What happens when two Catholics spend a season in interfaith dialogue with 30 guests, including monks, rabbis, professors, a Princeton wrestling champion, and a singer-songwriter rewriting the footnotes of the Greek New Testament? In this season finale, Dave and Fr. John sit down alone to answer that question. They unpack the threads that ran through every conversation, reveal (finally) where the name Religion to Reality comes from, and land on one idea that reframes everything: life is about participation, not orchestration. If you've ever wondered whether other traditions threaten your faith or deepen it, start here.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

Timestamps are approximate and based on the rough cut — update after final edit.

• [02:30] "This season has been all about listening." How an unprompted theme from Season 1's discipleship study became the mission of Season 2.
• [05:00] The season by the numbers. 26 episodes, 30 guests, 9 faith traditions, including two former advisors to President Obama and five current or former monastics.
• [09:15] "Religion is basically philosophy that involves God" — and why Dave no longer believes that. What the guests revealed about labels, categories, and the colonial origin of the word "Hindu."
• [13:00] "Life is about participation, not orchestration." Fr. John on why the guests felt "more human than religious."
• [16:00] Is the church only 21 years old? Richard Rohr's second-half-of-life idea, Nostra Aetate, and whether interfaith dialogue is a sign of the church maturing.
• [21:00] "It's not about changing things. It's about going deeper in things."
• [26:15] The names that kept coming up: Thomas Merton, Thich Nhat Hanh, and Bede Griffiths — and what ties them together.
• [29:45] Threads across traditions: the Jesus Prayer, purification rituals, major illness as spiritual turning point, and contemplation as "open awareness."
• [34:30] "Catholicism has nothing to say about what a good hike looks like." What Shinto, Daoism, and other traditions taught the hosts about mind-body-spirit integration.
• [39:00] "Maybe the Trinity is less to be understood and more to be experienced." What the radical oneness of God in Islam illuminated.
• [42:30] The name reveal. Fr. John finally explains how Alexander Schmemann's For the Life of the World gave the show its name and why Christianity, in Schmemann's view, is "a new life, not a new religion."
• [48:15] The craft of making this show: the hardest part of interviewing, and why some guests wouldn't talk about their own practice.
• [56:15] Can you really listen without agenda? Two guests, AJ Levine and Lauren Fister, challenged the season's central question. Fr. John's answer: learn to hear a person's wounds through what they're saying.
• [1:03:00] "You're telling me you just got lucky enough to be born into the true one?" Dave gets personal about a lifelong insecurity and how this project dissolved it.
• [1:11:30] Final thoughts: "To affirm our humanity is to affirm our divinity."
• [1:13:15] What's next: the Substack, and the free monthly interfaith gathering.

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"Life is about participation, not orchestration." — Fr. John Gribowich

"It's not about changing things. It's about going deeper in things." — Fr. John Gribowich

"Maybe the Trinity is less to be understood and more to be experienced." — Dave Plisky

"To affirm our humanity is to affirm our divinity. That's incarnational theology 101." — Fr. John Gribowich 

ABOUT YOUR HOSTS

Dave Plisky is the creator and host of Religion to Reality, the podcast about living an integrated life. The show grew out of a discipleship study Dave led at DeSales Media and across 50 episodes, he has interviewed Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Daoists, Sikhs, and Shinto practitioners about how they actually live their traditions. [Link: website / LinkedIn / Substack]

Fr. John Gribowich is a Catholic priest and co-host of Religion to Reality. Drawing on incarnational theology, Fr. John brings a contemplative, Merton-inflected voice to every conversation and a conviction that the Spirit speaks in ways we're not always used to.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

Books & documents

• For the Life of the World by Alexander Schmemann — the book behind the show's name
• Dominion by Tom Holland
• Nostra Aetate, Second Vatican Council declaration on non-Christian religions
• Richard Rohr's "two halves of life" framework (Falling Upward)
• Pope St. John Paul II, Theology of the Body
• The Thomas Merton Prayer ("My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going…")
• The Jesus Prayer

What if the entire spiritual life came down to breathing in and breathing out? In our penultimate episode, we sit down with Fr. Cyprian Consiglio, Camaldolese monk, musician, and the Abbot Primate of the Benedictines, for a conversation that ranges from Miles Davis to the Quran, from Taoist silence to quantum physics. He even sings for us. If you've ever wondered how interreligious dialogue actually works, or why the next stage of human evolution might be consciousness itself, hit play.

IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE

• Who are the Camaldolese? The oldest reform within the Benedictine family and their "threefold good", hermitage, monastery, and radical availability to the Spirit. (03:00)
• The whole spiritual life in one equation: "The love of God is poured in, and the love of God pours back out… you just have to breathe in and breathe out." (07:00)
• Music born from silence: "The sound of the music you make must be better than the quality of the silence you break." How a mentor's words shaped Cyprian's approach to chant, melody, and "singing the building." (11:00)
• Setting the Quran to music: why singing sacred texts from other traditions is an act of listening and Cyprian performs his setting of "A Common Word" (Surah 3:64) live. (24:00)
• Lectio Divina as an interreligious practice: the four levels of scripture's meaning and how his Rome advisory board will apply the method to Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, and Hindu texts. (28:00)
• "Seeds of the Word": the 2nd-century idea behind the Church's modern approach to interreligious dialogue, recognize, preserve, and promote what is good, true, and holy in other religions. (34:00)
• Where religions genuinely disagree: "You'll never hear me say it's all the same." The self, time, and why discernment, not blending, is the real work of dialogue. (39:00)
• Discovering the silence of God through Buddhism and Taoism and finding it again in his own tradition: "In the beginning was the Tao." (46:00)
• Why meditation is hard everywhere — from video screens at the gas pump to the noise of India: "Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good." (51:00)
• The next stage of evolution is consciousness: Einstein, the abolition of slavery, and why this question is "not hypothetical, this is life or death." (55:00)
• Can AI be conscious? Qualia, the taste of chocolate, and what only humans can preserve. (65:00)
• Holy vs. enlightened: Cyprian's parting challenge, a fierce commitment to spiritual practice and reading the Beatitudes every day. (70:00)

ABOUT FR. CYPRIAN CONSIGLIO

Fr. Cyprian Consiglio is a Camaldolese monk, musician, composer, author, and teacher with dozens of recordings and five books, most recently Epiphanies of Nature and Grace (Orbis Books). After a ten-year term as prior of New Camaldoli Hermitage in Big Sur, California, he is now based in Rome, where he serves the Benedictine Confederation and the Cistercian Orders as Abbot Primate of the Benedictines.

• Books:
  
  • Epiphanies of Nature and Grace
  • Prayer in the Cave of the Heart: The Universal Call to Contemplation

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"Artificial intelligence will never know the taste of chocolate, will never know the smell of a rose, will never know the sentiment of love I have for my son, and will never have the unitive experience with the divine." — Federico Faggin, as quoted by Fr. Cyprian Consiglio

RESOURCES MENTIONED

Sacred texts & Church documents

• Quran.com — the beautifully designed Quran resource Dave raves about
• "A Common Word Between Us and You" — the 2007 open letter from Islamic scholars (Surah 3:64)
• Nostra Aetate — Vatican II declaration on non-Christian religions
• Fides et Ratio — encyclical of Pope John Paul II
• Dominus Iesus (2000)
• The Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Dhammapada

What happens when the faith container you grew up in no longer fits and you don't want to abandon it? Former nun turned "spiritual wilderness guide" Kelly Deutsch joins Dave and Fr. John to explore the second half of life spirituality: the shift from certainty and security toward mystery, wholeness, and a wilder encounter with God. Kelly shares how 18 months of bedridden illness dismantled her identity, why practices are scaffolding rather than the point, and how guilt can be an invitation into deeper spiritual growth.

IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE

[00:03] Cold open — "Find the way that you connect with the divine… and that is your path."

[01:00] What is "second half of life" spirituality? Dave frames the three responses to a spiritual dilemma: batten down the hatches, throw out the container, or blossom beyond it.

[06:30] Kelly's story: an "audacious heart." Meditating an hour a day at 17, discovering Ignatian prayer, and joining a religious community in Rome devoted to spiritual formation.

[09:00] The turning point. A sudden, severe illness leaves Kelly bedridden for 18 months and dismantles the three big things: identity, purpose, and community.

[12:30] The origins of Spiritual Wanderlust. From a Rome term paper on Augustine and John of the Cross to a book, then a contemplative formation platform with year-long programs like the Women Mystic School, Celtic Spirituality, 20th Century Mystics, and this year's Night School.

[16:30] Who shows up — and why. The two hungers Kelly sees in seekers everywhere: depth and community.

[24:00] First half vs. second half of life. Building the ego's identity, grasping for certainty and security, until great suffering "dropkicks" us into openness to mystery.

[26:30] Religious suburbia vs. the Yukon. Kelly's signature analogy: leaving the HOA-approved color palettes of prescriptive religion for a wilderness that's both gorgeous and terrifying and learning to read your inner compass there.

[29:00] "Nothing and everything." How Kelly's Catholicism has changed: dwelling at the mystical heart of Christianity, theosis through kenosis, and why holiness is simply doing the will of God.

[35:30] Practices are scaffolding, not the point. Why rote prayer can insulate us from the wildness of God, and how to "catch the breeze" of the Spirit wherever it blows — Lectio Divina, nature, music, or conversation.

[40:00] Like-minded vs. different-minded community. The relief of finding fellow "spiritual weirdos," the danger of echo chambers, and why niceness isn't the virtue — kindness is.

[46:00] Mothers, guilt, and grace. Why guilt is an indicator worth examining, how parenting confronts us with powerlessness, and why feeling like a hot mess is often exactly where the spiritual path leads.

[55:30] Spiritual direction, done holistically. Bringing the body into direction, using Internal Family Systems ("parts work") to untangle the inner life, and honoring John of the Cross's "I know not what."

[59:30] Listening without agenda. Dropping "quidgestions," holding a sacred container, and trusting that the second half of life isn't a problem to be fixed.

[1:01:30] Where to find Kelly + a look ahead to next episode's guest, Fr. Cyprian Consiglio.

ABOUT KELLY DEUTSCH

Kelly Deutsch is a spiritual director, teacher, and founder of Spiritual Wanderlust, a platform for contemplative formation and inner transformation. A former nun, she brings 20+ years of experience at the intersection of mysticism, psychology, and embodied spirituality. After a severe illness left her bedridden for over a year, Kelly found guidance in the mystics and now helps seekers experience spirituality as something lived, not just believed.

Connect with Kelly:

• Website: spiritualwanderlust.org
• Courses: school.spiritualwanderlust.org
• Free mini-course on mysticism: mysticismcourse.com
• Free annual Contemplative Summit (30+ speakers, 4 days, online): contemplativesummit.com
• Kelly's podcast: Spiritual Wanderlust

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"Whether you can meditate, or whether you connect with God through nature or music or movement — find the way that you connect with the divine, and that you feel invited to connect with the divine. That is your path." — Kelly Deutsch

Also quotable: "Niceness isn't the virtue — kindness is." / "Feeling like a hot mess is often a really good place to be."

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Falling Upward by Richard Rohr — Dave's top recommendation for going deeper into second half of life spirituality (affiliate/link)
• The Interior Castle by Teresa of Ávila (link)
• Ignatian meditation (imaginative prayer) (link to primer)
• Internal Family Systems / "parts work" (link)
• Center for Spiritual Imagination — Adam Bucko (link)
• Center for Action and Contemplation — Richard Rohr (link)
• Mystics referenced: John of the Cross, Francis de Sales, Thomas Keating, Thomas Merton, Thich Nhat Hanh, Simone Weil, Mother Maria Skobtsova, Howard Thurman
• Previous episode: Elizabeth Schrader Polczer on Mary Magdalene and the Gospel of John (link)
• Next episode: Fr. Cyprian Consiglio, Camaldolese monk and interreligious dialogue leader (subscribe so you don't miss it)

What if one of the most important women in the Gospels was quietly edited out of the story? New Testament scholar Dr. Elizabeth Schrader Polczer (Villanova University) joins Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich to share how a prayer in a Brooklyn garden, and a pop song, led her from a singer-songwriter career to a discovery in the world's oldest copy of the Gospel of John: the name "Mary" crossed out and changed to "Martha." Her peer-reviewed research is now changing the footnotes of the Greek text behind your Bible. Listen in. This one left Fr. John legitimately amazed.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

[00:02:00] — From singer-songwriter to New Testament scholar. Elizabeth traces her spiritual journey from the Episcopal Church through Eastern meditation, and the prayer in a Brooklyn garden that changed everything: "Maybe you should talk to Mary Magdalene about that."

[00:07:00] — Down the world's deepest rabbit hole. A trip to the Brooklyn Public Library, The Complete Idiot's Guide to Mary Magdalene, and a lay person's hunch: had the text of John's Gospel been changed?

[00:10:00] — The discovery in Papyrus 66. Looking at the world's oldest copy of John (c. 200 AD), Elizabeth spots it in John 11: "the name Mary has been crossed out and changed to Martha."

[00:13:00] — "You have to stop harassing these scholars. You have to go get a degree." When no one follows up on the 50-year-old findings, Elizabeth learns Greek, earns her MA, and publishes her thesis in the Harvard Theological Review, research that will now be reflected in the footnotes of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, the critical text from which modern Bibles are translated.

[00:18:00] — Why Martha matters. The Christological confession: in the Synoptics it's Peter who declares Jesus the Messiah, but in John it's a woman. If that woman is Mary, possibly Mary Magdalene, she becomes a direct counterpart to Peter.

[00:19:00] — The mirror between John 11 and John 20. The parallels linking Lazarus's sister Mary and Mary Magdalene: the same question ("Where have you laid him?"), the rare word sudarion, a weeping Mary at a tomb watching someone she loves rise.

[00:23:00] — How (and why) a second-century editor might have done it. One letter separates Maria from Martha in Greek and adding Martha would mean "no woman can be seen as having too much authority."

[00:30:00] — How the research strengthened her faith. Elizabeth's stunning reflection on John 11:4 and the "wounded Word": "Just as Jesus's body was wounded... this text is wounded, and the Word itself carries its wounds in its body for us."

[00:36:00] — What do we actually know about Mary Magdalene after the resurrection? Legends of the South of France, the red egg of Eastern Orthodox tradition, and what the fragmentary Gospel of Mary does (and doesn't) tell us.

[00:40:00] — Mary Magdalene on screen. The Last Temptation of Christ, The Chosen, and how Pope Gregory's sermon in 591 AD, not Scripture, turned Mary Magdalene into a prostitute in the popular imagination.

