What if the biggest obstacle to ministry isn't a lack of resources, programs, or content — but a missing system for actually knowing the people in front of you?

In this bonus episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Josh Packard, sociologist of religion and co-founder of Future of Faith, for a wide-ranging conversation about one of the most urgent challenges facing the Church today: how to do genuine relational ministry at scale.

Drawing on years of research data and his experience at Spring Tide Research Institute and NCEA, Josh explains why trust in institutions is collapsing — and why the only antidote is time spent in a real, consistent relationship. He introduces practical tools anyone can download free at futureoffaith.org, shares why Gen Z isn't "leaving the church" (their parents already did), and makes a compelling case for why AI will only make human connection more, not less, essential.

If you work in ministry, Catholic education, or any field that depends on reaching young people, this episode is required listening.

ABOUT JOSH PACKARD

Josh Packard is a sociologist of religion and a former professor at the University of Northern Colorado, where he taught applied sociology. He was the founding executive director of Spring Tide Research Institute, one of the most respected sources of data on youth and faith in the United States. He is now co-founder of Future of Faith, a nonprofit dedicated to helping ministry leaders build scalable relational tools grounded in a theology of sacred listening.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:

1. Trust has collapsed — and that changes everything
2. Relational ministry needs a system, not just good intentions
3. The Text to Connect tool
4. Belonging before believing — and time before truth
5. Gen Z didn't leave — they were never there
6. The Church's strongest offering may be its most overlooked
7. AI will deepen — not solve — the relational challenge

 

• 0:00 — Introduction: Who is Josh Packard, and what is Future of Faith?
• 2:15 — The Core Problem: How do you do relational ministry at scale when people only trust what's right in front of them?
• 5:30 — The Free Tools: What the Future of Faith listening tools are and how to download them at futureoffaith.org.
• 10:30 — Text to Connect: A step-by-step walkthrough of the emoji-based check-in tool — and how a color-coded Google Sheet can transform youth ministry.
• 14:00 — The Youth Minister's Dilemma: A real-world portrait of a minister running on voice memos, Apple Notes, and reactive attention.
• 20:00 — Sacred Listening vs. Ministry with an Agenda: John challenges Josh: can you really listen without an end in mind?
• 23:30 — Time, Trust, Truth: The framework that flips the church's traditional approach: belonging before believing.
• .31:00 — Tarot, Crystals, and the Spiritual-but-not-Religious: Why young people are finding spiritual systems on TikTok that the Church hasn't figured out how to offer.
• 39:00 — Young People Aren't Leaving the Church: Josh pushes back: their parents left. The generation the Church is trying to reach was never there.
• 42:00 — The Church Is Answering Questions Nobody Is Asking: John on the disconnect between pulpit priorities and what young people actually need.
• 57:00 — AI and the Future of Trust: Why artificial intelligence will push the locus of trust lower — toward one-on-one relationships — and what that means for the Church.

MEMORABLE QUOTES

For sharing on social media or in your community:

"I want to be useful, not interesting. — Josh Packard"

"Belonging comes before believing. It goes time, trust, truth. — Josh Packard"

"The church is often answering questions that nobody is asking. — Fr. John"

"They're not leaving the church. Their parents left. — Josh Packard"

"There are armies of PhDs who are not trying to make Instagram better. They're trying to make you look at Instagram more. — Josh Packard"

"If we spend enough time with you, if we get to know you, if we're in a relationship with you, we can build trust with you — and then I can get to share with you the truth that is so beautiful that I want you to know. — Josh Packard"

 RESOURCES & LINKS

Future of Faith

futureoffaith.org

Sign up for the newsletter to receive updates on new tools and research. (Josh guarantees it will contain the most emojis of any newsletter you receive this year.)

ORGANIZATIONS MENTIONED

• Spring Tide Research Institute — National data on youth and faith
• NCEA — National Catholic Educational Association
• Rooted Good / Gone for Good — Church property reinvention (Mark Elson)
• Bricks and Mortals — Sacred spaces reimagined (Kate Toth, New York City)
• Young Life — Parachurch outreach model, including the folding table approach
• Hallow — Catholic prayer and meditation app
• com — Interdenominational prayer app

RESEARCH REFERENCED

• National Study of Youth and Religion (Christian Smith, Notre Dame) — Source of the "moralistic therapeutic deism" framework
• Future of Faith listening and faith formation study — results forthcoming January 2025
• DeSales Media Discipleship Study — referenced throughout, showing Gen Z's desire for in-person community and lower rates of personal prayer

PEOPLE MENTIONED

• Megan Bissell — Co-founder, Future of Faith
• Kedrin (Potter's House, Dallas) — Developer of the time/trust/truth framework
• Alessandro — Upcoming guest on the Religion to Reality webinar series
• Shannon Hopkins — Key figure at Rooted Good with UK church experience

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform

Follow us on social media 

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

What happens when the Church you love has also hurt you? For many Catholics, there's no safe space to hold both truths at once, until now. In this powerful bonus episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich talk with Paul Fahey, licensed counselor, catechist, and host of the Third Space Podcast, to unpack what spiritual abuse really looks like, why so many Catholics unknowingly surrender their freedom, and how genuine listening may be the most prophetic act the Church can offer right now. 

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• Spiritual abuse — coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context — is far more widespread than most Catholics realize.
• Claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, or presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, are clear markers of spiritual coercion.
• The desire to surrender freedom to rules or authority is deeply human and easily exploited. Mature faith requires owning one's conscience.
• Using "the devil" as a scapegoat can itself become a mechanism of harm. True discernment leads to solidarity, not deflection.
• Success in ministry is not measured by numbers, but by whether someone experiences encounter, gains language for their experience, and knows they are not alone.
• The most prophetic gift Christians can offer today may simply be listening — without an agenda.

[00:00] — Introducing Paul Fahey Paul shares his background: eight years as a parish Director of Religious Education, husband and father of five, and now a licensed counselor in Michigan.

[01:30] — From Pope Francis Generation to The Third Space Paul co-founded the Pope Francis Generation Podcast with Dominic Dusa of Smart Catholics after unexpectedly leaving his parish job. As his work with abuse survivors deepened, he began noticing gaps between Pope Francis' teaching on human dignity and his governing decisions — prompting a full rebrand toward a podcast centered on Christ in the vulnerable and marginalized.

[06:00] — What Is "The Third Space"? Inspired by a conversation with mentor Monica Pope, Paul identified a void: survivors of Church harm are met either with Catholic defensiveness or with "why do you even stay?" The Third Space holds both — a place for people who want congruence between their experience of harm and their experience of good in the Church.

[07:45] — Who Is This Podcast For? Survivors of clerical sexual abuse, yes — but also the much broader category of spiritual abuse. Paul cites research from Dr. Lisa Oakley (UK) suggesting roughly 75% of Christians have experienced coercion or manipulation in their church communities. His audience is anyone harmed by the Church, and anyone with ears to hear the Gospel as told by those who've been hurt.

[10:00] — Why Podcasting? More than convenience — podcasting allows for live dialogue and spontaneous vulnerability that writing simply can't capture. Paul describes it as closer to leading RCIA or a small group than publishing an article.

[13:00] — Is the Church Doing Podcasting Well? A candid take on the lay-driven nature of Catholic media — and the troubling amount of spiritually harmful content circulating under the Catholic label. Bad Catholic content isn't poorly produced; it's content that misrepresents God, misrepresents the Church's teaching, and coerces consciences.

[16:30] — Defining Spiritual Abuse Paul walks through the core definition: a pattern of coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context, using spiritual authority to control others. Key markers include claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, or using religious fear to manipulate behavior.

"If you have a podcast, you're putting yourself in a position of authority — and if you're using that to get people to change their behavior rather than to present the Gospel and give them space to wrestle with it, you've moved into spiritual coercion."

[22:00] — The Appeal of Surrender Many Catholics — perhaps all of us to some degree — are tempted to hand their freedom over to rules or authority figures. Paul reflects honestly on seeing this tendency in himself, and how mature conscience formation requires taking personal responsibility.

[25:00] — Father John's "Fenced Playground" Story Children in an unfenced playground huddle in fear; children in a fenced playground spread out freely. The insight: parameters don't restrict freedom — they create it. Religious structures, when used rightly, do the same.

[28:00] — Spiritual Warfare, Fear, and the Devil as Scapegoat Can spiritual warfare language become a bypass — a way to avoid personal responsibility? Paul draws on René Girard's scapegoat mechanism: using "the devil" to avoid accountability is the devil's playbook. The demonic is found in the scapegoat mechanism itself.

"If talking of the devil leads to scapegoating, it's harmful. If it leads us to actually work against abusive systems, that's a proper way to understand it."

[39:30] — Scripture, Tradition, and Experience in Tension Paul resists pitting lived experience against Scripture and Tradition — instead, he draws on Pope Francis' early Jesuit writing: realities are more important than ideas. Living in that tension, with expectation that the Holy Spirit will do something creative, is the work of synodality.

[43:00] — How Paul Measures Success Not downloads. Paul measures success by individual conversations — people who say, "You gave me the language to understand what happened to me," or "I finally don't feel alone."

[47:00] — "The Glory of God Is Man Fully Alive" Theosis — our divinization, our transformation into Christ — means being fully alive is giving God glory. This is not an intellectual endeavor. It is total personal transformation.

[48:30] — What Surrender Looks Like in Paul's Life Showing up in prayer as he actually is, not performing. Trusting his desires as the Lord moves through them — drawing on St. Ignatius' Discernment of Spirits: the good spirit moves those close to God through drawing and inspiration, not fear.

[51:00] — Is Spiritual Abuse Perennial or New? Perennial — but modern communications have dramatically amplified our capacity for harm. The response from Catholic Social Teaching is the virtue of solidarity: a personal commitment to human dignity and a social responsibility to dismantle structures of sin.

[55:30] — The Prophetic Act of Listening Father John argues the most prophetic witness the Church can offer right now is listening without agenda. Paul grounds this in Pope Francis' concept of accompaniment and Carl Rogers' person-centered counseling — empathy, genuineness, and unconditional positive regard create the very conditions where people naturally heal and grow.

ABOUT PAUL FAHEY

Paul Fahey is a limited licensed counselor in the state of Michigan and the host of the Third Space Podcast. A former Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish, Paul transitioned into counseling with a specialized focus on spiritual abuse, both individual experiences of it and the systemic structures that enable it. He creates workshops for church leaders on recognizing spiritually abusive systems and works individually with survivors of Church harm.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• The Third Space Podcast — Paul Fahey's podcast for those who've experienced harm in the Church
• Smart Catholics — Dominic Dusa's platform; co-host of the original Pope Francis Generation Podcast
• Where Peter Is — A Catholic blog where Paul has contributed writing
• Dr. Lisa Oakley — UK researcher on spiritual abuse in Christian communities
• René Girard — French philosopher; scapegoat mechanism and mimetic theory
• St. Ignatius of Loyola — Discernment of Spirits, the Spiritual Exercises
• Carl Rogers — Person-centered counseling; empathy, genuineness, unconditional positive regard
• Pope Francis — Evangelii Gaudium, synodality, accompaniment, "realities are more important than ideas"
• Catholic Social Teaching — Virtue of solidarity, structures of sin, preferential option for the poor

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"If you have a podcast, you're putting yourself in a position of authority — and if you're using that to get people to change their behavior rather than to present the Gospel and give them space to wrestle with it, you've moved into spiritual coercion." — Paul Fahey [16:30]

"Belonging comes first — before right belief and right behavior. If I make right belief the litmus test for belonging, I've undermined the Gospel." — Paul Fahey [55:30]

"If talking of the devil leads to scapegoating, it's harmful. If it leads us to actually work against abusive systems, that's a proper way to understand it." — Paul Fahey [28:00]

"The glory of God is man fully alive — and me being fully alive is me being transformed into Christ. This is not an intellectual endeavor. This is about total personal transformation." — Paul Fahey [47:00]

"You've given me the language to understand my own experiences. And now I don't feel alone in them." — A listener, as recalled by Paul Fahey [43:00]

"I still catch myself in prayer — performing. Not being able to show up as I am and let the Lord meet me there." — Paul Fahey [48:30]

"Anytime you hear anyone say 'this behavior is a mortal sin' — that is spiritually abusive. I can't possibly know the conscience of another person." — Paul Fahey [19:30]

"Perhaps the most prophetic witness the Church can give right now is the genuine art of listening — not to convince, not to point out flaws, but to listen without agenda." — Father John [55:30]

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Follow us on social media.

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback to podcast@desalesmedia.org.

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.  

What does it really mean to live the Gospel, not just inside church walls, but on the street corner, in the storefront, and in the lives of people the world has written off? In this powerful bonus episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich are joined by Father James O'Shea, a Passionist priest and co-founder of Reconnect, a community organization in Brooklyn that has spent over a decade transforming lives through employment, mentorship, and belonging. Father Jim shares why crossing the street, literally and figuratively, is the first and most essential act of discipleship. This conversation will challenge you, inspire you, and might just upend your narrative.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:

• "If you don't want to leave the block, then we transform the block." — Father Jim on the founding philosophy of Reconnect (00:03:30)

• How a simple basketball program at a public school became a window into the lives — and recurring tragedies — of young men in Bed-Stuy (00:08:00)
• Why moralizing with people goes nowhere, and what the church should do instead (00:09:30)
• The difference between "behave, believe, then belong" vs. leading with belonging — and why it matters (00:10:30)
• What the Passionists are, and how the charism of the Cross connects contemplation to solidarity with the suffering (00:14:30)
• Why Father Jim fell in love with Bedford-Stuyvesant the first Sunday he went there (00:18:00)
• The predictable, heartbreaking pattern he watched play out in young men's lives — and how Reconnect interrupts it (00:19:30)
• "The church is the only institution I see that really has the capacity to continually witness: you are worth us doing this because we know who you are." (00:43:00)
• Why human dignity as a concept may owe more to Christianity than most people realize — and what that means in the age of AI (00:48:30)
• The irreplaceable role of women religious in humanizing American culture (00:52:00)
• How the church should navigate controversial moral teachings while still leading with love (01:02:00)
• "I'm not going to pontificate about it until I hear people's stories." — Father Jim on listening before judging (01:14:30)
• Whether radical listening might be the defining prophetic witness the church is called to offer right now (01:08:30)
• Why listening is "a very dangerous enterprise" — and why that's exactly the point (01:13:00)

About Father Jim O'Shea

Father Jim O'Shea, CP, is a member of the Passionist Congregation and currently serves as Provincial of the Passionists' Holy Cross Province, based in Queens, New York. Ordained in 1989, Father Jim spent approximately 25 years in Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, where he earned a Master's in Social Work from Fordham University and became deeply involved in community organizing, affordable housing advocacy, and youth ministry. In 2010, he co-founded Reconnect, a social enterprise and mentorship program for young men in distressed communities. Reconnect is now based at Thomas Berry Place in Queens.

