite the hype, less than 10% of traffic comes from ChatGPT for most small businesses. Prepare by enriching About pages and author bios, but don't panic about immediate massive shifts.

Resources Mentioned

• Andy Crestodina & Content Chemistry
• SEOteric - Matt Brooks
• Get Me Links - Alejandro Marinas
• Gus Pelogia interview on SEO's universal superpower
• Michael McDougald, Right Thing Agency
• Precast Walls - service business example

Best Quote

"People want to work with people they like, know and trust. It's not just about the backlink. We're really looking at conversions—how can we get SEO to convert for you?" — Tianna Mamalick

Connect with Tianna

• Website: smbmarketingschool.com
• Instagram: @smbmarketingschool
• Funnel Summit - January 28th

Key Takeaways

✓ Service pages first: Make product and service pages comprehensive before worrying about blog content

✓ Human content wins: AI-generated articles aren't ranking—use AI for outlines, humans for writing

✓ Record everything: Mine sales calls, customer support logs, and front-line staff conversations for gold

✓ Every service gets a page: Stop using menu-style service listings—create detailed individual pages

✓ Social media SEO matters: Talk about your actual services consistently across all platforms, not just in your bio

This conversation explores the evergreen principles that have survived every "SEO is dead" cycle, the critical gaps in SEO education, and why AI is both a productivity tool and a source of strategic confusion for businesses. Matt and Jeremy discuss the importance of conversion optimization, the holistic webmaster approach that got lost in the 2010-2020 era of easy Google traffic, and why understanding content, context, and community remains fundamental to digital marketing success.

Key Topics Covered:

• Why newspaper layout principles from 1995 still drive SEO success today
• The 18-24 month shelf life of SEO educational content
• Enterprise red tape horror stories (drug tests for editing 10 pages!)
• Why LLMs are "like pre-Google search" and the shiny object syndrome around AI
• The seven strategic questions every business needs to answer before tactics
• How to remove friction down the funnel and leverage your website correctly
• Why social traffic behavior differs dramatically from search and blog referrals

Guest

Matt Bailey

• Founder & CEO, SiteLogic Marketing
• 30+ years in digital marketing (since 1995)
• OMCP contributor and instructional design expert
• Former Microsoft Worldwide Education consultant
• Website: sitelogic.com
• Learning Platform: learn.sitelogic.com
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mattbaileysitelogic

Extended Recap

The Origin Story: From Journalism to Pre-Google SEO

Matt Bailey's journey into digital marketing began in an unexpected place—journalism school. While he quickly realized journalism wasn't his calling, the education gave him something invaluable: an understanding of how to lay out content for quick consumption. Headlines, subheadings, bullet points—these newspaper design principles became the foundation of his website development approach in 1995-96.

Working in real estate at the time, Matt started building websites as electronic versions of printed pages. What he didn't realize initially was that the markup he was using for visual layout was exactly what early search engines needed. This was the AltaVista era, where SEOs would spend entire nights resubmitting pages to chase rankings.

When Google arrived, Matt's content-first approach paid immediate dividends. Pages structured with clear hierarchy and reader-focused design performed well naturally. This early lesson—that optimizing for visitors and optimizing for search engines aren't separate goals—would become a through-line in his entire career.

The Analytics Awakening

A pivotal moment came when Matt was working on real estate websites and asked himself: "What can I do on the website that will have the biggest impact?" He didn't have an answer. That question forced him to learn analytics, starting with Web Trends (anyone who's worked with Web Trends knows the pain of the day-long setup-and-pray cycle).

Learning analytics transformed how Matt approached B2B lead generation. It wasn't just about getting traffic anymore—it was about understanding user behavior, measuring engagement, and connecting digital activity to business outcomes. This analytical mindset would distinguish his work throughout his agency years.

Building SEO Departments and Breaking Free

Throughout the late '90s and early 2000s, Matt moved through multiple ad agencies in the Midwest, where B2B industrial and B2B services dominated the landscape. At two different agencies, he built entire SEO and digital marketing departments from scratch. But after doing this twice for other people, he had the realization many agency professionals eventually reach: "I think I can do this for myself."

In 2006, Matt founded SiteLogic as a client services company focused specifically on website marketing, auditing, and promotion—deliberately avoiding the development side to maintain focus on their sweet spot.

The Training Pivot and OMCP Contributions

Around 2015-2016, Matt faced a crossroads. He had developed a parallel business of teaching and training, working with direct marketing associations, travel associations, and automotive associations. He was traveling constantly, speaking to industry audiences about digital marketing tactics and strategy. The demands of running both an agency and a training business forced a choice.

Matt chose training, transforming SiteLogic into a training company. During this period, he also contributed significantly to the OMCP (Online Marketing Certified Professional Organization), helping define what makes an SEO professional. What does an SEO need to know? What are the core competencies? How do you test for those skills? These weren't just academic questions—they shaped how the industry thinks about professional development.

His commitment to education went even deeper: Matt went back to school for a degree in instructional design to understand how to teach 30 years of digital marketing according to educational pedagogy. He's currently working on his master's degree in digital marketing to teach at the undergraduate level.

The Education Problem: Textbooks and the Metaverse

Jeremy brought up a problem he's encountered working with universities in Nashville through colleagues Ross Jones and Michael McDougald of Right Thing SEO Agency: university SEO programs are typically eight years behind current practice.

Matt confirmed this isn't unique to SEO. When creating training materials for organizations like LinkedIn, Simply Learn, Udemy, and Udacity, he's upfront about reality: SEO course content has a shelf life of 18-24 months maximum. LinkedIn does regular updates, but many educational providers have content that's 10-15 years old still on the market.

The problem runs deeper in traditional academia. Matt shared teaching an undergraduate marketing class last semester where the textbook—only 18 months old—had an entire chapter on how the metaverse would change marketing. Already obsolete. Even worse, the textbook authors were all PhDs who had never held actual marketing jobs. They'd consulted, but had never dealt with the politics of getting ideas approved internally, never had to compromise because IT wouldn't support their vision, never had to play the real-world game.

This disconnect between academic theory and practical implementation affects not just SEO but many marketing disciplines. Academia is starting to ask the right questions, but structural barriers remain.

Enterprise Red Tape: The HCA Horror Story

Jeremy shared a personal enterprise red tape nightmare: editing 10 pages for HCA as a subcontractor of a subcontractor of an agency required a drug test, three separate sign-ons, using only their laptop, and sitting in a room with a security guard to ensure he didn't abscond with their secured device.

Matt's response: "It's absolutely insane." But both agreed this is the reality of enterprise SEO work, echoing McDougald's observation that "the most expensive thing in SEO is red tape."

The Evergreen Principles: What Never Changes

Jeremy posed the critical question: From 1995 to now, through every "SEO is dead" cycle (mobile-first, voice search, HCU, and inevitably whatever comes next), what are the through lines that remain true?

Matt's answer cuts to the heart of why he's never liked the term "SEO":

"Search engine optimization" implies you only care about the search engine. What are you really optimizing? Ideally, you're optimizing for visitors, for conversion, for engagement. These visitor-centered principles are what's evergreen.

Matt goes back to his origin story: building websites like newspaper pages. Layout, readability, content—that's never changed. Yes, there were tactical experiments—doorway pages, black hat techniques for affiliate and Forex clients. But Matt's B2B lead generation clients couldn't take those risks. His approach was content, PR, and building links with associated businesses. Those skills are evergreen.

Critically, Matt emphasized: "After learning SEO, if you're not learning conversion optimization, you've lost the game." That's where you maximize your efforts.

When people say "SEO is dead," Matt interprets that as "the old tactics are dead." But writing engaging content that reaches visitors, answers questions, and converts customers? Those skills never die.

The Holistic Webmaster Approach: Lost in the 2010-2020 Comfort Zone

Jeremy and Matt Brooks at SEOteric frequently discuss a critical blindness in the industry: what you do with traffic after it arrives is as important as how you got it there.

But somewhere along the way, organizations siloed everything: social media managers handle social traffic, PPC teams manage paid landing pages, SEO controls the blog, brand managers own certain sections. This fragmentation misses massive opportunities.

Jeremy's call to action: "Let's go back to 1998 and reestablish ourselves as webmasters." Look at this holistically. Email sends lead to branded search. Organic social leads to website traffic, which leads to newsletter conversions, which leads to email traffic that still needs converting. These channels aren't isolated—they're interconnected.

The problem emerged during the 2010-2020 comfort zone when Google traffic was so abundant that SEOs could operate in isolation. They didn't need to talk to the email team, the PPC team, or the social media team. Just publish blog posts, build backlinks, and claim credit for all traffic—even when $20,000 in radio and video ads drove massive brand search volume.

Why was ignoring brand traffic ever acceptable? It's the singular signal of market awareness of your business and industry. But because SEOs couldn't control it through blog posts alone, many pretended it didn't matter. That was madness.

Matt confirmed this holistic understanding actually gives SEOs an advantage: OMCP job delineation studies show SEOs have more of a track toward management and leadership than other disciplines precisely because they have their fingers in multiple areas. They understand integration, measurement, and how channels work together.

Specialization vs. Multi-Discipline: The Agency Advantage

Jeremy asked whether significant differences exist between verticals—e-commerce vs. B2B lead generation—and whether SEOs should be multi-disciplinary.

Matt loves this question because it highlights what made agency work so valuable. Having multiple client types exposed him to different requirements: e-commerce needs additional UX/UI skills and database understanding; B2B lead generation has different conversion paths; publishing and affiliate work each have unique demands.

Being able to say "I've worked in B2B lead gen, e-commerce, publishing, and affiliate" opens doors. That breadth of experience enables bouncing between industries—travel, automotive, advertising, brand work—with relative ease. The agency experience provides that exposure early in a career.

The AI Elephant: Three Reddit Threads of Lost SEO Jobs

Jeremy brought up the anxiety in every SEO's mind: CEOs declaring "AI, ChatGPT, we need GEO, we need AI SEO, we don't need an SEO budget anymore." He'd seen three different Reddit threads where SEOs lost their jobs because executives determined SEO was obsolete—instead, they needed to "make content and get articles placed so LLM bots can find mentions and links."

The irony isn't lost on either of them.

Matt's response is direct: "SEO works. It still works. In fact, SEO works on LLMs." They look at the same signals, and honestly, LLMs are like early search engines—almost like pre-Google search right now.

He's amazed by companies jumping on tracking "visibility in LLMs" when even two people using ChatGPT with the same prompt get different answers. How do you track that? How do you measure prompt variations across millions of users? We're back to rank checking, which is fundamentally flawed.

Matt's diagnosis: "It's a lot of shiny objects right now. A ton of shiny objects."

The Strategy Problem: No CRM, But Let's Do AI!

Basic, well-done SEO still works. But it must be combined with good marketing dependent on clear strategy.

Most businesses Matt consults with that are enthralled by AI share a common problem: they don't have a clear strategy. They don't understand what they're trying to accomplish, how they'll accomplish it, or what process they'll use.

One company wanted AI to generate leads and content but didn't even have a CRM in place. No backend process to handle what the frontend would generate. This thinking makes shiny objects take off.

We've seen this pattern before: metaverse, NFTs, big data. Everyone thinks the new thing will save their business. If you don't have clear strategy driving your marketing decisions, you're going to lose.

The AI downside? Losses will take longer to realize. Companies firing people because "AI can write articles" won't see the impact immediately. But it's coming.

The AI Slop Problem: 90% AI-Generated Blogs

Matt looked at a site recently where 90% of blog content was AI-generated. You don't need to be a high-level AI user to spot it—just look at the pages. And the blog doesn't perform well. It's generic, average content.

AI can't create something truly new. You can feed it information, create custom GPTs, and those help. But if you're just using AI to pump out content volume, you're creating slop.

If you want strategic approach, branding, audience engagement, and conversion with all the backend operations required—you need people to manage that. AI can't do that effectively yet, and Matt doesn't think we'll see it soon.

Conversion: The Seven Strategic Questions

Jeremy asked about what AI and LLMs definitively can't do: make site edits that positively impact conversion rate.

Matt starts every client conversation with seven strategic questions before touching tactics:

1. Who are you? (brand identity, personality, tone)
2. What's your objective?

These two questions are the client's responsibility. Only then can Matt do the research:

3. Who's the audience?
4. Who are our different audience segments?
5. Do we need to modify messaging per segment?
6. Do we need to reach audiences differently?
7. How do we measure success?

The problem? Most marketers and SEOs immediately jump to tactics: which social media, posting frequency, posting times. They skip the foundational conversation about audiences, needs, location, message quality, competitive differentiation, and communication effectiveness.

Those foundations aren't things LLMs excel at. It requires planning, framework development, then execution.

The Microsoft Example: What SMBs Really Want

Matt worked with Microsoft Worldwide Education for five years, going to different offices and working with marketing and operations teams. A common scenario: asking "Who's your target customer?" for selling Microsoft Office to small business owners.

Invariably, the myopia would take over: "They need a full-service suite that integrates all their content..." They'd describe Word, Excel, cloud storage—product features.

Matt would stop them: "That's not what small to medium business owners want. They want to make payroll. They want to be more efficient and spend less time at the office. They want their people to accomplish more."

Until you change your language to those needs, they'll dismiss you. It's about fitting the product to the need, not hammering prospects with product attributes expecting them to make the connection themselves.

The "Enterprise Solutions" Problem

How often is "enterprise solutions" overused in SEO? It's a nonsense phrase that means nothing.

Matt's grandmother would say: "You have got to change your language." It doesn't resonate with your audience. You're not meeting their need. You're hammering your brand attributes expecting them to see the connection—and they don't.

The "Which Is Your Copy?" Test

Jeremy has done audits where he copies homepage text from the client and a competitor (or even a totally different industry) and asks: "Which is your copy?"

"You excel at customer service" but so does everyone else. One does restaurant rebrands, another is an industrial carpenter. Your pretty-sounding sales phrases mean nothing to readers, to SEOs, and to LLMs.

One of Jeremy's previous interviewees observed: "ChatGPT is your least trained customer service representative." For them, for SEO, and for your readers, you need to examine what your content actually does to support your business.

Removing Friction Down the Funnel

Are you providing sample shop drawings for precast walls that construction teams need for RFPs to counties? No? They need those to get bids. If you're not providing them, you're forcing them to create their own—or they'll go to a competitor who provides that resource.

If you're not thinking about friction down the funnel that prevents sales, you're not leveraging your website correctly.

That's what it's really about: you have a fantastic tool where clients and potential clients can get information without mailing books or requiring one-on-one conversations. It's an incredible opportunity.

That's why digital marketing budgets increase by billions of dollars every year. A huge portion will always be SEO spend, but it should be considered part of your marketing strategy: How do we use this tool to its best capability?

The Positive Side of AI: Better Questions, Better Content

Matt sees AI having positive effects: some content is being written so much better, much more in-depth, answering real questions.

When SEOs publish "here's the template that works," Matt thinks: that template is 20 years old. It's about depth, question-answering, and being found for questions people are actually asking.

If you haven't been researching those questions for 20 years, welcome to the party—AI is helping you understand questions better.

AI as a Thousand Interns

Jeremy's "least trained customer service rep" metaphor resonates, but Matt reframes it: "AI is like having a thousand interns."

They work fast, but you still need someone to refine edges, clarify, improve writing, and finalize it.

Matt's team recently rewrote all content for a site because it was too thin. They used AI, but 30% of the project was keyword research—not just finding ranking keywords, but understanding: What are people asking? How do they formulate questions? What words do they use? How do you organize what people want and translate that into answers?

Then develop that in the brand's tone and personality, highlighting distinctive characteristics. Instead of saying "we have great customer service," define what that means. How does your customer service work? Why do people like it? List specifics.

Generalities don't work. But when you define specifics? It works great in AI and it works great in Google.

Key Quotes

On the term "SEO":

"I have never liked the term SEO, search engine optimization, because what are you truly optimizing? Ideally, you're optimizing for visitors, you're optimizing for their conversion, you are optimizing for their engagement."

On evergreen skills:

"I built websites as if I was creating a newspaper page. The layout, the readability, the content, that's never changed."

On conversion optimization:

"After learning SEO, if you're not learning conversion optimization, you've lost the game because that's where you really maximize what you've done."