[00:45:00] — A Protestant at a Catholic university. Life at Villanova, ecumenical dialogue, and why Elizabeth says her work argues for the inspiration of Scripture: "John is bigger than we've given it credit for."

[00:54:00] — Listening without agenda. Elizabeth's answer to this season's signature question: "The thing you most need to hear is hidden in the person who you immediately dismiss as other."  

ABOUT DR. ELIZABETH SCHRADER POLCZER

Dr. Elizabeth Schrader Polczer is Assistant Professor of New Testament at Villanova University. She earned her PhD in Early Christianity and New Testament from Duke University in 2023, specializing in textual criticism, Mary Magdalene, and the Gospel of John. A former singer-songwriter, her master's thesis was published in the Harvard Theological Review and is taught in seminaries nationwide. Her first book, An Abundant Bouquet: Narrative Variants in the Gospels, is forthcoming from SBL Press.

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"Just as Jesus's body was wounded, he carries his wounds — this text is wounded, and the Word itself carries its wounds in its body for us." — Elizabeth Schrader Polczer

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Papyrus 66 — the world's oldest substantial copy of the Gospel of John (c. 200 AD)
• Johannes.com — University of Birmingham's transcriptions of 100+ manuscripts of John
• Elizabeth's master's thesis in the Harvard Theological Review (2017) — http://www.cambridge.org/elizabethschrader
• Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament — the critical text behind modern Bible translations
• An Abundant Bouquet: Narrative Variants in the Gospels — Elizabeth's forthcoming book (SBL Press)
• The Oxford Handbook of Mary Magdalene — featuring Elizabeth's chapter on Patristics
• Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 5577 (published 2023) — possible new fragment of the Gospel of Mary
• The Gospel of Mary and other extracanonical texts (Gospel of Philip, Gospel of Thomas)
• Raymond Brown's commentary on John
• Films & shows discussed: The Last Temptation of Christ (dir. Martin Scorsese), The Chosen

Shinto has no dogma, no scripture, and no conversion, so what is it? In this episode, we sit down with two Shinto priests. Rev. Ann Evans, one of the few Shinto priests in North America and a certified forest therapy guide, describes the moment a gravel walkway lined with towering cedars felt like home, chants a purification prayer for us, and explains why forest bathing is her “side door to Shinto.” Then Rev. Taishi Kato, heir to a 1,000-year-old shrine in Japan, reveals why the most important practice of a Shinto priest is sweeping leaves.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• [00:00] Cold open: “It was an incredibly spiritual experience for me, and it just was home”
• [00:30] Dave and Fr. John introduce the Shinto episode, the traditional religion of Japan, with two priests as guests
• [01:30] Meet Rev. Ann Evans: Shinto priest, ANFT-certified forest therapy guide, and author of Shinto Norito: A Book of Prayers
• [03:00] Ann’s story: a Presbyterian upbringing in Pasadena, a Japanese exchange student, and the shrine ceremonies that moved her before she understood them
• [05:00] The walk that changed everything: approaching Tsubaki Grand Shrine through towering cedars — “it just was home”
• [06:30] Shinto and her Christian heritage: from “is this true?” to “it just is”,  no dogma, no scripture, no conversion
• [09:00] What is Shinto? The way of the kami, and why humans are innately pure and innately bright
• [11:30] Misogi: cold-water purification in waterfalls, rivers, and the ocean, and why cold condenses spiritual energy
• [14:00] Translating kami for the West: angels, saints, and loosening up our language
• [16:00] Fr. John’s observation: misogi sounds baptismal, ritual, archetypal, and what incense and cold water share
• [19:30] Life at the shrine: daily offerings of rice, water, sake, and salt; morning prayer; and ceremonies from baby blessings to business success
• [22:00] Ann chants the Harai no kotoba, the prayer of purification, in Japanese, then translates it
• [24:30] Why prayers stay in Japanese: kotodama, the belief that the sound of a word carries a soul
• [26:30] No evangelists here: from ancient Ko-Shinto in the forests to Shrine Shinto, and Rev. Yukitaka Yamamoto’s vision of bringing Shinto to America in 1987
• [30:30] Miyazaki, Totoro, and the Kodama: what Ghibli films get right, and why Shinto must be experienced before it’s understood
• [32:30] The torii gate: crossing from the secular to the sacred, plus the shimenawa rope and zigzag shide
• [33:30] Heaven as “the high plain”: the unseen world, 50 days of prayer for the departed, and gratitude for ancestors who can still see us
• [36:00] Forest bathing (shinrin-yoku) explained: “the forest is the therapist, and the guide opens the door”
• [41:00] Why forest bathing isn’t a hike: covering an eighth of a mile in three hours, and what changes when you let yourself be led
• [43:00] Chapters of a spiritual life: how Ann’s practice has evolved from young children to young grandchildren
• [45:30] Listening without agenda: holding a space people are welcome to step into or not
• [46:30] Where to find Ann: Matsuri Foundation of Canada, and the true meaning of “matsuri”, two hands offering a branch in gratitude
• [48:30] Meet Rev. Taishi Kato: eldest son of a family that has served their 1,000-year-old shrine for generations
• [50:30] Why 70–80% of Japanese people visit a shrine on New Year’s Day
• [51:30] The most important practice of a Shinto priest: cleaning the shrine grounds
• [53:00] Why it would be easier to cut down the 400-year-old trees and why sweeping their leaves is the point
• [54:00] Dave’s closing reflection: there are no shortcuts in the spiritual journey, and what our traditions prepare us for
• [55:00] Next episode preview: Elizabeth Schrader Polczer on the Gospel of John and Mary Magdalene

MEMORABLE QUOTES

“I was standing on this long gravel walkway with these huge towering cedar trees all around me, and it was an incredibly spiritual experience for me, and it just was home.”  — Rev. Ann Evans

“In Shinto, we don’t become Shinto. You don’t get converted to Shinto. It’s like Shinto just exists.”  — Rev. Ann Evans

“The forest is the therapist, and the guide opens the door.”  — Rev. Ann Evans

“The most important practice for a Shinto priest is to keep cleaning the grounds.”  — Rev. Taishi Kato

ABOUT ANN EVANS

Ann Evans is a Shinto priest and ANFT-certified forest therapy guide and an author and spiritual teacher whose work explores the relationship between humans, spirituality, and nature. She is the founder and director of the Matsuri Foundation of Canada, which operates Shinmei Spiritual Centre in British Columbia, a branch shrine of Tsubaki Grand Shrine in Mie Prefecture, Japan, one of the most important shrines in the Shinto tradition, with a history spanning more than 2,000 years. Ann has been instrumental in establishing one of the few Shinto shrines in North America and is the author of Shinto Norito: A Book of Prayers, an English-language collection introducing readers to Shinto prayer and ritual practice.

Connect with Ann: matsuri.ca

ABOUT REV. TAISHI KATO

Taishi Kato is a Shinto priest at Hattori Tenjingu Shrine in Japan, born the eldest son of a multi-generational family serving their 1,000-year-old shrine. He holds a Master of Arts in Religions of Asia and Africa from SOAS, University of London, and is committed to introducing Shinto to people around the world. He represented Shinto at the Religions for Peace 10th World Assembly, represented Japanese religious leaders at the G20 Religion Summit in Indonesia in 2022, co-produced an illustrated book of “Shinto moments” with two American collaborators, and in 2023 published The COVID Pandemic and the World’s Religions.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Matsuri Foundation of Canada / Shinmei Spiritual Centre: matsuri.ca
• Shinto Norito: A Book of Prayers by Ann Llewellyn Evans
• Tsubaki Grand Shrine, Mie Prefecture, Japan — and Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America, founded in Stockton, California in 1987
• Association of Nature and Forest Therapy (ANFT) — Ann’s forest therapy certification
• Hattori Tenjingu Shrine — where Rev. Taishi Kato serves
• Studio Ghibli films mentioned: My Neighbor Totoro, Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke
• Writers referenced: Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell on ritual and archetype
• Previous episode: Nikky Singh on Sikhism
• Next episode: Elizabeth Schrader Polczer on the Gospel of John and Mary Magdalene

What if paradise isn't somewhere else but wherever you slow down enough to taste what's in front of you?

In this episode, renowned Sikh studies scholar Dr. Nikky Singh gives us a warm, jargon-free introduction to Sikhism: its founder Guru Nanak, its radical vision of oneness, and why a free communal meal might be the most sacred thing you'll ever eat. Whether you've never heard of Sikhism or you're deep into interfaith study, you'll walk away with practical wisdom on savoring, silencing the ego, and becoming a genuinely better listener. No prior knowledge needed. Nikky starts from the very beginning.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

[02:00] – From a Punjab convent school to Sikh studies pioneer. Nikky shares her remarkable upbringing: a Sikh girl raised by Catholic nuns, a father who founded India's first academic department of religion (housed in a building shaped like a ship, with a "sail" for each faith), and the Walt Whitman poem that sent her searching for her own roots.

[10:30] – Sikhism, starting from zero. Who was Guru Nanak? Born in 1469 in a religiously vibrant but divided India, Nanak emerged with one core message: Ik Onkar,  one all-inclusive reality. His first words after his mystical vision: "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim."

[16:00] – So how does a Sikh live a good life? Nikky unpacks the four pillars of everyday Sikh practice: Sangat (togetherness), Seva (selfless service), Kirtan (singing divine praise), and Langar (the free communal meal, the Golden Temple serves 80,000 of them daily).

[21:00] – The real enemy: ego. Why haumai ("me, me, me") is "the most toxic stuff" in Sikh thought, and the concrete practices — service, music, poetry that dissolve it.

[24:30] – Inside the gurdwara. No priest, no icon, no altar — just a 1,430-page book of sacred poetry, the Guru Granth Sahib, which includes verses by Hindu and Muslim saints alongside the Sikh Gurus.

[30:00] – A platter with three dishes. Guru Arjan offered the scripture as a metaphor: truth, contentment, and reflection — dishes meant not merely to be eaten, but savored. Nikky connects this 1604 teaching to Laurie Santos's wildly popular Yale happiness course.

[35:00] – "Can anyone come to langar?" Short answer: yes. Sit on the floor, cover your head, eat. No questions asked — as one Montreal taxi driver could confirm.

[40:30] – The turban and the Five Ks. What Sikh identity looks like, what each of the five articles of faith actually means, and Nikky's feminist reading of these symbols as carriers of compassion and courage — not mere external signs.

[47:00] – Signs vs. symbols. Fr. John and Nikky find striking common ground between Sikh symbols and Catholic sacramental theology: a symbol doesn't just point to a reality, it embodies one.

[48:30] – Listen. Embrace. Love. The Japji's sequence of suniye (listening) and maniye (embracing), and the four loves Nikky says our anesthetized culture desperately needs: love of the divine, of the body, of humanity, and of this magical world.

[55:00] – Becoming a better listener, starting today. It begins with actually hearing the answer to "How are you?"

ABOUT DR. NIKKY-GUNINDER KAUR SINGH

Dr. Nikky Singh is the Crawford Professor and Chair of Religious Studies at Colby College and an internationally renowned scholar of Sikh studies. Born in Punjab, India, and educated at Wellesley College and Temple University, she is the author of numerous books, including The First Sikh: The Life and Legacy of Guru Nanak and translations of Sikh scripture published by Harvard University Press.

Explore her work: Wikipedia

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"Recognize yourself in everybody else. The other is a mirror for you." — Dr. Nikky Singh

"The opposite of aesthetics is anesthetic. You take some anesthesia, you don't feel a thing. And I think that's what our culture has become." — Dr. Nikky Singh

"What is in front of us is enough. We just have to slow down long enough to taste it." — from a student reflection shared by Dr. Nikky Singh

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• The First Sikh: The Life and Legacy of Guru Nanak — Nikky Singh
• Poems from the Guru Granth Sahib (Harvard University Press) — Nikky Singh, trans.
• Janamsakhis: Paintings of Guru Nanak in Early Sikh Art — Nikky Singh
• Mindfulness for Beginners — Jon Kabat-Zinn (Dave recommends the audiobook, which includes guided meditations, including the famous raisin meditation)
• Laurie Santos's "The Science of Well-Being" course at Yale
• Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents — Isabel Wilkerson
• The Mystery of Faith: An Introduction to Christianity — Fr. Michael Himes
• "Passage to India" — Walt Whitman
• The Golden Temple (Harmandir Sahib), Amritsar

What does it mean to be a "Ruified Christian"? In this episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Dr. Lauren F. Pfister, professor emeritus at Hong Kong Baptist University and a 30-year resident of Hong Kong, to explore the deep overlap between Confucian (Ru) tradition and Christian faith. Dr. Pfister shares his conversion story, the night his university community wept over Tiananmen Square, and the three-year beard-growing ritual he created to honor his late parents. Plus: a solo primer on the basics of Confucianism to open the episode.

IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE

• Confucius (Kong Qiu / Master Kong) — founder of the Ru (Confucian) tradition
• The Confucian Analects, Mengzi, Zhongyong, Shujing, Xiaojing — foundational Ru texts referenced throughout
• Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Søren Kierkegaard — early spiritual influences on Dr. Pfister
• Ralph Covell — missionary-scholar and mentor at Denver Seminary
• Chang Chung-ying (Chen Dongyin) — Dr. Pfister's teacher, whose late-in-life conversion is discussed
• Hans-Georg Gadamer — philosopher whose dialogue with Chang Chung-ying helped shape the latter's turn toward theism
• Lin Yutang, From Pagan to Christian — Chinese writer and intellectual referenced as a parallel conversion story
• C.K. Yang — sociologist who coined the term "dispersed religion" to describe folk Confucian practice in modern China

KEY MOMENTS

• [00:00] Cold open — Dr. Pfister on encountering "a personal relationship with the living God"

• [00:01–03:00] Host Dave Plisky's solo primer on Confucianism: the five core virtues (ren, li, yi, zhi, xin), the five foundational relationships, and the ideal of the junzi
• [05:00] Dr. Pfister's upbringing in a shrinking Methodist church in Colorado and his start at the University of Denver in 1969, amid the "Woodstock West" protests
• [08:00] A life-changing lecture leads to his conversion and a shift from mechanical engineering into the humanities
• [11:00] The call to Hong Kong Baptist College in 1987, and mentor Ralph Covell's influence
• [12:00] June 4, 1989 — the Tiananmen Square massacre and the moment his university's president wept publicly during Sunday service, cementing the Pfisters' decision to stay in Hong Kong for good
• [18:00] What it means to call himself a "Ruified Christian",  drawing parallels to Origen, Augustine, and Aquinas adopting Greek philosophy into Christian thought
• [21:00] A deeper look at what Confucianism (the Ru tradition) actually is, and why it's often called a philosophy rather than a religion
• [26:00] The story of his own teacher's late-in-life conversion, sparked by a dialogue with philosopher Hans-Georg Gadamer
• [27:00] Chinese intellectual Lin Yutang's journey from Christian, to skeptic, back to Christian
• [33:00] A crash course in Chinese history: the Warring States period, the rise of the Qin and Han dynasties, and how Confucian thought shaped "Imperial China"
• [39:00] How ancestor veneration, ritual, and cosmology (yin and yang) gave early Ru tradition religious dimensions, and the centuries-long "Rites Controversy" it caused for Christian missionaries
• [44:00] The three-year mourning ritual Dr. Pfister created after his parents' deaths, including growing out his beard as a living, daily act of remembrance
• [52:00] Where Confucian tradition remains strongest today (hint: Korea) and why most modern Chinese wouldn't call themselves "Confucian"
• [57:00] Remonstrance — the Confucian duty to respectfully challenge elders who go astray and why that's a dangerous idea in contemporary China
• [58:00] The closing question: how Dr. Pfister cultivates a posture of listening without agenda

ABOUT LAUREN PFISTER

Dr. Lauren F. Pfister is Professor Emeritus of Religion and Philosophy at Hong Kong Baptist University, where he taught for more than 30 years and directed the Center for Sino-Christian Studies. A specialist in comparative philosophy, Chinese intellectual history, and cross-cultural hermeneutics, he holds a PhD in comparative philosophy from the University of Hawaii at Mānoa. He is the author or editor of numerous books and 250+ scholarly publications on Confucian thought and the history of Sinology, including a landmark work on missionary-scholar James Legge. He now co-founded and serves as a mentor at the Hephzibah Mountain Aster Academy in Colorado.

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"I ask what I don't know. I ask how they came to their convictions... I can only love what I know is a true need or a true hope in another. If I don't listen, how can I know what they need and what they hope?" — Dr. Lauren Pfister

 RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Religion to Reality Substack (episodes, essays, and monthly interfaith gathering signup): religiontoreality.substack.com
• Show notes & resources: religiontoreality.org

What can a Daoist priest teach Christians about silence? Shifu Michael Rinaldini spent years in Trappist and Carthusian monasteries, had a reconversion to Catholicism inside a Vedanta monastery, and followed Thomas Merton's footsteps room by room before finding his home on the Daoist path in his early 40s. Ordained in Beijing as a 22nd-generation Daoist priest, Michael joins Dave and Fr. John to explore Zuowang ("sitting and forgetting") meditation, Qigong, Daoist cosmology, and why he still sends his priest-students on retreat to Catholic monasteries. If you've ever said, "I'm spiritual but not religious," Michael has advice you won't expect. 

IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE

• Why the apophatic tradition, the prayer of unknowing, may be the bridge that unites Christianity with the religions of Asia
• What Zuowang ("sitting and forgetting") meditation is, and why it uses "no walking sticks", no mantras, no recitations, nothing to hang onto
• How someone becomes an ordained Daoist priest in America (hint: it starts with a nine-month novitiate and a 1,000-day training)
• Why Qigong, Tai Chi, Chinese medicine, and Daoist meditation are all one system, not separate practices
• Michael's surprising advice for the "spiritual but not religious": find your local Catholic monastery
• The Daoist cosmology of pre-heaven and post-heaven, the Taiji, and yin and yang, and why the spiritual path means working your way back up to the One

[00:00] Cold open: "There's no separation of anything. It's all one total unity."

[02:30] Meet Shifu Michael Rinaldini, Daoist priest, Qigong teacher, and Camaldolese oblate

[04:30] Michael's winding spiritual journey: The Razor's Edge in high school, Zen in college, a yoga path to India, and a reconversion to Catholicism, inside a Vedanta monastery

[09:00] Six years of monastery-hopping: Christ in the Desert, the Carthusians in Vermont, the Trappists in Georgia and always arriving "two or three years behind Thomas Merton"

[12:00] The realization that changed everything: "Maybe I really don't want to be a monastic monk. Maybe I just want to be on the spiritual path."

[13:30] How minor health problems led to Qigong, Chinese medicine and ordination as a 22nd-generation Daoist priest in Beijing in 2003

[16:00] Inside a Daoist retreat: Zuowang, the meditation of "sitting and forgetting," and purifying the heart-mind to uncover your innate nature (Xing)

[19:30] The path to Daoist priesthood: a nine-month novitiate, a 1,000-day training and why Michael tells his students to make solitary retreats at Catholic monasteries

[21:30] Qigong, Tai Chi, acupuncture, and meditation: one system with ancient shamanic roots, not separate disciplines

[25:00] Dave asks Michael to explain the Dao. Michael's answer: "Well, I really can't." (Stay with him, he gets there.)

[26:30] Non-duality, the unitive vision of Fr. Bruno Barnhart, and the apophatic common ground between East and West

[30:30] Offering incense at the Daoist temple in the morning, the Buddhist temple in the afternoon: how China blends traditions the West keeps separate

[34:45] "I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual," and Michael's advice to find the silence of the desert at your local monastery

[39:00] Getting started with Qigong and Tai Chi: why one skillful local teacher beats a pile of books and videos ("gong" literally means skill)

[43:30] Philosophical vs. religious Daoism and the scholar-practitioners who insist that reading the Tao Te Ching without practicing stillness is "just an intellectual thing"

[46:30] What it means to go into your own emptiness and how that squares with human dignity

[54:00] Daoist cosmology 101: pre-heaven and post-heaven, the Taiji, yin and yang, and the path of working your way back up to the One

[57:30] Two sides of Daoism: Michael's meditation-focused Dragon Gate lineage vs. the ritual-rich Celestial Masters tradition (yes, including exorcism)

[61:30] The one ritual Michael keeps: the ordination ceremony, robes, vows, incense, and blessings with the whisk

[64:30] "Go home and grow as a priest in the heart"; the advice that became a 600-page book

[65:30] Dave's closing reflections and a book recommendation for the Daoism-curious

ABOUT MICHAEL RINALDINI

Shifu Michael Rinaldini is the director of the Qigong & Daoist Training Center in Sebastopol, California. Ordained in China in 2003 as a 22nd-generation Daoist priest, he founded the American Dragon Gate Lineage in 2006 and offers advanced Qigong and Daoist training and certification internationally. A Camaldolese oblate whose spiritual roots span Catholic monasticism, Zen, and Vipassana, he has written seven practice journals, most recently A Taoist Practice Journal: Interreligious Dialogue, Taoism and Christianity, Extraordinary Vessels, and Taoist Cultivation (2023).

Connect with Michael:

• Website & books: qigongdragon.com

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"There's a very simple definition of non-duality. There's no separation of anything. It's all one total unity." — Shifu Michael Rinaldini

"Maybe I really don't want to be a monastic monk. Maybe I just want to be on the spiritual path." — Shifu Michael Rinaldini

"How can you go deep into these healing energies without the process of the silence and the stillness that is cultivated?" — Shifu Michael Rinaldini

"First find a good teacher, and then read the books." — Shifu Michael Rinaldini

"Go home and grow as a priest in the heart." — the charge Michael received at his ordination

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Michael's website, books, and Qigong certification program: qigongdragon.com
• The Razor's Edge by W. Somerset Maugham — the book that started it all
• Thomas Merton — writings on contemplation and interfaith dialogue
• Fr. Bruno Barnhart, OSB Cam. — on the "unitive vision" and the expansive incarnation
• The Cloud of Unknowing — classic of the Christian apophatic tradition
• The Jesus Prayer & Centering Prayer — contemplative practices discussed in the episode
• Tao Te Ching & the Zhuangzi — core Daoist texts
• The Clarity and Stillness Scripture (Qingjing Jing)
• Daoism: An Essential Guide by Eva Wong — Dave's recommended overview of the tradition
• New Camaldoli Hermitage, Big Sur, CA — contemplation.com
• Sky Farm Hermitage, Sonoma, CA
• Christ in the Desert Monastery, New Mexico

What if the world isn't divided into sacred and secular because everything is already sacred? In our first Daoism episode, bestselling author and martial artist Deng Ming-Dao (365 Tao) walks two Catholic hosts through the heart of Daoist practice: why self-cultivation means removing obstacles rather than becoming "better," how the breath bridges body and spirit, what a Daoist diet looks like, and why evil is a human problem, not a divine one. A calm, generous conversation full of unexpected overlaps with the Gospel and a masterclass in listening from a tradition whose word for "sage" literally contains the character for ear.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

[00:03] From an unhappy kid to a lifelong path. Ming-Dao found the Tao Te Ching on his mother's bookshelf before his teenage years and kept noticing the word Tao everywhere, from Zen texts to art history. What hooked him: a step-by-step system that begins with the physical and leads to the spiritual.

[00:06] Self-cultivation isn't self-improvement. The Daoist view: you are already naturally pure and good, but obscured by bad habits, bad ideas, and socialization. "The idea is not to make yourself better. The idea is to divest yourself of these obstacles."

[00:07] The breath is the bridge. Purification starts with the body; the breath, both voluntary and involuntary, is the link between body and mind. That's the simple thesis of Qigong.

[00:12] What transformation actually looks like. Better health, flexibility, stamina, and calm and a surprising pattern Ming-Dao has seen repeatedly: about a month into practice, students often get sick as the body "pulls the illness out."

[00:14] A Daoist approach to eating. Whole grains (in moderation), vegetables in three colors per meal, minimal meat, fermented foods, seasonal adjustment, home cooking over restaurants  and skip the alcohol.

[00:18] "Religious" vs. "philosophical" Daoism is a scholarly construct. Who cares what your philosophy is if you're decrepit and unhealthy? Ming-Dao explains why he practices without ceremony, superstition, or fear of divine punishment.

[00:24] "How will you be a person?" His grandmother's kitchen held both Buddhist and Daoist figures. In Chinese communities, the question was never "How will you be religious?" traditions are shared like neighbors share a street.

[00:28] What if everything is divine? Air, water, food, life itself: given to us, unconditionally, by a world we did nothing to earn. "If we really open our eyes, this is a sacred world."

[00:35] The problem of evil. Daoism has no existential evil. Natural disasters aren't "evil"; only human behavior is. Which means behavior is a choice, and mercy extends to everyone: "you rescue everybody, both the good and the not good."

[00:42] Festivals as embedded philosophy. From Tomb Sweeping Day to the poet's festival in May, the lunar calendar carries Daoist lessons into the whole community, hear a story of honor every year of your life, and you can't help but absorb it.

[00:48] Fame, "enough," and the useless tree. Daoism warns against celebrity and status. The parable: useful trees get cut down for timber; the gnarled, "useless" tree survives.

[00:51] Finding a true teacher. Why lineage matters, what it was like being the demonstration partner for 13 years, and the master from Huashan who fled the Cultural Revolution to carry his tradition to America. "Even the masters need masters."

[00:56] Mercy, compassion — can we just say kindness? Don't hide behind semantics. Kindness to others is kindness to yourself, but kindness is not indulgence, and self-cultivation is not a tool to force yourself into someone else's ideal (the story of the biotech CEO who really wanted to play violin and walk on glaciers).

[01:03] The art of listening. What Ming-Dao listens for in every conversation: what the person really wants, a touchstone idea, or permission to be free.

ABOUT DENG MING-DAO

Deng Ming-Dao is an author, artist, and teacher whose books, including 365 Tao, Chronicles of Tao, Scholar Warrior, Everyday Tao, The Lunar Tao, and The Living I Ching, have been translated into numerous European and Asian languages. Trained in Chinese martial arts since 1975 under teachers from Beijing, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the Daoist mountains Huashan and Wudangshan, he specializes in the internal arts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, and Taijiquan. His forthcoming book, The Complete Tao Te Ching, publishes this November from Shambhala.

Connect with Deng Ming-Dao: dengmingdao.com

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"Do you know the Chinese word for sage means somebody who listens well? It has the character for ear in it." — Deng Ming-Dao [00:00]

"The idea is not to make yourself better. The idea is to divest yourself of these obstacles." — Deng Ming-Dao [00:07]

"If we really open our eyes, this is a sacred world, because we are the humble recipients of everything that keeps us alive." — Deng Ming-Dao [00:31]

"Evil is not a divine problem. It is not a holy problem. It is a human problem." — Deng Ming-Dao [00:36]

"That's not kindness. That's indulgence." — Deng Ming-Dao [01:01]

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Deng Ming-Dao's website & books: com

• Start here: 365 Tao: Daily Meditations — his most popular book, outselling the others six to one after 30 years
• Forthcoming: The Complete Tao Te Ching (Shambhala Publications, November)
• Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu — the classic text that started Dave's (and Ming-Dao's) journey
• Concepts to explore: Qigong (breath training), Taijiquan (Tai Chi), Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Qingming (Tomb Sweeping Day), the parable of the useless tree (Zhuangzi)
• Next episode: Michael Rinaldi on holding Daoism and Christianity together as a Daoist priest and Camaldolese Oblate