MEMORABLE QUOTES 

"If you don't want to leave the block, then we transform the block." — Father Jim O'Shea

"Moralizing with people is easy. But the legitimate question back to me is: what's your value add in my life?" — Father Jim O'Shea

"The church is the only institution I see that really has the capacity to continually witness: you are worth us doing this because we know who you are." — Father Jim O'Shea

"It's very hard to hate someone that you've really deeply listened to." — Father Jim O'Shea

"I'm not going to pontificate about it until I hear people's stories." — Father Jim O'Shea

"If you really believe that Jesus is alive in each and every single person, every single person is going to be an opportunity to hear God speak." — Father John Gribowich

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform

Follow us on social media

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality

In this bonus episode of Religion to Reality, Renée Roden, a freelance religion journalist and Catholic Worker community member, has an in-depth conversation about living faith in action. Renee shares her journey from theater student at Notre Dame to running a Catholic Worker house in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, while offering a thoughtful exploration of how Catholics can bridge the gap between sacramental life and works of mercy. This conversation challenges listeners to reconsider what it means to truly live out their faith beyond Sunday Mass.

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

[00:03:00] The Catholic Worker Movement Explained Renee provides an accessible introduction to the Catholic Worker movement, founded in the 1930s by Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin. She explains how Dorothy Day prayed for a way to unite her writing skills, love for the poor, and newfound Catholic faith—and the next day met Peter Maurin, who introduced her to Catholic social teaching. Within months, they launched The Catholic Worker newspaper (cleverly named to counter the communist Daily Worker), and the movement exploded from 2,500 copies to six-figure readership within three years. The movement centers on Houses of Hospitality, voluntary poverty, and practicing the corporal works of mercy.

[00:11:00] Navigating Political Division The conversation tackles how Catholics can remain faithful during politically charged times without getting distracted by national politics at the expense of local, concrete action. Renee explains Dorothy Day's anarchism: she marched for women's suffrage and was imprisoned for it, yet never cast a vote herself. Day believed the state always serves its own interests and those of corporations or elites. Rather than focusing on distant political figures we don't even know personally, the Catholic Worker approach asks: "How do I care for my neighbor right now?" This localized focus prevents us from treating national political disagreements as distractions from the immediate, joyful work we can do in our own communities.

[00:15:00] Personalism as a Third Way Drawing on philosopher Emmanuel Mounier's concept of personalism, Renee articulates how the Catholic Worker offers a political vision centered on human dignity and freedom—distinct from both individualistic capitalism and collectivist ideologies. She explains that personalism asks fundamental questions: "What causes a human person to flourish? Are our structures supporting a person's ability to seek the good?" This approach shifts the focus from abstract national policy debates to concrete encounters with neighbors at the local level, bringing politics back to its first principles.

[00:20:00] Voluntary Poverty and True Freedom Renee wrestles honestly with the challenging concept of voluntary poverty, sharing how her partner James once told her "voluntary poverty promotes community and is freeing"—which initially baffled her. She explains how it's not about deprivation but about answering the question: "Who do I depend on?" Rather than depending on personal wealth and self-sufficiency, voluntary poverty means bringing your needs to God and depending on community. It creates genuine relationships based on material need, not just emotional connection, making community more meaningful and human.

[00:27:00] The Eucharist and Works of Mercy Connection Father John and Renee explore the deep connection between sacramental life and active service, addressing why the discipleship study shows Catholics excelling at liturgical participation but struggling with consistent works of mercy. Renee discusses the liturgical movement's influence on Dorothy Day, particularly the understanding that the Eucharist contains a call to "go be Eucharist in the world." As Pope Francis teaches in The Joy of the Gospel, churches shouldn't serve material needs while neglecting spiritual needs—and vice versa. The goal is integration: there should be no division between "helpers" and "the helped." Father John adds that the Eucharist trains us to see beyond appearances—recognizing Christ both in consecrated bread and in the person on the street.

[00:36:00] Community Living: Ideals and Reality With refreshing honesty, Renee addresses the challenges of intentional community living, acknowledging that many Catholic Worker houses have struggled or failed. She contrasts Catholic Workers with Benedictine monks who have "a 1,300-year-old rule and two years of novitiate training"—clear structures and guardrails. Many Catholic Worker communities lack sufficient "clarification of thought" about what it means to be a Catholic Worker and what their goals are. Renee notes that the movement is thriving among families who practice hospitality in their homes, providing natural stability through marital commitment and intimacy. Her advice: start with friendship first, read Catholic Worker literature together with like-minded people, and focus on your neighborhood community rather than just who shares your household.

[00:43:00] Finding Your Catholic Worker Community Renee addresses young Catholics who discover Dorothy Day, get excited, but then feel disillusioned when they visit Catholic Worker houses that don't reflect the sacramental, orthodox Catholicism they value. She encourages them to seek out the many Catholic Worker communities that do have "a beautiful liturgical life" and are "on fire" with energy and commitment. The Catholic Worker website makes these communities easy to find. She also explains that Catholic Worker houses practice "radical welcome," which draws many wounded people who've never felt belonging elsewhere—whether rejected by church or society. This can create challenges, but also opportunities for dialogue and parish partnerships that bring new life to communities.

ABOUT RENEE RODEN

Renee Roden is a freelance religion journalist who writes for America Magazine and US Catholic. She had a book about Christian unity in Jerusalem published by Liturgical Press last June. Renee currently lives at a Catholic Worker house in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, with her partner James, where they practice hospitality and community living.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• America Magazine - Catholic publication Renee writes for
• US Catholic - Another outlet for Renee's journalism
• Liturgical Press – Who published Renee's book
• Notre Dame Magazine - Where Renee wrote an article on the Catholic Worker
• How to Do Nothing by Jenny Odell - Book discussing intentional communities and their challenges
• The Catholic Worker website - For finding Catholic Worker communities
• Rerum Novarum (Pope Leo XIII) and Quadragesimo Anno - Foundational Catholic social teaching encyclicals
• The Long Loneliness - Dorothy Day's autobiography
• The Joy of the Gospel - Pope Francis's teaching on integrated service

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"If we believe that we are part of the mystical body of Christ, well then, all of our institutions ought to reflect that fact that we have this great dignity as Christ's body."

"Politics essentially is how I treat my neighbor and how me and my neighbors work together."

"Voluntary poverty is freeing... It shifts who you depend on—do I depend on myself and my capabilities, or do I depend on God?"

"The point of the works of mercy is we're all supposed to be doing it for each other. We all come into this world needing to be fed."

"How powerful would our witness be to the world if Catholics lived that way? Where it's like, they look at that person and they see God, they see Christ."

"Community life is hard... but you have a 1,300-year-old rule. Catholic Workers don't have enough clarification of what it means to even be a Catholic Worker."

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Follow us on social media.

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback to podcast@desalesmedia.org.

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

What does it truly mean to live out your Catholic faith in everyday life? In this compelling conversation, Peter Andrastek, Senior Consultant at The Evangelical Catholic, challenges the common misconception that holiness means becoming more like a priest, nun, or monk. Instead, he reveals how ordinary Catholics are called to extraordinary holiness right where they are—in their workplaces, families, and communities.

Discover why most parishes aren't equipped to form laypeople for their unique vocation, how the distinction between "ministry" and "apostolate" changes everything, and what practical steps you can take today to become salt, light, and leaven in your corner of the world. This bonus episode offers a refreshing vision of Catholic life that goes far beyond Sunday Mass attendance.

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:

Understanding Ministry vs. Apostolate (02:40)

• Why most Catholics misunderstand their true vocation
• How ministry flows from holy orders to build up the church
• Why apostolate is the specific calling of the laity to sanctify the world
• The difference between "ad intra" (within the church) and "ad extra" (to the world)

What Sanctifying the World Actually Looks Like (09:00)

• A CEO who makes breakfast for colleagues every Friday morning
• Why holiness is "extraordinary love lived in the ordinary"
• How personal transformation radiates mysteriously to others
• The "apologetics of meaning" that makes people ask, "What's different about your life?"

The Skills vs. Holiness Debate (16:00)

• Why evangelization training without personal holiness is manipulation
• The role of human formation: "Don't be weird"
• How character and personality can facilitate or impede the gospel
• Why we can't "train people into zeal"

The Seminary Challenge (20:00)

• Young seminarians who want to be "weird" and countercultural
• The attraction to smells, bells, and traditional liturgy
• Why liturgical emphasis alone won't reach most people
• Navigating between authenticity and accessibility

Pastoral Principles That Work (24:00)

• "That which is received is received according to the disposition of the receiver"
• Working within your circle of influence vs. circle of concern
• Starting with a few well-disposed people rather than massive programs
• The mustard seed principle of parish renewal

A Practical Starting Point (28:30)

• Begin with 3-5 people you'd enjoy growing with
• Focus on three topics: Life, Growth, and Mission
• Keep 3-5 names on a prayer list and check in regularly
• Why most Catholics think holiness means spending more time at parish

The Real Models of Holiness (33:00)

• Fr. John's confession: "My heroes are people raising eight kids, not priests and monks"
• Why religious life is "institutionalized" and doesn't require the same daily sacrifice
• The sublimity of the lay vocation that's meant to "pass unnoticed"
• Why 5,000 people attend certain funerals

The Airline Pilot's Apostolate (43:00)

• A major airline pilot who made his cockpit his mission field
• Intentional conversations leading to broken marriages being healed
• "Define, Plan, Act" exercise for getting specific about your apostolate
• Why apostolate is "almost more about you than other people"

Something's Got to Give (37:00)

• Every pope since Vatican II has called for lay renewal
• Why we're living in an exciting, adventurous time
• The problem: parishes don't have imagination for lay vocation
• "If you don't know what it looks like, you can't give formation for it"

ABOUT PETER ANDRASTEK

Peter Andrastek is the Senior Consultant at the Evangelical Catholic, a private nonprofit based in Madison, Wisconsin, that forms and equips Catholics to live out the Great Commission. Since joining EC, Peter has specialized in experimental initiatives, including seminary formation, workshops for priests, and developing curriculum for lay apostolate. He's been married for 20 years and has eight children ranging from a college sophomore to a four-year-old.

Connect with the Evangelical Catholic and learn more about their formation programs at

https://evangelicalcatholic.org

MEMORABLE QUOTES

On the Lay Vocation:

"The life of an ordinary Christian is materially just the life of an ordinary person, but transformed from the inside by divine love... somehow mysteriously, without anything being different, somehow mysteriously everything is different." (09:30)

On Evangelization:

"If we reduce evangelization to something you can just train someone for, just a set of skills or a technique for saying something, we reduce evangelization to the manipulation of human techniques." (16:45)

On Starting Small:

"If you're distracted by all the things and all the people who are in your circle of concern, but not in your circle of influence, you are not going to be effective. Instead, you have to focus on a few, just like Jesus on a mustard seed." (25:30)

On Holiness and Apostolate:

"At the end of the day, holiness and apostolate are the same reality. You know, we distinguish them conceptually, but at the end of the day... when I am trying to be more cheerful at home as an act of love for my wife and kids, am I growing in holiness or am I being more apostolic with them? Why would there be a difference?" (47:00)

Fr. John's Perspective:

"My heroes are not priests, nuns, and monks. My models of holiness actually are the people who are raising the eight kids and who are juggling so many different responsibilities and living tremendous lives of sacrifice." (33:15)

CONNECT WITH US

• Visit our website: religiontoreality.org
• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Follow us on social media
• Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!
• Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality

What if the struggle in your spiritual life isn't a sign of failure, but proof that your relationship with God matters deeply? In this intimate conversation, spiritual director Mary Glowaski reveals how spiritual direction creates sacred space for encountering God's love in unexpected ways, especially in our deepest struggles and shame.

Mary shares her unexpected call to spiritual direction, the profound difference between counseling and spiritual companionship, and why being harsh with ourselves blocks us from experiencing God's unconditional love. If you've ever wondered what spiritual direction actually is, how to find a director, or whether it's right for you, this episode offers compassionate wisdom from someone who has walked with countless souls through their most sacred stories.

Discover why spiritual direction isn't about getting answers; it's about learning to see yourself and others through God's eyes of infinite compassion.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

• Spiritual direction focuses on your relationship with God, not on finding immediate answers or solutions
• The gentleness in spiritual direction mirrors God's gentle work in our lives—transformation doesn't need to be forced
• Many people struggle not with feeling unloved, but with seeing themselves as lovable
• Spiritual directors are formed professionals who create covenantal (not just confidential) sacred space
• The ego is sneaky—spiritual direction helps us get out of our own way so God can work
• Self-compassion unlocks our ability to show genuine compassion to others
• The struggles we face are often universal human experiences, not signs of unique brokenness
• Anthropomorphizing God (making God in our image) prevents us from becoming reflections of God's image

[00:00] Introduction and welcome

[00:36] Mary's background: From social work to spiritual direction

• Family life and career journey
• The unexpected call while driving past University of St. Francis

[02:00] What is spiritual direction?