On AI and LLMs:

"SEO works. It still works. In fact, SEO works on LLMs. They look at the same things and honestly, LLMs are like early search engines. It's almost like pre-Google search right now."

On strategy vs. tactics:

"If you don't have clear strategy that drives your marketing and your marketing decisions, you're going to lose."

On understanding customer needs:

"That's not what a small to medium sized business owner wants. What they want is to make payroll. They want to be more efficient and spend less time at the office. They want their people to be able to accomplish more."

On AI's role:

"AI is like having a thousand interns. They could do it speedy, but it still required someone to knock off the edges, clarify, add some better writing and get it there."

Resources Mentioned

Tools & Platforms:

• Web Trends (analytics, early 2000s)
• AltaVista (pre-Google search engine)
• ChatGPT / LLMs

Organizations:

• OMCP (Online Marketing Certified Professional Organization)
• Market Motive
• LinkedIn Learning
• Simply Learn
• Udemy
• Udacity

Companies/Case Studies:

• Microsoft Worldwide Education
• HCA Healthcare (enterprise red tape example)

Connect with Matt Bailey

Website: sitelogic.com
Learning Platform: learn.sitelogic.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/mattbaileysitelogic

Matt's Coached Courses

Matt offers hands-on coached courses (limited to 5 students per cohort) covering:

• Content marketing
• SEO analytics
• How to present analytics
• Customer research
• In-depth keyword research
• Market research

These courses include personal coaching, hands-on assignments, real-world activities from agency work, and portfolio development.

Connect with Jeremy Rivera

Website: jeremyriveraseo.com
SEO Arcade: seoarcade.com
Podcast: unscriptedseo.com

Related Episodes

• Joy Hawkins on Local SEO - Voice search and local optimization strategies
• Grant Simmons on Corporate to Freelance SEO - B2B lead generation and enterprise SEO
• Julian Goldie on AI and SEO - Building an SEO agency and YouTube channel

Josh Squires is an Associate Director of SEO at Amsive with 17 years of experience spanning freelance, in-house, agency, and consultancy work. He helped launch the SEO practice at Tableau and has worked extensively across DTC, e-commerce, Shopify, and SaaS sectors.

Connect with Josh:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshsquiresrva/
• SEO Slack: No Learners SEO Slack channel

Key Takeaways

Communication is SEO's Hidden Superpower - The most effective SEOs function like UN diplomats, translating technical requirements into language that resonates with developers, executives, and stakeholders. Without implementation, even the smartest SEO strategy means nothing.

Content Volume is Dead, Strategic Relevance is King - Google is actively rejecting low-quality blog content that doesn't serve user intent. The winning strategy focuses on middle and bottom-funnel content that directly supports conversions, including brand comparisons and product use cases that audiences are already searching for in LLMs.

Systems Thinking Separates Good SEOs from Great Ones - Modern SEO requires understanding how search engines, LLMs, social platforms, and email systems interconnect. Success comes from pulling levers that create ripple effects across multiple channels, not just optimizing for a single platform.

Entity Building Requires Multi-Channel Brand Investment - Establishing a recognized entity goes far beyond on-page optimization. It demands consistent NAP data across directories, strategic backlink building from industry publications, social proof in relevant communities, and yes—actual ad spend and PR investment to get people talking about your brand.

Killer Quotes

"I think the most effective SEOs could probably just leave work and go work at the UN. Your job requires you to be part translator, part diplomat."

"You could be the smartest, most innovative SEO, but if you can't get any of it implemented, none of it means anything."

"Google is ceasing to rank these pages, ceasing to index them in some cases we've seen, Google just doesn't want your junk traffic anymore."

"Now is the time for SEOs who are systems thinkers to really shine. If you are a systems thinker, you're acknowledging other channels, but you're also acknowledging technological states, you're acknowledging how NLPs work."

"We gotta stop being so self-reliant and think more outside the box and give other channels their credit. Because that's where you're gonna see the amplitude."

"I have been saying for years, the teams that report to me are, I know, so sick of hearing me say this. The best advice to clients is be a brand."

"There's always value in visibility. Coca-Cola wouldn't spend the insane amount of money it costs to paint those trucks if there wasn't value in visibility."

Episode Highlights

The Many Faces of SEO: Different Contexts, Different Challenges

Josh breaks down his experiences across freelance, in-house, agency, and consultancy work, explaining why consultancy offers the cleanest separation between strategy and implementation, while in-house roles often require the broadest technical skillset.

Communication: The Underappreciated SEO Skill

Young SEOs often struggle with tailoring communication to different audiences. Developers need precise technical specifications, executives need business outcomes, and designers need creative direction—all from the same SEO initiative.

Local SEO: Finding the Right Level of Specificity

Hyper-local content works—when done right. Josh explains when to target neighborhoods versus cities, using search volume and user intent as guides. The key is being hyper-local in ways that actually help users find your business, not just stuffing location keywords.

What Belongs in the SEO Dustbin: The Death of Volume Strategy

After 10-15 years of "just create content," Google is rejecting low-quality blog posts that don't serve user intent. Publishers felt this shift years ago; everyone else is feeling it now. The winning approach focuses on middle and bottom-funnel content that directly supports conversions.

Middle-Funnel Content: The Missing Piece

Most websites lack crucial comparison content—brand vs. brand, product vs. product, use case scenarios. With LLMs creating these comparisons anyway, brands need to fearlessly address how they stack up against competitors, especially on price and value propositions.

LLMs and the Human Sandwich

Modern SEO exists in a world where both SEOs and customers use LLMs. Content must be optimized for machine consumption while serving actual human needs—requiring deeper understanding of unique selling propositions, market positioning, and business funnels beyond simple keyword research.

Systems Thinking: The Future Belongs to Multi-Channel SEOs

The best SEOs understand how search engines, LLMs, social platforms, and email systems interconnect. They research competitors across all channels, sign up for email lists, track social presence, and think about ripple effects across platforms.

Google Discover: The Black Box Opportunity

While Discover traffic can't be counted on reliably, meeting the minimum criteria and sending clear entity signals can drive significant visibility. Hard news dominates the feed, but there's opportunity for brands that understand their audience's digital footprints.

Entity Building: Beyond On-Page Optimization

Establishing an entity requires consistent NAP data across directories, backlinks from industry publications, presence in relevant social communities, and people actually talking about your brand—which means investing in ads, PR, and community engagement.

Be a Brand: The Coca-Cola Philosophy

Coca-Cola doesn't move products in unbranded trucks because visibility has value. Being omnipresent in your customer's life—even without direct attribution—builds the brand recognition that minimizes friction when customers are ready to buy.

Resources Mentioned

• Amsive - Josh's agency with specialized local SEO, technical SEO, and other specialty teams
• Bambi Frazier - Leading Amsive's local SEO team, excellent speaker on hyper-local content
• Lily Ray - Josh's colleague at Amsive, frequent conference speaker (recently at MozCon)
• Dan Petrovic - Follow for deep technical SEO insights on algorithms, machine learning, and NLP
• Jason Barnard (Kalicube) - Entity optimization expert with resources on finding your machine ID
• Mark Williams-Cook - SEO expert who publishes the Core Updates newsletter with Google Discover insights

About Amsive

Amsive's SEO team is organized into specialty groups including local SEO, technical SEO, and other focused practices. The agency emphasizes systems thinking, multi-channel research, and institutional knowledge sharing across their 40-person SEO team.

Catch Lily Ray speaking: Check Moz for her MozCon presentation on SEO, GEO, AEO, and the evolving search landscape.

Looking to transform your podcast content into comprehensive SEO assets? Connect with Jeremy Rivera at Unscripted SEO.

In this episode, Keith Breseé interviews David Bell, CEO of USA Mobile Drug Testing, who shares his extensive experience in SEO and digital marketing, particularly in the drug testing industry. David discusses the journey of rebuilding his website after being penalized by Google, the strategies that led to significant traffic growth, and the importance of engaging franchisees in content creation. He emphasizes the need for relevant and fresh content, the role of AI in SEO, and the significance of link building. The conversation concludes with insights on trust in business relationships and the importance of understanding customer motivations.

Takeaways

• SEO can lead to significant bottom-line growth.
• Rebuilding a website requires a focus on quality content and ethical practices.
• Engaging franchisees in content creation can amplify traffic.
• Fresh and relevant content is crucial for SEO success.
• Understanding customer motivations is key to effective marketing.
• Link building remains an important aspect of SEO strategy.
• AI can assist in content creation but should not replace human touch.
• A multi-site strategy can enhance local SEO efforts.
• Trustworthy partnerships are essential in business.
• SEO is about solving problems for customers.

The conversation tackles the evolving landscape of search, from Google's helpful content update to the rise of generative engine optimization (GEO). Adrian shares candid insights about the challenges of selling SEO during a period of industry uncertainty, how reframing services around AI unlocked new client conversations, and why the convergence of SEO, digital PR, and Reddit marketing is creating powerful feedback loops for brands.

Key themes include the timeless nature of authentic storytelling (drawing on Simon Sinek's "Start With Why"), the shift from top-of-funnel content to bottom-of-funnel solutions, and Adrian's compelling analogy of AI as "a consultant working for your customer" rather than just another marketing channel. The discussion also explores the darker implications of writing for robots to write for humans, the dilution of authority online, and the challenges of vetting information in an age of AI-generated content.

Key Takeaways

On Fresh Perspectives in SEO

Adrian: "Trust me because I am relatively new to it and so what's normal to me is what's current and I'm not stuck doing it a version from 10 years ago."

Jeremy: "Dinosaurs like me have a lot of baggage. It's interesting because for me, the more that it changes, the more it stays the same."

Adrian: "I think I agree that the principles stay the same, but tactics kind of change."

On the Art and Science of SEO

Adrian: "I am a marketer with a data science background. I got a master's degree in applied data science, but I also really love like flushing out key messaging and like developing a voice and a brand... I love words and numbers and SEO is all about using data to help guide creative content projects."

Jeremy: "I have always seen SEO as part science, part art. There is definitely a heavy data sciences aspect to it... but also, you know, the artistic capability to understand the flaws in the data and understand the incredible multi-layer, multi-tiered black box that we're playing with for organic results."

On Authentic Marketing and Storytelling

Adrian: "I'll start with Simon Sinek. So his TED Talk, Start With Why, was one of the very first things that started to form how I thought about marketing... people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it."

Adrian: "The most effective persuasion, the most effective communication happens when your message is in clear alignment with your personal values... people believe what you're saying because it's in alignment with who you are."

On the paradox of authenticity in marketing: Adrian: "I mean I guess the proof is in the pudding. It's like if it works, probably, it probably was... It's one thing to give people like a sugary snack kind of a message that like, you know, is appealing in the short term... and that's different than the kind of message... that continues to resonate for like years or decades at a time. That's going to be good evidence that it probably is authentic if it just keeps working."

On Google's Helpful Content Update

Jeremy: "Google was being inundated about three or four years ago... there was more and more sites that were programmatic in nature and more and more sites that were ranking that had a bunch of content... And what really shifted is they launched their own LLM-based portion of the search... if your site has a bunch of unhelpful content, then you actually get a negative penalty for the whole site. And if you have a ton of it, it will drag it down a lot. And so it was the return of a site-wide penalty."

Jeremy: "The majority of those that tanked have really never actually been able to recover. I think it's maybe one in a hundred have really come back and many of those are even just partial. Many companies went down entirely. Many travel bloggers are no longer able to do their thing."

On Google's Use of Click Behavior

Jeremy: "For the longest time Google had lied and said, hey, click behavior doesn't affect rankings. And it's not a direct ranking factor. And that word direct, one of my previous interviewees, Jason Barnard said, that word direct in that sentence always gets you because... they say something that's true, but say it in a way that leads you to believe something that's false."

Adrian: "Like the facts are true, but the narrative is false."

Jeremy: "In reality, the court documents that came out because Google got sued and the antitrust, they had it. You know, it's not just in the algorithm, it's one of the three major components of ranking. It's content, it's links, and it's behavior of how people interact with your brand as they do these searches."

Adrian: "Which I think is good. What better evidence would they have that content is actually helpful and useful to people than looking at the behavior on the site. That seems like a very positive thing."

On Google's Market Power

Adrian: "Google doesn't even have to be the best search engine. Google hasn't actually needed to be the best search engine for a long time. Just because they're Google, because of their market share, they have too much power. They're the aggregator of information on the internet. And consumer behavior just changes very slowly. Google is synonymous with search still."

On Selling SEO in the AI Era

Adrian: "I've been focused on SEO entirely in the AI era. And it has been hard to sell SEO during this period because of uncertainty, not because the fundamentals had changed. Maybe the fundamentals are starting to change now three years later. But certainly for the first two years, fundamentals did not change at all. But there was just fear and uncertainty. And that made decision makers just want to invest in channels they had more faith in."

Adrian: "As soon as I kind of made a shift in how I was presenting things and focusing more on AI in about July, so three months ago... I just got a lot more meetings. Like from my existing audience, people wanted to follow up, former clients, people I've been in touch with a long time who'd never bought from us... I think ultimately the greatest reason for that was just that gave them more trust in me that I was able to talk relatively fluently about AI and even if what we ended up working on was mostly traditional SEO website content stuff."

On the Convergence of Digital PR and SEO

Jeremy: "The adoption of what should have been fantastic bedfellows all along of digital PR and SEO... I'd say that there is a pretty hard break between SEOs and digital PR folk... everybody else is focused on, hey, can I get another guest blog placement?... hardcore focus on if it doesn't have a DR, then it doesn't have any value."

Adrian: "Yeah, I think that's right and they are kind of being forced together now and that's probably a good thing."

On Shifting Content Strategy

Adrian: "Two things come to mind. One is shifting the kinds of content that we focus on just away from the top of the funnel... Another is just changing how we think about discovery online. And I use an analogy that AI is like a consultant working for your customer, and you're trying to influence how that consultant thinks, which means that everything on the web is kind of relevant."

Adrian: "The old blog tactics where you'd, like, throw up an article defining an industry term, which Ryan Law at Ahrefs calls rehashed Wikipedia content, that was always kind of an awkward phenomenon... it's a much better user experience for AI to just answer the question when someone's just asking for the definition of a term."

Adrian: "So, you know, it's much less helpful to have that top funnel, higher volume keywords, 'what is blah blah blah jargon' that kind of blogging and so much more focus on the bottom of the funnel stuff like all the searches related to people looking for a solution."

On niche technical content: Adrian: "Where an LLM is trained on the internet, it's going to do a good job of synthesizing commonly available information. But for people who are looking for a really niche subject, where there isn't a lot of good content on the web, there's still an opportunity to kind of own that niche, own that long tail, particularly if it's like highly technical."

On the AI Consultant Analogy

Jeremy (referencing Michael McDougall of Right Thing Agency): "ChatGPT is your least trained customer service representative. So it's detached from you and you kind of have to use a fax machine approach to get new information into it."

Adrian: "I think about it differently... the analogy of a consultant works better for me. It really is working for the customer... they have their own ChatGPT. That's constantly updating more personalized context for them and giving them personalized answers and is really a tool for them as an assistant for all of these decision makers out there."

Adrian: "It's now our job to help an AI that's using the internet to educate itself to think about things our way. So we've got to figure out where this consultant, this AI consultant is formulating its worldview and show up in those places around the web. So if it thinks our way, then it's more likely to recommend our solution."

On Writing for Robots

Jeremy (referencing Matt Brooks of SEOteric): "For a long time, Google has said, don't write for search engines. Don't write for robots, write for humans. But Matt Brooks of SEOteric just pointed out the other day, you are now writing for robots and in many cases you're using robots to write for robots to write for humans. So it's like this robot sandwich."

Adrian: "Yeah, yeah, it's a little dark. Well, I think one potential vision of the future is that websites are gonna really go down in importance and influence, and just the amount of time that humans spend looking at websites is gonna go way down."

On New Products and Disruptive Technology

Jeremy: "I'm wondering if that's a good thing or a bad thing for startups or entrepreneurs like Nexen PowerTrack. They're trying to disrupt systems with new products that don't exist... Do you think LLMs are more flexible when it comes to discovering new disruptive technology or is it more challenging because you can't control the inputs as well?"