What happens when your spiritual calling doesn't align with the tradition you grew up in or the one your spouse practices? In this double episode, world religions teacher Bryan Lorentz recalls the fifth-grade moment he begged his dad to let him leave home for a monastery, and the answer that changed his life. Then interfaith minister Clay Dockery shares what a decade of working with Jewish-Christian couples taught him about raising kids, keeping families together, and listening without an agenda. Two stories, one lesson: you don't have to leave where you are to find the divine.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• [00:00] Cold open: "It's really easy to steal away to the mountains to find peace"
• [00:30] Dave and Fr. John introduce the segue episode between the Buddhism and Daoism series
• [02:00] Meet Bryan Lorentz: teacher, musician, meditator, and beekeeper
• [03:00] Growing up in San Francisco with teacher parents, five boys, and a family culture of music and open spiritual conversation
• [05:00] The fifth-grade calling: "When I grow up I wanna be a monk... but I don't wanna wait" (including the Halloween monk costume)
• [10:00] The muddy minivan conversation: Bryan asks his dad, a former Salesian seminarian, to let him leave for the monastery
• [12:00] The answer that stuck: peace isn't found by running away, because your emotional baggage travels with you
• [16:00] Bringing contemplation into a Catholic classroom: how Bryan gets energetic freshmen to meditate 5–10 minutes every class
• [18:00] The free-throw-line analogy: coaching students to hold their focus when everyone around them is losing theirs
• [21:00] Bryan finally does go East: monasteries in Nepal, Tibet, India, Sri Lanka, and China, and thousand-year-old temple stones worn soft by barefoot pilgrims
• [23:30] The Sisters of the Sacred Heart (RSCJ) and espacio: East-West contemplative practice in a global network of Catholic schools
• [25:00] Waking at 5 AM with Burmese monks in Bodh Gaya as the Muslim call to prayer rings out
• [27:00] Basketball, Tai Chi, and prayer rugs: the story of Ibrahim at Beijing Sports University
• [30:30] Dave's reflection: the sacred hides in minivans, soccer practice, and Halloween costumes
• [31:30] Meet Clay Dockery: seminary graduate, interfaith family minister, and nonprofit leader
• [33:00] Life on the margins: the nerd on the tennis team who could talk to everyone
• [35:00] Kicked out of Sunday school five times for asking the wrong questions, and the day a rabbi was heckled from the front pew of Clay's childhood church
• [38:00] Rebuilding faith: exploring Unitarian, Presbyterian, and other traditions before finding a home at the Presbyterian Student Center at the University of Georgia
• [41:00] How Interfaith Community works: meeting Jewish-Christian families where they are instead of asking whether they "should" exist
• [44:00] The three moments interfaith couples seek help: when they first commit, when kids arrive, and when those kids near bar mitzvah or confirmation age
• [48:00] Inside the curriculum: Jewish and Christian teachers co-teaching every lesson, and fully authentic (never watered-down) holiday services
• [51:30] Living in "liminal space": why Clay is most at home in the tension between what is and what could be
• [52:30] Fr. John's question: should interfaith parents give kids something, even something to reject?
• [56:00] The hardest moment: when school-age kids force parents to realize they care more about tradition than they thought
• [60:30] From seminary to the Renaissance Youth Center: "You don't have to talk about God to be doing God's work"
• [61:00] Clay's two rules for listening without an agenda: name your agenda and set it aside, then take ten breaths before you respond
• [64:30] Closing reflections and a preview of next episode: Ming Dao Deng on Daoism

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"It's really easy to steal away to the mountains to find peace. It's much harder to find it from where you are." — Bryan Lorentz (quoting his father)

"We control the inputs. We can't control the outputs. So we give the best inputs that we can, and then we see where the outputs go." — Clay Dockery

"I don't think you have to talk about God to be doing God's work." — Clay Dockery

ABOUT BRYAN LORENTZ

Bryan Lorentz teaches world religions at Sacred Heart Preparatory in Atherton, California, where he has spent nearly two decades teaching, leading retreats, and guiding immersion experiences across the Bay Area. He holds a master's degree in human development and psychology from Harvard, where he studied neuroscience and decision-making, and his spiritual formation has deepened through extended study in monasteries, temples, and universities across Nepal, Tibet, India, Sri Lanka, and China. A professional singer and guitarist, Bryan serves as music director at St. Denis Church in Menlo Park. He runs and meditates in the redwoods of the Santa Cruz Mountains, and with his 14-year-old son, Xavi, runs the family beekeeping venture Bay B's, making Bay Area wildflower honey.

ABOUT CLAY DOCKERY

Clay Dockery is a nonprofit leader and seminary graduate whose work focuses on interfaith families, identity, and community life. He holds a Master of Divinity from Union Theological Seminary and spent roughly a decade with Interfaith Community, writing curriculum and running programming that supports couples and children navigating Jewish-Christian family life. Today, Clay serves as Director of Operations at Renaissance Youth Center, a diverse community-based organization, where he leads organizational systems, staff support, and program infrastructure.

Connect with Clay:

• Interfaith Community: interfaithcommunity.org
• Social media (all platforms): @smartpenguin78

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Interfaith Community — chapters, classes, and contacts for interfaith families
• Renaissance Youth Center — where Clay serves as Director of Operations
• Sacred Heart Preparatory, Atherton — where Bryan teaches world religions
• Sisters of the Sacred Heart (RSCJ) and their global network of 200+ schools practicing espacio
• CrossCurrents — the interreligious journal where Clay first connected with Interfaith Community
• Union Theological Seminary — Clay's M.Div. alma mater
• Presbyterian Student Center at the University of Georgia
• The Tao of Pooh and the writings of Thomas Merton — books young Bryan flipped through for guidance
• Bay B's — Bryan and Xavi's Bay Area wildflower honey venture

What happens when a champion wrestler and Rhodes Scholar has a vision of Christ in an empty English church and then walks straight into a Buddhist monastery? In this episode of Religion to Reality, Kittisaro Weinberg shares his path from Chattanooga, Tennessee to Ajahn Chah's forest monastery in Thailand, two full years of silent retreat, and three decades building an interfaith sanctuary in South Africa. It's a rich, personal conversation about surviving typhoid fever, falling in love as a monk and a nun, and what it really means to listen without an agenda.

IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE

Hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich close out their season-long Buddhism arc with one of their most wide-ranging conversations yet. Kittisaro Weinberg, raised in a Unitarian household by a Jewish father and Southern Baptist mother in the Bible Belt, takes listeners through his unlikely journey: a wrestling career at Princeton, a Rhodes Scholarship at Oxford, a life-altering vision of Christ in a rural English chapel, and, almost immediately after, his first encounter with a Buddhist monk. From there, the story moves to Ajahn Chah's forest tradition in Thailand, a near-fatal bout of typhoid, monastic life in the UK, falling in love with fellow monastic Thanissara, and an improbable move to South Africa just as Nelson Mandela was elected president. Along the way, Kittisaro reflects on his two year-long silent retreats, the Buddhist-Christian common ground he's spent decades exploring, and how he practices deep listening every single day.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• [00:04:00] Growing up Unitarian in Chattanooga, Tennessee, between a Jewish father and Baptist mother and getting told by classmates he was "going to hell"
• [00:10:00] A five-time state wrestling champion at Princeton whose obsession with winning masked a deeper anxiety
• [00:13:00] At Oxford, sitting alone in ancient churches and experiencing a vivid, life-changing vision of Christ
• [00:18:00] Walking out of that church and, minutes later, discovering a Buddhist center and meeting his first monk
• [00:20:00] Leaving Oxford for Thailand in 1976 to ordain under the forest master Ajahn Chah
• [00:21:00] Nearly dying of typhoid fever in rural Thailand and the overnight train ride that saved his life
• [00:24:00] Relocating to a new forest monastery in Sussex, England, where he met Thanissara (then a novice nun named Binny)
• [00:36:00] What actually happens during a full year of silent monastic retreat, prayer, mantra, and "minding the gap" between thoughts
• [00:42:00] The improbable series of events, including a chance phone call to an old Oxford friend — that led Kittisaro and Thanissara to South Africa in 1994, the year of Mandela's election
• [00:50:00] Founding Dharmagiri Sacred Mountain Retreat and building an interfaith community through apartheid's aftermath and the AIDS epidemic in KwaZulu-Natal
• [00:52:00] How Buddhist and Christian contemplative practice share common ground and where "the pure of heart shall see God" meets Buddhist teachings on seeing things as they are
• [00:53:00] Kittisaro's daily practice for deep, agenda-free listening: the simple, humbling question "who's so sure?"

ABOUT KITTISARO WEINBERG

Kittisaro Weinberg grew up in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and graduated from Princeton as a Rhodes Scholar before studying at Oxford. He ordained as a Buddhist monk with Ajahn Chah in Thailand in 1976 and spent 15 years in monastic life, including helping establish Chithurst Monastery and Devon Vihara in the UK. After disrobing in 1991, he and his wife Thanissara co-founded Dharmagiri Sacred Mountain Retreat in South Africa, where they spent over 20 years teaching and supporting community development in rural KwaZulu-Natal. He holds an MA in Buddhist Classics from Dharma Realm Buddhist University and co-authored Listening to the Heart: A Contemplative Journey to Engaged Buddhism. In 2017, he and Thanissara co-founded Sacred Mountain Sangha in northern California.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Listening to the Heart: A Contemplative Journey to Engaged Buddhism by Kittisaro & Thanissara

• Aldous Huxley's Crome Yellow and The Perennial Philosophy
• Ajahn Chah and the Thai Forest Tradition
• Dharmagiri Sacred Mountain Retreat, South Africa
• Sacred Mountain Sangha, Northern California

A former New York City Ballet dancer turned Buddhist scholar and contemplative, Eva Natanya has spent decades holding two traditions, Catholicism and Tibetan Buddhism, not as a contradiction, but as one integrated life. In this episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Eva to talk about emptiness, the resurrection, fear, authenticity, and why she refuses to call herself "hyphenated." It's one of the most theologically rich conversations of the season; give yourself room to sit with it.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• (00:00) Cold open: Eva on why faith needs powerful reasons to be sustained in a secular world
• (01:30) Episode intro, why this episode is called "Both," and Eva's bio
• (03:30) How Eva and Fr. John first crossed paths, through Eva's mother, Veronica Mary Rolf
• (05:00) Co-writing Living Resurrected Lives with her mother, bringing Buddhist visualization techniques into explicitly Christian, Ignatian-style meditations
• (09:00) Eva's path into Buddhism: ballet, her mother's early gift of Zen Catholicism, and Teilhard de Chardin at age 12
• (13:00) The question that drove her studies: what if Christianity had developed in a completely different culture?
• (18:00) Why Buddhism became something she entered "as an insider," not a comparativist
• (19:00) Dave's tangent on Richard Rohr, "second-half-of-life spirituality," and the three options for outgrowing one's container
• (26:00) Fr. John on the fear of "coloring outside the lines" as a Catholic
• (28:30) Why Zen alone didn't resolve Eva's question of whether her practice was "justified" — and why Tibetan Buddhism's philosophical rigor did
• (42:00) Unpacking sunyata / emptiness — the Madhyamaka "middle way" philosophy, and why it doesn't mean nihilism
• (49:00) Reframing doctrine as "provisional but precious", a possible lens for Jesus's fulfillment (not abolishment) of the law
• (52:00) Concrete practice: guru yoga, analytical meditation, and parallels to confession and absolution
• (59:00) The heart of it: what Eva's work on resurrection actually claims, subtle mind, continuity of consciousness, and "living resurrected lives" now
• (1:11:00) Eva's invitation to the Center for Contemplative Research in Crestone, Colorado

ABOUT EVA NATANYA, PHD

Eva Natanya, PhD, is co-founder, vice president, and resident teacher at the Center for Contemplative Research in Crestone, Colorado. A scholar of Indian and Tibetan Buddhism, Christian theology, and comparative religion, she spent nine years as a professional ballet dancer with the New York City Ballet and the Royal Ballet before earning her MA at the Graduate Theological Union and her PhD in religious studies from the University of Virginia. She has collaborated with Dr. B. Alan Wallace on multiple translations of Tibetan Buddhist texts and co-authored Living Resurrected Lives with her mother, Veronica Mary Rolf. She has spent more than four years in a solitary meditation retreat.

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"One has to have extremely powerful reasons to uphold one's faith in this world, where it's not the norm." — Eva Natanya (00:00)

"I don't think... I doubt that you feel like you're Christian today and Buddhist the next. This is a very integrated idea." — Dave Plisky (00:21:00)

"Can you hold it as precious at the same time as seeing it as empty?" — Eva Natanya, on doctrine and Madhyamaka philosophy (00:47:00)

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Center for Contemplative Research — Eva's long-term retreat community in Crestone, CO
• Living Resurrected Lives: What it Means and Why it Matters — Eva Natanya & Veronica Mary Rolf
• Suddenly There Is God — Veronica Mary Rolf
• Open Mind: View and Meditation on the Lineage of Lerab Lingpa — trans. B. Alan Wallace, edited by Eva Natanya
• Fathoming the Mind: Inquiry and Insight in Dudjom Lingpa’s Vajra Essence — trans. B. Alan Wallace, edited by Eva Natanya
• Samatha and Vipashyana: An Anthology of Pith Instructions — trans. Eva Natanya & B. Alan Wallace
• Zen Catholicism — Dom Aelred Graham (read by Eva as a teenager)
• Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind — Shunryu Suzuki
• The Divine Milieu — Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
• The Bill Moyers / Huston Smith PBS series on world religions
• St. Simeon the New Theologian — referenced on the necessity of experiencing the Holy Spirit, not just baptism, for assurance of salvation

Fedde de Vries, a professor of Chinese Buddhism, joins hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich to talk about merit-making, ritual, and why "playfulness" might be the secret to taking a tradition seriously. Fedde traces his path from an eight-year-old lighting a candle in a Protestant church to a PhD in Buddhist scholasticism, and opens up about why silent meditation didn't help during his darkest moments, and what did. Along the way: jazz as a metaphor for scriptural commentary, the surprising overlap between Catholic and Buddhist views on marriage, and what it really means to listen without an agenda.

IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE

• "If I beat myself up over being imperfect, then I'm misunderstanding something about the nature of the universe." (00:00)
• How a children's book on the Four Noble Truths, read at age 12, set Fedde on his spiritual path (03:00)
• "Tradition, properly understood... is intrinsically about or contains an element of play." (30:00)
• Why Western Buddhist converts often skip straight to meditation and miss the foundational practices of merit-making, offerings, and ritual (17:00–18:00)
• "In periods when I was struggling with depression or panic attacks, silent meditation was often not the answer." (25:00)
• The Sui and Tang dynasties: why this era of Chinese Buddhist history shaped Fedde's whole approach to the tradition (12:00–16:00)
• Comparing Buddhist scriptural commentary to jazz improvisation; taking the tradition seriously while still playing within it (28:00–29:00)
• The history of Buddhist-Catholic dialogue at the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas, including the friendship between Master Hsuan Hua and Cardinal Yu Bing (38:00–39:00)
• What Fedde learned about marriage, sacredness, and the Trinity from preparing for his own interfaith wedding (40:00–43:00)
• Fedde's practice for listening without an agenda and why it starts in the body, not the ears (47:00–49:00)

ABOUT FEDDE M. DE VRIES

Fedde M. de Vries is an assistant professor at Dharma Realm Buddhist University, located on the campus of the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas in Northern California. His spiritual journey began in his early teens and led him into a lifelong connection with that monastic community, alongside study with other Buddhist teachers in both the West and Asia. Fedde holds a BA in Religious Studies from Leiden University (2012), an MA in Asian Studies from UC Berkeley (2015), and a PhD in Buddhist Studies, also from UC Berkeley (2024). His research focuses on Chinese Buddhist scholasticism during the Sui and Tang dynasties. He joined the DRBU faculty in 2024, teaching courses that introduce students to Buddhist meditative practice.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• The Four Noble Truths — the core Buddhist teaching that first captured Fedde's attention as a child
• City of Ten Thousand Buddhas — the monastic community and campus in Ukiah, California, founded by Master Hsuan Hua
• Dharma Realm Buddhist University — where Fedde teaches; offers a translation program, an MA in Buddhist Classics, and a BA in Liberal Arts
• The Sui and Tang dynasties — the period of Chinese Buddhist history central to Fedde's academic research
• Master Hsuan Hua — founder of the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas, who brought Chinese Buddhism to the West
• Cardinal Yu Bing — the Catholic cardinal and friend of Master Hsuan Hua who founded Fu Jen Catholic University in Taiwan
• The Divine Dance by Richard Rohr — recommended to Fedde by Fr. John ahead of his wedding, exploring the Trinity and relationality of the sacred
• Religion to Reality's monthly interfaith gathering — join for free via the show's Substack at religiontoreality.substack.com

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"If I beat myself up over being imperfect, then I'm misunderstanding something about the nature of the universe and about the nature of myself as a... flawed human being." — Fedde de Vries

What happens when a former tech and finance professional trades spreadsheets for robes and then brings Zen back into the boardroom? In this rich, wide-ranging conversation, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich sit down with Sozan Michael McCord, President of San Francisco Zen Center, to explore what it means to live a 24/7 spiritual practice in the middle of Silicon Valley's relentless hustle culture. From a crisis of faith in a conservative Christian church, to a fortune teller at a Microsoft company party, to leading a 3,000-member Tuesday night Zen gathering for tech workers in their 20s and 30s, Michael's story is anything but conventional. And his insights on AI, consciousness, and what makes us irreducibly human might be the most important thing you hear this week. 

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• "Zen is a 24/7 practice — or it's just a weekend hobby." How Michael defines Zen for modern life, and why most people are doing it wrong. (00:04:00)
• From evangelical Christianity to a Zen priesthood — Michael's extraordinary personal journey through faith, doubt, and reinvention. (00:08:00)
• The fortune teller at the Microsoft party who told Michael exactly what path he needed to take and why he ignored her. (00:16:00)
• John finally reveals the origin of the podcast's name, "Religion to Reality," tracing it to Eastern Orthodox theologian Alexander Schmemann. (00:50:00)
• Zen vs. other forms of Buddhism — how Soto Zen differs, why Zen priests can marry, and how Buddhism has always adapted to every culture it enters. (00:36:00)
• Buddhism: philosophy or religion? Michael recalls the first thing he ever typed into an AI tool and why he liked the answer. (00:46:00)
• Being Human in the Age of AI — Michael's workshop and why the bodhisattva vow is something no algorithm will ever arrive at logically. (01:06:00)
• The convergence of Christianity and Zen — on kenosis, Buddha nature, and why mystics across traditions are essentially saying the same thing. (00:52:00)
• Truth with a capital T vs. a small t — a stunning Grand Canyon metaphor for how awareness shapes what we call truth. (01:00:00)

ABOUT MICHAEL MCCORD

Sozan Michael McCord is the President of San Francisco Zen Center, where he has been a resident practitioner since 2009. Over the years he has held leadership roles including Director of City Center (Beginner's Mind Temple) and Chief Financial Officer. Earlier in his practice he served as Eno (head of the meditation hall) and Tenzo (head cook) at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center, the first Zen training monastery outside of Asia, founded in 1969. Michael was ordained as a Zen priest by Ryushin Paul Haller in 2014. Before Zen, he worked in technology and finance, and holds a BA in Theology from Ambassador University. He also volunteered in Amman, Jordan, providing vocational training for individuals with developmental disabilities.

Reach Michael: michael.mccord@sfzc.org

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"If I saw the answers to all of my problems, they'd probably all be solved. Therefore, the way that I need to live is to hold open the door to things that I might not think are true — because that means the answers probably are something that seem a little weird, or a little strange, or just a little wrong." — Michael McCord

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• San Francisco Zen Center — sfzc.org | Three Bay Area temples: City Center, Tassajara, and Green Gulch. Retreats, sits, courses, and an online zendo available.
• Young Urban Zen — Tuesday nights at SF Zen Center; 3,000+ members, 100+ attendees weekly. Open to all.
• Tassajara Zen Mountain Center — The first Zen training monastery outside Asia, 13 miles from society, founded 1969.
• Brother David Steindl-Rast — Benedictine monk who co-taught interreligious workshops at Tassajara with Paul Haller on the overlap between mystical traditions.
• Thomas Merton, Zen and the Birds of Appetite — Referenced by Fr. John as a complementary exploration of Christianity and Zen.
• Alexander Schmemann — Eastern Orthodox theologian; source of the podcast's title, "Religion to Reality."
• Philip K. Dick, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (adapted as Blade Runner) — Michael references the "empathy box" as a framework for what AI cannot replicate.
• Stephen Batchelor, Buddhism Without Beliefs — Recommended for those interested in Buddhist principles outside a religious framework.
• Thomas Paine — Quoted by Michael: "The measure of a person's intellect is the scope of what they can entertain without having to digest it."
• Religion to Reality Substack — religiontoreality.substack.com | Monthly interfaith gathering, first Wednesday of every month (free, online).
• Show notes & resources — religiontoreality.org

What if the path to awakening was simpler than you think and closer than you imagine? In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich sit down with Sensei Amy Kisei, a Zen Buddhist priest and teacher with 12 years of full-time monastic training. Amy unpacks the core of Zen practice, the radical simplicity of sitting, and explores how stillness, suffering, compassion, and community weave together into a life of genuine awakening. Whether you're a long-time meditator, spiritually curious, or wondering what Buddhism and Christianity really have in common, this conversation will leave you quieter inside.

 IN THIS EPISODE WE EXPLORE

• "You are Buddha. You have the wisdom and compassion within you. All you need to do is sit and connect to it." — Amy on the radical simplicity at the heart of Zen (00:07:00)
• How a Thich Nhat Hanh book given to a teenager during 9/11 became the spark for a lifelong Zen path (00:03:30)
• What sitting meditation actually is — and why it's harder than it sounds (00:08:00)
• The posture question: how to sit in a way that supports both alertness and relaxation (00:15:30)
• How to work with the "monkey mind" — using breath-counting as an anchor (00:19:00)
• Sitting alone vs. sitting in community — what changes and why it matters (00:21:30)
• Meditation as a purificatory experience: how difficult emotions surface and integrate (00:23:30)
• What "awakening" really means in Zen — and how healing fits into it (00:25:00)
• Common misunderstandings Christians have about Buddhism (00:26:30)
• The Buddhist teaching on suffering (dukkha), the Two Arrows, and why desire is misunderstood (00:36:00)
• Compassion as the bodhisattva ideal — and why it includes self-compassion (00:55:00)
• Life after the monastery: discerning when to leave and what comes next (00:44:30)
• How Amy structures her day — personal practice, spiritual counseling, and sangha (00:47:30)
• A closing meditation on listening — and how to practice it anywhere, anytime (00:59:30)

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"Meditation is like an acupuncture needle — it allows the unhealed parts of us to come up and be included, be felt, and integrated." — Amy Kisei Sensei, on her teacher's analogy for sitting practice

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Thich Nhat Hanh — Peace in Every Step and Living Buddha, Living Christ
  • Peace in Every Step (Parallax Press)
  • Living Buddha, Living Christ (Parallax Press)
• Robert Kennedy, S.J. — Jesuit priest and Zen teacher; author of Zen Spirit, Christian Spirit
• Mud Lotus Sangha — Columbus, Ohio sitting group guided by Amy Kisei
• Zen Community of Oregon — zendust.org
• Earth Dreams — Amy's Substack for Dharma talks and writings: substack.com (search "Earth Dreams Amy Kisei")
• Father John Gribowich's Substack — Going Analog: johngribowich.substack.com
• Kaira Jewel Lingo — featured in the previous Buddhism episode (Season 2, Episode prior)
• Michael McCord — Zen priest, featured in the next episode

What does it mean to commit your entire life to the pursuit of awakening and then step back out into the world? In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Kaira Jewel Lingo, a senior Dharma teacher in the Plum Village Zen lineage, who spent 15 years as an ordained nun under the direct guidance of the legendary Thich Nhat Hanh. Kaira Jewel takes us inside the day-to-day reality of monastic life in southern France, shares intimate stories of Thich Nhat Hanh’s remarkable presence and rare humility, and explores how Buddhist practices like mindful walking, loving speech, and “beginning anew” can benefit anyone regardless of faith tradition. Whether you’re a curious Catholic, a longtime meditator, or simply someone seeking more meaning, this conversation offers a warm and accessible window into the intersection of Buddhism, Christianity, social justice, and everyday life.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

Growing Up in Intentional Community

Kaira Jewel was born into Order Ecumenical, a 300-person intentional Christian community living communally in an eight-story building on Chicago’s north side. With daily morning offices, pooled income, hand-me-down clothes, and community meals, she describes a childhood structured around service, simplicity, and the conviction that all people are citizens of the earth. The experience shaped a deep hunger for meaning that she carried into adulthood.

Discovering Thich Nhat Hanh and Plum Village

Finishing college at Stanford in 1997, Kaira Jewel set off to find a teacher and a community with no specific religion in mind. After time in India, she attended Plum Village’s summer retreat in southern France. The moment she saw Thich Nhat Hanh, she knew. She canceled the rest of her trip and stayed. Two years later, she took her vows as a nun and remained for 15 years.

Inside the Heart of Plum Village

Fr. John asks what made Thich Nhat Hanh “the real deal.” Kaira Jewel shares how she never saw him rush, how his presence could dissolve stress with a touch on the shoulder, and how he constantly pushed students out of their comfort zones to stay awake and responsive. She also recounts the remarkable moment he bowed before hundreds of monastic students and apologized publicly acknowledging concerns they had raised in private letters.

Zen and Vipassana: Two Routes, Same Destination

Dave asks how Kaira Jewel holds two distinct Buddhist traditions. She explains that Vipassana emphasizes deep, silent inward retreat, slowing down so much you notice your intention before turning a doorknob, while Plum Village weaves mindfulness into communal life: loving speech, deep listening, gathas (short poems) posted everywhere to bring awareness to brushing your teeth or taking out the trash. She finds them deeply complementary, each opening different angles of the same path.

What Buddhism Offers Christians (and Vice Versa)

Thich Nhat Hanh had a picture of Jesus and Buddha hugging on his altar and bowed to it daily. He spent an entire three-month retreat teaching the Rule of St. Benedict. Kaira Jewel reflects on his concept of “dual belonging”  that a tree without roots cannot survive and his challenge to every tradition: lift up the gems, and honestly name and heal the shadows.

Practical Tools for Everyday Life

Kaira Jewel shares two practices she has brought into her marriage with Episcopal priest Adam: walking meditation (which he has combined with the Jesus Prayer,  “Jesus” on the inhale, “I trust you” on the exhale) and “beginning anew,” a structured weekly practice of appreciation, regret, and honest sharing that clears pebbles from a relationship before they become boulders.

ABOUT KAIRA JEWEL LINGO

Kaira Jewel Lingo is a senior Dharma teacher in the Plum Village Zen lineage, a Vipassana teacher, and a member of the Plum Village North American Dharma Teachers Council of Elders. After living as an ordained nun for 15 years in Thich Nhat Hanh’s monastic community, she now teaches internationally in the Zen and Vipassana traditions and in secular mindfulness contexts. Her work centers on the intersection of racial, climate, and social justice, with particular care for Black, Indigenous, and people of color communities. Based in New York, she is the author of

• We Were Made for These Times: 10 Lessons in Moving Through Change, Loss, and Disruption
• Healing Our Way Home: Black Buddhist Teachings on Ancestors, Joy, and Liberation (co-author)
• We Were Made for These Times: 10 Lessons in Moving Through Change, Loss, and Disruption
• Healing Our Way Home: Black Buddhist Teachings on Ancestors, Joy, and Liberation (co-author)

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• We Were Made for These Times by Kaira Jewel Lingo — org
• Healing Our Way Home by Kaira Jewel Lingo & Valerie Brown — com
• Kaira Jewel Lingo’s website — com
• Plum Village — org
• One Earth Sangha (Kaira Jewel is a guiding teacher) — org
• Thich Nhat Hanh — org/thich-nhat-hanh
• Mindfulness for Christians by Sister Annabel Laity (Sister Chan Duc)
• The Rule of St. Benedict — referenced in Thich Nhat Hanh’s three-month retreat teachings

What happens when a Catholic scholar spends decades living inside the world's great religious traditions, not just studying them from a distance, but praying, meditating, and forming deep relationships across faith lines? Professor Bradley Malkovsky of the University of Notre Dame has done exactly that, and what he found might surprise you. In this episode, Brad takes us from a Benedictine monastery in New Mexico to a 10-day silent Vipassana retreat in India, from the holy peaks of Mount Athos to a miraculous stone-lifting ceremony at a Muslim saint's shrine in Maharashtra. Along the way, he challenges Catholics to take seriously what Vatican II's Nostra Aetate actually says and what most Catholics have never been told.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• Nostra Aetate (Vatican II, 1965) was a revolutionary shift in Catholic teaching, recognizing holiness as possible in other religions. Most Catholics have never read it.
• Holiness is not exclusive to Christianity. Brad's decades of lived experience, not just theology, convinced him the Spirit of God is genuinely at work in other traditions.
• Meditation and prayer are not the same thing, but meditation can be a bridge to deeper prayer. Brad still uses breath-awareness techniques from Vipassana in his own spiritual life.
• Reincarnation addresses the problem of evil in ways that Christianity struggles with but falls short of Christianity's affirmation of the infinite dignity of the individual human person.
• Real interfaith encounter requires meeting people, not just ideas. Brad's view of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam was transformed not by books alone, but by encountering holy people. 

ABOUT BRADLEY MALKOVSKY

Bradley Malkovsky is a professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame and an internationally respected scholar of comparative theology and interreligious dialogue. He has taught at Notre Dame since 1992, holds advanced degrees from the University of Tübingen, and studied Sanskrit and Hindu thought at the University of Pune in India, where he also lived for five years. He is the author of God's Other Children: Personal Encounters with Faith, Love, and Holiness in Sacred India, winner of the Huston Smith Publishing Prize. He previously served as editor of the Journal of Hindu-Christian Studies.