• Difference from counseling and therapy
• Responding to divine invitation
• Seeing all of life as sacred

[05:00] The focus on relationship with God, not human guidance

• Trusting God's work in the directee's life
• Being a conduit rather than an answer-giver

[06:00] Common misconceptions about spiritual direction

• Ancient practice that was lost and rediscovered
• Not just for clergy—relatively new widespread practice (last 60 years)

[08:00] Suspending what we think we know

• Trusting the directee's experience of God
• The privilege of witnessing sacred stories

[09:00] The gentle stance of spiritual direction

• Creating peaceful, unhurried space
• Cultural addiction to productivity vs. spiritual receptivity

[10:43] The struggle with self-love and feeling lovable

• How harshness toward ourselves blocks God's love
• Knowing whose we are, not just who we are

[12:00] Spiritual direction vs. counseling vs. mentoring

• How to discern what someone needs
• Staying faithful to the original relationship

[14:00] How spiritual direction changes the director

• Being humbled by directees' courage
• Witnessing God's work in immeasurable ways
• Holding stories in a covenantal way

[16:00] The unique interior access of spiritual direction

• Seeing growth that spouses may not even see
• The hidden nature of spiritual transformation

[18:00] Humility as foundational for spiritual directors

• Praying "get me out of the way"
• Relief in knowing it's not about you

[20:00] Stories of growth and transformation

• Learning to stop making God in our image
• The relief of self-compassion
• Journey toward forgiveness of grievous harm

[24:00] What a typical session looks like

• Monthly hour-long meetings
• Inviting the Holy Spirit's presence
• No homework—trusting God's work between sessions

[27:00] Meeting with other spiritual directors

• Peer supervision and ethical discussions
• Importance of receiving spiritual direction yourself

[29:00] How to find a spiritual director

• Spiritual Directors International directory
• Local ecumenical directories forming
• Challenges in finding the right fit

[31:45] Does a spiritual director need to be clergy?

• Importance of proper formation over ordained status
• Warning about untrained "spiritual directors"

[33:45] What Mary wishes people knew

• How deeply loved they are by God
• Freedom from fear of God's judgment
• Invitation to be kinder to themselves

[35:00] Practices that support spiritual direction

• Correlation with Mass attendance and prayer
• Living an integrated life vs. compartmentalized "spiritual life"

[36:45] The connective tissue: Awareness of mystery

• Staying rooted when life is overwhelming
• Relieved of the burden to judge everything

[38:00] Being present vs. letting ego take over

• When to speak up for justice
• Wrestling with God like Jacob

[40:00] Christ's easy yoke vs. spiritual struggle

• Struggle shows the relationship is valued
• Keeping hearts open despite challenges

[42:00] Universal human struggles

• Our stories are the same as Scripture's stories
• Sharing in goodness, not just shame

[44:00] True empathy: "I could be there"

• Recognizing our capability for the same mistakes
• Freedom from judgment

[45:00] Self-compassion and taking responsibility

• Practicing compassion on others first
• Not projecting our inner state onto others

[47:00] Looking for witnesses

• Finding people who embody what we need
• Mary's experience watching communion after her husband's death
• Choosing what and who we look to

About Mary Glowaski

Mary Glowaski is a spiritual director, pastoral counselor, and former social worker who spent 20 years working in victim assistance, pastoral care, mediation, and crisis intervention for the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend. After receiving her master's in pastoral theology and completing three years of Ignatian formation, Mary has dedicated her life to creating sacred space where people can encounter God's love and gentleness. A mother of two sons, mother-in-law to two daughters-in-law, and grandmother to three, Mary brings deep wisdom, humility, and compassion to her ministry of spiritual companionship.

Resources Mentioned

• Spiritual Directors International - Directory to find spiritual directors
• Ignatian spirituality - Formation tradition rooted in St. Ignatius of Loyola
• Northern Indiana Spiritual Directors - New ecumenical directory forming
• Centering prayer - Contemplative prayer practice discussed in sessions

Memorable Quotes

"Spiritual direction is really about looking at the whole... These moments in someone's lives, even the things that we struggle with, there's sacredness there."

"Too often, I find people that it's not that they don't feel loved, they don't see themselves as lovable."

"Before someone comes to me, I pray, get me out of the way. Really, who cares what I think? It doesn't matter."

"We spend so much time anthropomorphizing God, making God into us instead of making me an image, a reflection of God's image."

"When a relationship with God is a struggle, I say thank you, because that says to me that it's of value."

"Given the right circumstances, I'm certainly capable of doing the same thing. And so that just really relieves me of like, I don't need to judge it because I could be there."

"We can take a deep breath and begin again."

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Follow us on social media.

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback to podcast@desalesmedia.org. 

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

In this bonus episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich sit down with Friar Rick Riccioli, a Franciscan Friar Conventual and parish pastor in Brooklyn, for a wide-ranging and deeply honest conversation about what evangelization looks like in the real world today.

With over four decades of religious life and pastoral ministry across Canada and the United States, Friar Rick reflects on the tension between radical welcome and Gospel truth, the difference between accompanying people and trying to control their faith journey, and how parishes can become places of genuine belonging without losing their Catholic identity.

From Alpha and Divine Renovation to funerals, young adults, parish leadership, and the quiet heartbreak of parents whose children have left the Church, this episode offers practical wisdom, lived experience, and Franciscan humility for anyone who cares about the future of parish life.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

• What authentic accompaniment really means—and what it is not
• Why evangelization begins with relationship, listening, and trust
• The difference between belonging, believing, and behaving
• Lessons learned from Francis Corps and forming young adults in faith and service
• How Alpha helps build a culture of hospitality, not just a program
• Why funerals may be the Church’s most powerful evangelization moments
• The quiet pain of parents whose children have drifted from the faith
• Challenges of leading parishes with aging infrastructure and changing demographics
• Why empowering the laity is essential to the Church’s missionary future
• What young adults are actually looking for in the Church today

[00:00] Introduction & Friar Rick's Background

• Meet Friar Rick Riccioli: 42 years as a Franciscan, serving across Canada and the U.S.
• Current ministry at Most Holy Trinity-St. Mary's Parish in Williamsburg, Brooklyn
• Journey from Montreal to Toronto to Syracuse, now leading urban parish renewal

[03:00] Francis Corps: Faith Formation Through Service

• Year-long volunteer program combining service and intentional faith formation
• How the program transforms both social justice warriors and traditional Catholics
• The power of living in community: "What did you do to my daughter?"
• Learning to balance individual convictions with communal responsibility

[06:00] Bridging the Gap: Social Justice vs. Church Connection

• Meeting people where they are: from soup kitchen volunteers to devoted parishioners
• The importance of being "truly Catholic and truly human"
• Creating space for questions and doubts without judgment
• Why building relationships matters more than having all the answers

[11:00] Creative Outreach: The 11:11 Service

• Creating a non-Mass Sunday service for those not ready for traditional liturgy
• "Come for coffee, stay for supper": Building pathways to the Eucharist
• Navigating the challenges of radical welcome in practice
• When soup kitchen patrons become part of your worshiping community

[13:00] The Art of Accompaniment

• How much should we try to change people vs. meet them where they are?
• Avoiding the trap of "I'm going to hold your hand and pull you where I want you to go"
• Case studies: Walking with LGBTQ+ parishioners, families with trans children
• Everyone's path to holiness requires listening to God, not just conforming to prescriptions

[20:00] Copyright & Church Teaching: Holding Truth with Humility

• Balancing absolute truth with pastoral reality
• "We may not always be the perfect vehicles for interpreting revelation"
• The Franciscan approach: humility, service, and kinship first
• Treating every person as family, not a stranger you're ministering to

[22:00] Leading Parishes Through Cultural Change

• Working with aging congregations while reaching young adults
• The heartbreak of parents whose children left the faith
• Why elderly parishioners show up to rock concerts: they want the church to succeed
• Technology and personal follow-up: staying connected after weddings and funerals

[31:00] The Power of Funerals in Evangelization

• "I've gotten more people back to church through funerals than any program"
• Meeting families in vulnerability without judgment
• Why personalization matters: showing up as fully human and fully Catholic
• The challenge of follow-up when there's no guarantee of continued connection

[42:00] Reimagining Church Buildings & Sacred Space

• Should we remove pews and make churches multi-purpose?
• What young adults actually want: transcendence AND welcome
• The Friendsgiving dinner in the main aisle: powerful or problematic?
• Balancing sacred space with flexibility for community building

[46:00] The Wedding Dilemma: Rules vs. Relationship

• When couples want a Catholic wedding but don't attend church
• The cost of hospitality: investing in people who might disappoint you
• Why starting with conversation beats starting with requirements
• "I don't want one more story of the priest being mean"

[55:00] The Young Adult Paradox

• Why young adults are filling the 12:30 Mass but not joining small groups
• "I don't need you for my social life"
• Are they just punching in and out, or is something deeper happening?
• The gym membership analogy: getting what they need without full community engagement

[01:00:00] What Is Community, Really?

• How social media has transformed our understanding of belonging
• "Unless you're following someone to the bathroom they stunk up"—real community requires friction
• The New York City challenge: nobody plans to stay forever
• Peeling away layers: beneath the Instagram lives are real struggles

[01:08:00] The Uncomfortable Path to Vocation

• We've failed to convince people that discomfort leads to growth
• "How you come out of yourself is by entering uncomfortable places"
• Making people comfortable vs. helping them be comfortable with discomfort
• The original sin of avoiding "the other"

[01:11:00] Final Thoughts

• The importance of helping people engage with those different from themselves
• Trusting the Holy Spirit's work even when we can't measure results
• Why success in ministry can't be quantified like a marketing campaign
• The ongoing journey of parish transformation

ABOUT FRIAR RICK RICCIOLI

Friar Rick Riccioli is a Franciscan Friar Conventual and parish pastor in Brooklyn with over four decades of religious life and pastoral ministry across Canada and the United States.

MEMORABLE QUOTES

“Everyone is welcome—but not everyone’s next step is the same.”

“Evangelization happens at the speed of relationship.”

“You can’t drag people into holiness. You have to walk with them.”

“The Church’s greatest moments of evangelization often happen at funerals.”

CONNECT WITH US

• Visit our website: religiontoreality.org
• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Follow us on social media
• Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!
• Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

What does authentic prayer look like in the digital age? Monica Martinez, Parish Lead at Hallow, shares her powerful journey from a teenager who stopped going to Mass to becoming a passionate advocate for healing through faith. In this deeply personal conversation, Monica discusses how prayer evolved from a childhood habit into a transformative relationship, why apps like Hallow are helping people discover faith safely, and how the modern Church can create genuine spaces for encounter. Whether you're exploring prayer for the first time or seeking to deepen your spiritual life, this episode offers practical wisdom on listening, silence, and meeting God in the everyday moments.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

Monica's Journey to Healing

• How family struggles with divorce and alcoholism sparked a lifelong search for healing (2:00)
• The pivotal 21st birthday moment that changed everything (4:00)
• Why healing isn't a one-time event but a continuous journey

Prayer Apps and Digital Spirituality

• Why 43% of Hallow users aren't Catholic—and what that reveals about modern faith seeking (6:00)
• The "safety factor" of digital prayer: exploring faith without vulnerability (7:00)
• Balancing prayer apps with authentic relationship: avoiding the "streak" mentality (10:00)

The Evolution of Prayer

• From rote prayers to relationship: Monica's transformation (22:00)
• The freedom that comes from trusting the Holy Spirit (21:00)
• Why "Come Holy Spirit" is about perception, not summoning (31:00)

Listening in Prayer

• What makes someone a good listener in prayer—and in life (26:00)
• The challenge and importance of silence (28:00)
• Practical advice for entering contemplative prayer (30:00)

Prayer Styles and Traditions

• Why different forms of prayer reflect God's creativity (35:00)
• The unity found in memorized prayers across cultures (36:00)
• When to use rote prayers vs. spontaneous meditation (37:00)

Modern Evangelization

• Creating welcoming parish environments post-COVID (39:00)
• Why the Eucharist might not be the best first entry point (42:00)
• The importance of accompanying seekers with gentleness (47:00)
• Learning to meet people where they are, not where we think they should be (50:00)

About Monica Martinez

Monica Martinez serves as Parish Lead at Hallow, the #1 Catholic prayer app, where she partners with parishes across the country to deepen prayer lives. Previously, she worked as Associate Director for Alpha in the Catholic context and served in diocesan ministry. Monica's work is driven by her personal experience of healing through faith, particularly her journey through family struggles with divorce and alcoholism. She travels nationally leading missions focused on prayer, evangelization, and creating spaces for authentic conversation about faith.