Adrian: "I've seen quick wins in GEO, particularly in less competitive spaces where you throw up a good article and or like a media and maybe supported with a media interview on a good authoritative site or something and then you just like dominate a niche ChatGPT query."

Adrian: "I think my answer is probably temporal, where it's easier now, probably with AI, and as the whole industry, as basically marketing teams mature and adapt, it's going to get super optimized. And in a few years, in a couple years, it's going to be a lot harder to when the same way that investment grew over time in SEO and it professionalized and became very competitive. I think that will happen, but there maybe will still be a little bit more randomness with AI and unpredictability."

On the Authority Crisis and Single Data Points

Adrian: "I have been hearing the claim that ChatGPT, the ChatGPT referral traffic to your website from ChatGPT was much more engaged and higher value, higher converting than other sources, particularly Google... I googled that question... And there was one case study... And it was a case study with one data point... that's not a good data set. We don't want to be forming our sense of reality based on a sample of one. But Google ascribed so much authority to this one study."

Jeremy: "One person said it about one thing and what would have been just treated as an anecdote because it gets cited in the LLM results in the AI overview. It's somehow now part of the accepted knowledge graph and it would be very hard for anybody to challenge that going forward because now it will be counterfactual."

Jeremy: "It seems like we're becoming more prone to that as a culture of falling prey to a single data point."

Adrian: "Yeah, I mean maybe this gets into bigger picture challenges like just the amount of information we have access to and that none of us can handle vetting all those sources and figuring out what's credible."

Jeremy: "It used to be very simple in 2005 to tell the difference between, you know, a crackpot site on GeoCities is not a good reference point versus, you know, MIT or Harvard. But now we have diluted authority so much we have, you know, multiple inputs needed to get any particular data point out there, but also it's way easier to fake than ever."

On Hope for the Future

Adrian: "I'm excited about AI. I mean it's an opportunity for the flexible, the adaptable, to figure out what it means for them, figure out what it means for your world, and learn and adapt."

Adrian: "I'm excited to have the marketing, have GEO as like a subfield, mature, and develop some clearer playbooks. I still feel like it's so experimental... But I'm excited to see more studies come out and to see more hands-on, see more of these virtuous mutually supporting programs of your traditional SEO and your Reddit engagement and your digital PR, of seeing those things come together into like coherent programs and see some of the positive feedback loops that you create among those tactics."

About Adrian Dahlin

Adrian Dahlin is the founder of Search to Sale, a B2B full-service SEO and GEO agency. The company specializes in data-driven strategy with proprietary software that helps plan and monitor content. Search to Sale offers comprehensive services including traditional SEO, answer engine optimization, Reddit management, and digital PR.

Adrian co-hosts The Shift to Freedom podcast, which focuses on mindset, strategy, and personal growth for small business owners.

Connect with Adrian:

• Website: searchtosale.io
• LinkedIn: Adrian Dahlin
• Podcast: The Shift to Freedom

About Jeremy Rivera

Jeremy Rivera is the founder of SEO Arcade and host of the Unscripted SEO podcast. With extensive experience in the SEO industry, Jeremy brings a seasoned perspective on how search has evolved over the years.

Connect with Jeremy:

• Website: jeremyriveraseo.com
• LinkedIn: Jeremy Rivera
• Company: SEO Arcade

Resources Mentioned

• Simon Sinek's "Start With Why" TED Talk
• Jason Barnard of Kalicube - Entity Optimization Interview
• SEO Arcade Blog
• SEOteric (Matt Brooks)
• Right Thing Agency (Michael McDougall)
• Nexen PowerTrack

Topics Covered

• Data science and creative marketing in SEO
• Google's Helpful Content Update and site-wide penalties
• Click behavior as a ranking factor
• Selling SEO during the AI era
• Generative Engine Optimization (GEO)
• The convergence of SEO, digital PR, and Reddit marketing
• Bottom-of-funnel vs. top-of-funnel content strategy
• AI as a consultant for customers
• Writing for robots to write for humans
• Authority dilution in the age of AI
• Single data points and information vetting
• Hope and opportunities in AI-driven marketing

Episode Overview:

The golden age of Google-only SEO is over. In this revealing conversation, Jeremy Rivera sits down with Claude Zdanow (CEO) and Chris Becker (President) of Onar—a publicly traded marketing technology and agency network—to explore how businesses must fundamentally reimagine their digital marketing strategies.

From tracking brand visibility in LLM responses to measuring "share of wallet" in ChatGPT, this episode tackles the measurement crisis facing every CMO today. You'll discover why traffic is down but revenue is up for many brands, how to use AI agents to track your competitive position in AI search, and why meeting customers "knee to knee" in real life is more important than ever. These shifts are pushing even system-focused companies like Uniframe Systems to rethink how they measure visibility and performance across both AI and traditional channels.

If you're still optimizing for traffic and rankings, this episode will challenge everything you thought you knew about digital marketing success.

Key Topics Covered:

• Why the 2010-2020 "golden age" of SEO is definitively over
• The shocking reality of zero-click search and what it means for your business
• How to measure your brand's "share of voice" in LLM responses
• A tactical 3-agent framework for tracking competitive positioning in AI search
• Why "get niche, get rich" is the survival strategy for mid-market brands
• The power of combining IRL ("knee to knee") marketing with digital tracking
• How to reframe your entire data measurement strategy for 2025 and beyond

Guest Information:

Claude Zdanow - CEO, Onar

• Nearly two decades of experience scaling marketing and advertising enterprises
• Led Onar through four strategic acquisitions
• Previously worked with global brands like 7-Eleven, Disney, and Microsoft
• Building a publicly traded marketing technology platform focused on middle-market brands

Chris Becker - President, Onar

• Oversees all P&Ls across Onar's agency network
• Maintained a lower than 5% annual churn rate for five consecutive years
• Focuses on measurable value delivery and operational excellence
• Leading Onar's shift from traffic-based to behavior-based measurement

About Onar: Onar owns and operates technology-enabled marketing agencies including Juicy (performance marketing) and healthcare marketing through their network. Through Onar Labs, they've developed Cortex, a proprietary AI marketing intelligence platform. Recent acquisitions include Retina AI for predictive customer lifetime value analytics.

Host: Jeremy Rivera
Founder of SEO Arcade | Host of Unscripted SEO Podcast

Episode Transcript

Introduction and Credentials

Jeremy Rivera:
Hello, I'm Jeremy Rivera, your Unscripted SEO Podcast host. I'm here with two fine guests today, Claude Zdanow and Chris Becker. Let's do a tag team introduction for both of you, focusing on what you guys have done that builds trust that you are the expert in your field.

Claude Zdanow:
Wow. What a question to start this off with. Well, I'll go first. My name is Claude Zdanow. I'm the CEO of Onar. We are a publicly traded marketing technology and agency network. What that simply means is we own and operate technology-enabled marketing agencies that help middle market and growth stage brands advertise digitally on the internet across performance media, SEO, email, and a range of other services.

And I guess what have I done to have credibility in this space? I guess I've been in the industry for almost two decades. I've run now two different agency groups like this where we've done multiple acquisitions of marketing companies. Under Onar, as of date, we've now done four acquisitions since the inception of the business. And yeah, we have a team all over the world and are building a fun and interesting business. And I'll hand it over to our president, Mr. Chris Becker.

Chris Becker:
Hey guys, I'm the president of Onar, and on the president's side for my role and responsibilities, it really sits on the internal-facing side of the business. So I oversee and manage all P&Ls that we own, the technologies and the agencies.

One thing that my background lends itself to that I look at is we have a real focus on what value do we actually provide? What is the meaningful thing to companies? When companies come to us, any time a business engages with a piece of technology or an agency, especially an agency, they're looking to make more money than they were charged for, just point blank.

And if you look at the agencies that have been managing for the last five years with Onar and then previously with Claude at the holding company that he was with prior, our retention rate is incredible. We have a very low churn rate. So when I look and say, what are the things that we've done to build trust? I think there's no metric that points to that than having lower than a 5% churn rate annually for five consecutive years at a performance marketing agency.

With that, I'll say that we've worked with incredible clients. We have some really cool backgrounds and we've done some cool things, but that may be the actual metric that points to trust for me that means the most.

The Right Marketing Mix for Small Businesses

Jeremy Rivera:
That makes sense and this opens the field to quite a bit because not only are we talking about digital marketing agencies, but multiple digital marketing agencies. I would imagine that the mix or approach of those agencies would need to be somewhat different from each other.

So let's talk a little bit about cross-channel or multi-channel. What is the right mix for small businesses to consider in their marketing strategy online, as well as—and then the flip side of that is—for SEOs, how do we need to adjust what we've done to better integrate across those multiple disciplines or channels to function better and come out with better outcomes?

Claude Zdanow:
Well, let me speak to the first part of that question, and then I think I'll hand it over to Chris to talk a little bit more about the SEO side of things.

I think to be clear around operating multiple agencies and making acquisitions, we're primarily as of today focused on two verticals, right? The smallest one being healthcare, working with B2B, more of a B2B and some B2C marketing.

But the largest part of our business and where we've made all the acquisitions to date is actually not going horizontal, but actually going deeper into performance digital marketing, specifically for e-commerce brands and anyone looking to drive leads, sell products, sell services on the internet. Specifically in walled gardens. So think of Google, Meta, TikTok, retail media, et cetera.

And so when we talk about making acquisitions, we're typically not necessarily buying other agencies that compete with one another or they're going to offer other services. We're buying agencies to build out a more robust level of offering that we currently—or there isn't the same thing we are currently doing—and in some cases add some additional services. But those services are complementary to what we're already doing, right? So it's putting one and one together to equal three or four, right? The idea of...

We're buying—we have an existing platform, an agency for example that was previously called Storia. We bought an agency called Juice and then we put the two of them together and they're now called Juice. It is our overarching performance marketing brand, right? And we did that because we want that one platform, one center of excellence that can speak to the clients that know us and want to be part of that. And there's pluses from both businesses.

And so each time we look at an acquisition or buying another business, it's really around two things. One, how does it make us better at what we do, right? Maybe it's more data, more industries we've worked in as it relates to e-commerce, for example, and sometimes that could be additional services. And so that's really the focus when we talk about multiple agencies.

So think of us as a holding company where we have two existing services or agency verticals that we're buying businesses into. That's not to say that we won't grow out of that in the future and maybe have more verticals, but that's our two core verticals.

And I'll leave one caveat to that, which is that we do also have on the side a bit of a venture studio or technology incubator called Onar Labs, where we have made some acquisitions around pieces of technology, marketing technology specifically, that we think all our agencies can benefit from. And so we've done some acquisitions there to say, hey, is this cool or interesting technology that we can use so that our agencies can be better at what they're doing because we now have that within our wheelhouse?

And then Chris, I'll pass it off to you to talk about the SEO side of things.

SEO Disruption and the Rise of LLMs

Chris Becker:
Yeah, thanks. So just to close, I'll put a bullet on what Claude was saying. When we make acquisitions from one business to another, the platform Onar is that through line. And so they're actually not too dissimilar in concepts outside of what they seek to achieve for clients.

Now on the performance side, specifically on the SEO side, cross-channel, we're seeing major disruption, frankly. And what I call major disruption is more about rate of change, not necessarily yet that change in high volume has been disrupted, but the rate of change is clearly headed towards LLM usage.

There are ways, or at least hacky ways, of tracking how much attention your brand is getting with a particular LLM. And I'm happy to talk about how to do that. And the fruit of doing that kind of allows you to see what channels you really need to be giving attention to, where maybe your weaknesses are.

But certainly, you can't deny that Reddit is playing a big role in this. Granted, it's been downgraded here in the recent period of time. Reddit stock dropped because a report or print came out suggesting that Reddit's usage and prompt outputs have been decreasing over time. That was at least what I read or at least understood what I read to be.

And so, I'll say that regardless of what that print said, I still don't believe that you can shy away from Reddit or tools similar in that same vein—Quora, whatnot—and your personal blog on your website or your personal website, the product description pages. These are areas where that contextualization you're going to try to align with what you have off-site with what you do have on-site and try to uniquely...

Historically, we had this concept of a pillar cluster strategy that was from your website built out and you get into these peak key terms that you're trying to rank for. I think now you really have to look at the internet as a web of data which feeds into that more pillar cluster model.

And instead of just keyword optimization and just interlinking, you really have to think about contextualization now broadly and across all platforms. And that may involve seeding as a strategy. That may involve different types of affiliate engagements than we have seen in the past.

And that also may involve pandering to the big guys out there, the Walmarts and the 10,000-pound gorillas that are getting these early relationships with ChatGPT or Perplexity. Those early relationships are backdoors to those algorithms. And sometimes you just have to play the game there, though we like to see what treats the SMBs the best.

The End of the Google-Only Era

Jeremy Rivera:
I was speaking with my friend Michael McDougald of Right Thing Agency and we were kind of saying the golden age of SEO as Google-only was from 2010 to 2020. That's when, if you could figure out backlinks and get your content strategy, you don't have to worry about Microsoft anymore. Yahoo was gone. And the only game in town was Google, but that time is over. It's so gone.

And not just because of GPT, but if you look at moves within Amazon, Amazon has its own search sub-ecosystem. If you are thinking about commoditization, like getting your product out there, it's as much as getting into these new different sub-ecosystems—and not just Google Merchant Center, but you've got to have as strong an Amazon optimization game or Amazon mitigation game to compete against it. Either choose to play or play against it.

What's your advice for SMBs that are running in e-commerce considering what is a good way to consider your marketing mix now that Google is still a key player, is still super important, but now I think considering the secondary or knock-on impacts of what you do in Google have other places where they can have more benefit. So it's like, I don't want to say that Google is devalued because what you can do or what should have been the best SEO process in the beginning of making killer content and distributing, getting it in more places, has more value. But how do you structure your marketing team to handle that? How do you address that problem for small businesses?

Reframing Data Measurement for the New Era

Chris Becker:
This is a topic—I'm thankful that you asked the question. This is a topic I think that is in every boardroom, in every small business leadership circle, in every CMO's mind right now. There's no ignoring the elephant in the room that things are changing like you said. It's no more. And Google is no longer your only pillar that you have on the search side.

The answer to your question, I think, starts with a concept, and then it lends to tactics. I think the concept is on the data side. You have simply got to look at your data differently now. There's so many zero-click movements. There's so many—we used to look at clicks to website and think, well, this was an informational click and this was a commercial click and so on. And now you only get commercial clicks, point blank. They're coming to your website with high buyer intent.

We're seeing a lot of people who are seeing their SEO down, but the revenue is slightly up from organic. And so you're seeing these dynamic shifts, and to anyone who's an SEO expert, this is not news, but to any of the people who are looking at marketing media mix, it is something from a conceptual perspective that you really have to consider.

And so I say that you need to really lend your data stack to measuring behavior of your audience and getting very intimate with the cohorts or your avatars, whatever marketing speak we need to use there, to know exactly who it is that you're marketing to.

Because earlier we were talking about the contextualization of all of your content—it needs to speak very specifically to someone. We're not just marketing to athletes, we're marketing to amateur runners who enjoy 5Ks and may take on a marathon every year. As an example, we've really got to get down to the nitty-gritty of who we are marketing this key product to or this set of product category to, and make sure that we're building an entire measurement framework for their behavior, because we're going to see them engaging on platforms, we're going to see them engaging on website, and we're going to see them converting and then re-converting down the funnel.

And I think that historically, we used to look at all of these clicks to the website and give credence to that. And now we need to look at how much—what's my share of wallet on the LLM space?

Within ChatGPT, relative to my competitors, what percentage of queries do I populate within the answer for relative to my competitors? And how often does this LLM recommend my product or my service over my competitors?

So conceptually, I think it really does start with a reframing of how we look at the data and then we can start taking action on that data.

Moving Content Down the Funnel

Jeremy Rivera:
I definitely agree. I mean, it's on a granular level down to the industry. I was talking with my friend Timothy Jackson of Mercy's Sake about his precast walls client and we were looking at—they've got these wall constructions and I wanted to point out to them that we needed to get down to the comparative level of that type of wall versus another type of wall that they don't do. And to also provide the answers of that head-to-head question of like, how am I differentiated from this other product?

Because if you don't do it, if you don't do it on your site and you don't distribute that elsewhere, then when these LLMs are building that knowledge graph about that product, you're not going to be included.