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"When you actually meet somebody — don't just hear about something from a book, but actually encounter the living presence of someone who's holy from another religion — it changes everything." — Bradley Malkovsky

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton — Find it here
• ️ Christ in the Desert Monastery — Abiquiú, New Mexico (where Brad spent nearly a year in 1973)
• Vipassana Meditation (Goenka tradition) — 10-day silent retreats offered worldwide
• ⛪ Mount Athos — Eastern Orthodox monastic peninsula in Greece
• Haji Ali Dargah — Muslim pilgrimage shrine in Maharashtra, India
• Nostra Aetate (Vatican II Declaration, 1965) — Read the full text
• Bede Griffiths — Brad's primary spiritual mentor in India; explore his work here
• ️Turning to the Mystics podcast with James Finley (Center for Action and Contemplation) — Listen here
• The Buddhist Conversion — Paul Williams on the infinite value of the human person in Christianity vs. Buddhist metaphysics

Anju Bhargava, Vedantic teacher, ordained Hindu minister, and former White House faith advisor, joins hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich to demystify Hinduism from the inside out. From the meaning of Brahman and Atman, to the four stages of life, to how karma yoga mirrors the Christian idea of surrendering the fruits of your labor to God, this conversation will leave you seeing both your own faith and the broader human spiritual journey in a new light. 

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• Sanatana Dharma — the original name for Hinduism; means "universal way of life"
• Brahman / Brahmand — the universal soul; the divine that pervades all existence
• Atman — the individual soul, always connected to the universal
• Moksha — liberation from the cycle of birth and rebirth
• Puja — ritual worship; welcoming a deity as an honored guest
• Karma yoga — the path of right action and surrender of outcomes
• Bhakti yoga — the path of devotion
• Gyan yoga — the path of knowledge
• Vipassana — a Buddhist-rooted meditation technique that trains the mind toward observation and presence
• The Bhagavad Gita — the distillation of all Vedantic teachings; a dialogue between Krishna (teacher) and Arjuna (student)
• The Vedas — the four foundational sacred texts of the Hindu tradition
• Rag and Dwesh — craving and aversion; the two forces that cause suffering (dukkha) 

ABOUT ANJU BHARGAVA

Anju Bhargava is a retired federal executive, former senior banker, Vedantic teacher, and ordained Hindu minister and chaplain with over four decades of experience bridging public service, interfaith leadership, and Hindu philosophy. She served as the first chief risk officer at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services and as a senior vice president at Bank of America. She was the only Hindu American appointed to President Obama's Inaugural Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, where she founded Hindu American Seva Communities to advance community service and social justice. She is a trained yoga teacher, Vipassana practitioner, and founding member of the first South Asian women's organization in North America.

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"Sanatana Dharma was never tied to any ism. Its goal was always: find God within yourself."

"Yoga means the union of the soul with the higher self. What we see in the West as Hatha yoga is only the physical aspect — training the body so you can sit and meditate."

"As you practice meditation more, the frequency of getting pulled off balance becomes less, the intensity reduces, and you recover faster. That is the only real measure of your progress."

"You make all the effort — but the fruits of your labor are left to the hands of the divine. That is karma yoga."

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• The Golden Road by William Dalrymple — on India's historical influence across the ancient world
• Patanjali Yoga Sutras — foundational philosophy of yoga
• University of Maryland School of Medicine Yoga Program
• Parliament of the World's Religions — where Swami Vivekananda first spoke in 1893
• Hindu American Seva Communities
• Swami Chinmayananda — reformer who worked to bring Vedantic education to modern Hindus
• Panchatantras — ancient Hindu stories; the source tradition that inspired Aesop's Fables

In addition to the ancient texts, Anju's teachers have been Swami Parmarthananda who provides clear contemporary explanations. Some of his lectures are available at https://www.yogamalika.org/. He is a disciple (student) of both Swami Chinmayanand (https://www.chinmayamission.com/global/swami-chinmayananda ) and Swami Dayananda Saraswati (https://arshavidya.org/), also a reformer. 

What happens when a Catholic scholar spends decades immersed in the world of Islam, not to convert, but to truly listen? Gabriel Said Reynolds, one of the leading Quran scholars in the world and a professor at Notre Dame, joins hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich for a conversation that will challenge assumptions you didn't even know you had.

From growing up in suburban Connecticut with a vague sense of religion to studying Arabic at Columbia, meeting evangelicals, traveling to Jordan, and ultimately being appointed by Pope Francis to the Vatican's Dicastery for Interreligious Dialogue, Reynolds' journey is anything but ordinary. What he's learned from Islam may just make you a better Christian.

"We created the human and we know what his own soul whispers to him, and we are closer to him than his jugular vein." — Quran, Chapter 50 (as discussed by Reynolds)

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

Reynolds' Unexpected Journey into Islamic Studies

Reynolds didn't set out to become one of the world's foremost Quran scholars. He came from a casually religious suburban household, learned Arabic partly out of family heritage (his middle name is Said, after an Arab American grandfather), and stumbled into transformative encounters, first with enthusiastic evangelical Protestants at Columbia, then with Muslims during a summer in Jordan. Those experiences sparked a lifelong fascination with how Islam, uniquely among world religions, makes its own claims about Jesus.

What Islam Reveals About American Catholicism

One of Reynolds' most provocative observations: spending time in Muslim-majority cultures forced him to notice how much American Catholicism has been quietly shaped by Protestant and secular assumptions. From dating culture to the de-emphasis of saints and sacraments, Reynolds argues that Islamic difference serves as a kind of mirror, one that reveals how much Western Christians take for granted.

The Quran Is Not the Islamic Bible

The Bible is not a "Christian Quran," and the Quran is not an "Islamic Bible." Reynolds walks through the fundamental differences in purpose, in content, in the doctrine behind each text. The Quran was designed to be recited in prayer (closer to a psalter in function), rhymes in Arabic, and is understood by Muslims to be the literal word of God, not a human account of divine events.

Orthodoxy vs. Orthopraxy in Islam

While Western Christianity has emphasized right belief, Islam developed a rich tradition of orthopraxy, right practice. Reynolds explains how Islamic legal traditions (including what is often called Sharia) govern the smallest details of life, from how to wash before prayer to whether a man may shake a female colleague's hand. He draws lessons for Catholics about discipline, obligation, and what it means to take religious practice seriously.

"The Goal Is to Disagree Well"

Reynolds reframes interreligious dialogue: the goal isn't to find a lowest-common-denominator spirituality or to paper over real differences. It's to listen deeply, understand the coherence and beauty of another tradition, and still hold your own convictions. Islam's understanding of Jesus, as a prophet who simply paves the way for Muhammad, is dramatically different from Christianity's. And Reynolds thinks sitting with that difference, rather than dissolving it, is what genuine dialogue looks like.

Mysticism, Sufism, and Surprising Common Ground

Father John asks about mysticism, and Reynolds explores the Sufi tradition, the organized mystical path in Islam known as the tariqa. He also makes a more everyday point: for many Muslims, the five daily prayers are not going through the motions. The full prostration, the ritual washing, the surrender before God, there is a mystical dimension to ordinary Muslim prayer that has something to teach Catholics about the daily practice of faith.

How to Listen Without Agenda

Reynolds closes with a reflection on what makes real listening possible: friendship, or at minimum a disposition toward friendship. Citing Aquinas, "to love is to will the good of the other", he argues that deep listening requires us to set aside the instinct to prepare our rebuttal and instead seek to understand what motivates hundreds of millions of people in their daily religious lives.

ABOUT GABRIEL SAID REYNOLDS

Gabriel Said Reynolds is the Crowley Professor of Islamic Studies and Theology at the University of Notre Dame. A leading scholar of the Quran, his work focuses on reading the text within the religious world that produced it, one shaped by the Bible, late antiquity theology, and a shared search for God.

He earned his PhD from Yale University in 2003 and has published widely on the relationship between the Quran and earlier scriptures, including:

• The Quran and Its Biblical Subtext
• The Quran and the Bible
• Christianity and the Quran

Reynolds also serves as the general editor of the Yale Dictionary of the Quran and brings his scholarship to a broader audience through his YouTube channel, Exploring the Quran and the Bible. He has lectured internationally from Cairo to Oxford to New York City and was appointed by Pope Francis to serve on the Vatican's Dicastery for Interreligious Dialogue.

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"Islam, simply by being different, led me to reconsider things that American Christians often take for granted." — Gabriel Said Reynolds [10:58]

"The goal of interreligious dialogue, for me, is to disagree well." — Gabriel Said Reynolds [38:45]

"The Quran is not an Islamic Bible. The Bible is not a Christian Quran." — Gabriel Said Reynolds [26:30]

"For many Muslims, religion isn't something that happens an hour a week. It's woven into every moment of life." — Gabriel Said Reynolds [54:00]

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Gabriel Said Reynolds — University of Notre Dame Faculty Page
• YouTube Channel — Exploring the Quran and the Bible
• The Quran and Its Biblical Subtext — Gabriel Said Reynolds
• The Quran and the Bible — Gabriel Said Reynolds
• Christianity and the Quran — Gabriel Said Reynolds
• Yale Dictionary of the Quran — General Editor: Gabriel Said Reynolds
• Vatican's Dicastery for Interreligious Dialogue — Vatican Website
• The Righteous Mind — Jonathan Haidt (mentioned by Father John)
• Living Buddha, Living Christ — Thich Nhat Hanh (mentioned by Dave)
• Scriptural Reasoning — Interfaith movement involving Jews, Christians, and Muslims
• Pew Research Center — Referenced for U.S. Muslim population data
• Dignitatis Humanae — Vatican II document on religious freedom

What if God is closer to you than the ocean is to the fish? Sufi scholar and Duke University professor Omid Safi joins Religion to Reality for one of the most luminous conversations in the podcast’s history. Omid walks us through the heart of Islamic mysticism, not as doctrine, but as a living, breathing practice of radical love. From his childhood in Iran to the halls of Duke, from Rumi's prayer to the crisis of violence in the Middle East, this episode is an invitation to stop compartmentalizing your faith and start living it in every breath.

Note: Toward the end of this episode, Omid speaks candidly about violence in the Middle East, including recent events in Gaza and Iran. Sensitive listeners may wish to be aware.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

The heart of Islamic mysticism through the eyes of Sufi scholar Omid Safi, from the daily practice of dhikr (the remembrance of God) to Rumi's vision of prayer as a way of being, the unity beneath all world religions, and what it truly means to listen without agenda. Omid also speaks with unflinching honesty about violence, scripture, and the question every believer must ask: what would the prophets actually sanction today?

ABOUT OMID SAFI

Omid Safi is a professor of Islamic Studies at Duke University, specializing in Islamic spirituality and contemporary thought. Born in Florida and raised in Iran, Omid bridges two worlds as a teacher, author, and spiritual guide in the Sufi tradition of radical love. He is the founder of Illuminated Courses and Tours, which has brought more than 2,500 people from over 20 countries on spiritual journeys to Turkey and Morocco since 2002. His most recent book, Radical Love: Teachings from the Islamic Mystical Tradition, draws on the foundational texts of Sufism to offer a path of love-drenched, justice-inclined spirituality for the modern world. He has been mentored by luminaries, including the late Vincent Harding, a close friend of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"I prayed so often that my whole being has become a prayer. Now, whenever somebody sees my face, they start to pray." — Rumi, as quoted by Omid Safi [00:18:50]

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Radical Love: Teachings from the Islamic Mystical Tradition — Omid Safi's most recent book
• Illuminated Courses — Online courses, monthly gatherings, and in-person spiritual retreats open to all
• Dominion by Tom Holland — mentioned by host Dave Plisky in the discussion on the Western colonial labeling of world religions
• Abraham Joshua Heschel — the Jewish theologian and civil rights activist who deeply shaped Omid's understanding of Judaism
• ✊ Vincent Harding — scholar, activist, and close friend of Dr. King who mentored Omid in the liberationist tradition of Christianity
• David Foster Wallace's 2005 Kenyon College Commencement Address ("This Is Water") — referenced at [00:51:50] as a modern parallel to Rumi's fish metaphor
• ️ Previous episode: Dalia Mogahed on the Muslim Experience in America
• ️ Next episode: Gabriel Said Reynolds, Notre Dame professor of Islamic Studies, on what he learned from the Quran

What does it mean to be fully committed to your faith while building bridges across differences? In this episode of Religion to Reality, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with renowned Muslim scholar and author Dalia Mogahed for a thoughtful conversation on faith, identity, prayer, fasting, belonging, and interfaith dialogue. Dalia shares her journey from Egypt to America, how discovering Malcolm X shaped her identity as an American Muslim, and why listening without an agenda may be one of the greatest acts of love.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

Dalia Mogahed is one of the most respected voices on Islam, identity, and religious understanding in America today. As a researcher, author, public speaker, and former advisor to President Barack Obama, she has dedicated her career to fostering greater understanding between communities and challenging misconceptions about faith.

In this conversation, Dalia reflects on growing up between two cultures, embracing her Muslim identity, and discovering how faith can serve as a source of freedom rather than restriction. She discusses the meaning behind the hijab, the spiritual practices that shape Muslim life, and the transformative power of prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage.

The discussion also explores common misconceptions about Islam, the role of Jesus in Islamic belief, and the importance of approaching others with curiosity rather than judgment. Throughout the episode, Dalia offers profound insights that resonate far beyond religious boundaries, reminding us that authentic listening is essential for human connection.

ABOUT DALIA MOGAHED

Dalia Mogahed is a scholar at the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding (ISPU), CEO of Mogahed Consulting, and former Executive Director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies. She co-authored Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think with John L. Esposito, and served on President Barack Obama's Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. Her TED Talk on identity and belonging was named one of the top TED Talks of 2016. Dalia is also co-host of the Quran Conversations podcast.  

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"Listening without an agenda is about the most generous thing that one can do for another person."

"The only way to truly liberate ourselves is to surrender to God."

"You are not representing 1.5 billion people. You are representing yourself."

"The sense of obligation is part of the relief."

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think by Dalia Mogahed and John L. Esposito
• Dalia Mogahed's TED Talk: "What It's Like to Be Muslim in America"
• The Autobiography of Malcolm X
• Quran Conversations Podcast
• Institute for Social Policy and Understanding (ISPU)

Join us on Substack (http://religiontoreality.substack.com) for our free interfaith monthly gathering—first Wed of every month, including today!