Memorable Quotes

On Prayer and Relationship:

"Prayer is not so much something I'm doing, it's something I'm allowing to be done to me. When I'm tired, it's not that I'm too tired to pray—I need you, Lord, to help me rest." — Monica Martinez (23:00)

On Digital Tools:

"You don't need an app to pray, but you also don't need a trainer to get fit. But it really does help to learn the right form and not hurt yourself." —Monica Martinez (7:00)

On Healing:

"When you encounter that relationship, when you encounter healing, there's nothing left for you to do but help other people encounter the same." —Monica Martinez (2:00)

On Silence:

"Silence isn't about trying to get absolute quiet. It's about being attentive to the sounds you're missing—in your heart, mind, and spirit." —Father John Gribowich (29:00)

On the Eucharist:

"It's one thing to read about an amazing friend. It's another thing to encounter them—see how funny they are, how wonderful. That's what people long for with the Eucharist." —Monica Martinez (45:00)

Resources Mentioned

Prayer & Spirituality:

• Hallow Prayer App – https://hallow.com
• Alpha in the Catholic Context – https://alphausa.org/catholic
• Encounter Ministries – https://encounterministries.us
• NET Ministries – https://www.netusa.org
• Rescue Project – https://rescueproject.us
• Eucharistic Revival – https://eucharisticrevival.org

Scripture Referenced:

• Romans 8:26 - "The Spirit comes to aid our weakness; we do not know how to pray as we ought"
• Gospel of the Road to Emmaus (Luke 24)
• Lasallian Prayer - "Let us remember we are in the holy presence of God"

Spiritual Teachers Mentioned:

• St. Ignatius of Loyola (on consolation and desolation)
• St. Francis of Assisi
• Father James Mallon
• Christopher West (Theology of the Body)
• Wayne Dyer

Research & Studies:

• Pew Research on Catholic belief in the Real Presence
• Vinea Research follow-up study on Catholic Belief in the Real Presence
• CARA Research on Eucharistic understanding
• Psychology Today study on listening retention

Connect With Us

• Visit our website: religiontoreality.org
• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Follow us on social media
• Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!
• Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

In this bonus episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich sit down with Catholic educator and mindfulness teacher, Kathy Lorentz, to explore how prayer is far more than just words. It's about cultivating awareness of God's presence throughout every moment of our lives.

Kathy shares her journey from playing the Blessed Mother in a touring play at age 16 to becoming a theology teacher who works with students from preschool through adulthood. Her approach to prayer challenges traditional notions, revealing how attention, gratitude, and presence can transform mundane moments into sacred encounters.

Listen now to discover how you can develop a deeper prayer life without adding more to your to-do list.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

The Nature of Prayer and Attention (03:00-09:00)

• Why prayer isn't just an activity but an awareness of God's presence
• The profound connection between attention and prayer: "Attention taken to its highest degree is the same thing as prayer" (Simone Weil)
• How attention works like a spotlight—you can only focus on one thing at a time
• Understanding that "attention is a muscle" that strengthens with practice

Navigating the Digital Age Mindfully (09:00-12:00)

• Practical strategies for teaching high school students to manage digital distractions
• The importance of turning off notifications and using "do not disturb" mode intentionally
• Helping students recognize the preciousness of time through journaling their digital habits
• How to be fully present whether in prayer or conversation

Prayer Practices for Everyday Life (12:00-19:00)

• Using gratitude as a form of prayer—finding three or four meaningful moments each day
• The comfort and power of repetitive prayers like the Hail Mary (Kathy prays it up to 50 times daily)
• Creating "mindfulness bells" throughout your day—doorways, meals, car rides as prayer opportunities
• Prayer while driving past struggling communities: holding people in compassionate love

The Importance of Intentional Prayer Time (20:00-23:00)

• Why setting aside dedicated time for prayer matters, even when we know life itself is prayer
• The transformative power of beginning your day with five minutes of prayer
• How communal and structured prayer (like in monasteries) can form us
• The blessing of working in theology education, where prayer is built into the day

Praying for Others (23:00-26:00)

• What it means to hold people in prayer without imposing our will
• Why Kathy rarely prays for specific outcomes: "I don't have the wisdom to know what a suffering someone needs."
• The sacredness of simply blessing others: "God bless you. May God bless you."
• Understanding your presence itself as prayer when you carry the Holy Spirit with you

Misconceptions About Prayer (26:00-29:00)

• How gratitude, acts of service, and caring attention are all forms of prayer
• Meister Eckhart's wisdom: "If all you said was thank you, that would be prayer enough."
• Why telling young people “You don't get to choose" whether you're spiritual—it's part of being human
• Moving beyond seeing prayer as separate from the rest of life toward integration

Cultivating Awe and Wonder (29:00-34:00)

• How science and spirit aren't opposites—the experience of awe bridges both
• Dacher Keltner's research: we need 50 experiences of awe per day, not just 2-3
• Using "awe workshops" to help students recognize sacred moments
• Einstein's wisdom: "Never lose a holy curiosity. Don't stop to marvel."
• Recognizing all of life as holy, including ourselves

The Power of the Rosary (35:00-37:00)

• Why the rosary was the most cited prayer practice for impacting faith in DeSales Media's discipleship study
• The rosary as a grounding, multisensory prayer experience
• Kathy's advice: "Just say it, and let it be revealed to you" rather than overthinking the meaning

Generational Changes and COVID's Impact (37:00-41:00)

• How some generations chose not to pass on faith traditions to their children
• The primary reason families choose Catholic schools today: quality education (faith formation is 4th or 5th)
• How the COVID pandemic awakened people to the importance of gathering in community
• Hope that the Holy Spirit is calling us to new ways of praying and being church together

The Practice of Listening (41:00-42:00)

• Why listening keeps emerging as the key spiritual practice
• How listening and attention are completely tied together
• Setting aside time to be still and listen as essential prayer

Meet Our Guest

Kathy Lorentz is a Catholic educator with extensive experience teaching from preschool through adult education. She currently teaches theology at a Catholic high school, where she also serves as a counselor specializing in mindfulness and contemplative practices.

Kathy's faith journey began at age 16 when she was invited to play the Blessed Mother in a touring production across California and Nevada, an experience that deeply shaped her devotion to Mary. Kathy also has a background in marriage and family counseling, compassion work, and inter-religious dialogue.

As a mother of five adult sons, Kathy teaches a class called "Mindfulness in the Contemplative Tradition" and has taught "Prayer and Spirituality" to thousands of high school students over 15 years. She works with Sunday to Sunday and is passionate about helping people discover prayer as an integrated way of being rather than just an activity.

Memorable Quotes

"Let us remember that we are in the holy presence of God—for me, that is everything. It's not as if words need to be said, it's more a sense of being, of being aware of the presence that we exist in." — Kathy Lorentz

"Attention taken to its highest degree is the same thing as prayer." — Simone Weil (quoted by Kathy)

"Attention is a muscle, and the more we practice—with prayer, beginning with taking a deep breath and just taking time to focus on the fact that you are breathing—is a way of practicing to increase your muscle of attention." — Kathy Lorentz

"I believe that what we began with—remembering that we are in the holy presence of God—the awareness of the presence of God will help us know that we are not alone." — Kathy Lorentz

"One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery each day. Never lose a holy curiosity. Don't stop to marvel." — Albert Einstein

"Even if all you said was thank you, that would be prayer enough." — Meister Eckhart

Resources Mentioned

Books & Authors:

• Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh
• Works by Simone Weil
• Works by Meister Eckhart
• Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life by Dacher Keltner (UC Berkeley)
• Writings of Albert Einstein

Organizations & Movements:

• Sunday to Sunday ministry
• De La Salle Christian Brothers (Lasallian schools)
• Thich Nhat Hanh's community/sangha
• Lourdes pilgrimage site

Concepts & Practices:

• Mindfulness in the Contemplative Tradition
• Self-compassion practices
• Gratitude journaling
• The Rosary and Hail Mary prayer
• Mindfulness bells
• Awe workshops
• Digital wellness and attention management

Connect With Us

• Visit our website: religiontoreality.org
• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Follow us on social media
• Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!
• Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

What does it really mean to live an integrated faith life? In this powerful bonus episode, Father John Gribowich sits down with Cindy Black, a 26-year veteran of Catholic ministry, for an intimate conversation about discovering God in unexpected places and people.

Cindy shares her compelling journey from a "porta crib Catholic" who rarely attended Mass to becoming a passionate minister serving in youth ministry, diocesan leadership, Catholic radio, and parish evangelization. But this isn't just another conversion story, it's a profound exploration of how God shows up in bar conversations with atheists, friendships with those the church has wounded, and the sacred space of simply listening without agenda.

Through raw honesty and vulnerability, Cindy and Father John tackle the messy realities of ministry today moving beyond "winning arguments" to genuine encounter, and recognizing that every person, regardless of their beliefs or lifestyle, reveals something about the mystery of God's love.

If you've ever felt that your strongest encounters with God happened outside traditional church settings, or if you're wrestling with how to authentically love people the church has marginalized, this conversation will resonate deeply.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

Finding Faith Through Witness (0:00 - 7:00)

• Cindy's journey from occasional Mass attendance to active faith
• The transformative influence of her Catholic grandparents
• How her grandparents embodied Theology of the Body before it was taught
• The moment she encountered God's love while holding her newborn daughter

From Relational Ministry to Radical Love (7:00 - 14:00)

• The Christ Renew His Parish retreat that changed everything
• Moving beyond "relational ministry with an ulterior motive"
• Understanding that truth isn't moral ideals—it's a Person whose identity is love
• Encountering God through unexpected friendships at a bar

God in the Margins (14:00 - 22:00)

• Father John's reflection on the Eucharist as lens for seeing God everywhere
• Why the strongest encounters with God often happen outside church structures
• The sacredness of face-to-face conversation in a dehumanized world
• Suffering as the great unifier across political and religious divides

Accompaniment Over Conversion (22:00 - 31:00)

• Moving from "winning arguments" to walking alongside people
• The complex pastoral situation of accompanying a trans individual seeking baptism
• What baptism really means when we don't fully understand how grace works
• Simone Weil's paradox: refusing baptism to avoid separating herself from others

Formation as Transformation (31:00 - 40:00)

• What faith formation really means (hint: it's not just theology classes)
• Avoiding the "consumer Catholic" trap
• Why the disciples didn't need seminary degrees to transform the world
• Interior integration versus compartmentalization

The Art of Accompaniment (40:00 - 52:00)

• Pope Francis's call to "remove our sandals at the sacredness of the other"
• How a barber brought four people to faith this year
• Treating every interaction—even with store clerks—as eternal encounter
• The prophetic practice of listening without agenda

Meet Our Guest

Cindy Black has served in Catholic ministry for 26 years across multiple roles including youth ministry director, diocesan director of youth and young adult ministry (9 years), Catholic radio station team member (8 years), and currently serves in the Office of Evangelization at her home parish in Indiana. She specializes in accompanying those becoming Catholic and teaches Theology of the Body. Cindy is known for her radical openness to encountering God in unexpected people and places, and her commitment to witnessing God's love without judgment or agenda.

Memorable Quotes

"The truth isn't a set of moral ideals. The truth is a person whose identity is love." - Cindy Black

"If every relationship and every encounter I want what's best for the person in front of me that's made in the image and likeness of God, whether they believe it or not, or believe in God or not... the world would be transformed." - Cindy Black

"God is either everything, Christ is either everything or he is nothing." - Father John

"My job in ministry is to be witnesses... and to not be an obstacle to get in the way of what the Lord wants to do in somebody." - Cindy Black

"The most prophetic way to live the Christian life in the context we're living in today is to radically listen without agenda when we encounter people." - Father John

"We've forgotten that we belong to each other." - Mother Teresa (quoted by Cindy)

"Modern man listens more to witnesses than teachers. And if we listen to teachers, it's because they're first witnesses." - Pope Paul VI (quoted by Cindy)

Resources Mentioned

Books & Teachings

• Pope Francis: The Joy of the Gospel (Evangelii Gaudium) - Essential reading on the art of accompaniment and removing our sandals at the sacredness of the other
• St. Augustine: Confessions - Classic spiritual autobiography referenced as teaching resource
• St. Thomas Aquinas - Referenced as theological teaching resource
• Theology of the Body (Pope John Paul II) - Teaching framework Cindy uses, exemplified by her grandparents

Catholic Programs

• Christ Renews His Parish - Parish-based retreat program that catalyzed Cindy's deep encounter with God
• RCIA/OCIA - Traditional terminology for "Becoming Catholic" program
• "Becoming Catholic" - Cindy's parish's accessible name for the initiation process

Key People Mentioned

• Dave Plisky - Religion to Reality host
• Michael Dopp - Cindy's colleague who teaches on evangelization
• Pope Paul VI - Quoted: "Modern man listens more to witnesses than teachers"
• Mother Teresa - Quoted on remembering we belong to each other
• St. Vincent de Paul - Parish patron; quoted: "It's not enough if I love God, if my neighbor doesn't also love him"
• Simone Weil - 20th century mystic who chose not to be baptized to avoid separation from others

Theological Concepts

• Original sin as "original brokenness"
• The Trinity as mutual self-giving love
• Sacramental worldview
• Interior integration vs. compartmentalization
• The four pillars of discipleship from Acts of the Apostles: intimacy with God (prayer), worship, formation, and community

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

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Have a listen to this teaser to hear a quick montage of our favorite topic revealed to us throughout the season.

See you for Season Two in 2026!

Quick Summary

In this powerful season finale of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich reflect on their journey through over two dozen interviews, distilling the most transformative lessons about living an integrated spiritual life. They explore why listening, not activism, may be the most prophetic witness the Church can offer today, challenge traditional clericalism from surprising angles, and discover that belonging must come before belief. Through conversations with Stephen White, Fr. Thomas Gaunt, and Paul Fahey, this episode reveals how authentic relationships, radical listening, and the sacramental worldview can transform both individual lives and Church communities.