So I see it though as different from the massive content shotgun, top-level content, mass production system we had in the 2010s to 2020 of like, let's write everything. Let's have an article about how to fix leaks. Let's have an article about how to fix faucets, and it was all top-of-funnel stuff. Now we have LLMs that can mostly do that. But I think the answer is that we need to move down the funnel. Would you agree, Claude, that it's about moving our content marketing strategy further down the funnel in terms of the content spread we're making?

Claude Zdanow:
Yeah, look, I absolutely agree. I think it's about relevancy, right? Based on the query, based on showing up in a place that matters, right? I think there used to be a lot of things that you would do just to get eyeballs, right? And then hoping those eyeballs would convert, right?

And just being—hey, I want to be a—I don't know, I run a plumbing company and I want to be a thought leader in plumbing and post articles about thought leadership of plumbing because you want to rank for certain things—using an extreme example, right? But then to hopefully convert, right? That end user.

Whereas now it's not necessarily the best solution, right? It's like I want the best—I don't know—shoes for running at 100-degree temperatures in Arizona. It's like how do you solve for that query, right? How do you have content that speaks to that around your product and ties that all the way back?

So yeah, I think you're totally spot-on. We're just in this hyper-catered world now where the expectation, I think by nature of these LLMs, is instant gratification, instant result that speaks to exactly what your question is, right? And so how do you link those two together? It's very different than where we once were.

The Authenticity Challenge: Reddit and Beyond

Jeremy Rivera:
Chris, how do you address the uncanny valley of that push and pull—and this happens a lot on Reddit, but in particular—you want to market to people on Reddit, but if you try too hard or try in the wrong way, they will eat you alive and downvote your content and upload actively memes to mock and/or destroy. I know there's wreckage of dozens of companies that have tried super hard to show up on Reddit and crashed and burned.

What have been some of the—and it's not just Reddit—there is kind of an audience participation, a certain level of acceptance of the AstroTurf on different platforms. So I think Instagram and TikTok might accept more of an AstroTurf reality. But how do you deal with that side of it when you're proposing that people in their digital marketing mix start to look outside of just what they can publish comfortably on their own site, but start to look at secondary platforms to multiply their message with influencers or themselves directly with their brands?

Chris Becker:
Yeah, the question of how do you do authenticity at scale? That's a tough one. It's a tough one. There's no way of discussing it without getting into some gray areas, without getting into some trial and error. And then in those gray areas, you can really get egg on your face like you were talking about. People get taken down on these platforms if you show up as inauthentic, trying to lean too far on that authenticity at scale—you lean too far on the ladder and you focus too much on scale.

There, of course, you can reach out to curators and try to get curated content on behalf of your company and you can work with those curators in some manner. It honestly is challenging to do that. You can invite customers to leave reviews, your conversion rates will be low there. But I think what you really can—and what I'm going to do is maybe speak to strategies that people can use. I'm not necessarily speaking to strategies that we use just to be clear. But what you can do out there—and this is getting into a bit of a gray box—is if you have audience members who are creating authentic elements on Reddit or other platforms as well, not just Reddit. We mentioned Quora as another, but they're creating authentic answers or authentic reviews of your product.

You can do micro tasks and get those upvoted at a high frequency in a way that doesn't flag the system. You don't get crazy, but just give them some help, if you will, to create that. I know I'm only saying that because I know a lot of brands do that. And we've ran into it, but we've also seen people overdo it.

It's everything in a way that can appear to be true. If you have virtually no presence on Reddit and your first post gets massive upvotes, it probably seems pretty silly and people are going to look at it because we're human and we know exactly what is real and what isn't.

So you can get into some strategy there of jockeying the system, no different than any system out there that gets jockeyed. I know that happens a lot on the social media platforms—kind of micro tasks of people engaging quickly to a post in a positive manner. You provide in the micro task a large volume of curated responses that heck AI can now curate in mass volume. And you hand those out and people select one of 50 responses and they simply copy and paste it in the post response.

You see that happening on Reddit, you see that happening elsewhere. I don't know that I necessarily condone it, but I also don't know that I necessarily don't in the moment of you have a great, authentic piece of content out there, and now we're just trying to play an algorithmic game to get this syndicated at a greater value.

And so there is a piece of that that you're trying to jockey and you're trying not to. The most important piece is create a great product and a great service that people want to talk about and then invite them to talk about it.

So we get into these items and you want to use them cautiously. If you do choose to use them, you have to ask yourself if they're within your value set. And those are tools and mechanisms out there that people are pulling levers. But the most important thing is have a really valuable product and focus in on your value proposition against your pricing structure so that people have a real reason to go and talk.

Black Hat, White Hat, and the Ethics of SEO

Jeremy Rivera:
That makes sense. It kind of echoes back. I went to PubCon, which is an SEO convention in Las Vegas, mostly known for the drinking, thus the PubCon. And we go to this bar, I think it was like a German-themed bar, and I sit at the bar, and this SEO guy sits next to me, and he starts talking about his SEO strategies, and I start to realize that it's the equivalent of a Jedi sitting next to a Sith Dark Lord because he starts telling me about how Google is actually the bad guy. They're gatekeeping and actually as a Black Hat SEO, he's doing Google a favor by pushing the edges, by finding the exploits in the algorithm to bring it to their attention. And if they can't be bothered to fix the algorithm enough for their users then it's okay. That doesn't matter because it's just terms and conditions. They're not laws that you have to absolutely obey.

And if your clients are risk-averse, then buy some secondary domains, it's really okay. You're—as a Black Hat SEO, you're benefiting the SEO ecosystem by making millions of dollars pushing pills, porn, and casinos because Google's never going to improve its algorithm for everybody else unless we push those buttons and make them improve their systems.

So obviously that's a pretty... So I'm sitting there like, okay, well, yeah, that's okay. That's a very Palpatine argument to make about white hat, black hat.

Chris Becker:
Yeah, that gets far on the Machiavellian side of that scale.

Claude Zdanow:
[Laughs] I love the Jedi analogy.

Jeremy Rivera:
It's very on the Machiavellian side, but it does kind of echo across what you said of like, is it—if your job is to promote your client and get their products to be sold, then does it matter if you paid a bot to click an upvote button 50 times? Or five times or 500 times. So sometimes—

Chris Becker:
Yeah, I'll say this. Yeah.

Jeremy Rivera:
Maybe it's a question of scale of it versus—it is that question of authenticity when it comes to digital marketing and these choices. I personally handle it on a matrix of risk that I'm presenting to the client. And what's the potential downside of following through on that? In some cases where you're doing kind of gray hat-ish local SEO stuff, then that has high risk, high reward because your local profile gets burned, your company can't show up in those searches.

Chris Becker:
I also think you said a really important piece there of the bot side of things. Anti-bot, to be honest with you, across all strategy. So I think it's pretty important that if you are going to take a micro-task approach and you're going to try to do it in moderation, that you're using people who can get past proof of human because we're certainly headed in that direction if we're not already there.

I think if you truly use a bot to hit upvote 50 times, you're playing with fire. You really are. The digital footprint on the back end of those platforms that can then be attached to your brand can really light you up. It can really get into losing an account, like you said, which can really hang with you.

And so sure, you can create the subdomains. If you're going to play with that type of fire, your subdomains are even at risk in that category and maybe that doesn't hit your domain that hard, but sooner or later they're going to create an AI that branches those subdomains to your domain.

Jeremy Rivera:
I think it comes down to the business and ethics altogether too. I'm sure there are a range, a number of things that you can do ethically or unethically to market or get advantage in business.

Claude Zdanow:
Yeah, I mean, the one thing that came to mind too is like, look, at the end of the day, some of the things that a brand can do and cannot do besides how far to the dark side or the light side they're approaching is also a factor of the amount of money they have to spend, right? And how competitive the market set is, right?

And so it's like, that's the other aspect of it, which I think is important to remember. It's like, there are brands out there that essentially have endless amounts of money to do these things. And there are other ones that have to be scrappier and more creative in terms of how do they penetrate a market where you're facing an army of ad spend and people working on these other brands that you're competing with.

And so I think, I agree with you. It's—I liked your comment earlier about risk and then thinking about the ethics, but I think also part of it plays into it's like where are you investing your dollars for what result and what is okay with you and how you're going to do that to try to get the results you need, right? Because that plays into it as well.

Using AI Agents to Track LLM Performance

Jeremy Rivera:
Yeah, and it's also probably like a—one benefit you could say of Google not being the only playground is that there's literally—there are high verticals and niches and products and services where a new player coming onto the playground—they don't deserve to be on the first page. There are 10 really good strong competitors who have tons of market influence and they deserve to be on the first page. And you being the newbie, I'm sorry, but you don't. There are cases like that.

And so now that Google's not the only playground that leads to a more diversified choice, not to say don't have a website, not to say don't create content, but just consider how you leverage that or how you're approaching that. If you know you're not going to be necessarily the first page on Google for your head term, maybe it's find another play.

Chris Becker:
I must say that a strategy that we definitely deploy for our clients to get into where do you put your time and attention because you've got a lot of—with Google not being the only player in the game, you've got a lot to go for here. So I'll say this. The piece of this that we do that I think is really important for companies—it's not an agency, we do it, yeah, sure, but you can do it on your own—is simply create an agent that comes up and that you work really hard to give it all the information about a specific persona that you have and let them—let that agent rather—think of every query that would come out of that audience member to your specific LLM.

And in theory, if you give it enough time and enough duration, 10,000, 50,000 queries to come out, it should be able to over time create the largest list of queries. And then you match that with your query list historically on Google, and you can really get into an AI model creating all of the queries that you need.

Give another agent the task of prompting each LLM with those queries, and then give another agent a task of reviewing those answers and determining where they're referencing the answers they give. LLMs always reference where they get those answers. And you can take a look at what type of questions you're not ranking for. You can take a look at what reference points are pulling your competitors and not you.

Those are basic tactics. Now they're not so basic, but they're basic enough that marketers can really deploy and get a grip on what percentage of followership, if you will, or what percentage of LLM usage your brand is getting—share of wallet on that LLM. And it can really give you tactical items of where do you go, what type of content do you create, and on which platforms do you need that energy to come from so that you can get those references over your competitors, or at least you can get in there and duke it out with them.

Like you said, if you're not necessarily that top brand, focus in on one very specific area and maybe become that known for that one cohorted column or cluster, if you will, of queries.

The Power of IRL Marketing and "Knee to Knee" Engagement

Jeremy Rivera:
An area I'm curious if you've tapped into. I was talking to Matt Brooks of SEOteric about the weakness of many digital marketing strategies who ignore the real world and ignore the value of sponsoring a truck to come out and play a movie at a local park and having a sign for your company and having a bumper on the beginning of the trailer and exposing your brand that way, or supporting a fun run, or doing a trash park cleanup.

There are dozens of IRL things that you can do that they've got word of mouth. And if you're smart about it, they have digital word of mouth, because you got event aggregator sites up the wazoo. You have a literal SERP type that literally is looking for events that people will be exposed to your brand putting on the fall play, putting on that park cleanup, or the shoe drive. Have you had any playgrounds where you've been able to play with mixed media in terms of doing things in real life to impact digital marketing strategy?

Chris Becker:
Jeremy, you hit the nail on the head. This is—I think earlier we talked about tracking that behavior of your audience and then deploying marketing tactics against them. It's not just SEO. It is everywhere they are. Get niche, get rich. You've got to know those niche audiences that you have and go show up where they are.

I'm giving a talk on this in Paso Robles at the Wine Alliance there later this year. And it's going to be about meet people knee to knee—your brand needs to be meeting people knee to knee. And if you are doing that in great experiential ways, outstanding. You mentioned a couple of really great examples, but you really got to have a digital component to it. You really need to make sure that those digital components are leading back into a very clear and organized funnel, if you will—for a beat-up turn over time now—but a very clear funnel where people can go get a grip on who and what your product is and who it's for.

And they can get a grip on that contextualization funnel because I assure you that if they go into GPT, they may reference that location. And if you have a custom homepage—I'm sorry, custom squeeze page or landing page built specific to that location—right? We're creating connectivity across all of these platforms. We're creating real unique juice, if you will, to point back to the brand.

But we really are. And getting in and meeting knee to knee at that brand level with a digital connectivity piece, that hook—and that speaks very specifically to that audience that we talked about earlier. That is truly the area where I think we're going to see marketing head toward.

Frankly, the metrics have to follow that. Your data, understanding the data, it's really going to have to follow this new attempt to get knee to knee with clients.

Closing

Jeremy Rivera:
I love that. That sums it up perfectly. Thanks so much for your time and the fantastic conversation. I'll make sure that anything that we've mentioned shows up in the site links. I'll make sure even your event listing for where you'll be speaking. Share that in the show notes too. Thanks for coming on.

Chris Becker:
Thanks for having me.

Key Takeaways

1. The Measurement Paradigm Has Shifted

• Traffic down, revenue up is the new normal
• Zero-click search means only high-intent visitors reach your site
• Traditional metrics are actively misleading decision-makers

2. LLM Share of Voice is the New Critical Metric

• Track what percentage of LLM responses mention your brand vs. competitors
• Use a 3-agent system: query generator, LLM interrogator, citation analyzer
• Measure presence across ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity, and other LLMs

3. Content Must Be Hyper-Specific

• Move from broad top-of-funnel to specific solution-focused content
• Target micro-niches with extreme buyer intent
• Think "shoes for 100-degree Arizona running" not "running shoes"

4. The Internet is Now a Web of Data

• Pillar cluster strategies must extend beyond your website
• Contextualization matters more than keyword density
• Presence on Reddit, Quora, and platforms is essential for LLM citations

5. Behavioral Measurement Trumps Traffic Metrics

• Build frameworks that track user behavior across platforms
• Get intimate with specific audience cohorts
• Measure the entire journey from platform engagement to conversion

6. "Get Niche, Get Rich"

• Mid-market brands can't outspend category leaders
• Focus on dominating one specific query cluster
• Become THE authority in a narrow vertical

7. Digital + Physical Integration is Critical

• Meet people "knee to knee" with IRL experiences
• Create location-specific landing pages tied to events
• Build attribution models that connect offline to online

8. Product Value is Non-Negotiable

• No amount of sophisticated marketing saves mediocre products
• Focus on value proposition vs. pricing structure
• Authentic quality gets amplified organically in the distributed web

Connect with Our Guests

Claude Zdanow

• Company: Onar
• LinkedIn: Connect with Claude

Chris Becker

• Company: Onar
• LinkedIn: Connect with Chris

Learn More About Onar:

• Website: www.onar.com
• Agencies: Onar's Agency Network
• Technology: Onar Labs
• About: Company Overview

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

Related Articles:

• Onar Announces Onar Labs and Cortex Platform
• Onar Acquires Retina AI for Predictive Analytics
• Onar Signs Definitive Agreement to Acquire JUICE

Other Guests Mentioned:

• Michael McDougald - Right Thing Agency
• Matt Brooks - SEOteric
• Timothy Jackson - Mercy's Sake

Case Studies Referenced:

• Permacast Walls - Precast wall construction

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About the Host

Jeremy Rivera is the founder of SEO Arcade and host of the Unscripted SEO Podcast. With over 17 years in the SEO industry, Jeremy has worked with enterprise brands, hundreds of small businesses, and created his own SEO SaaS platform. He's a published SEO author and focuses on practical, no-BS insights from real practitioners.

Connect with Jeremy:

• Website: JeremyRiveraSEO.com
• SEO Arcade: SEOArcade.com
• Podcast: UnscriptedSEO.com

Sponsor Information

This episode is brought to you by SEO Arcade - simplified keyword research and SEO traffic prediction for businesses that don't need enterprise-level complexity.

Timestamps

00:00 - Introduction and Guest Credentials
08:45 - Onar's Acquisition Strategy and Agency Network
15:30 - The Disruption in Search: LLMs and Reddit's Role
23:15 - The End of the Google-Only Era
28:40 - Reframing Data Measurement: Zero-Click Reality
35:20 - Moving Content Down the Funnel
42:10 - The Authenticity Challenge on Reddit
51:30 - Black Hat vs. White Hat SEO Ethics
58:45 - Using AI Agents to Track LLM Performance
1:07:20 - IRL Marketing: The "Knee to Knee" Principle
1:14:30 - Closing Thoughts and Wrap-Up

• Branding is becoming increasingly important in SEO.
• SEOs need to engage with broader marketing strategies.
• Real-world interactions enhance online presence.
• Understanding brand identity is crucial for effective SEO.
• Communication strategies should align with SEO efforts.
• The digital landscape is becoming more competitive.
• SEOs must step outside their digital bubbles.
• Content should resonate with audience needs and desires.
• Brand activities can build momentum for online success.
• SEO is a means to an end, not the end itself.