What if our culture's obsession with forgiveness is actually getting in the way of healing? In this rich conversation, award-winning author and Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg challenges popular forgiveness culture, arguing that the real obligation falls on the person who caused harm, not the person who survived it. She walks us through the Jewish framework for repentance, repair, and amends (drawing on Maimonides) and unpacks why "cancel culture" and "forgiveness culture" are two sides of the same broken coin. We also hear from Rabbi Paul Sidlofsky of Temple Israel Tallahassee, who brings a deeply thoughtful perspective on disagreement within Judaism, the living nature of Torah interpretation, and how to hold tradition and change in creative tension. If you've ever wrestled with whether you have to forgive someone or wondered what accountability actually looks like, this episode is for you.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

On forgiveness: Forgiveness is not something a harmed person owes; it may be healing, but it is not obligatory, especially when the person who caused harm has not done the work of repair. Forgiveness and reconciliation are also not the same thing.

On repentance (per Maimonides): The person who caused harm must (1) fully own what they did, (2) do deep internal work to become someone who wouldn't repeat the harm, (3) make meaningful amends, and (4) apologize sincerely, up to three times, with an accountability team, before it can be considered their best effort.

On Torah: Jewish tradition has always been one of living interpretation. As Rabbi Sidlofsky puts it, "Halakha has a vote, but not a veto." Even Moses, in the famous Talmudic story, sat in Rabbi Akiva's classroom and couldn't understand his own books because the tradition had grown so richly beyond the original text.

ABOUT RABBI DANYA RUTTENBERG & RABBI PAUL SIDLOFSKY

Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg is the award-winning author of eight books and writes at lifeisasacredtext.com. Named by Newsweek as a "rabbi to watch" and recognized by the Center for American Progress as a faith leader to watch, she has written for The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, TIME, and many other major publications. Her commentary has appeared on NPR, CNN, NBC News, and Good Morning America. She led the Network of Rabbis for Repro during and after the landmark 2022 Supreme Court decision on abortion law and has played an active role in shaping Jewish responses to sexual misconduct and systemic injustice. Her book On Repentance and Repair is a must-read for anyone thinking about accountability culture.

Rabbi Paul Sidlofsky brings 38 years of congregational experience across the United States and Canada. Currently based in Tallahassee, Florida, he serves Temple Israel and is deeply engaged in interfaith work, including co-chairing the Cap Tallahassee Interfaith Clergy Council and participating in the God Squad with the Village Square. He is a warm and thoughtful voice on Torah interpretation, Jewish-Christian dialogue, and what it means to build an inclusive community.

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"If you cause harm, you have an obligation to clean it up — to truly own it fully in all the ways. And if you are harmed and your harm-doer has not done the work of repair and amends, you do not owe this person forgiveness at all." — Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• On Repentance and Repair by Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg — her book on the Jewish roadmap for accountability
• ✍️ Rabbi Danya's Substack: lifeisasacredtext.com
• Temple Israel Tallahassee: search "Temple Israel Tallahassee" for their website and contact
• Maimonides' Laws of Repentance (referenced throughout — the 12th-century framework Rabbi Danya draws on)
• Previous episode: Amy-Jill Levine on the Jewish Jesus — if you missed it, go back and listen
• Next episode: Dalia Mogahed on Islam — one of the top TED Talks of 2016

What does it mean to take the Incarnation seriously? According to AJ Levine, one of the most respected scholars of New Testament and Jewish Studies in the world, it means taking seriously the time, the place, and the people who first told those stories, and that starts with understanding the Jewish Jesus.

In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with AJ Levine for a conversation that is by turns surprising, funny, and deeply illuminating. Whether you're a lifelong Christian, a curious skeptic, or someone navigating the space between traditions, this episode will change the way you read the Gospels.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• How a seven-year-old Jewish girl decided to attend catechism and why it launched a career
• Why understanding Jesus's Jewish identity is actually a matter of Christian doctrine
• The woman at the well: why she's not a sinner, and why that matters
• The Parable of the Prodigal Son, and why making Judaism the villain misses the entire point
• What "Abba" actually means (and what it doesn't)
• How the same parable reads completely differently in Russia, Australia, Kenya, and the U.S.
• Why true interfaith dialogue requires disagreement — not a "kumbaya moment"
• What AJ does while listening to podcasts (it involves knitting)

ABOUT AMY JILL LEVINE

AJ Levine is Rabbi Stanley M. Kessler Distinguished Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies at Hartford International University for Religion and Peace, and University Professor of New Testament and Jewish Studies and Mary Jane Worthen Professor of Jewish Studies Emerita at Vanderbilt University.

She is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, recipient of the Seelisberg Prize for Jewish-Christian Relations and the H. Walter Award for Interfaith Cooperation, and the incoming president of the Catholic Biblical Association for 2026–2027.

Her books include:

• The Misunderstood Jew: The Church and the Scandal of the Jewish Jesus
• Short Stories by Jesus: The Enigmatic Parables of a Controversial Rabbi
• The Jewish Annotated New Testament (co-edited with Marc Brettler)
• The Bible With and Without Jesus: How Jews and Christians Read the Same Stories Differently (with Marc Brettler)
• Jesus for Everyone: Not Just for Christians
• And many more, including the Beginner's Guide series and six children's books with Sandy Sasso

AJ describes herself as "an unorthodox member of an Orthodox synagogue", someone who works to counter biblical interpretations that oppress and exclude.

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"The best outcome of this type of conversation is you become a better you because you're more aware of the strengths and weaknesses of your own tradition. You can interrogate your own tradition with questions that you might not have posed — because they're questions that somebody from the outside would see that you would not see." — AJ Levine

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• The Jewish Annotated New Testament — 3rd edition coming August 2025
• The Bible With and Without Jesus — AJ Levine & Marc Brettler
• Short Stories by Jesus — The Enigmatic Parables of a Controversial Rabbi
• Nostra Aetate — The Vatican II document on Jewish-Christian relations (60th anniversary, October 2025)
• Previous episode: Gabriel Reynolds on Islam and "disagreeing well" in interfaith dialogue

Samaritans still offering Passover sacrifices on Mount Gerizim — a living tradition

What does it mean to pray without ceasing? Can ordinary people actually do it? In this episode of Religion to Reality, prolific author and Orthodox Christian writer Frederica Mathewes-Green shares her remarkable spiritual journey: from a devout Catholic childhood to atheistic hippie, to a dramatic conversion in a Dublin church, to 50+ years of daily unceasing prayer. She also opens up about leaving the Episcopal Church, the beauty of Orthodox liturgy, and why she believes spiritual loneliness is one of the great unspoken crises of our time.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE 

• How a young Catholic woman lost her faith, explored Eastern religions, and unexpectedly encountered Christ in Dublin.
• Federica’s dramatic conversion experience and the voice she believes changed her life.
• How Federica and Gregory’s marriage became a path back to faith from atheism to the priesthood.
• Why liberal theology accelerated church decline and weakened belief in core Christian teachings.
• Gregory’s journey from Episcopal priest to Orthodox priest after leaving an increasingly secular church.
• Why they left Catholicism for Orthodoxy and what liturgical worship revealed about humanity’s need for transcendence.
• What God’s detailed instructions for worship in Exodus teach us about icons, beauty, and sacred art today.
• The difference between liturgy and worship, and why Orthodox worship centers entirely on God.
• The Jesus Prayer: its origins, spiritual benefits, and Federica’s practical guide to praying it.
• What nearly 50 years of daily 3:00 AM prayer has taught Gregory about discipline and devotion.
• Catholic diversity vs. Orthodox unity, and why reunion between the two traditions is more complex than it seems.
• Federica’s advice on listening well, asking better questions, and meeting the deep human need to be heard.

ABOUT FEDERICA MATHEWS-GREEN

Frederica Mathewes-Green is one of the most prolific voices in American Christian writing, with over 800 published essays and 11 books to her name. Her work has appeared in The Washington Post, Christianity Today, The Wall Street Journal, First Things, and Smithsonian. She has been a commentator for NPR, a podcaster for Ancient Faith Radio, and a consultant for VeggieTales. A sought-after speaker, she has delivered more than 600 presentations at institutions including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Cornell, and has been interviewed over 800 times by outlets including NPR, PBS, Time, Newsweek, and The New York Times. She holds an honorary Doctor of Letters from King University and lives in Johnson City, Tennessee with her husband, the Reverend Gregory Mathewes-Green. They have three grown children and 15 grandchildren.

MEMORABLE QUOTE

“Stay alive and keep praying. In time, it becomes second nature, and you realize that He is responding when you invoke His name, and you sense that communion with Him.” — Frederica Mathewes-Green

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence: The foundational devotional book on unceasing prayer that shaped Frederica’s prayer life. She first read it as a young Christian.
• The Jesus Prayer (“Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me”): Developed by the Desert Fathers from the 2nd century onward; rooted in 1 Thessalonians 5:17 (“Pray without ceasing”).
• 1 Thessalonians 5:17: The scriptural basis for the practice of unceasing prayer, which Paul also addressed to the Romans, Ephesians, and Colossians.
• Exodus 25: God’s detailed instructions to Moses for building the Tabernacle — gold, embroidery, bells, pomegranates, and carved cherubim — Frederica’s go-to passage on the importance of sacred beauty.
• Feminists for Life: The pro-life organization where Frederica served as vice president beginning in 1989, which launched her public writing and speaking career.
• Ancient Faith Radio: The Orthodox Christian podcast network where Frederica has been a podcaster.
• Jonathan Pageau: Iconographer and cultural commentator; mutual friend of Frederica’s and Jordan Peterson’s, who connected them at Frederica’s childhood church in Charleston.
• The Anglican Ordinariate: The Catholic structure that received Anglican clergy and congregations; now shepherds Frederica’s childhood parish, St. Mary’s in Charleston, preserving its historic beauty.

What if listening to someone isn't just a bridge to telling them something, but is itself a formative, sacred act? Sociologist and researcher Josh Packard returns to Religion to Reality to unpack groundbreaking data on the intersection of faith and listening, challenge Catholics to truly live out the concept of accompaniment, and offer an honest outside-in assessment of where the Church is falling short, and where it's quietly thriving.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• Why two-thirds of people say listening shaped their faith, but the Church has invested almost nothing in ministries of listening
• The difference between knowing the Catholic concept of accompaniment and actually doing it
• How over-professionalized youth ministry has quietly outsourced the most important relationships
• Why the digital missionary space may be the most significant untapped opportunity in Catholic outreach
• What "cultural Catholics" might actually be getting right that formal church structures are missing

ABOUT JOSH PACKARD

Josh Packard is a sociologist of religion and the founder of Future of Faith, a research and consulting organization helping churches move from institutional ministry to relational ministry at scale. He is a former sociology professor and co-founder of Springtide Research Institute, and has also served at the National Catholic Educational Association. His work includes the Sacred Listening Study, to his knowledge, the only research in the world examining the intersection of faith formation and listening, as well as the recently released book Faithful Futures. Josh is a Lutheran who has built his career crossing denominational boundaries to serve Catholic, Protestant, and ecumenical audiences alike.

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"I don't think you can understand what we mean when we say listening is sacred if you do not feel like you have a God who has listened to you, and that you've also listened to." — Josh Packard

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Future of Faith — futureoffaith.org
• Relational Discipleship White Paper — futureoffaith.org/relationaldiscipleship
• Sacred Listening Tools (free download) — available at futureoffaith.org
• Book: Faithful Futures by Josh Packard
• Every Student Sent — ministry connecting high school graduates to campus believers in their first week of college (based in Texas)
• Springtide Research Institute — springtideresearch.org
• Religion to Reality Season 1 with Josh Packard — available in the back catalog and as a bonus episode
• John Gribowich's Substack: Going Analog — johngribowich.substack.com

What does it actually mean for a 2,000-year-old institution to learn how to listen? In this season premiere of Religion to Reality, multimedia journalist and America Magazine podcast director Sebastian Gomes joins hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich to unpack the Synod on Synodality, Pope Francis's sweeping effort to transform the Catholic Church into a culture of genuine listening. If you've ever wondered whether the Church is really changing, or felt frustrated that it isn't changing fast enough, this conversation will challenge and encourage you.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• "The message is not getting through, so maybe we should listen instead." Sebastian traces Pope Francis's pivotal shift from speaking to listening, and why it took 12 years of declining church membership to get there. (16:00)
• Synodality is not a program, it's a culture. Sebastian explains why treating the synodal process like a church initiative is the most common misunderstanding people have, and what it actually means to change how an institution listens. (22:45)
• What people finally said when they felt safe. From women's voices to LGBT experiences to stories of poverty and marginalization, Sebastian describes the dramatic moments inside the synod hall when people said what they'd never felt free to say before. (30:30)
• The clergy problem. The most common frustration Sebastian hears from parishioners isn't about Rome, it's about their own pastor. He reflects honestly on why priests and bishops are often the biggest obstacle, and what to do about it. (25:00)
• Synodality is coming whether you like it or not. Using the analogy of the early internet, Sebastian makes the case that synodal culture will eventually shape every debate in the Church, from liturgy to parish closings to outreach to young people. (38:30)
• The Gen Z Catholic revival and why it's complicated. Hundreds of new converts entered the Church this Easter, making national news. Sebastian offers a nuanced take: it's real, it's notable, and it doesn't mean what you might think it means. (51:45)
• You can't become synodal by just reading about it. Sebastian reflects on the personal and spiritual dimensions of synodality, and why you actually have to do it in community before it can transform your prayer life. (46:30)

ABOUT SEBASTIAN GOMES

Sebastian Gomes is a multimedia journalist and the director of podcast and video production at America Magazine, the Jesuit Review. He holds a BA and MA in theology and history from St. John's University in Minnesota.

His media career began in 2012 at Salt + Light Catholic Media in Toronto, where he produced award-winning documentaries, including The Francis Effect and The Francis Impact. In 2022, he wrote and directed People of God, America's first feature documentary on the state of parish life across the United States.

Sebastian led America's coverage of the 2023–24 Rome gatherings of the Synod on Synodality and the 2025 papal election of Pope Leo XIV. He oversees America's weekly podcast portfolio, including Jesuitical, Inside the Vatican, and The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin.

He is based in Kingston, Ontario, Canada, and contributes regularly to americamagazine.org.