In This Episode, We Explore:

The Art of Radical Listening (4:00)

• Why listening is the highest form of paying attention and waiting for God
• The difference between productive action and contemplative discernment
• How the spirit of Advent shapes authentic spiritual practice

Discipleship vs. Activism (6:30)

• The dangerous professionalization of Church work
• Why doing "Catholic things" doesn't automatically equal discipleship
• How the division between clergy and laity undermines the baptismal call

Clericalism from the Bottom Up (8:00)

• Steven White's provocative insight: laity share responsibility for clericalism
• The transactional spirituality that's persisted for 1,500+ years
• Why waiting for bishops to fix problems is itself a form of clericalism

The Fluidity of Roles (12:00)

• Moving beyond rigid categories while honoring the sacramental priesthood
• How effective preaching happens beyond ordination
• Creating healthy tension between structure and Spirit

Research as Sacred Listening (20:00)

• Fr. Thomas Gaunt on CARA's agenda-free approach to Church research
• Why Sunday Mass attendance isn't the only measure of active faith
• The surprising power of baptism to create lifelong belonging

The Indelible Mark of Baptism (25:00)

• Why does baptizing infants offer a "container" for spiritual growth
• How baptism creates belonging regardless of church participation
• The beauty of unconditional ecclesial presence

Belonging Before Belief (33:00)

• Paul Fahey's transformative principle: belonging comes first
• Why does making right belief the litmus test undermine the gospel
• Carl Rogers meets Catholic theology: empathy, genuineness, and unconditional love

Seven Themes That Emerged This Season (38:00)

• Living an integrated (not compartmentalized) life
• Embracing a sacramental worldview
• Authentic relationship over agenda
• The centrality of community
• Trust as the foundation for formation
• Formation beyond catechesis
• The sacred practice of discernment and listening

Meet Our Guests

Stephen White - Executive Director of the Catholic Project at Catholic University of America. Steven brings critical insights on clericalism, the professionalization of discipleship, and lay responsibility in Church renewal.

Fr. Thomas Gaunt, SJ - Executive Director of the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University. With over 40 years as a Jesuit priest, Fr. Tom shares how agenda-free research reveals unexpected truths about Catholic belonging.

Paul Fahey - Limited Licensed Professional Counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. Paul introduces the revolutionary idea that belonging must precede belief and explains how person-centered counseling aligns perfectly with Catholic anthropology.

Memorable Quotes

"If I make right belief or right behavior the litmus test for belonging, I've undermined the gospel." - Paul Fahey

"It's very hard these days to tell the difference between discipleship and activism." - Stephen White

"Listening is everything. I think it may sound frustrating for some people because it's like, well if you just listen, then no one ever does anything. But listening is part of paying attention—waiting for God to reveal something greater than if you were just jumping in trying to fix something." - Father John Gribowich

"These are not people disengaged from their faith. These may be people disengaged from Sunday mass, but that's not disengaged from their faith." - Fr. Thomas Gaunt

"There are some effective people who are preaching, who are not ordained, not necessarily because they have robust theological education, but because they've had a really profound encounter with Christ." - Fr. John Gribowich

Resources Mentioned

• The Catholic Project at Catholic University of America
• Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University
• Person-centered counseling and Carl Rogers' work
• Simone Weil's writings on attention and waiting for God

About Religion to Reality

Religion to Reality explores how Catholics can live integrated lives where faith isn't compartmentalized but permeates every aspect of existence. Based on extensive research, including over two dozen interviews with Church leaders, scholars, and practitioners, this podcast seeks to bridge the gap between religious practice and lived reality. This concludes Season 1 of Religion to Reality.

Hosts:

• Dave Plisky - Researcher and host
• Fr. John Gribowich - Co-host and theological guide

Additional Guests This Season

Special thanks to all our season guests: Kathy Lorentz, Dr. Bill Keimig, Cindy Black, Fr. Joe Gibino, Christina Semmens, Fr. James O'Shea, Monica Martinez, Fr. David Roman, Andrea Sarubbi, Renée Roden, Emily Ricci, Mary Glowaski, Josh Packard, Luisamaria Hernandez, Mike St. Pierre, and Peter Andrastek.

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org
• Join the Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Support the Show

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary

In this insightful episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich step back from theory to examine the hard data behind Catholic discipleship and faith formation. They explore surprising findings from their comprehensive discipleship study and discuss what the numbers reveal about modern spiritual practices, evangelization comfort levels, and the changing landscape of faith in America.

Featuring interviews with three leading voices in faith research, Hans Plate (Vinea Research), Josh Packard (Future of Faith), and Fr. Joseph Gibino (Diocese of Brooklyn), this episode bridges the gap between data and pastoral practice. Discover what Gen Z really thinks about God, why 100% of people with spiritual directors found them through a spiritual community to which they already belong, and how the Synod on Synodality is reshaping the Church's approach to listening.

Key Takeaway: Data isn't just for businesses—it's essential for understanding how to meet people where they are in their faith journey and creating meaningful pathways to deeper discipleship.

In This Episode, We Explore:

[00:00:00] Opening Reflection

• "Listen and silent share the same letters" - the importance of silence in listening

[00:01:00] Why Data Matters for the Church

• How businesses use data to serve customers
• Applying data-driven insights to church ministry
• Understanding where people stand in their faith journey

[00:02:00] Surprising Study Findings

• Both physical and digital prayer aids are used across all generations (only 6% use exclusively one type)
• 100% of people with spiritual directors found them through their parish or faith community
• Prayer apps correlate with increased prayer frequency
• The challenge of measuring interior spiritual life

[00:04:00] The Omnichannel Approach to Faith

• Why multiple touchpoints matter in spiritual formation
• The integrated life as the ultimate goal
• Different seasons require different spiritual resources

[00:06:00] Interview with Hans Plate (Vinea Research)

• Majority of respondents pray over an hour daily
• 76% are comfortable evangelizing; 56% are proactive about it
• High interest in learning more about evangelization
• The need to understand what "evangelization" actually means to people

[00:09:00] Rethinking Evangelization

• Moving beyond agenda-driven approaches
• The importance of relationship before proclamation
• Why "evangelizing always, using words when necessary" isn't quite right
• Catholics as "human billboards" for the faith

[00:13:00] The Mormon Example

• Comparing Catholic and LDS approaches to living faith
• The disconnect between Catholic doctrine and lived witness
• Why both credible beliefs AND compelling witness are necessary

[00:15:00] The Lived Gospel

• Authentic joy as the most compelling gospel message
• Head vs. heart approaches to faith
• Everyone is on a journey—meeting people where they are

[00:17:00] Interview with Josh Packard (Future of Faith)

• Understanding Gen Z's diverse images of God
• Moving beyond "Moralistic Therapeutic Deism"
• The problem with trying to capture the most diverse generation with three words

[00:22:00] "Young People Aren't Leaving—Their Parents Already Did"

• Reframing the conversation around disaffiliation
• Over half of Josh's sociology students had never been in a house of worship
• The Church is decades behind on this trend
• What it's like to walk into a church for the first time with no frame of reference

[00:25:00] A Golden Opportunity

• Creating faith formation from scratch for spiritually seeking people
• Why we can't just replicate mid-20th century approaches
• Meeting real needs vs. perceived needs
• The Eucharist as a real need that isn't a perceived need

[00:28:00] The Power of Lived Example

• Why liturgy alone won't draw everyone in
• Starting from scratch as a blessing (less baggage from scandals)
• The shift from guilt-based faith to other motivations

[00:31:00] Interview with Fr. Joe Gibino (Diocese of Brooklyn)

• Bishop Brennan's genuine listening throughout the Synod process
• The challenge of getting people to silence themselves to truly listen
• "Listen and silent share the same letters"
• The fruits of good listening: hearing the Holy Spirit's "gentle whispering breeze"

[00:36:00] The Synod's Impact on Parish Identity

• Shifting from parish-specific identity to neighborhood Catholic community
• Moving from "we've always done it this way" to collaborative faith formation
• The role of family ministry in uniting neighborhoods

[00:39:00] Synod vs. Discipleship Study

• Similar themes: formation, youth focus, better communication
• Both heard from mass-attending Catholics about unmet needs
• The challenges and controversies surrounding the Synod

[00:41:00] Addressing Both Sides

• To traditionalists: listening is valuable; doctrine develops over time
• To progressives: seemingly small changes are actually big strides
• Comparing Vatican I's "anathema" tone to Vatican II's pastoral approach
• The Synod as Vatican II's continuation 60 years later

[00:47:00] Trusting in God's Love

• Taking risks while being present to those affected
• The impossibility of God's love collapsing through this process

Meet Our Guests 

Hans Plate - Founder & President, Vinea Research. Hans partnered with Religion to Reality to conduct the discipleship study. He also runs Pensari, a healthcare research company, and brings extensive expertise in understanding highly engaged Catholics.

Josh Packard - Co-founder, Future of Faith. Formerly the Director of Spring Tide Institute for Research, Josh provides custom research for faith communities and offers crucial insights into Gen Z's relationship with faith and spirituality.

Father Joseph Gibino - Vicar of Evangelization, Diocese of Brooklyn, Pastor of St. Charles Borromeo Church. Father Joe led diocesan-level Synod on Synodality efforts and champions family-centered faith formation.

Notable Quotes

"Listen and silent share the same letters, and if we haven't silenced ourselves, then we can't listen." - Father Joe Gibino

"The most compelling gospel is the one that's lived." - Father John Gribowich

"Young people are not leaving the church. Their parents are. In many cases, their parents left the church." - Josh Packard

"We as Catholics are always directly and indirectly advertising our faith—we are human billboards." - Hans Plate (quoting Matthew Kelly)

"What could possibly happen in this whole process that's going to lead to the utter collapse of God's love? It's just impossible." - Father John Gribowich

Resources Mentioned

• Vinea Research: vinearesearch.com
• Future of Faith: futureoffaith.org
• Synod on Synodality Resources: https://www.synod.va/en.html
• Religion to Reality Website: religiontoreality.org
• Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com – Join Father John Gribowich's free online gatherings

Next Episode Preview 

Join us for the season finale as Dave and Fr. John tie everything together and explore how to truly live an integrated life. Don't miss this culminating conversation that brings together all the insights from Season 1!

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org
• Join the Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Support the Show

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary

How do you find authentic Catholic community in a world that's more connected yet more isolated than ever? In this episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore why community keeps emerging as a central theme in faith formation, and why finding the right fit can be so challenging.

From whiskey tastings to Catholic Worker houses to digital book clubs, discover how different forms of community serve different spiritual needs. You'll hear honest conversations about parish shopping, the struggle to commit, and why sometimes the best community isn't the one with perfect liturgy or programs, it's the one where you show up consistently. Whether you're searching for your spiritual home or wondering if online connections can ever replace in-person fellowship, this episode offers practical wisdom for the journey.

In this Episode, We Explore:

Community Happens When People Need It (2:00-3:30)

• Why genuine encounters with God spark the desire for community
• How passion and shared interests naturally create fellowship

Whiskey and the Word: An Unconventional Small Group (4:00-14:00) Guest: Dr. Mark Heyman, Licensed Psychologist & Small Group Leader

• Creating low-barrier entry points for men's fellowship
• Why forced sharing turns people off from faith groups
• The importance of consistency: same time, same place, every week
• Understanding that not every group can (or should) be for everyone
• How whiskey breaks down barriers without being about getting drunk

Living in Community: Lessons from Catholic Worker Movement (20:00-32:00) Guest: Renée Roden, Journalist & Catholic Worker Member

• The reality check: community life is hard, even with a 1,300-year-old rule
• Why intimacy and friendship are foundational to sustainable community
• The temptation to become dictators of our own countercultural communes
• How families are successfully living the Catholic Worker vision
• Why conversion of heart requires healthy community support

Digital vs. In-Person Community (37:00-52:00) Guest: Luisamaria Hernandez, DeSales Media Success Consultant

• Using digital spaces as entry points to in-person connection
• Why commitment leads to consistency (and vice versa)
• The power of showing up: how to actually find communities in your area
• Why bulletins still matter (they're for introverts!)
• Understanding when virtual community serves vs. when it falls short

Meet Our Guests

Dr. Mark Heyman Licensed psychologist and host of the Whiskey and the Word men's group at St. Bridgid Parish in San Diego. Mark brings together men for fellowship, faith discussion, and whiskey appreciation—creating a space where authentic conversation happens organically.

• Website: thediabetespsychologist.com

Renée Roden Journalist, author, and Catholic Worker community member who writes about faith, culture, and the challenges of living radical hospitality. Featured previously on R2R Episode 7 discussing the expressive fruits.

• Website: reneedarlineroden.com

Luisamaria Hernandez Success and Solutions Consultant at DeSales Media with extensive experience in Catholic young adult ministry, including five years co-leading the young professional women's group at Harvard Catholic Center.

• Website: luisamariahernandez.com

Memorable Quotes 

"It's so hard to convert your own heart over and over and over again. And if you're not in a healthy community that supports you in that journey and is full of people committed to that together, it's going to go south so quickly." — Renée Roden

"Every group can't be all things to all people." — Fr. John Gribowich

"If you have that consistency, you're going to naturally be more committed. And I mean, structure would lead to clarity." — Luisamaria Hernandez

"We are just relational beings, right? That's just what we are. That's exactly how we are able to come to discover who we are." — Fr. John Gribowich

Key Moments

[00:00] Introduction: Why community keeps coming up in discipleship conversations
[02:00] Fr. John on discovering yourself through community encounters
[04:00] Mark Heyman: How Whiskey and the Word started
[05:30] The structure (or lack thereof) of their weekly gatherings
[08:00] Why observation periods help newcomers feel comfortable
[10:00] The debate: Does focusing on whiskey exclude some people?
[13:00] Every group can't be all things to all people
[15:00] Dave's parish shopping journey and coming full circle
[20:00] Renee Roden: Community life is harder than it looks
[22:00] Why Catholic Worker families are thriving
[24:00] The danger of becoming your own dictator
[27:00] Navigating different Catholic expressions in Worker houses
[32:00] The importance of clarification of terms in community
[37:00] Luisamaria on digital vs. in-person community
[42:00] How commitment creates consistency
[45:00] Practical tips: Join the WhatsApp groups and talk to people after Mass
[50:00] Why virtual spaces work best for task-oriented gatherings

Resources Mentioned

• SENT Community - Catholic entrepreneurship group where Dave met Mark Heyman
• Exodus 90 - Men's spiritual program mentioned by Mark's group members
• Catholic in Recovery - Organization founded by Scott Weiman
• OCIA (Order of Christian Initiation of Adults) - Process for becoming Catholic
• Harvard Catholic Center - Location of Luisamaria's young professional women's group
• CALLED Learning Community - Co-founded by Fr. John Gribowich (see below)
• Jenny Odell's work - Referenced regarding countercultural communes
• Dorothy Day - Founder of Catholic Worker Movement
• Peter Maurin - Co-founder of Catholic Worker Movement

Next Episode Preview

Join us next week as we dive into data from other studies and take a closer look at the Synod on Synodality. How is the global Church listening to its members, and what does that mean for your local parish?