Want to talk more about SEO? Continue the conversation on Bluesky, X or check out old episodes of Unscripted SEO by SEO Arcade

About Our Guest

Erica D'Arcangelo is the CEO of Love Content Development, a full-service marketing agency with 14 years in business. She also owns Create One (video production company) and V12 Strategies (marketing technology company). Over her career, Erica has worked with approximately 800 companies and generated nearly $300 million across all marketing contracts. She's also an Amazon bestselling author of "A Story About Pizza," chronicling her grandfather's journey as an Italian immigrant opening a pizzeria in 1960.

Key Topics Discussed

From Employee to Entrepreneur

• Started in healthcare marketing in 2001, learning everything from HTML coding to early social media
• Launched her own agency in 2013 as a single mom seeking flexibility
• Evolved from freelancer to "real agency" in 2017-2018 with organizational structure, office space, and full team

Scaling an Agency

• Creating organizational charts and hiring strategies
• Client retention and process development
• The transition from "doing marketing" to "running a business"

The Hybrid Work Model

• Evolution from office-only to remote during COVID to current hybrid approach
• Managing employees across locations (UK and Tampa, Florida)
• Balancing flexibility with the needs of different roles and positions

The Death and Rebirth of SEO

• Why "SEO is dead" has been declared repeatedly since 2001 (and why it's not)
• Bringing back the "Webmaster" mentality for interconnected digital marketing
• The shift from keyword-focused SEO to multi-channel audience acquisition

Foundational SEO in a Multi-Channel World

• Building foundational assets: website, Google listing, social media
• Layering promotional activities and influencer marketing on top
• Creating ranking assets that support discoverability
• On-page SEO services integrated with video, social, and other channels

The Power of Data and Unexpected Wins

• The importance of testing and measuring results
• Case study: 64 million views on an ASMR pizza-cutting video for family pizzeria
• Local community building through geographic audience targeting
• Following local businesses' followers to build community connections

Content Creation Across Platforms

• Managing 10 Instagram accounts and multiple TikTok accounts
• YouTube Studio as daily analytics hub
• Balancing phone-based content creation with computer-based production

The Reality Check for Small Business Owners

• The overwhelming checklist of modern digital marketing
• Why businesses need marketing experts or the budget to hire them
• The "misestimation of effort" problem - clients underestimating what success requires
• Comparing marketing to diet/fitness: realistic expectations vs. actual effort needed

AI as Tool, Not Replacement

• ChatGPT driving $30,000 in tracked e-commerce sales (via Grady Teske)
• AI as "most popular but least accurate employee"
• The responsibility of using AI tools correctly
• The need for human oversight and fact-checking

The Icarus Effect of AI Content

• AI content initially ranking well, then trailing off
• Case studies of 30,000 AI-generated articles crashing in rankings
• The importance of moderation and responsible AI use
• Human-written content showing more stable, long-term performance

Human Certification and the Future

• The concept of "human certified content" as the new organic label
• Why humans will become more valuable as AI content becomes repetitive
• The internet potentially "purging itself" of low-quality AI content
• Erica as an author refusing to use AI for creative work

Creating Purposeful Websites

• Users should understand what you do within 3-5 seconds
• Websites as more than "fishing hooks" - becoming valuable resources
• Using People Also Ask and SEMrush PAA data for knowledge bases
• Implementing simple navigation that answers real questions

Understanding Your Audience

• The power of survey data and content strategy
• "The best way to know what people want is just to ask them"
• Conducting true client interviews to inform content
• Using Google Trends and YouTube trends for topic research

Tools & Resources Mentioned

• Magic Rinku - Internal linking tool for WordPress
• SEMrush - Keyword research and People Also Ask data
• YouTube Studio - Analytics and content management
• Riverside - Podcast recording platform
• Answer The Public - Question research tool
• Google Trends - Search trend analysis

Memorable Quotes

"SEO is not dead. There's just a lot more elements to it than there ever was. It takes a lot more. You have all these different pieces of this puzzle and they all work together."

"I really lead with, how can this content benefit the reader and how can we be creative with it? Not like how can we publish a million posts this month?"

"AI is a tool that makes really things faster and easier, and it's an amazing research tool, but there's certain things I think it has to be really used responsibly."

"The best way to know what people want is just to ask them."

Connect with Erica D'Arcangelo

For Marketing Services:

• Website: lovecontent development.com / webcontentdevelopment.com

For Pizza Stories & Books:

• Search: "Erica D'Arcangelo" or "A Story About Pizza" or "Pizza Story Podcast"
• Book: "A Story About Pizza" (Amazon Bestseller)

Related Episodes

• Lisa Raehsler on PPC, SEO & AI Integration
• Grady Teske on B2B Marketing

Hosted by Jeremy Rivera | SEO Arcade

Key Topics Covered

Building and Scaling an Agency

• Started in 2002 as traditional marketing company
• Evolved into digital agency with social media emergence
• Strategic decision to cap at 10 employees and raise prices instead of scaling
• Maintained 30% client maximum rule to avoid dependency risk
• Focused on home services (HVAC, plumbing, roofing) and restaurants

Business Philosophy

• "Hire for attitude, train for skill" - Southwest Airlines model
• Phones answered on first ring by anyone, including CEO
• Personal touch as competitive advantage
• Long-term client relationships (10+ years typical)

Strategic Insights

• Capacity management: Stay below capacity line, raise prices when at capacity
• Risk management: No single client over 30% of business
• Market positioning: Answer the questions your ideal clients have
• Content strategy: Focus on answers, not just keywords

Episode 2: Lorrie Thomas Ross - Marketing in the AI Era

Guest: Lorrie Thomas Ross, CEO of Web Marketing Therapy
Title: "The Marketing Therapist"
Experience: 19 years as Chief Enthusiasm Officer, former UC Santa Barbara & UC Berkeley instructor

Key Frameworks Discussed

The Five Factor Framework

1. Credibility - Know, like, and trust through design, copy, and photography
2. Usability - Seamless user experience across all touchpoints
3. Visibility - Strategic presence across search and social media, ads, email, and PR
4. Sellability - Clear differentiation and value proposition
5. Scalability - Treating marketing as investment, not expense

"MarkEDing" Philosophy

• Shift from promotional to educational marketing
• Ask: "Who's your ideal audience? What do you want to help them understand?"
• Education becomes your North Star for all marketing decisions

AI and Content Strategy Insights

AI as Virtual Sparring Partner

• Use AI for ideation and content development, not replacement
• AI adoption mirrors early social media resistance patterns
• AI-generated content can "poison" future AI models when trained on synthetic data

Information Gain Concept

• Focus on creating content that adds new value vs. recycling existing information
• Up to 50% of online content has crossed through an LLM
• Content strategy must educate both humans AND AI systems about your brand

Key Quotes:

• "LLMs and AI are your most popular and least trained customer service representative"
• "Content is king and then those of us that are uber nerdy, we're like, no, it's the whole freaking kingdom"
• "Quick and dirty's always quick, but you always end up dirty"

Content Strategy Best Practices

Content Repurposing

• "Create once, distribute forever" approach
• Blog posts fuel social media, email newsletters, videos
• One piece of content can serve multiple channels and purposes
• "No one's gonna see everything" - repurpose thoughtfully

Quality Over Quantity

• Avoid "AI barf" - incoherent AI-generated content dumps
• Focus on educational value over promotional content
• Strategic timing prevents audience fatigue

Target Audience and Client Selection

Ideal Clients

• Intentional leaders who operate with values
• High-value businesses with purpose-driven leadership
• Includes lawyers and law firms, doctors, authors, real estate professionals, coaches

Service Approach

• Holistic marketing perspective
• Educational content that serves and supports clients
• Focus on voicing your value and your values

Actionable Takeaways

For Small Business Owners:

1. Define your ideal client specifically (not "everyone")
2. Identify the questions your ideal clients really want answered
3. Create content that answers those questions across all channels
4. Use AI as a brainstorming tool, not a replacement for expertise
5. Focus on educational content over promotional messaging

For Marketers:

1. Develop content that provides information gain, not just recycling
2. Use holistic approach connecting SEO, social, email, and other channels
3. Treat marketing as investment with compound returns over time
4. Build long-term client relationships through personal touch
5. Stay current with AI tools while maintaining human expertise

Resources and Links

Lorraine Ball:

• Podcast: More Than a Few Words
• LinkedIn: Lorraine Ball
• Website: morethanafewwords.com

Lorrie Thomas Ross:

• Company: Web Marketing Therapy
• LinkedIn: Lorrie Thomas Ross
• Services: Digital Marketing for Attorneys

Host Jeremy Rivera:

• Company: SEO Arcade
• by Brightbeam SEO in Boise, Idaho
• Podcast: Unscripted Small Business
• Services: Long-tail SEO Strategy

Additional Resources Mentioned:

• SEOteric - Matt Brooks
• Right Thing Agency - Michael McDougald
• Know a TOA - Mike Buckbee
• Content Marketing Research

Episode Timestamps

Lorraine Ball Episode:

• 00:01 - Introduction and background
• 02:02 - Email marketing evolution
• 04:44 - Agency scaling decisions
• 08:02 - Company culture and phone policy
• 22:40 - Actionable advice: Answer the questions

Lorrie Thomas Ross Episode:

• Introduction and credibility building
• AI adoption parallels to social media
• Five Factor Framework explanation
• MarkEDing philosophy
• Content strategy in AI era
• Information gain discussion
• Final frameworks and takeaways

These episodes feature insights from marketing professionals with combined 38+ years of experience building agencies, working with small businesses, and adapting to digital marketing evolution.

Guest Information

Katie Wagner

• President & CEO, KWSM Digital Marketing
• Former CNN Television Anchor (15 years in journalism)
• Founded KWSM in 2010
• Expert in lead generation and brand journalism

Connect with Katie:

• Website: kwsmdigital.com
• LinkedIn: Katie Wagner (red dress profile picture)

Host Information

Jeremy Rivera

• Founder, SEO Arcade
• Host, Unscripted SEO Podcast
• SEO Expert & Consultant

Connect with Jeremy:

• About: Jeremy Rivera Bio
• Podcast: Unscripted SEO

Key Topics Discussed

1. The Evolution of SEO

• From Google reverse engineering to brand journalism
• Impact of AI overviews and rich snippets
• The rise of LLM-based search (ChatGPT, Claude)
• How E-E-A-T and helpful content updates changed the game

2. Brand Journalism Strategy

• Creating deeper stories around the humans in a business
• Two-tier content approach: top-funnel educational vs. bottom-funnel conversion
• Quality over quantity in traffic and conversions
• Building credibility through authentic storytelling

3. Revenue-Focused Marketing

• Moving beyond vanity metrics to actual revenue generation
• Importance of understanding profit margins and business fundamentals
• Customer journey mapping and conversion optimization
• The sales process beyond initial website conversions

4. Near Bound Marketing

• Leveraging existing customer relationships for growth
• Strategic partnerships and referral systems
• Using customer testimonials and case studies effectively
• IP detection and heat mapping for customer journey insights

5. Case Study: Save Fry Oil

• Brand recognition challenges in search results
• Creating the "Restaurant Talks" podcast strategy
• 248% organic traffic increase through brand journalism
• Building authority through industry-specific content

6. PR and Media Relations

• Modern press release strategy (not for links, but for audience access)
• Press digest approach to journalist outreach
• Transferring trust through media placements
• Content repurposing from media appearances

7. Content Creation and Distribution

• "Create once, distribute forever" philosophy
• Podcasts as ultimate keyword research (30k-40k words per episode)
• Every brand must be a content creator
• Repurposing video content for SEO benefits

Resources & Tools Mentioned

Companies & Agencies

• KWSM Digital Marketing - Katie's agency
• Right Thing Agency - Nashville SEO agency
• SEOteric - Matt Brooks' company
• Save Fry Oil - Case study company

Podcasts & Content

• Restaurant Talks by Save Fry Oil - Industry podcast case study
• Create Once, Distribute Forever Webinar - Ross Simmonds

Industry References

• The Great Decoupling - "Alligator mouth disconnects" concept

KWSM Resources

Lead Generation & Strategy

• Lead Generation for Professional Services
• Nearbound Marketing Guide
• Marketing Funnel Strategy

Company Information

• KWSM Blog & Resources
• Company Evolution Story

SEO Arcade Resources

Content Strategy

• Repurpose Video Content for SEO
• SEO and UX Strategies
• Link Building Best Practices

Key Takeaways

1. Quality Over Quantity: Focus on fewer, more qualified visitors who convert rather than chasing traffic volume
2. Brand Journalism: Create deeper stories about your business and customers, not just promotional content. Even local service businesses, such as Story Roofing, can strengthen their authority by publishing authentic, story-driven content.
3. Revenue Metrics: Track actual revenue generated, not just leads or conversions
4. Near Bound Marketing: Leverage existing relationships and customer networks for growth
5. Ecosystem Approach: No single tactic works in isolation; build comprehensive marketing infrastructure
6. Content Repurposing: Extract maximum value from every piece of content across multiple channels
7. Business Understanding: Modern marketers must understand profit margins and business fundamentals

Quotes to Remember

"Brand journalism has never been more important. We really lean into that at the agency." - Katie Wagner

"I don't really have ego in those numbers as long as a percentage of it is actually turning into customers for my clients." - Katie Wagner

"Every brand has to be a content creator and they have to be journalists of their own brand." - Katie Wagner

"Gone are the days when one tactic in a vacuum is going to generate all the business you need." - Katie Wagner

Episode Description

In this in-depth conversation, Jeremy Rivera sits down with Virginia Elder, owner of Podcast Abundance, to explore how podcasting fits into modern SEO and content marketing strategies. They discuss the evolution from traditional website-focused SEO to a holistic, cross-channel approach that leverages podcasting, social media, and authentic human connections to build brand authority and drive business growth.

Virginia shares her journey from financial audit work to becoming a podcast production specialist for financial professionals, while Jeremy explains why genuine human conversations can't be replicated by AI and how podcasting creates valuable content ecosystems for businesses.

Key Topics Discussed

The Evolution of SEO Strategy

• The end of the "golden age" of basic SEO tactics
• Impact of Google's Helpful Content Update (HCU) on traditional SEO approaches
• Why websites are no longer the center of the digital marketing universe
• The rise of platform-based businesses (Instagram + Linktree models)

Cross-Channel Marketing Approach

• Moving beyond website-only SEO to multi-platform strategies
• Creating "spider webs" of interconnected content across channels
• The importance of consistent branding across all digital touchpoints
• How different generations evaluate business legitimacy through different platforms. For example, businesses in the travel and lifestyle space, such as Avalon RV, benefit significantly when their branding and content remain consistent across platforms.

Entity Recognition and Personal Branding

• How Google and LLM tools distinguish between people with similar names
• The role of consistent content creation in building entity authority
• Why more content leads to better AI understanding of your expertise
• The importance of video content in establishing credibility

Podcast Production for Business Growth

• Why podcasting creates genuine content that AI cannot replicate
• The power of interviewing business owners to generate authentic content
• How podcasts can replace cold outreach with warm relationship building
• Cross-pollination opportunities within industry ecosystems

Content Creation Strategy

• The difference between AI-generated content and genuine human conversations
• Why batch content creation saves time and improves quality
• Planning content calendars for consistent publishing schedules
• Using podcasts to generate multiple content pieces (blog posts, social media, video clips)

Technical Implementation

• Simple equipment setups that produce professional results
• Low-cost tools and software recommendations
• The myth that you need expensive equipment to start podcasting
• Production workflows that don't overwhelm small business owners

Guest Background: Virginia Elder

Virginia Elder is the owner of Podcast Abundance, a podcast production agency specializing in financial professionals. Her background includes accounting and information management, with experience in sales tax auditing and contract management at construction companies.