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org
• Join the Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Support the Show

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary 

Are podcasts reshaping how Catholics engage with their faith? In this episode of Religion to Reality, we explore the explosive growth of Catholic podcasting and what it means for modern faith formation. From survivors finding their voice to Latino communities building networks, discover why this medium is uniquely positioned to meet people where they are—both spiritually and literally.

In this Episode, We Explore:

On the Nature of Catholic Media and Church Authority (00:00 - 08:00)

• "Anyone who's baptized is the church" - Paul Fahey challenges traditional boundaries of who creates "official" Catholic content
• Why the institutional church struggles with oversight in the podcast space
• The tension between empowering lay voices and preventing spiritual harm through misinformation

Measuring What Really Matters Beyond Downloads (11:00 - 17:00)

• "If one person's heart has been touched, you've done your task and mission" - Christina Semmens on redefining podcast success
• How the head-heart-hands-feet framework applies to both creating and consuming content
• Why discernment, not downloads, should drive your content decisions

From Fishing in Ponds to Sailing the Ocean (20:00 - 29:00)

• Jose Manuel de Urquidi's wake-up call: "We're all fishing in the same small pond while the ocean is right there"
• How John Paul II prophetically identified the internet as the "new Roman Forum" back in 2002
• Why podcasts can create deep encounters with God despite being one-way communication 

Meet Our Guests

Paul Fahey - Host of Third Space podcast, limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist who focuses on survivors of church-related abuse. Paul stumbled into podcasting a decade ago and found it uniquely suited to catechesis through dialogue rather than static writing.

Christina Semmens - Host of Say Yes to Holiness With 230+ episodes under her belt, Christina brings a framework of head-heart-hands-feet to integrated Catholic living. Her podcast emerged from her book work and has become a continuous discernment journey.

Jose Manuel de Urquidi - Founder of the Juan Diego Network Leading a podcast network dedicated to Latino Catholics with shows covering everything from church history to children's stories. His mission: evangelize, form, and entertain—preferably all three at once.

Memorable Quotes 

01:00 - "I can listen to a podcast while driving, running, doing dishes, mowing the lawn" - Why convenience matters for busy Catholics

05:00 - The fundamental question: What even counts as "the church" in new media?

07:00 - "There's a lot of bad Catholic content out there that misrepresents God" - The dark side of unregulated faith content

12:00 - The head-heart-hands-feet framework for integrated spiritual assessment

15:00 - Why passion and joy matter more than metrics in discernment

18:00 - "What unsuccessful podcasts don't want you to know: it was really just for us all along"

23:00 - The critical realization: Are we preaching to the choir while ignoring the ocean?

26:00 - Why St. Ignatius's book-driven conversion is no different than what a podcast can do

28:00 - The internet as culture, not just communication tool

Resources Mentioned

Podcasts Referenced

• On Being with Krista Tippett
• Third Space (Paul Fahey)
• The Telepathy Tapes (autism communication)
• The Heart's Desire and Social Change (Fr. Dan Groody, Notre Dame)
• The Attentive Heart Podcast (Fr. John Gribowich, Sunday to Sunday)
• The Bible in a Year with Fr. Mike Schmitz

Theological Concepts & Frameworks

• Head-Heart-Hands-Feet spiritual assessment model (from Dr. Bob Masson's "The Charmed Circle")
• Movable square meter (your personal sphere of influence)
• Digital evangelization and the "new Roman Forum"
• Seeds of the Verbum (finding Gospel seeds in culture)
• Discipleship funnel model

Podcasts

• Third Space Podcast: catholicthirdspace.com
• wherepeteris.com
• Say Yes to Holiness: sayyestoholiness.com
• Juan Diego Network: juandiegonetwork.com

Papal Documents on Digital Media

• John Paul II's 2002 World Communications Day message (internet as "new Roman Forum")
• Pope Benedict XVI's 2009 World Communicatiions Day message (internet as the "digital continent")
• Pope Benedict XVI's 2011 World Communications Day message (on digital authenticity)
• Pope Francis's 2016 morning meditation on the "culture of encounter"

Next Episode Preview 

In our next episode, we're diving into what the data tells us about community—why it matters and how it shapes discipleship in measurable ways. 

Connect With Us

Visit religiontoreality.org

Join the Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study. 

Support the Show

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform

Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show

Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Are you attending Mass regularly but struggling to live out your faith in everyday life? You're not alone. In this episode of Religion to Reality, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore why so many Catholics feel confident in their sacramental life but struggle with the expressive fruits of discipleship, particularly the corporal and spiritual works of mercy.

Drawing from their groundbreaking discipleship study, they sit down with three inspiring guests who are living these works of mercy in radically different ways: Renee Roden from the Catholic Worker Movement, Fr. Jim O'Shea of Reconnect Brooklyn, and Christina Semmens of Say Yes to Holiness. Together, they unpack what it truly means to become Eucharist in the world and how small acts of mercy in our daily lives can transform both ourselves and our communities.

In this Episode, We Explore:

Introduction: The Disconnect Between Mass and Mercy (00:00)

• Overview of expressive fruits from the discipleship study
• Why Catholics rate themselves low on works of mercy despite strong sacramental participation

Interview with Renee Roden - Catholic Worker Movement (3:00)

• The relationship between the Eucharist and works of mercy
• How the liturgical movement influenced Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin
• Why there should be no division between "helpers" and "the helped"

Mass as Commissioning (9:22)

• Understanding "Go forth, the Mass is ended" as a call to action
• Integrating material and spiritual needs in service
• The danger of separating soup kitchens from spiritual community

Practical First Steps for Living the Works of Mercy (13:00)

• Why accompanying someone already doing this work matters
• Overcoming the awkwardness of personal encounter
• Building spiritual muscles through community

Interview with Father Jim O'Shea - Reconnect Brooklyn (15:00)

• Working with at-risk youth in Bedford-Stuyvesant
• How radical solidarity costs us our comfortable narratives
• The fear that keeps us from authentic engagement

The Power of Listening (18:30)

• Why Fr. Jim says we've "written off" certain groups of people
• Starting with those in proximity before reaching the margins
• Working the muscle of deep listening in your own family

Interview with Christina Semmens - Say Yes to Holiness (25:00)

• Recognizing works of mercy already happening in daily life
• The confirmation student who discovered he was "feeding the hungry" by helping his brother with homework
• Your "movable square meter" of influence

Head vs. Heart Encounters (30:00)

• Why works of mercy are more heart encounters than intellectual exercises
• Making your service more intentional, not just checking boxes
• How recognizing what you're already doing strengthens the muscle

Key Takeaways 

• The Mass sends us forth: The word "Mass" literally means "to be sent"—we're commissioned to become Eucharist in the world
• No helpers vs. helped: The Catholic Worker movement reminds us we're all called to serve each other mutually, not from a position of superiority
• Start by listening: The most practical first step is learning to truly listen—to family members, neighbors, and eventually those in the margins
• You're already doing it: Many works of mercy happen naturally in family life—feeding children, helping with homework, welcoming neighbors—we just need to recognize them
• Your movable square meter: Wherever you are, the space within arm's reach is your sphere of influence to be Christ for others
• Comfortable narratives must be disrupted: True solidarity with the marginalized will upset our comfortable stories about ourselves, our families, and our nation
• Work the muscle: Like physical exercise, the practice of mercy and listening requires consistent effort with people in proximity before we can extend it further

Meet Our Guests 

Renee Roden - Journalist, author, and member of the Catholic Worker movement. Former marketing team member at DeSales Media and Notre Dame alumna. Renee brings firsthand experience of living in intentional community while serving those in need.

Fr. Jim O'Shea - Passionist priest and co-founder of Reconnect, an organization providing training, opportunity, and direction for at-risk youth in Brooklyn's Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood. Fr. Jim has dedicated his life to building bridges between disparate communities.

Christina Semmens - Author and founder of Say Yes to Holiness, a ministry dedicated to helping Catholics recognize and embrace God's call to holiness in everyday life. Christina specializes in helping people identify works of mercy already present in their daily routines. 

Memorable Quotes 

"There is no division between people who do the helping and the helped. I'm not just a helper. The point of the works of mercy is we're all supposed to be doing it for each other." - Renee Roden

"The Eucharist contains a call for us to go be Eucharist in the world, right? To become what we received." - Renee Roden

"If we do it well, our narrative is going to be upset. And none of us want that narrative messed with." - Fr. Jim O'Shea

"One of the biggest things I think we all can do is start listening to the people. There's so many people and groups of people that we have written off." - Fr. Jim O'Shea

"Until we had talked about what the corporal works of mercy and spiritual works of mercy were, he didn't realize that he was feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, and instructing the ignorant by simply sitting down with his younger brother after school, getting him a snack and then helping him with his homework." - Christina Semmens

Resources Mentioned

• Catholic Worker Movement
• Reconnect Brooklyn
• Say Yes to Holiness
• Cursillo Movement

Next Episode Preview 

Join us next week as we’ll be getting a little meta with it and talk about podcasting.

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org
• Join the Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Support the Show

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary

Why do so many Catholics struggle to share their faith, even when they want to? In this episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the personal and professional barriers that prevent Catholics from evangelizing effectively. Through conversations with Monica Martinez, parish lead at Hallow, Emily Ricci, founder and CEO of Gloriam Marketing, and Peter Andrastek, a senior consultant at the Evangelical Catholic, they discover that the solution isn't more training or techniques, but something far more fundamental: authentic relationship, genuine encounter, and what you might call "pre-evangelization." If you've ever felt uncomfortable with the word "evangelization" or wondered why your parish's outreach efforts fall flat, this episode offers a refreshing perspective that puts listening, presence, and personal holiness before programs and strategies.

In This Episode, We Explore:

• Why the word "evangelization" makes many Catholics uncomfortable (1:00)
  • "There needs to be almost what I would think call a pre-evangelization that takes priority over evangelization... It's so much caught up in the whole realm of listening, proactively hearing what people are saying and hearing it well." - Fr. John Gribowich
• The medium is the message: How Jesus embodies this truth (3:00)
  • Understanding the incarnation as the ultimate example of medium as message
  • Why focusing on doctrine first can muddy the real goal of evangelization
• Post-COVID parish evangelization efforts (7:00)
  • Monica Martinez shares what's working: welcoming gestures, hospitality, and simple recognition of new visitors
  • How one parish's director of evangelization makes newcomers feel valued
• Why Mass is often the wrong entry point for evangelization (9:00)
  • The complexity barrier for outsiders: "This is boring. Why am I here?"
  • The importance of encounter over information: "It's not so much about saying 'tell me that God loves me.' It's experiencing the love of God."
• Teaching Masses as a tool for formation (13:00)
  • Father John's experiences with Pre-Cana couples, RCIA candidates, and high school students
  • When and how teaching Masses work effectively
• The mutual evangelization principle (16:00)
  • "The person who feels called to evangelize needs to also equally feel called to be evangelized by the person they are trying to evangelize." - Fr. John Gribowich
  • Recognizing that Christ is already at work in every person's life
• Parish marketing challenges and solutions (19:00)
  • Emily Ricci on the top three obstacles: lack of time, lack of skills, lack of finances
  • Why "product before promotion" matters: You need something worth inviting people to
• The language problem in evangelization (22:00)
  • Moving from "what and where" to "why and how"
  • Using testimonial language from actual participants to communicate value
• What parishes get wrong about evangelization (22:00)
  • "They're typically very different... the parish that's going to be in the best spot to evangelize is the parish that's already active and vibrant."
  • Why you need to engage people in the pews before reaching new people
• The 12-step program model for Church community (33:00)
  • What the Church can learn: ritual, vulnerability, accessibility, and companionship
  • Shoutout to Catholic in Recovery (catholicinrecovery.org)
• Holiness over technique (35:00)
  • "If we reduce evangelization to something you can just train someone for... we reduce evangelization to the manipulation of human techniques." - Peter Andrastek
  • The power of a "love-transformed life" that radiates peace and joy
• The pull vs. push approach to faith sharing (40:00)
  • Why authenticity matters: "People can smell an agenda like poop on a shoe"
  • Letting curiosity draw people in rather than pushing a message

Key Takeaways

1. Pre-evangelization matters more than evangelization - Before presenting doctrine or inviting people to programs, we need to listen deeply and honor how God is already working in people's lives.
2. You can't give what you don't have - Personal holiness, authentic joy, and a genuine relationship with God must come before any technique or strategy.
3. The parish must do inner work first - Just like individuals, parishes need a core team that prays together and genuinely experiences what they're inviting others into.
4. Encounter trumps information - People don't need more facts about God; they need to experience God's love and mercy.
5. Be attractive, not aggressive - A life transformed by love naturally draws people in without needing to push an agenda.

Meet Our Guests

Monica Martinez - Parish Lead at Hallow, a chart-topping Catholic prayer app. Monica brings extensive experience in evangelization ministry and parish engagement, having worked with parishes across the country to understand what works in getting people to encounter Christ.

Emily Ricci - Founder and CEO of Gloriam Marketing, a Catholic marketing agency that serves parishes and Catholic businesses. Emily specializes in helping Catholic organizations communicate more effectively and reach the people they're called to serve.

Peter Andrastek - Senior Consultant at The Evangelical Catholic with over 20 years of experience in adult faith formation. Peter works with faith communities from college campuses to military bases, helping establish vibrant Catholic communities focused on authentic discipleship.

Memorable Quotes

"If we reduce evangelization to something you can just train someone for, just a set of skills or a technique for saying something, we reduce evangelization to the manipulation of human techniques." - Peter Andrastek

"The person who feels called to evangelize needs to also equally feel called to be evangelized by the person they are trying to evangelize." - Fr. John Gribowich

"Everyone is a walking Christ already, so what are we doing to honor and reverence the walking Christ in our midst?" - Fr. John Gribowich

"It's not so much about saying 'tell me that God loves me.' It's experiencing the love of God." - Monica Martinez

"People want to [evangelize], we just have no idea how to. That's not something that most of us were taught how to do in faith formation." - Emily Ricci

Resources Mentioned

• Hallow App: hallow.com
• Gloriam Marketing: gloriammarketing.com
• The Evangelical Catholic: evangelicalcatholic.org
• Catholic in Recovery:catholicinrecovery.com
• Vinea Research: Study on Catholic belief in the Real Presence (mentioned as a counterpoint to Pew Research findings): https://www.vinearesearch.com/catholic-belief-in-the-real-presence
• Marshall McLuhan: "The medium is the message" https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/mcluhan.mediummessage.pdf
• Pope Francis: "The Joy of the Gospel" https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html
• Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com - Co-founded by Fr. John Gribowich, offering free online gatherings

Next Episode Preview:

Join us next week as we explore the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, from understanding their meaning to how we can better live them out in our daily lives.

About Religion to Reality

Religion to Reality explores the gap between religious belief and lived experience, bringing research-based insights from the Called Learning Community's discipleship study into conversation with real practitioners. Hosted by Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich, each episode examines how Catholics can move from simply identifying as religious to living out their faith in authentic, transformative ways.

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If you found value in this conversation, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Ratings and reviews help others discover the show!

Website: religiontoreality.org
Join the Community: Sign up for free online gatherings at calledcommunity.com

Support the Show:

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
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• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary

What does it mean to truly hear someone versus simply listening? In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the transformative practice of spiritual direction—examining how this ancient tradition helps us tune into God's presence in our daily lives. Through intimate conversations with three practitioners, discover why seeing yourself as lovable might be the most important spiritual work you'll ever do, and learn how one diocese is making spiritual direction accessible to thousands. Whether you're seeking your first spiritual director or wondering if this practice is right for you, this episode offers practical wisdom and surprising data about one of Catholicism's most powerful yet underutilized resources.

In This Episode, We Explore:

Opening Reflection: Hearing vs. Listening (00:00)

• Marshall McLuhan's insight on electronic-age communication and the Gospel
• The difference between restrictive listening and transformative hearing
• Why Christ distinguished between scribes who listened and disciples who heard
• Key Quote: "To listen is to blinker yourself... but to hear is to put yourself on the same wavelength as the speaker." (02:00)

Interview with Mary Glowaski - Creating Gentle Spaces (04:00)

Mary Glowaski is a spiritual director based in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and serves as Dave's spiritual director

• Why gentleness matters more than technique in spiritual direction
• The crucial distinction between being loved and seeing yourself as lovable (06:00)
• Understanding whose we are, not just who we are (07:00)
• How spiritual directors discern between spiritual direction, pastoral counseling, and mentoring (08:00)
• The sacred trust of covenant confidentiality vs. simple confidentiality (10:00)
• Key Quote: "Too often I find people, Dave, that it is not that they don't feel loved, they don't see themselves as lovable." (06:45)

Confession and Direction: A Priestly Perspective (11:00)

Father John Gribowich reflects on the intersection of sacramental confession and spiritual direction

• Why confession should be viewed as gratitude rather than legalism (13:00)
• The challenge of complementing confession with spiritual direction
• Rethinking "spiritual direction" as "spiritual guidance"
• Why priests aren't always the right choice for spiritual direction (22:00)

Interview with Deacon Tom Whalen - Building Diocesan Infrastructure (16:00)

Deacon Tom Whalen coordinates spiritual direction for the Diocese of Charleston, South Carolina

• How one diaconate formation class revealed a massive gap in spiritual direction access (17:00)
• Creating a diocesan-wide spiritual direction program from scratch
• Why Spring Hill College's graduate program became the foundation
• The innovative model: spiritual directors work under pastors, not the chancery (19:00)
• Addressing the supply and demand crisis in spiritual direction

Interview with Hans Plate - What the Data Reveals (23:00)

Hans Plate is founder and president of Vinea Research and partner on the Religion to Reality discipleship study

• The surprising 100% statistic about spiritual direction availability (23:00)
• Why many Catholics don't understand what spiritual direction actually is
• Hans's personal journey: discovering spiritual direction through confession (25:00)
• The challenge of finding the right match when directors relocate (26:00)
• Comparing spiritual direction to coaching, mentoring, and 12-step sponsors (28:00)

Practical Takeaways (Throughout)

• Spiritual directors don't need to be priests—lay directors can be equally valid
• The search for a director is like dating: timing and fit both matter
• Zoom-based spiritual direction can be just as effective as in-person
• Most people discover spiritual direction through personal relationships or confession
• Good spiritual direction focuses on where God is already working in your life

Key Takeaways

The Interior Journey Moving the 18 inches from head to heart, integrating theological knowledge with lived experience, and recognizing that spiritual direction is about what's being done in us rather than what we accomplish.

Access and Availability The gap between those who would benefit from spiritual direction and those who can access it, plus innovative diocesan solutions to increase accessibility.

The Role of Self-Love Understanding ourselves as lovable as the foundation for experiencing God's love—a theme that emerged repeatedly across conversations.

Finding the Right Director Practical wisdom on navigating the search process, recognizing it takes time, trust, and often multiple attempts.

Meet Our Guests

Mary Glowaski

• Spiritual director based in Fort Wayne, Indiana
• Brings gentleness and depth to her practice
• Emphasizes creating covenantal relationships with directees that go beyond simple confidentiality to holding them in love

Deacon Tom Whalen

• Serves in the Diocese of Charleston, South Carolina
• Coordinates the diocesan spiritual direction program
• After completing his own spiritual direction training at Spring Hill College, he worked with diocesan leadership to expand access to spiritual direction across the entire state

Hans Plate

• Founder and president of Vinea Research, specializing in Catholic discipleship data and analysis
• Partnered with Religion to Reality on our comprehensive discipleship study and brings both research expertise and personal spiritual direction experience to the conversation

Memorable Quotes

On Self-Love & Being Lovable:

"Too often I find people, Dave, that it is not that they don't feel loved, they don't see themselves as lovable."
— Mary Glowaski (06:45)

On What Spiritual Direction Really Is:

"Spiritual direction is about looking at what's being done in us."
— Mary Glowaski (06:00)

"I'm not really interested in directing them anywhere. In fact, I think spiritual direction is just a bad term."
— Father John Gribowich (15:00)

On The Director's Posture:

"I'm always going to be in awe of what God is doing, and so therefore, how do I show up to be able to reverence that presence in the person."
— Father John Gribowich (15:00)

On Covenant Relationships:

"This is beyond just, I'm going to keep your trust. It's going to, I'm going to keep you in love."
— Mary Glowaski (11:00)

On God's Relentless Love:

"God will reveal his love to us by any means necessary."
— Father John Gribowich (16:00)

On Hearing vs. Listening:

"To listen is to blinker yourself... but to hear is to put yourself on the same wavelength as the speaker."
— Marshall McLuhan, The Medium and the Light (02:00)

On The Search Challenge:

"It's not only finding a spiritual director, but it's finding one that you think you can open up to and have this relationship... finding that right match."
— Hans Plate (26:00)

On Accessibility:

"It was quite obvious to me... there is an incredible need."
— Deacon Tom Whalen on discovering the spiritual direction gap (18:00)

Resources Mentioned

Spiritual Direction Resources:

• Diocese of Charleston Spiritual Directors Directory
• Vinea Research - Catholic Discipleship Dataspirit
• Spiritual Direction and Companionship

Books Referenced:

• The Medium and the Light by Marshall McLuhan

Programs Mentioned:

• Spring Hill College Graduate Spiritual Direction Program (Mobile, Alabama)
• Ignatius House (Atlanta, Georgia)

Next Episode Preview:

Join us next week as we explore evangelization—examining personal barriers, professional experiences, and how to share faith authentically in the modern world.

About Religion to Reality

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, created by Dave Plisky and produced by Conor Donnelly. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and help others discover the show by leaving ratings and reviews.

Connect With Us:

• Visit religiontoreality.org for more resources
• Join the Called Learning Community co-founded by Father John Gribowich for free online gatherings

Support the Show:

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary

In this thought-provoking episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the significant generational gap in Catholic discipleship and church attendance. Drawing from their recent discipleship study of mass-attending Catholics, they examine why younger generations are largely absent from churches and what can be done to bridge this divide.

The hosts speak with three experienced Catholic leaders who share practical insights on meeting the unique spiritual needs of different age groups: Mike St. Pierre (Diocese of Allentown Superintendent and former Catholic Campus Ministry Association Executive Director), Paul Morisi (Principal of Bay Ridge Catholic Academy and former Director of Youth and Young Adult Faith Formation for the Diocese of Brooklyn), and Friar Rick Riccioli (Franciscan Pastor in Brooklyn).

In this Episode, We Explore:

Opening Discussion: The Generational Church Gap [00:00:00 - 06:00]

• Study results showing 75% Baby Boomer/Gen X participation vs. 2% Gen Z
• Why young people aren't attending mass
• The hunger for in-person community among digital natives
• The impact of mediated society on human connection

Interview with Mike St. Pierre [06:00 - 15:30]

• Moving from "saying prayers" to "prayerfulness" [07:00]
• Family prayer laboratory concept [11:00]
• COVID as catalyst for spiritual leadership [10:30]
• The challenge of spiritual parenting and overcoming resistance

Conversation Analysis [15:30 - 21:00]

• Practical prayerfulness: 3 minutes of intentional listening [18:00]
• Individual spiritual charisms and the "spiritual laboratory" approach [20:00]
• Moving beyond one-size-fits-all religious education

Interview with Paul Morisi [21:00 - 32:00]

• Adapting Catholic education for 2024 realities [22:00]
• Finding "on-ramps" for individual students [25:00]
• Measuring interior spiritual growth [27:00]
• The shift from factory model to individualized formation

Interview with Friar Rick Riccioli [34:00 - 42:00]

• Managing parish demographic shifts and legacy infrastructure [35:00]
• The heartbreak of failed faith transmission [38:00]
• Funerals as powerful evangelization moments [40:00]
• Working with aging congregations while attracting youth

Closing Reflections [42:00 - 48:00]

• The limitation of Eucharist-centered faith without life integration [42:00]
• Mortality encounters and ritual hunger [44:00]
• The importance of welcoming rather than judging returning Catholics

Key Takeaways

1. The "How-To" Gap: Churches excel at teaching doctrine but struggle with practical spiritual formation
2. Individual Approach: Moving from factory-model religion to personalized spiritual development
3. Family as Laboratory: Homes should be experimental spaces for different prayer styles and spiritual practices
4. Generational Bridge-Building: Older parishioners can be allies in youth ministry when they understand the mission
5. Crisis as Opportunity: Major life events (especially funerals) provide powerful evangelization moments
6. Integration Over Compartmentalization: Faith must pervade all of life, not just Sunday worship

Meet Our Guests

Mike St. Pierre

• Superintendent of Schools, Diocese of Allentown, Pennsylvania
• Former Executive Director, Catholic Campus Ministry Association
• Focus: Campus ministry, family spiritual formation

Paul Morisi

• Principal, Bay Ridge Catholic Academy, Brooklyn
• Former Director of Youth and Young Adult Faith Formation for the Diocese of Brooklyn
• Focus: Catholic education innovation, youth engagement

Friar Rick Riccioli, OFM

• Franciscan Friar
• Pastor of Most Holy Trinity/St. Mary Parish, Brooklyn
• Focus: Urban parish ministry, demographic transition management

Memorable Quotes

• Mike St. Pierre on Prayerfulness: "We don't typically as a church have a problem with what to believe. It's how to live out that belief... I think most people are really more hungry for, well, tell me how to do that on a Thursday in December when I'm feeling stressed."
• Paul Morisi on Church Evolution: "The Church of today is ready for it to be 1980 again. That's our structure... But that's not the reality. The Church I grew up in, the Church you grew up in is gone."
• Friar Rick Riccioli on Young People: "It's not their anti-church. There's no connection to church. It's like they've written it off completely."
• Father John Gribowich on Individual Gifts: "Every child already contains everything that they need and everything that they will be able to contribute to the world. Your task as a parent is to get out of the way of what already is."

Resources Mentioned

• UCAT (United States Catholic Catechism for Adults) - Alternative to traditional textbook religion curriculum
• NET Ministries - Youth retreat organization
• Called Learning Community - Co-founded by Father John Gribowich (calledcommunity.com)

Connect & Continue the Conversation

Website: religiontoreality.org
Community: Called Learning Community at calledcommunity.com

Next Episode Preview: Spiritual Direction - exploring accessibility and role in discipleship

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, created by Dave Plisky and produced by Connor Donnelly. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and help others discover the show by leaving ratings and reviews.

Episode Overview

In this episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich explore the critical topic of faith formation, examining the barriers that prevent Catholics from receiving ongoing spiritual development and highlighting practices that have proven successful. Through conversations with three experienced formation leaders, they uncover why trust and personal relationships are foundational to authentic spiritual growth.