Virginia's journey into podcasting began during her personal financial transformation, where she discovered the power of financial education podcasts. After paying off $80,000 in debt in three and a half years through strategies learned from podcasts, she attended a financial content creation conference where she unexpectedly launched two podcast shows for financial advisors.

Her low-cost, excellent tools approach and ability to bring out the personality in naturally awkward professionals has made her a sought-after producer in the financial services space.

Key Takeaways and Action Items

For Business Owners

1. Audit your online presence across all platforms, not just your website
2. Record answers to frequently asked questions as audio or video content
3. Look for cross-pollination opportunities within your industry ecosystem
4. Plan content calendars to reduce stress and improve consistency
5. Consider podcasting as authority building rather than just content creation

For SEO Professionals

1. Expand beyond traditional website optimization to include podcasting and social media
2. Help clients build entity authority through consistent content creation across platforms
3. Use podcast content to generate multiple assets for link building and content marketing
4. Understand that different demographics validate businesses differently
5. Leverage HARO and journalist outreach using podcast content as expertise proof

Content Strategy Implementation

1. Start with your content pillars - identify 3-5 core topics you'll always cover
2. Decide on show positioning - authority building vs. networking/connector approach
3. Batch record episodes to maximize efficiency and maintain consistency
4. Create cross-pollinate links between your podcast, blog, and social content
5. Use shows sponsored by their businesses rather than external advertisers

Statistics and Insights Mentioned

• 2-4 million podcasts exist but less than 500,000 are actively publishing
• Most podcasters quit within 3-10 episodes due to production overwhelm
• Virginia's client helped eliminate $80,000 in debt in 3.5 years using podcast-learned strategies
• 500,000 active podcasts vs. millions of websites creates better opportunity ratios
• Content needs to go beyond 2014 to avoid AI-influenced material

Tools and Resources Referenced

Podcast Production Tools

• Riverside - Recommended recording platform for easy editing and production
• Simple equipment setup - Great microphone, webcam, spare bedroom office
• Garageband and iMovie - Virginia's humble beginnings in 2019
• Various hosting platforms for RSS feed management

Content Creation Resources

• Script Starter Kit - Free resource for planning podcast content structure
• Content calendar planning tools for batch production
• Podcast marketing as a genuine content engine strategies

SEO and Marketing Tools

• HARO (Help a Reporter Out) for journalist outreach
• Featured.com and Quoted.com for expert positioning
• Social media cross-promotion strategies
• Link building through podcast guest relationships

Notable Quotes

Virginia Elder:

"People are really looking for that personal connection these days. And whether that's through your face or through your voice, video versus audio. If they can hear you, they immediately connect more deeply with you than if you're just a guy on LinkedIn or a girl on LinkedIn."

Jeremy Rivera:

"The personal chemistry with you, the conversation, the interaction of my experience with your experience as we thread the needle of our shared topics is something that, as I said in my interview with Jason Barnard of KaliCube, like it's information gain."

Virginia Elder on podcast statistics:

"So for you to get to stand out, just think like think SEO, right? Like what if you were only one of 500,000 websites out there? Holy cow, you would be jumping up and down celebrating that you are one of those websites."

Jeremy Rivera on AI vs. human content:

"Mass producing bulk amounts of AI generated content is not a good content marketing strategy long term. Yes, there are content marketing browsers who show their gains, but then they don't show the huge dip as Google detects that there's no brand entity behind it."

Related Episodes and Resources

Unscripted SEO Podcast Episodes

• Matt Brooks of SEOTeric on entity recognition and business validation
• White label SEO podcast at SEO Arcade discussion on content marketing strategies

Virginia's Services and Content

• Podcast Abundance Services - Full podcast production and editing
• About Virginia's Background - Her journey from finance to podcasting
• Client Portfolio Examples - Real-world podcast success stories
• Content Creation Strategy Guide - Detailed content planning approaches

Contact Information

Virginia Elder
Podcast Abundance
Website: podcastabundance.com
Specialization: Podcast production for financial professionals

Jeremy Rivera
Unscripted SEO Podcast
Cookeville SEO Specialist
Website: unscriptedseo.com

This episode demonstrates why authentic human conversations create irreplaceable value in an AI-dominated content landscape. The discussion provides actionable strategies for business owners looking to leverage podcasting as part of their broader digital marketing and SEO efforts.

Episode Description

Join Jeremy Rivera as he sits down with Chris Turnbull, founder of Catalyst Marketing, for an unfiltered discussion about how SEO has evolved over the past 13 years. From Google's monopolistic behavior to the rise of AI overviews, this conversation explores why local SEO has remained surprisingly stable while broader search continues to fragment across multiple platforms.

Chris shares insights from his journey from apprentice SEO to agency founder, specializing in performance marketing for local service businesses. The duo dives deep into the breakdown of traditional content marketing, the rise of user-generated content, and why Reddit posts now carry the same weight as backlinks from 2015.

Key Topics Covered

The Google Monopoly & Search Evolution

• How Google evolved from "organizing the world's data" to "being the world's data"
• The enshitification of search results and AI overview accuracy issues
• Why we've become "beta testers" for tech corporations
• The removal of search liaison positions and lack of feedback loops

Local SEO: What's Changed vs. What Hasn't

• Why local SEO fundamentals from 2008 still work today
• The continued importance of Google Business Profile, citations, and reviews. Local service companies such as Gaston Roofing rely heavily on these same fundamentals—strong reviews, consistent citations, and an optimized Google Business Profile—to remain competitive in search.
• How LLMs heavily weight reviews and local mentions
• Digital PR as the evolution of community involvement

The Content Creation Paradox

• Google's contradictory demand to "create content for humans" while using bots to consume it
• The problem of trillion duplicate articles from marketing agencies
• How algorithm updates have created unsustainable content cycles
• The information contamination problem with AI-generated content

Multi-Platform SEO Strategy

• Why websites are no longer the central hub of marketing
• The octopus model: tentacles with independent value
• Reddit posts, LinkedIn Pulse, and social media as ranking factors
• The breakdown of walled gardens and rise of indexed social content

Industry Role Evolution

• The rise of fractional CMOs and why traditional SEO roles are expanding
• How SEOs are becoming digital marketing business consultants
• The challenge of specialization vs. generalization in agencies
• Why keyword research now requires understanding of email, social, and brand marketing

Killer Quotes

Jeremy Rivera:

"It feels like we have been demoted to beta testers as the public... I remember search results from 2014 that were so scandalous they got a public apology. Now we have an age of lawlessness."

"Getting a huge upvoted post on Reddit now carries as much weight and value as getting a huge backlink did in 2015."

Chris Turnbull:

"What worked in SEO five years ago is still working now for local high-intent terms... It's dragging people who just focused on SEO into the wider marketing sphere."

"Is there a post-website world? These are big, almost existential questions when it comes to search."

Key Takeaways

• Local SEO fundamentals remain stable despite broader search disruption
• Multi-platform presence is now essential - websites are one tentacle, not the hub
• User-generated content dominates AI results - authentic discussions outweigh traditional content
• SEO roles are expanding into general marketing and business consulting
• The content-traffic exchange is breaking down as Google consumes content without sending traffic

Featured Resources & Links

Guest & Host Links

• Chris Turnbull: Connect on LinkedIn for performance marketing insights
• Catalyst Marketing - Performance marketing for local service businesses
• Jeremy Rivera's white label podcast service - SEO Arcade

Related Content

• SEO Arcade Blog Articles:
  • Google Algorithm Updates Discussion
  • Creating Content Amid Constant Algorithm Changes
  • Local SEO Deep Dive
  • SEO Insights & Research
• Unscripted SEO Interviews:
  • James Dooley: Scaling 9-Figure SEO Business
  • Keith Bresee: People First Framework
  • Bradley Benner: Building Relevant Links
  • Cindy Krum: Mobile-First & AI Evolution

About the Guests

Chris Turnbull has 13+ years of SEO experience, working from small agencies to global accounts and in-house roles with major insurance firms. Since 2021, he's focused exclusively on local service businesses through Catalyst Marketing. He's recently launched a school community for local business owners covering marketing, growth, and business development.

Jeremy Rivera is founder of SEO Arcade and co-host of the Unscripted SEO Podcast. With experience spanning from Raven Tools to local service SEO, he now operates a white label podcasting service that converts expert interviews into content and link-building opportunities for agencies.

Connect & Subscribe

• Unscripted SEO Podcast: Listen to more episodes
• SEO Arcade: Blog & Resources
• Catalyst Marketing: Performance Marketing Services

Like what you heard? Leave a review and subscribe for more unscripted conversations with industry experts.

Episode Overview

Jeremy Rivera interviews Jason Barnard of KaliCube about entity optimization, AI assistive engines, and the future of search. This conversation explores practical strategies for controlling your digital footprint and optimizing for modern search systems.

Explore the COMPLETE Episode, and read the deep dive on SEO Arcade for further topical exploration in the same field of entities, Ai and SEO.

Guest Bio: Jason Barnard

Jason Barnard is the founder of KaliCube and a pioneer in entity optimization. He started in 1998 with a children's website that grew to one billion page views in 2007, competing with BBC and PBS. In 2012, he successfully changed Google's perception of him from "cartoon blue dog" to "respected entrepreneur and digital marketer" - becoming one of the first to master entity transformation.

Related Episodes You'll Love

️ Similar Deep Dives: If you enjoyed this conversation about entities and AI, check out our interview with Mark Williams Cook on technical SEO innovations where we explored how machine learning is reshaping technical optimization strategies.

️ Foundational Concepts: For more on search evolution and brand building, don't miss our conversation with Rand Fishkin on the future of SEO. Rand's perspective on sustainable organic growth strategies pairs perfectly with Jason's entity optimization methodology.

Key Takeaways

• The Algorithmic Trinity: All modern AI systems (Google, ChatGPT, Perplexity) are built on three core technologies - LLM chatbots, knowledge graphs, and search results - all fed from the same data source: the web. Controlling your digital footprint impacts all three simultaneously.
• Entity Optimization Timeline: Search results update within a week, knowledge graphs take about three months to reflect changes, while LLM training data requires up to a year. Understanding these timelines helps set realistic expectations for entity optimization campaigns.
• Industry-Specific Authority Matters: Authority isn't universal - IMDB dominates for movies, Crunchbase for business, legal directories for law. The key is identifying which platforms algorithms trust within your specific industry rather than chasing generic high-authority domains.
• The Claim-Frame-Prove Method: Establishing expertise requires making a claim, framing it within existing knowledge structures, then getting others to corroborate it. This creates "truth" through repetition and consensus, which AI systems then recognize and amplify.

Best Quotes from the Interview

"Which part of the web do you control? Your own digital footprint." - Jason Barnard

"Truth becomes reality due to people repeating it. What you realize is that people sometimes just repeat what they've heard and they don't actually have an opinion." - Jason Barnard

"If you can organize your data source to be logical (because machines are logical), to be meaningful and valuable, and make sure you're connecting out to the proof that what you're saying is true... then you're onto a winning mindset." - Jason Barnard

"Understandability is the foundation. If you don't have that, you're not even in the game." - Jason Barnard

The Evolution from Webmaster to Entity Optimizer

Jeremy Rivera makes the case for bringing back the "webmaster" title, arguing it better describes modern SEO work: integrating signals across email, organic search, entity creation, and website connections to change perception and drive traffic.

Jason's Journey: Starting in 2012, Jason realized it wasn't just his website but his entire digital footprint that needed optimization. While traditional SEO focused purely on websites, he was already optimizing across Facebook, review sites, articles, and social media profiles.

The breakthrough came in 2015 with Hummingbird and Google's shift from strings to things, leading to the creation of KaliCube.

Brand Search and Google's Gaslighting

The conversation reveals how Google representatives like John Mueller and Gary Illyes function as "public relations people" who carefully word statements to avoid giving away ranking factors.

Key insight: When they say "clicks don't change rankings directly," the word "directly" is their escape clause.

Jason's interviews with Bing team leads (Fabrice Canal, Nathan Chalmers, Frederick D'Bou) revealed more transparent information since "they have nothing to lose." This led to early insights about the whole page algorithm, later confirmed by Google as the Magic Mixer.

The Algorithmic Trinity Framework

Core Concept: All modern search systems use three interconnected technologies:

1. LLM chatbots for conversation
2. Search results for current/niche information
3. Knowledge graphs for fact-checking

Critical insight: All three feed from the same data source - the web. Since you control your digital footprint, you can influence all three systems simultaneously.

Timeline expectations:

• Search results: 1 week
• Knowledge graphs: 3 months
• LLM training: 1 year

Industry Authority and the Medic Update

Discussion of the medic update reveals how "distance from seed sites" became a crucial ranking factor. Chiropractors with superior content couldn't compete with WebMD's direct connections to authoritative medical institutions.

Jason's data identified four knowledge sources:

1. Google Knowledge Verticals
2. Wikipedia and highly trusted sources
3. Second generation (one step from seed)
4. Further removed sources

Around 2020-2021, Google began expanding beyond its rigid seed sources, allowing Jason's website to become the authority for his own TV series characters.

The Subjective Nature of Truth

The Claim-Frame-Prove System:

• Claim: Make an assertion about your expertise
• Frame: Connect it to existing knowledge structures
• Prove: Get others to corroborate through repetition

Real example: Jason claims expertise in answer engine optimization, frames it as the precursor to AI assistive engine optimization, then gets validation through interviews and articles.

Jeremy's insight: Creating multiple corroborative sources (show notes, articles, guest posts) transforms subjective claims into "truth" that AI systems recognize.

Unlinked Citations and Modern SEO

Rand Fishkin's concept of unlinked citations from 2013 proves prescient in the AI era. Jason's early investment in mentions without links across SEMrush, Search Engine Watch, and TrustPilot now pays dividends.

Scale perspective: Wikipedia has 6 million articles while Google's Knowledge Graph contains 54 billion entities - 10,000 times larger.

Entity vs. Parameter: In knowledge graphs, you're an entity. In LLMs, you're a parameter. Both can be reinforced through consistent digital footprint management.

Practical Implementation Guide

The Entity Home (About Page)

Essential elements:

• Who you are
• What you do
• Who you serve
• Why you're important in your industry

Technical requirements:

• Links to all corroborative sources
• Social media profiles consistency
• Infinite cycle of self-corroboration

Warning: Google calls this the "point of reconciliation." If you don't own it, they'll assign LinkedIn or Instagram as your entity home - that's rented space you don't control.

Real-World Examples

• Michael McDougald: Struggled with Right Thing agency visibility until adding a proper About page
• Save Fry Oil: Confused entity signals showing "how to save fry oil" instead of the brand until proper entity optimization

Query Fan Out vs. Cascading Queries

Mike King's query fan out concept aligns with Jason's "cascading queries" - both describe how modern systems break down complex queries into component parts.

Micro-AEO approach: Optimize for each cascading query to increase chances of inclusion in LLM outputs.

Warning about reverse engineering: Sites that programmatically answered "people also ask" questions got hit by the HCU update. The solution isn't copying existing answers but adding new perspectives and information gain.

The KaliCube Process

Three-pillar framework:

1. Understandability - Does the machine understand who you are, what you do, who you serve?
2. Credibility - Does it believe you're the most credible solution in market?
3. Deliverability - Does it have content to deliver you to your target audience subset?

Free resources: Download guides at KaliCube.com/guides

Future-Facing Insights

Information Gain Imperative: With LLMs potentially training on their own output, humans must focus on creating genuinely new perspectives and data. A conversation with a 30-year plumbing expert offers more value than another "how to fix a leaky faucet" article.

Continuous Evolution: Every time you provide new information to algorithms, they store it and don't need it again. This creates pressure to keep moving knowledge forward - a positive challenge for perpetual learners.

Essential Resources & Links

Episode Topics:

• Entity-based SEO strategies
• AI optimization techniques
• Digital authority building
• Knowledge graph optimization
• Modern link building approaches
• Future-proofing your SEO strategy
• Technical SEO innovations
• Brand building for search

Industry References:

• Google Knowledge Panels Guide
• Click Behavior as Ranking Factor
• EEAT Guidelines
• Perplexity AI Search Guide

Guest Information:

• Jason Barnard - KaliCube
• Free Process Guide - KaliCube.com/guides

Daniel Horowitz
Senior SEO Manager at Informatica
Connect: LinkedIn

Episode Summary

Daniel Horowitz shares his decade-long journey in SEO, from agency-side link building campaigns to managing enterprise SEO at Informatica. We dive deep into the impact of Google's Helpful Content Update, the shift from traffic-focused to conversion-focused strategies, and practical tactics that still work in the AI-dominated search landscape.