Key Timestamps

• [00:00:00] Opening quote on ministry and intimacy
• [00:01:00] Introduction to faith formation experiences
• [00:03:00] The backwards approach done right: Belong → Believe → Behave
• [00:05:00] Results from discipleship study on formation needs
• [00:06:00] Interview with Dr. Bill Keimig begins
• [00:11:00] Discussion on trust in formation relationships
• [00:19:00] Interview with Cindy Black on pastoral formation
• [00:26:00] Consumer Christianity vs. authentic discipleship
• [00:33:00] Interview with Friar Rick on Alpha program
• [00:39:00] Practical ministry approaches and flexibility
• [00:45:00] Long-term perspective on spiritual growth

Featured Guests

Dr. Bill Keimig

Deputy Director, Catechetical Institute at Franciscan University

• Expert in RCIA/OCIA processes
• Trainer for over 80 dioceses worldwide
• Advocate for relationship-centered formation

Cindy Black

Pastoral Associate, St. Vincent de Paul Parish

• Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend, Indiana
• Experienced in Catholic radio ministry
• Specialist in welcoming seekers to the Church

Friar Rick Riccioli

Parish Ministry Leader

• Experienced with Alpha program implementation
• Focus on hospitality and evangelization culture
• Expert in community outreach through arts and media

Key Insights & Quotes

On Trust in Formation

"Ministry is defined by degree of intimacy and nothing else." - Dr. Bill Keimig

On Consumer Christianity

"The end of evangelization is for you to go out and do it - to radically love people, not have the next thing that you get something out of." - Cindy Black

On Personal Conversion

"Formation aims at the soul for yearning, while education aims at the mind for learning." - Dr. Bill Keimig

On Authentic Discipleship

"The opposite of faith is not doubt, but the opposite of faith is certainty." - Father John (quoting Anne Lamott)

Main Takeaways

1. Trust is Foundational: Authentic formation requires proving you're trustworthy and demonstrating trust in God through daily interactions.

2. Relationship Before Program: Personal conversion happens through intimate relationships, not programmatic approaches that prioritize calendar schedules over individual needs.

3. Belong → Believe → Behave: The most effective formation welcomes people into community first, allowing belief and behavior to follow naturally.

4. Formation vs. Education: Formation targets the soul and develops yearning for God, while education primarily addresses intellectual understanding.

5. Avoiding Consumer Mentality: True discipleship involves giving what you've received rather than constantly seeking the next spiritual experience or resource.

6. Long-term Commitment: Effective formation programs often take years to develop culture and see significant results.

Discussion Questions

• How do you distinguish between formation and education in your own spiritual journey?
• What role has trust played in your most meaningful faith relationships?
• How can parishes shift from "consumer Christianity" to authentic discipleship communities?
• What barriers prevent people from receiving ongoing faith formation in your community?

Resources Mentioned

• FranciscanAtHome: Online catechetical platform from Franciscan University's Catechetical Institute
• Alpha: Evangelization initiative focusing on basic introduction to Jesus Christ
• Called Learning Community: Online faith community co-founded by Father John Gribblewich

Connect With the Show

• Website: religiontoereality.org
• Called Community: calledcommunity.com
• Subscribe: Available on all major podcast platforms

Credits

Created by: Dave Plisky
Produced and Edited by: Connor Donnelly
An Initiative of: DeSales Media

Religion to Reality explores the intersection of Catholic faith and modern life, helping listeners move from theoretical belief to lived discipleship. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and visit our website for additional resources and community connection opportunities.

Quick Summary 

What if prayer isn't just something you do at scheduled times, but the very attention you give to everything around you? In this transformative episode, we explore how "attention taken to its highest degree is the same thing as prayer" and discover why everyone—from busy parents to spiritual seekers—is called to be a mystic in their unique circumstances.

In this Episode, We Explore:

• Why 43% of prayer app users aren't even Catholic (and what this reveals about spiritual hunger)
• The one simple test to know if your spiritual foundation is strong enough for growth
• How to turn off notifications strategically to create sacred space in daily life
• Why letting go of prayer aids might be essential for a deeper relationship with God

Redefining Prayer with Kathy Lorentz

Spiritual Director & Educator, Sunday to Sunday Ministry

• "Let us remember that we are in the holy presence of God, and for me that is everything" (8:30) - How awareness of God's constant presence transforms everything into prayer
• "Attention is like a spotlight that can only focus on one thing at a time" (13:00) - The neuroscience behind why multitasking sabotages spiritual growth
• Practical digital boundaries: Why Kathy keeps her phone on "do not disturb" and how to create notification-free zones (15:00)
• Teaching teenagers mindfulness: The two-week digital journal exercise that helps students discover their own habits (14:30)

Digital Faith with Monica Martinez

Parish Lead at Hallow Prayer App

• 43% of Hallow users aren't Catholic (22:30) - What this surprising statistic reveals about modern spiritual searching
• "The Holy Spirit is not limited by an app" (23:45) - How technology creates safe spaces for spiritual curiosity
• The trainer analogy: Why spiritual apps are like fitness trainers - helpful but not essential (24:00)
• When prayer aids become idols: The hidden danger of relationship with your streak vs. relationship with God (26:30)

Universal Mysticism with Father David Roman

Pastor, St. Thomas Aquinas Parish, Fairfield, CT

• Why everyone is called to be a mystic (32:30) - The same grace that worked in St. Teresa of Avila is available to every parent, professional, and person
• "Formation vs. evangelization" (38:00) - Why teaching about God isn't the same as leading people to encounter God
• The belong → believe → behave model (39:00) - How community transforms spiritual formation
• Breaking open grace for lifelong Catholics (35:30) - Why even decades-long churchgoers often lack basic spiritual formation

The Litmus Test for Spiritual Maturity

Father John's insight: You know your spiritual foundation is strong when you become less judgmental of how others pray, not more zealous about your particular method (29:30)

Key Takeaways

1. Nurture a Healthy Environment

• Turn off non-essential notifications immediately
• Practice the "spotlight" principle: focus completely on one thing at a time
• Use technology as a gateway to relationships, not a replacement for them

2. Recognize Prayer in Plain Sight

• Every moment of focused attention is potentially a prayer
• Look for mystery and depth in ordinary encounters
• Practice gratitude for beauty in nature, relationships, and daily experiences.

3. Embrace Your Unique Path to Holiness

• Your mystical journey will look different from saints and spiritual heroes
• The same divine grace is available regardless of your life circumstances
• Spiritual growth happens through community belonging, not isolated effort

4. Use Prayer Aids Wisely

• Whether rosaries, apps, or liturgies - don't let the tool become the end goal
• Be willing to let go of spiritual practices when they stop serving a deeper relationship
• Strong foundations make you less judgmental, not more rigid

Meet Our Guests

Kathy Lorentz serves as a spiritual director and educator, working with the Sunday to Sunday ministry alongside Father John. A mother of five adult sons, she teaches mindfulness in the contemplative tradition and draws on decades of experience in marriage and family counseling.

Monica Martinez leads parish engagement for Hallow, the Catholic prayer app with millions of downloads. She works directly with diverse faith communities and has unique insights into how technology intersects with spiritual practice across denominational lines.

Father David Roman pastors St. Thomas Aquinas Parish in Fairfield, Connecticut, and specializes in mysticism and the universal call to holiness. His reverent celebration of the Eucharist originally drew host Dave Plisky into deeper friendship and faith exploration.

Memorable Quotes

"Pure unmixed attention is the highest form of prayer." - Simone Weil (via Father John, 1:45)

"Everything you're engaging with is far more than what it appears to be... there's a great mystery that lies behind everything." - Fr. John Gribowich (18:30)

"Mystery is not something you can't figure out... it's the reality that you can never exhaust knowing something." - Fr. John Gribowich (20:30)

"You don't need an app to pray, but you also don't need a trainer to get fit. But gosh, it really does help." - Monica Martinez (23:50)

Practical Action Steps

This Week:

1. Audit your notifications - Turn off everything except calls and texts
2. Practice the 3-breath attention reset - When you notice distraction, take three conscious breaths
3. Try the "wisdom, be attentive" moment - Before consuming any content, pause and set intention

This Month:

4. Keep a digital time journal for two weeks (like Kathy suggests for her students)
5. Practice letting go of one prayer aid or routine that might be limiting spiritual growth
6. Notice judgment - When you find yourself critical of others' spiritual practices, use it as a mirror for your own rigidity

Episode Timestamps

• 00:00 - Opening prayer and introduction to prayer as attention
• 05:00 - How prayer life evolves over time (Father John's journey)
• 08:30 - Interview with Kathy Lorentz begins: "holy presence of God"
• 13:00 - The neuroscience of attention and multitasking
• 15:00 - Digital boundaries and notification strategies
• 22:30 - Monica Martinez on prayer apps and 43% non-Catholic users
• 26:30 - When prayer aids become obstacles to a deeper relationship
• 29:30 - The spiritual maturity litmus test
• 32:30 - Father David Roman on universal mysticism
• 38:00 - Formation vs. evangelization distinction
• 40:00 - Integration and mysticism as attention to wounded humanity
• 44:00 - Closing reflections and next episode preview

Resources & Links

Ministries & Organizations:

• Sunday to Sunday - Adult faith formation ministry
• Hallow Prayer App - Catholic meditation and prayer platform
• Called Learning Community - Online faith formation gatherings

Books Mentioned:

• Praying the Truth by William Barry - Understanding prayer as friendship with God

Apps & Tools:

• Hallow - Catholic prayer and meditation app
• Your smartphone's "Do Not Disturb" settings
• Phone notification management tools

Connect With Religion to Reality

Subscribe & Share: Found this helpful? Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave a review to help others discover these conversations.

Join the Community: Ready for deeper formation? Join the Called Learning Community's free online gatherings at calledcommunity.com

For more resources, visit religiontoreality.org for episode transcripts, additional materials, and ways to continue the conversation.

Next Week: Formation - From Theory to Practice

Join Dave and Father John as they explore how we actually grow in faith through both formal learning and life experience. They'll explore the distinction between catechesis and evangelization, and why belonging must precede believing.

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, created by Dave Plisky and produced by Conor Donnelly. This episode features the wisdom of Kathy Lorentz, Monica Martinez, and Father David Roman.

Quick Summary

What if your "spiritual life" is actually holding you back from true faith? In this inaugural episode, we challenge the idea that faith should be separated from daily life. Through powerful conversations with pastoral associate Cindy Black and journalist Andrea Sarubbi, discover how encounters at bars can be more transformative than Sunday services, and why the Martha vs. Mary debate misses the point entirely. Learn practical ways to integrate contemplation and action into one unified approach to living.

Bottom Line: Stop treating faith like a separate compartment of your life. Instead, learn to encounter God in every person and situation, from church pews to neighborhood bars.

In This Episode, We Explore:

The Problem with Compartmentalization (03:00)

• Why treating "spiritual life" as separate from "real life" limits our growth
• "I went to mass on Sundays, but God was very distant to me at that time" - Cindy Black (07:30)

Sacred Encounters in Unexpected Places (12:00)

• How authentic relationships form without evangelization agendas
• "She was so taken aback that I even cared to learn about her life" - Cindy Black (12:30)

The Eucharistic Worldview (15:00)

• Using the Eucharist as a lens to see God's presence in every person
• "The Eucharist is not an end point for me. It's like the beginning point." - Fr. John Gribowich (15:45)

Beyond Martha vs. Mary (26:00)

• Why integration means being both contemplative AND active
• "We are both. Each one of us is both Martha and both Mary" - Andrea Sarubbi (30:15)

The Freedom to Choose Well (27:00)

• Using Ignatian discernment: "What would you do if you were about to die one second later?"
• How fear keeps us compartmentalized

Meet Our Guests

Cindy Black - Pastoral Associate at St. Vincent DePaul Parish in the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend, Indiana. Former Catholic radio professional with extensive experience in youth ministry and helping newcomers approach the Catholic Church. Known for her authentic approach to relationship-building across diverse communities.

Andrea Sarubbi - Freelance journalist, former member of Italian Parliament, and contributor to the Pope Video Project spreading awareness of papal prayer intentions. Draws extensively from Ignatian spirituality in his approach to integrated living.

Key Resources & Links

• Called Learning Community - Join Father John's online faith community: calledcommunity.com
• The Pope Video Project - Monthly papal prayer intentions: thepopevideo.org
• Ignatian Spirituality - Learn more about St. Ignatius' approach to decision-making: ignatianspirituality.com
• Religion to Reality Study - 2021 research study on Catholic Discipleship in the US by DeSales Media and Vinea Research: religiontoreality.org

Quotes to Remember

"Attention taken to its highest degree is the same thing as prayer." —Simone Weil

"The truth isn't a set of moral ideals. The truth is a person whose identity is love." —Cindy Black

"The difference between a church and let's say a bar is razor thin... whatever someone is trying to seek in a church, which is some form of acceptance in community, I can guarantee you that's what they're looking for in a bar too." —Fr. John Gribowich

"God is either everything, Christ is either everything, or he is nothing." —Fr. John Gribowich

What's Next?

Episode 2: Prayer - From Personal Practice to Data and Trends
Discover what weekly Mass-attending Catholics really think about their prayer lives and learn practical approaches to deepening your relationship with God.

Take Action

• Subscribe to Religion to Reality wherever you listen to podcasts
• Rate and Review to help others discover these conversations
• Join the Community at calledcommunity.com for free online gatherings
• Visit religiontoreality.org for additional resources and episode guides
• Share your favorite quote from this episode on social media using #ReligionToReality

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, created by Dave Plisky and produced and edited by Conor Donnelly. This 11-episode series emerges from groundbreaking research on Catholic Intentional Discipleship, featuring conversations with priests, lay ministers, industry experts, and podcasters exploring where data-driven insights meet lived faith experiences.

Have a story about living an integrated life? Email us at [podcast@desalesmedia.org]