Key Takeaways

• The traditional SEO content model is dead, especially for volume-based sites
• Enterprise SEO success now depends on cross-functional collaboration and subject matter expert interviews
• Internal linking remains one of the most underutilized yet effective strategies
• Platform diversification is essential as Google transitions to being an answer engine
• Community-driven digital PR creates more valuable signals than traditional link building

Episode Timestamps

[00:01] - Introductions and Daniel's background at Informatica
[00:42] - Link building experiences with Shopify Exchange project
[02:09] - Evolution from link building to enterprise SEO strategies
[03:39] - Digital PR vs traditional link building approaches
[07:02] - Google's maker sessions and the "answer engine" revelation
[08:13] - The Helpful Content Update's devastating impact on travel blogging
[09:03] - Enterprise SEO evangelism and cross-functional collaboration
[11:50] - Subject Matter Expert (SME) interview series strategy
[15:05] - Moving beyond basic keyword-focused content
[15:48] - Transitioning from blogs to resource pages and use cases
[19:00] - Justifying content marketing spend with declining traffic
[21:39] - Cross-channel marketing and sentiment analysis
[25:28] - Platform diversification beyond Google
[29:54] - The future of SEO in an AI-dominated world
[37:13] - Actionable advice: The power of internal linking

Topics Discussed

Link Building Evolution

• Shopify Exchange outreach campaigns
• Local directory and publication resistance
• The shift from tactical links to semantic search understanding
• Digital PR becoming more important than traditional link building

Enterprise SEO Strategy

• Cross-functional collaboration with product marketing and web teams
• Building topical authority over chasing head terms
• SME interview series for authentic content creation
• Moving from "what is X" to "use cases of X for Y"

Impact of Algorithm Updates

• Helpful Content Update destroying travel blogging business overnight
• Six-figure revenue loss with no recovery path
• Shift from traffic volume to conversion quality metrics
• AI overviews cannibalizing top-of-funnel content

Modern SEO Tactics

• Internal linking for semantic relevance
• Community engagement and analog events for link building
• Platform diversification strategy
• Creating unified content ecosystems

AI and Search Evolution

• Google's transition to answer engine model
• Optimizing for AI agents and semantic search
• The death of volume-based content strategies
• Future of creator content and platform dependency

Mentioned Resources & Links

People & Companies

• Informatica - Daniel's employer, AI data management company
• Gus Pelogia interview - Similar enterprise SEO challenges at Indeed
• Matt Brooks - SEOteric - "Create once, distribute everywhere" strategy
• Rand Fishkin - Referenced for "rented land platforms" concept

Case Studies & Examples

• Right Thing Agency - Community cleanup link building campaign
• Community Clean Links - Systematic community engagement approach
• Gus Pelogia's LinkedIn Pulse post - Example of successful platform diversification

Host Information

• Jeremy Rivera - Host and SEO consultant
• Unscripted SEO Podcast - Full episode archive

Quotable Moments

"I always liken [link building] to fixing the subway system in New York City, whereas you would have to really shut it down for a while in order to put new track down."

"With AI search, we've lost a lot of traffic, but our conversion rate has actually increased quite a bit because of the types of content we're putting out."

"The SEO content model is dead. I don't think that's coming back."

"Internal linking has been so important. I'm shocked at how many businesses just don't do it and don't consider how things relate to each other."

"Where you're being cited is more important than how you're being cited."

Action Items for Listeners

1. Audit your internal linking structure - Ensure pages connect semantically and guide users through logical next steps
2. Schedule SME interviews - Record 30-minute conversations with your subject matter experts
3. Diversify content distribution - Repurpose content across LinkedIn, Medium, Reddit, and industry-specific platforms
4. Focus on middle and bottom-funnel content - Create content AI overviews can't adequately summarize
5. Implement cross-functional SEO collaboration - Work with product, marketing, and web teams for unified strategyRelated Episodes

• Gus Pelogia: Adapting to Search Technology Changes in SEO

Subscribe & Connect

• Podcast Website: unscriptedseo.com
• Host Website: jeremyriveraseo.com
• Available on all major podcast platforms

These show notes were created to help listeners navigate key topics and access mentioned resources. For the complete conversation and full context, listen to the full episode.

In this UnscriptedSEO conversation, Jeremy Rivera and LinkedIn expert Daniel Alfon discuss the often-overlooked potential of LinkedIn as a powerful SEO tool.

They explore the evolution of social media, the importance of authority and identity on LinkedIn, and strategies for targeting the right audience. The discussion also covers the nuances of B2B versus B2C marketing, optimizing LinkedIn profiles, the significance of recommendations, and the differences between posting articles and posts. Alfon emphasizes the importance of understanding user behavior on LinkedIn and how to convert connections into meaningful business relationships.

Takeaways

• LinkedIn is often underestimated as an SEO tool.
• Most users treat LinkedIn as a static resume.
• A mismatch between online presence and real-life personality can hinder success.
• Authority on LinkedIn can significantly impact visibility.
• Profiles are more important than content posting for success.
• Recommendations enhance credibility and trust— something especially valuable for service-based businesses like Coy Construction.
• Understanding your audience is key to effective marketing.
• Content shelf life determines whether to post or write an article.
• User-generated content can boost SEO visibility.
• Conversion strategies should focus on moving users to your own domain.

In this episode of the Unscripted SEO podcast, Keith Breseé hosts Paritosh Pareek and Anthony Prichard from WP Sprints to discuss the critical aspects of SEO, particularly focusing on technical SEO and video strategies for local businesses. They explore the importance of optimizing video content for search engines, common mistakes made in WordPress SEO, and the role of AI in content creation. The conversation emphasizes the need for businesses to adapt to changing SEO landscapes and leverage video as a powerful tool for building trust and visibility online.

Takeaways

• Video SEO is crucial for local businesses, especially those in service industries like Stonedepot MI, where showcasing products and installations can significantly boost trust and visibility.
• Optimizing video titles and descriptions can enhance search visibility.
• Technical SEO mistakes can severely impact website performance.
• AI tools can assist in content creation but should not replace human oversight.
• Building trust through video content is essential for conversions.
• Local businesses should utilize video to engage their audience effectively.
• WordPress users often overlook basic SEO settings that hinder performance.
• Choosing the right hosting can affect website speed and SEO rankings.
• Content that answers user questions is more likely to convert.
• AI can streamline content creation but requires careful implementation.

Episode Overview

In this deep-dive conversation, Jeremy Rivera and Melissa Popp explore the seismic shifts happening in SEO and digital marketing. From AI overviews decimating organic click-through rates to the fundamental question of whether SEO as we know it still exists, this episode tackles the industry's biggest challenges and opportunities.

Key Discussion Points:

• Why SEO was just "Google reverse engineering" from 2010-2021
• The impact of AI overviews on organic traffic (down to 1% CTR)
• How to adapt SEO strategies for LLMs and multi-platform search
• The death of top-funnel content and what replaces it
• Why the industry needs a value proposition beyond Google rankings

Best Quotes from This Episode

"We should be more in the ecosystem... our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?" - Melissa Popp

"From 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google. That was it. That was our job. We can't ignore other methods or other ways that search occurs." - Jeremy Rivera

"Chat GPT is now your most popular and least knowledgeable customer representative." - Referenced insight from Mike Buckby

"I question whether we actually see the death of the top of the funnel... we relied so much on top of the funnel to drive people in and guide them to the right place on our websites." - Melissa Popp

Key Takeaways & Action Items

✅ For SEO Professionals

• Expand beyond Google optimization - Start incorporating LLM visibility strategies into your workflows
• Learn automation tools - If you're not using tools like N8n for workflow automation, you're falling behind
• Shift metrics focus - Move from clicks/impressions to user capture and email acquisition
• Test LLM strategies - Start experimenting with content approaches for different AI platforms

✅ For Agency Owners

• Reposition your value proposition - Stop selling "Google rankings" and start selling comprehensive digital visibility
• Invest in multi-channel capabilities - Build expertise across social platforms, LLMs, and emerging search technologies
• Update client education - Help clients understand the new search landscape beyond traditional SEO

✅ For Content Creators

• Prepare for longer queries - Optimize for 30-40 word conversational searches, not just 2-4 word keywords
• Create bot-friendly content - Write with the understanding that AI will be reading and summarizing your content
• Focus on comprehensive coverage - Address topics thoroughly since users may get answers without clicking

Detailed Show Notes

[00:00 - 05:00] The Longest Year in Marketing

Jeremy opens discussing how much the SEO world has changed since their last conversation in December. Melissa describes this as "the longest year of marketing in a decade" due to:

• Integration of AI overviews in Google search results
• Every client asking about LLM visibility
• ChatGPT now using UTM codes (visible in GA4)
• The challenge of figuring out what still works vs. what's new

Key Resources Mentioned:

• Lily Ray's social media for AI overview fail examples

[05:00 - 12:00] Industry Response: Two Extremes

Discussion of how the SEO industry is responding with two distinct approaches:

1. The Deep End: People claiming to have cracked LLM optimization
2. The Practical Approach: Building on existing best practices while adapting

Melissa emphasizes that we still don't understand how LLMs work - "if you put 10 people side by side with the same query in an LLM, you're going to get 10 different answers."

Jeremy references Mike King's recent episode about SEO being "deprecated" but questions whether the complex solutions are just "make more different content in more places."

[12:00 - 18:00] The 90/10 Split: Enterprise vs Local SEO

Melissa breaks down the industry reality:

• 10% of SEOs work with enterprise clients where complex query fan-out strategies might be relevant
• 90% work with clients in local space where content quality is still poor and basic optimization wins

For local businesses in "Cheyenne, Wyoming," complex LLM strategies aren't necessary - foundational SEO still works because competition is weak.

This is also true for many local service providers like Aloha Marine, where strong fundamentals and clear multi-channel visibility still outperform overly complex AI-centric approaches.

[18:00 - 25:00] Historical Context: The Google Reverse Engineering Era

Jeremy makes the case that "from 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google" and that era is over.

Key points:

• SEO success was directly tied to understanding Google's algorithm
• The industry forgot other search engines existed during Google's dominance
• Now we need to think like digital marketers, not just Google reverse engineers
• The challenge is redefining our unique selling proposition beyond Google rankings

[25:00 - 32:00] The Click-Through Crisis & Google's Gaslighting

Jeremy calls out Google's claims about sending "more clicks to the ecosystem" as gaslighting, noting:

• AI overviews showing 1% organic click-through rates
• This is on top of HCU (Helpful Content Update) damage
• Search liaison position on Twitter has been deactivated
• SEO professionals who believe Google's traffic claims "should not be calling themselves SEO professionals"

Melissa adds context about Google being a for-profit company whose mission "is no longer to make the world better - it's to make as much money as possible."

[32:00 - 38:00] Multi-Platform Search Reality

Discussion of search beyond Google:

• Bing integration in Windows systems and Co-Pilot
• TikTok SEO explosion and the territorial disputes between SEOs and social media marketing professionals
• Amazon SEO as an untapped opportunity
• The need to meet audiences where they are, not just where we're comfortable

Key insight: "Search exists in so many different places, not just this myopic view we have that it's just Google that matters."

[38:00 - 45:00] Repositioning Our Value & The Midlife Crisis

Melissa: "Our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?"

The conversation explores how to bake in other parts of marketing into SEO work and how "we're having a midlife identity crisis as marketers."

AI has the potential to:

• Change workflows and efficiency
• Give more time for strategic thinking
• Allow for more creativity beyond the "limited SEO box"

[45:00 - 50:00] The Death of Top-Funnel Content?

Melissa poses a provocative question: Are we seeing "the death of the top of the funnel?"

Key observations:

• Users getting answers directly from AI overviews without clicking
• Same pattern happening across social media and video platforms
• If users get "correct" answers from AI, why click through to read informational articles?
• The fundamental shift in how people interact with information sources

[50:00 - 55:00] Testing, Experimentation & The Black Hat Silence

Discussion of the need for proper testing in the LLM era:

• Melissa: "I see a lot of people claiming XYZ works for AI optimization. How does anybody know?"
• Need for more data, more case studies before making claims
• The surprising silence from black hat SEO communities
• Ray Martinez's work at Archer as an example of proper testing methodology

Jeremy notes the rapid iteration of LLM models makes testing challenging - "GPT just changed from four to five and Claude moved from Sonic to Knuckles."

[55:00 - 60:00] The Bot Sandwich & Future Skills

Jeremy introduces the concept of the "double bot sandwich" - humans using bots to create content that other bots read and summarize for other humans.

Critical skill gaps identified:

• If you're "not learning how to use N8n to daisy chain multiple commands"
• Still stuck "in the mode of I need to log in and edit this WordPress post"
• "You're probably going to lose in the arms race"

Melissa discusses the personalization and bias issues in LLM platforms that we can't optimize for.

Nonprofit & Multi-Channel Applications

Special segment on how these changes impact organizations without direct sales:

• Nonprofits, news sites, and content-driven businesses
• Importance of branding, multi-channel marketing, and distribution
• Need to be on TikTok, Instagram, email marketing, etc.
• "Multi-channel is more important than ever. Get on the truck, everybody."

The New Value Metric: Capture Over Clicks

Jeremy: "The value in SEO is no longer the click. It is the capture of that user."

New success frameworks:

• Focus on email capture, retargeting, and multi-touch conversions
• Understanding 6-month nurturing cycles vs. immediate conversions
• Coordinating with e-commerce teams for inventory management
• Building comprehensive user journey optimization

Traditional vs Modern SEO Comparison

Aspect Traditional SEO (2010-2021) Modern Digital Marketing (2024+) Primary Focus Google algorithm reverse engineering Multi-platform search optimization Success Metrics Rankings, clicks, impressions User capture, email acquisition, multi-touch conversions Content Strategy Keyword-focused articles Conversational, comprehensive content for 30-40 word queries Platform Coverage Google-centric Google, LLMs, social platforms, voice search, emerging tech Skill Requirements On-page optimization, link building Automation workflows, AI integration, multi-channel coordination Value Proposition "We'll get you ranked and drive traffic" "We'll capture and nurture your ideal customers across all digital touchpoints" Forecasting Ability Confident traffic projections Directional insights with adaptation strategies

Important Resources & Links

Guest Resources

• Melissa Popp's Website
• Rickety Roo Agency
• Melissa on Twitter

Host Resources

• Jeremy Rivera SEO
• SEO Arcade
• Unscripted SEO Podcast

Specialized Content Areas

• Local SEO Content Strategies
• AI Content Marketing Workflows
• SEO Testing Methodologies
• Advanced SEO Strategies
• Content Marketing SEO Integration

Upcoming Events & Announcements

Melissa Popp Speaking Events:

• September 2024: Local SEO for Good with Bright Local (raising funds for Human Rights Campaign)
• October 2024: Women in Tech Fest, Philadelphia - "AI Workflow for Writing Content in Your Own Voice" (full workflow will be shared publicly after the event)

Continue the Conversation

Connect with the Hosts:

• Tweet us your thoughts using #UnscriptedSEO
• Share your own LLM optimization experiments
• Let us know how you're adapting your value proposition

Related Episodes:

• Mike King on SEO Evolution
• Google Algorithm Updates Strategy
• Social Media SEO Integration

In this episode, Jeremy Rivera interviews Chuck McHenry, who shares his extensive journey in the marketing and SEO industry. Chuck discusses the evolution of SEO, the importance of location pages, and how AI and LLMs are changing the landscape of digital marketing. He emphasizes the significance of social media in local services and the need for marketers to diversify their strategies to stay relevant in a rapidly changing environment.

Takeaways

• Chuck McHenry started his journey in marketing in 2004 with a focus on SEO.
• Location pages are crucial for local SEO success.
• How he's now using SEO for his Southern California powerwashing company 
• The basics of SEO are making a comeback in effectiveness.
• AI and LLMs are influencing how customers find service providers.
• Social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram are vital for local service marketing.
• Video content on platforms like YouTube can significantly enhance visibility.
• Marketers need to embrace a multi-channel approach to reach their audience.
• Google is indexing social media content, which can impact search results.
• Understanding customer needs and providing detailed service information is essential.
• The future of SEO requires adapting to new technologies and marketing methods.

The discussion covers the evolution from traditional SEO tactics to attention-based strategies, the power of showmanship in marketing, and why Justin believes every industry needs its own "Dogecoin" - that disruptive, attention-grabbing player that changes the game.

Key Topics Discussed

• The Shift from SEO to Attention Economy: How AI and LLM-based search tools are changing the game from keyword optimization to consensus-based visibility
• Showmanship Over Persuasion: Why Justin believes marketing is fundamentally about putting on a show rather than traditional persuasion techniques
• The Publicity Approach: Moving beyond personal branding to manufactured attention and strategic controversy
• Fame as the Ultimate Marketing Goal: How attention beats traditional marketing metrics and makes everything else easier
• Social-Centric Marketing: Using organic social media as a springboard for broader publicity efforts

Notable Quotes

"I do not believe that advertising or marketing is about persuasion. I don't think it's about selling. I don't think it's about even storytelling. I think those are all techniques for what the main thing that advertising and marketing and branding is, which is showmanship." - Justin Oberman

"All advertising is guesswork, nobody really understands how it works. It's all a gamble. And the only thing that really matters is fame. The more famous you are, the easier everything becomes." - Bob Hoffman (as quoted by Justin)

Resources & Links

Guest Information

• Justin Oberman on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/justinoberman
• Oberman and Partners: Done-for-you publicity services https://www.obermanpartners.com/ 
• Genius Scouts: geniusscouts.com - Educational platform and free monthly masterclasses
• Instagram/X: @OBERCREATIVE8

Books, Services & References Mentioned

• "Phantom Fame" by Harry Reichenbach - The foundational book that shaped Justin's publicity philosophy
• "Propaganda" by Edward Bernays - Classic text on public relations and influence
• Price Intelligently by SBI - The importance of understanding pricing perceptions on your marketing choices
• Howard Luck Gossage - The advertising innovator who invented interactive advertising in the 1960s

Podcast & Host Information

• Unscripted SEO Podcast: unscriptedseo.com
• SEO Arcade (Jeremy's Agency): seoarcade.com
• Host: Jeremy Rivera

Additional Networks Mentioned

• Jumpsuit Network - Marketing and advertising professional network

Key Takeaways for SEO & Digital Marketing Professionals

1. Rethink Link Building: Instead of cold outreach, focus on becoming visible to industry publishers and journalists through consistent public discourse
2. Attention Drives Authority: In an AI-driven search landscape, consensus matters more than traditional SEO tactics
3. Personal Brands Need Shows: Move beyond content creation to strategic attention manufacturing
4. Fame Amplifies Everything: Strong personal/company recognition makes all other marketing efforts more effective
5. Boring Industries Have Advantages: Less competition for attention means smaller efforts can yield bigger results. Even traditionally low-attention businesses like Mondragon Milling
   can generate an outsized impact when they apply attention-based marketing strategies.

Connect with the Show

Have questions about this episode or want to suggest future topics? Reach out to Jeremy Rivera through SEO Arcade or connect on the platforms mentioned above.

Subscribe to Unscripted SEO: unscriptedseo.com

This episode challenges traditional digital marketing thinking and offers a fresh perspective on building authority and visibility in an increasingly crowded online landscape. Whether you're an SEO professional, content creator, or business owner, Justin's insights on manufactured attention provide actionable strategies for standing out in your industry.

Key Topics Discussed:

The current state of SEO and its transformation over the years Strategies for focusing on middle and bottom-of-the-funnel content The impact of AI on consumer behavior and search patterns The role of collaboration in enhancing marketing and SEO efforts Practical tips for achieving quick wins in SEO. Local service businesses such as Wayne Tile rely heavily on these SEO strategies to capture high-intent customers.

Guest Bio: Jason Berkowitz is an SEO expert with over a decade of experience. As the founder of Break the Web, he helps brands make SEO more measurable and accessible.

Connect with Jason on Linkedin:

About the Host

Jeremy Rivera is an SEO expert and podcast host who helps businesses navigate the evolving landscape of search engine optimization.

Connect with Jeremy:

• Unscripted SEO Podcast
• SEO Arcade - White Label Podcast Content Marketing Agency
• Personal Website

About the Guest

Ryan Jones is the Marketing Manager at SEO Testing, bringing nearly 10 years of experience across agency, client-side, in-house, and freelance SEO work. He's passionate about data-driven SEO strategies and testing methodologies.

Connect with Ryan:

• SEO Testing - 14-day free trial available
• LinkedIn: @Ryan Jones SEO
• Twitter/X: @Ryan Jones SEO
• Blue Sky: @Ryan Jones SEO

Key Topics Discussed

The Evolution of SEO Roles

• Moving beyond traditional keyword research limitations
• Creating demand vs. finding existing demand
• Multi-channel marketing integration

Impact of AI and Google's Changes

• AI Overviews reducing informational traffic
• The shift from traffic volume to traffic quality
• Google's changing relationship with publishers

SEO Testing Strategies

• Internal linking optimization (their biggest win: 1000% increase)
• Content refresh strategies
• Schema markup implementation
• Cross-channel content distribution

Actionable Takeaways

• Test schema markup implementation on videos, about pages, and other content
• Use social media engagement as a gauge for content topics
• Focus on horizontal content distribution across multiple platforms
• Implement structured testing to prove SEO value to clients

Notable Quotes

"I think SEO is becoming now and it will become more multi-disciplined... we're gonna get more and more people using LLMs to search for what they need." - Ryan Jones

"The traffic that we do get from LLMs... seems to be really high intent and it is actually converting at a much higher rate than the organic traffic." - Ryan Jones

Resources Mentioned

• SEO Testing platform with 14-day free trial
• Various schema markup types (video, site name, about page)
• Cross-platform content distribution strategies

They also discuss innovative marketing strategies for traditionally boring industries and the importance of leveraging super fans for authentic promotion. The conversation concludes with Marisa's upcoming retreat for women entrepreneurs, highlighting the need for support and resources in business development.

In this episode of the Unscripted SEO Podcast, Keith Bresee and Anthony Prichard, a video marketing expert, discuss the intricacies of video SEO, emphasizing its importance in digital marketing. They explore strategies for optimizing video content for both Google and YouTube, the significance of engaging thumbnails, and the role of consistency in building an audience. Anthony shares practical tips for creating effective video content, utilizing Google My Business, and the technical aspects of video SEO. The conversation highlights the need for businesses to embrace video as a powerful tool for growth and connection with their audience.

Takeaways

• Video is a powerful tool for SEO and marketing.
• Engaging video content can significantly increase traffic.
• Utilizing Google My Business with video can enhance visibility.
• Consistency in posting videos is crucial for audience growth.
• Thumbnails play a vital role in attracting viewers.
• Crafting a compelling hook is essential for viewer retention.
• Understanding your audience is key to effective content creation.
• Technical SEO elements are important for video optimization.
• Building engagement through comments and likes boosts visibility.
• Keep video content simple and authentic to connect with viewers.

Guest: Nick Jane, CEO & Founder of Content Hurricane
Host: Jeremy Rivera, Unscripted Podcast
Episode Topic: AI-Powered Content Creation and SEO Strategy

About the Guest

Nick Jane brings a unique background combining Wall Street investment experience with tech entrepreneurship. After 10 years as a professional investor and leadership roles at companies generating over $100M in revenue, Nick recently left his position as CEO of Ideascale (the world's largest innovation software company) to launch Content Hurricane.

Key Discussion Points

• Content Hurricane Overview: AI-powered blog writing platform designed for SEO optimization
• Technical Approach: Using Gemini AI with proprietary enhancement frameworks
• SEO Philosophy: Focus on creating genuinely useful content rather than gaming Google's algorithm
• E-E-A-T Standards: How AI can meet Google's Experience, Expertise, Authority, and Trust requirements
• Hallucination Prevention: Multi-layer fact-checking and temperature control systems
• Speed vs Quality: Delivering content in under 60 seconds without sacrificing quality

Tools & Platforms Mentioned

• Content Hurricane
• ChatGPT
• Claude
• Perplexity
• Gemini
• Jasper
• Copy.ai
• WordPress
• Webflow
• Shopify

Resources & Links

• Content Hurricane: https://contenthurricane.com/
• Free Trial: 5 articles free, no credit card required
• Contact: nickj@contenthurricane.com
• Jeremy Rivera's Services: SEO Arcade

Unscripted SEO Podcast Episode

Read the in-depth recap "Why 90% of Businesses Can't Convert Leads (And How to Fix It)"

Episode Description

Drewbie Wilson, the self-proclaimed "Meme Lord" and founder of Call the Damn Leads, joins Jeremy Rivera to discuss the massive disconnect between marketing and sales teams. From his tattooed knuckles to his no-nonsense approach to lead follow-up, Drewbie shares why 90% of business owners can't explain what happens to their leads and how to fix the broken system that's costing businesses millions.

Guest Bio

Drewbie Wilson - Founder of Call the Damn Leads

• Self-proclaimed "Meme Lord" (literally tattooed on his knuckles)
• Sales and marketing expert with street-smart background
• E-commerce business owner selling sales motivation apparel
• Sales coach and mentor specializing in lead conversion
• Author of sales training courses including "Closing the Loop"

Key Topics Covered

The Lead Follow-Up Crisis (5:30)

• Why only 1% of businesses call leads back same day
• The shocking reality: only 10% ever call back at all
• Case study: Real estate leads sitting untouched for weeks
• The $1 trillion cost of sales and marketing misalignment

⚡ Speed-to-Lead Statistics (12:45)

• 80% of people buy from the first person they contact
• 391% higher conversion rates when calling within 1 minute
• Why most sales reps quit after 2-3 calls
• The psychology behind immediate response

The 30-Day Follow-Up System (18:20)

• Drewbie's proven touch-point sequence
• Day 1: Call + Text
• Strategic follow-ups on days 8, 10, 15, 21, 28, 31
• Why persistence beats perfection

Sales & Marketing Alignment (25:15)

• Why 90% of business owners can't explain their lead process
• The front-end promise vs. back-end delivery problem
• How misalignment costs 10% of revenue annually
• Creating cohesion between teams

Marketing "Unsexy" Industries (32:40)

• Using dark humor for serious topics (CPR classes example)
• The toilet partition Reddit case study
• Creating problem awareness without shame
• Memes as marketing tools

Content Strategy Reality Check (38:50)

• Why the "ultimate guide" approach fails
• Microwave directions: Simple, sequential instructions
• Interview your experts vs. 10 hours of keyword research
• "Did you talk to anybody?" - The expert interview strategy

Trust in the Digital Age (45:30)

• Why certificates matter less than conversation quality
• Authentic expertise vs. degrees
• Google's AI summaries changing search behavior
• Building trust through helpful content

⏰ Time Management Mastery (52:10)

• Time, energy, effort: The only unrecoverable resources
• ROI measurement on every activity
• 1 hour conversation > 10 hours keyword research
• Where most marketers waste time

Best Quotes

"90 some percent of business owners can't give you a distinct answer" when asked what happens to their leads.

"Time, energy, and effort are the only resources we cannot get back."

"People don't want to be sold something. They want to make a decision to buy."

"If you're not problem aware you don't know what you don't know until you know."

"Did you talk to anybody? Did you talk to anybody?"

"Sales and marketing, they have to work in cohesion."

Key Statistics Mentioned

• 1% of businesses call leads back same day
• 10% of businesses ever call leads back
• 80% of people buy from first person they talk to
• 391% higher conversion calling within 1 minute
• 8-12 touchpoints used to convert (now 500+)
• 90% of business owners can't explain lead process
• 60-70% of B2B marketing content goes unused
• $1 trillion lost annually to sales/marketing misalignment

Resources & Links

Drewbie Wilson / Call the Damn Leads

• Website: CalltheDamnLeads.com
• T-shirts & Apparel: Collections
• Sales Training: Damn Closer Bundle
• Book: Signed Paperback
• Social: @CalltheDamnLeads (all platforms)

Jeremy Rivera / Host

• Unscripted SEO Podcast: UnscriptedSEO.com
• SEO Forecasting Tool: SEOArcade.com
• More Episodes: Recent Podcasts

Supporting Research

• Lead Conversion Statistics
• Speed-to-Lead Research
• Sales Follow-Up Data
• Sales & Marketing Alignment
• Conversion Rate Studies

Action Items for Listeners

Immediate (This Week)

1. Audit your lead response time - How long until first contact?
2. Map your current follow-up process - Document what actually happens
3. Set a 5-minute response goal - Create alerts and workflows
4. Ask the question: "What happens when a lead comes in today?"

Short-term (This Month)

1. Create a 30-day follow-up sequence - Don't quit after 2 calls
2. Interview your top expert - Record 1 hour conversation
3. Align sales and marketing metrics - Shared goals, shared success
4. Implement "microwave directions" - Simplify all instructions

Long-term (Next Quarter)

1. Measure time ROI on all activities - Track what drives results
2. Create problem awareness content - Use humor appropriately
3. Build conversation-based trust - Focus on expertise over credentials
4. Develop authentic content strategy - Stop keyword stuffing

In this UnscriptedSEO conversation, Jeremy Rivera and Cauveé (also known as Cauvee) the "Inspiration Engineer®” discuss the concept of personal branding, the importance of SEO, and the evolving landscape of marketing in the age of AI.

Cauvee shares his journey as an 'Inspiration Engineer' and emphasizes the need for individuals to build their personal brands while navigating the complexities of social media platforms. They explore the impact of AI and LLMs on marketing strategies and the necessity of securing one's online presence.

The discussion culminates in strategies for monetizing content effectively.

Code: UNSCRIPTED https://www.inspirationengineer.com/unscripted-seo-bundle

Takeaways

• Cauvee defines himself as an 'Inspiration Engineer' to awaken dreamers.
• Personal branding is essential in today's marketplace.
• The more skills you have, the more valuable you are.
• Your personal brand is shaped by how others perceive you.
• AI is a tool that can be used for both good and bad.
• Collecting emails is crucial when using rented platforms.
• Engagement and conversation are key in social media.
• AI can assist in various tasks, but it requires careful use.
• Content must be indexable for better visibility.
• Monetizing content requires a strategic approach.

Episode Overview

LinkedIn expert Al Kushner shares 20+ years of experience on how to leverage LinkedIn for business growth, combining traditional networking strategies with modern AI tools. From profile optimization to video content creation, this episode covers everything professionals need to know about building meaningful connections and driving business results on LinkedIn.

Key Topics Discussed

Profile Optimization Fundamentals

• Why your headshot is critical for first impressions
• The importance of 5-10 recommendations before outreach
• How to optimize your profile for professional credibility

Video Content Strategy

• Native video uploads vs. external links
• 60-90 second educational content guidelines
• Why videos get automatically accepted in groups

AI-Enhanced LinkedIn Strategy

• Using ChatGPT to enhance influencer engagement
• Balancing automation with authentic communication
• Why primitive automation tools should be avoided

LinkedIn Newsletter Power

• How LinkedIn newsletters bypass corporate spam filters
• Creating up to 5 targeted newsletters by industry
• Reaching audiences both on and off LinkedIn

Sales Navigator Deep Dive

• $99/month investment breakdown and ROI
• 312% ROI over 3 years according to Forrester study
• Advanced filtering and 50 InMail credits
• Dynamic background images and activity tracking

Content Best Practices

• 750-1000 word article guidelines
• Strategic emoji usage by demographic
• Image inclusion for better engagement
• Industry-specific newsletter segmentation

Quotable Moments

"You don't get a second chance to make a first impression. If you're going to do any type of outreach, make sure your profile looks as professional as possible."

"The way to approach professionals on LinkedIn is to really provide value to them - educate them on topics that are particularly pain points for them."

"LinkedIn has such high authority that it usually bypasses spam filters in corporate emails."

"I find my organic method more effective than ads because when I post, it's educational and informative, not an ad."

The discussion also touches on the interplay between paid and organic strategies, highlighting how they can complement each other for better results. Lisa shares insights on how marketers can leverage AI tools while maintaining a human touch in their strategies.