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"Synodality is not a program. It's a culture. And resistance to synodality is also, in some ways, a resistance to the Holy Spirit — a lack of faith that God is actually present in our midst when we're together as a community." — Sebastian Gomes

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• America Magazine — Sebastian's home publication, the Jesuit Review
• Jesuitical Podcast — America's flagship podcast for young Catholics
• Inside the Vatican Podcast — America's Vatican coverage in podcast form
• The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin — Weekly podcast from one of the Church's most prominent voices
• Salt + Light Catholic Media — Canada's national Catholic media organization, where Sebastian began his career
• People of God (2022) — Sebastian's documentary on parish life in the U.S. (available through America Media)
• Nostra Aetate — The Vatican II document on the Church's relationship to other religions, central to Season 2's mission
• The Final Document of the Synod on Synodality — The result of the global consultation and Rome gatherings Sebastian covered
• Join our monthly interfaith gathering — Sign up at religiontoreality.substack.com
•  Follow Fr. John on Substack — Going Analog at johngribowich.substack.com

What does the data actually say about how Catholics live their faith today, and who counts as "active"? In this episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Fr. Thomas Gaunt, SJ, Executive Director of CARA (the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate) at Georgetown University, to dig into 60 years of Catholic research. They explore why inactive Catholics still fiercely identify as Catholic, what a year of volunteer service does to marriage stability and vocations, and why radical listening—not big campaigns—may be the most powerful tool the Church has. If you work in parish ministry, Catholic education, or simply want to understand the real state of the faith in America, this conversation will challenge and inspire you. 

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• Why 30% of self-identified Catholics never attend Mass, yet refuse to stop calling themselves Catholic
• CARA's consistent finding that "care for the poor" ranks #2 in what Catholics say defines their faith
• The surprising discovery that 60% of young adult Catholics (18–35) are involved in faith-based activities outside Mass
• Why the divorce rate among Jesuit Volunteer Corps alumni was 2% vs. ~12% for comparable peers
• How 10–11% of male Catholic volunteers later entered seminary or religious life
• The massive demographic churn in the Catholic population, including that 1 in 4 U.S. Catholics is a foreign-born immigrant
• Why parish revitalization campaigns need to first ask the parish itself to change
• How radical welcome (e.g., parking lot ministers, easy websites, a real person answering the phone) does more than any grand strategy
• What Pope Francis's "arm around the shoulder" posture means for pastoral leadership
• Why listening without an agenda may be the most prophetic Christian witness in an age of polarization

ABOUT FR. THOMAS GAUNT, SJ

Fr. Thomas Gaunt is a Jesuit priest with 53 years in the Society of Jesus and 43 years of ordained ministry. He holds a doctoral degree in city planning from the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill — making him a proud Tar Heel. He spent his early priesthood as a pastor and Director of Planning for the Diocese of Charlotte, NC, before serving as Formation Director for the Jesuits of the East and Executive Secretary of the Jesuit national office. For the past 14 years, he has served as Executive Director of CARA — the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate — located at Georgetown University in Washington, DC. His research specialties include priesthood and religious life, the impact of volunteer service on young adults, and international Catholic research.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• CARA — Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate
• The CARA Report (Substack)
• CARA Book: Faith and Spiritual Life of Young Adult Catholics
• Catholic Volunteer Network
• Jesuit Volunteer Corps
• Nativity Parish / Rebuilt (Timonium, MD)
• Vinea Research (Hans Plate)
• Religion to Reality — DeSales Media Discipleship Study 

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"The most radical way to live the Christian life right now is to become a listener without an agenda."

— Fr. John Gribowich

EPISODE TIMESTAMPS

Use these timestamps to jump to the moments that matter most to you:

• [00:00:00] Introduction — Fr. Tom Gaunt introduces himself: 53 years as a Jesuit, 43 as a priest, doctoral degree in city planning from UNC Chapel Hill, and 14 years as Executive Director of CARA.
• [00:02:30] What is the CARA Report? — A 30-year-old quarterly publication targeting bishops, pastors, and parish leaders. Available in print and on Substack. CARA itself just celebrated its 60th anniversary.
• [00:04:00] Discipleship & Expressive Fruits — Dave and Fr. Tom discuss the DeSales Media discipleship study findings around corporal and spiritual works of mercy, and how question framing affects data interpretation.
• [00:06:30] Care for the Poor as a Catholic Value — CARA data shows "care for the poor" consistently ranks #2 in what Catholics say matters most about their faith — across all Mass attendance levels.
• [00:08:00] Segmenting Active vs. Inactive Catholics — How CARA defines "active" Catholics and what happens to faith-related attitudes as Mass attendance decreases (but doesn't disappear).
• [00:10:00] The Catholic Identity Paradox — Why ~30% of self-identified Catholics never attend Mass, yet still firmly call themselves Catholic — and how this differs sharply from Protestant denominations.
• [00:13:00] "It's in the Water" — Fr. John reflects on his high school students in San Francisco who write about their Catholic identity even though they don't practice. What makes the indelible mark truly indelible?
• [00:15:00] Young Adult Catholics & Mass Attendance — CARA's national survey of 18–35-year-olds found regular Mass attendance around 15%, but 60% reported being involved in other faith-based activities. A stunning finding.
• [00:17:30] Why Young People Don't Come to Mass — Schedule, boredom, not feeling welcome. And a generational shift: many younger Catholics no longer see weekly Mass as an obligation of faith.
• [00:20:00] Belonging, Welcome, and Parish Mobility — One in four U.S. Catholics is a foreign-born immigrant. There has been a massive movement of Catholics from northeast/midwest to south and west. Parishes must be dynamically welcoming communities, not stable ones.
• [00:23:30] The Eucharist as Community — Fr. Tom and Fr. John explore the danger of individualizing the sacraments and whether Catholics understand Mass as a communal celebration rather than a personal spiritual transaction.
• [00:26:00] Reviewing the DeSales Study — Fr. Tom notes the study skews female, older, white, and more politically conservative than the general Mass-attending Catholic population — important context for interpreting results.
• [00:31:30] Volunteer Service Research — CARA's landmark studies on the Jesuit Volunteer Corps and the Catholic Volunteer Network: what one year of service does to a person a decade or two later.
• [00:33:00] Prayer, Reflection, and Community — The two elements from volunteer service that remained most significant ten and twenty years later: structured prayer/reflection and community experience.
• [00:34:30] The Marriage Stability Finding — Among former Jesuit volunteers, the divorce rate was just 2% vs. ~12% for peers with similar education and demographics. Replicated across multiple independent studies. Two explanations: learning to live simply and value clarity.
• [00:38:30] Vocations from Volunteer Programs — In the Catholic Volunteer Network study across 60+ groups: 2% of women had entered a novitiate; 10–11% of men had entered a seminary or novitiate. Fr. Tom's advice to Archbishop Kurtz: visit volunteer communities and encourage vocations.
• [00:44:00] Self-Selection and Faith Engagement — Volunteers are already generous, faith-serious young adults. Their Mass attendance (50%+) far exceeds their peers (~25%). Volunteer service strengthens what is already there.
• [00:45:00] The Implication of Shifting Catholic Identity — If Catholics increasingly define active faith through service rather than Sunday Mass, what does the future Church look like? Fr. Tom: "In the long run, not good" — but the solution is welcome and inclusion, not judgment.
• [00:46:00] Parish Campaigns That Ask Us to Change — Fr. Tom's rule: if a revitalization campaign doesn't ask the parish itself to change, he's suspicious of it. Rebuilt parish (Nativity in Timonium, MD) as a model of radical welcome, including parking lot ministers.
• [00:48:30] Meeting Catholics Where They Are — Stories from North Carolina of Spanish-language Masses for field workers, and Houston parishes overwhelmed with young transplant families who quietly slip away due to friction, not rejection.
• [00:53:30] The Customer Journey of Faith — Meeting people at every touchpoint: the parking lot, the phone call, the website. Fr. John: pastoral infrastructure failures (hard-to-find pastor info, unclear websites) drive people away.
• [00:55:00] "Does the Campaign Ask Me to Change?" — Dave reflects on how this posture of internal conversion is rare — and only works in a context of trust and genuine community.
• [00:56:30] Listening as Research — Fr. Tom on CARA's approach: no agenda, just data. How post-research Zoom sessions with bishops and parish staffs generate the richest pastoral conversations — when the researchers simply listen to what people make of the findings.
• [01:00:00] Ash Wednesday & the Thin Thread of Identity — Even non-attending Catholics show up for ashes. Rather than dismissing this, Fr. Tom sees it as pastoral data: the thread of identity is real and worth engaging.
• [01:01:00] Radical Listening as the Prophetic Act — Fr. John's synthesis: in an age of polarization, listening without agenda — in research, in parish life, in relationships — may be the most distinctly Christian witness available right now.
• [01:02:00] Pope Francis and the Arm Around the Shoulder — Fr. Tom on the posture Francis models: not pointing fingers, but walking alongside. Doctrine doesn't change, but the relational posture changes everything.
• [01:03:00] CARA's Credibility — Built over 60 years by not advocating. Church leaders across the spectrum trust CARA precisely because the data comes without spin. Hans Plate of Vinea Research affirms this quality.
• [01:07:00] Baptism Is Real — Even Catholics who never attend church intuitively know: if they call the parish, someone will come. That thin but enduring thread of belonging — rooted in baptism — is something the Church uniquely offers.
• [01:08:30] Closing — Outro with information on subscribing, ratings, reviews, and visiting religiontoreality.org.

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Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

What does hard data reveal about the state of Catholic life in America—and what does it mean for the future of the Church? In this bonus episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Stephen White, Executive Director of The Catholic Project at The Catholic University of America, for a candid and wide-ranging conversation. Stephen draws on the landmark 2022 National Study of Catholic Priests—the largest priest survey in half a century—to explore trust, identity, community, and what it really takes to renew the Church from within.

From the tension between clericalism and lay vocation, to the striking generational shifts among young priests, to the question of how genuine renewal actually happens in Church history, this episode offers both serious analysis and hopeful insight. Whether you’re a priest, a committed lay Catholic, or simply trying to understand where the Church is headed, this conversation will challenge and encourage you. 

ABOUT STEPHEN WHITE

Stephen White is the Executive Director of The Catholic Project at The Catholic University of America in Washington, DC. Founded in 2019 in response to the clerical abuse crisis, The Catholic Project works to foster collaboration and co-responsibility between clergy and laity. Stephen led the production of the acclaimed documentary podcast Crisis: Clergy Abuse in the Catholic Church and oversaw the 2022 National Study of Catholic Priests. His background is in Catholic social teaching and philosophy, and he writes frequently on matters of faith, culture, and Church life.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

1. The Catholic Project and the Crisis Podcast

• Founded in 2019 at Catholic University of America in response to the McCarrick revelations and Pennsylvania Grand Jury Report
• The Crisis podcast was produced during COVID, featuring deeply reported audio documentary-style episodes
• Goal: face the Church’s failures honestly while remaining constructive and rooted in love for the Church
• Fr. John shares that the podcast was part of his own healing journey as a survivor of clerical sexual abuse

2. The 2022 National Study of Catholic Priests

• The largest survey of priests in the United States in over 50 years
• Key findings include:
  
  
  • Younger priests (ordained post-2000) describe themselves as significantly more theologically orthodox than older cohorts
  • Younger priests are more likely to identify as politically moderate — cutting against simple “conservative priest” narratives
  • The youngest cohort is the most racially and ethnically diverse
  • There has been a dramatic collapse in priests identifying as liberal or progressive
  • Younger priests experience more isolation: many are sole pastor of a parish from day one of ordination
• A follow-up longitudinal study is currently in development for spring 2025

3. Clericalism, Authority, and Church Renewal

• Clericalism is not only a top-down problem — bottom-up clericalism (laity expecting clergy to do everything) is widespread in the US
• Pope Francis has simultaneously called out clericalism and warned against “clericalizing the laity”
• All authority carries the potential for abuse; the response is vigilance, formation, and accountability — not the elimination of hierarchy
• The Church’s vertical (hierarchical) and horizontal (communal) dimensions must work together

4. How Genuine Church Renewal Happens

• Historically, renewal almost never comes from the top down institutionally
• It begins with one person or small group responding radically to the Gospel (e.g., St. Francis, St. Ignatius)
• The person responding faithfully rarely sees the full fruit of their response — God builds from there
• Activism and discipleship must not be confused; the foundation is faithful response, not organizational strategy

5. Compartmentalized Faith and Transactional Spirituality

• R2R study finding: Mass-attending Catholics rate themselves strongest in sacramental life and weakest in “expressive fruits” — corporal and spiritual works of mercy
• Stephen identifies a “drive-thru sacrament factory” model of parish life as a root cause
• Parishes are often transaction points rather than communities of formation
• The solution requires formation that integrates the sacramental life with active charity and mission

6. Family as the Primary Formative Institution

• The family has historically been the most decisive place of Catholic formation
• Seminary training and CCD are insufficient on their own — the intuitive transmission of faith happens at home
• Current weakness of the family is one of the most underappreciated crises in the Church
• The same challenges facing priestly formation are deeply connected to challenges in family formation 

7. Generational Dynamics and Faith Sharing

• R2R study finding: Younger Catholics are more likely to cite barriers to sharing their faith
• Top barriers among younger generations: situational appropriateness, lack of confidence, not knowing how to start conversations, fear of offending
• This mirrors interpersonal skill gaps noted among younger seminary candidates — a generational, not just ecclesial, challenge
• Younger Catholics also show a stronger desire for in-person community despite being the “digital generation”

8. Community: What It Is and Isn’t

• True community is not built around shared content — it uses content as a starting point for gathering real people
• Stephen’s book club example: the books rotate, but the community of Catholic dads is the constant
• Digital and online communities have real value but are limited replacements for in-person, face-to-face belonging
• The goal of intentional faith communities is to create environments where virtue becomes habitual — not a constant max-effort struggle

TOPICS BY TIMECODE

• [00:00] Introduction — Dave and Fr. John welcome Stephen White and introduce the Catholic Project
• [01:00] The founding of the Catholic Project in 2019 — responding to the abuse crisis under CUA president John Garvey
• [02:30] Building the Crisis podcast during COVID — the challenge, the team, and why it mattered
• [07:30] John shares his personal story as a survivor of clerical sexual abuse and how the Crisis podcast contributed to his own healing
• [10:00] Connecting the abuse crisis to the 2022 Priests Study — generational trends and the conservative shift in seminarians
• [11:00] John raises a key concern: Does a clerically-centric, theologically orthodox Church inadvertently enable abuse and power imbalances?
• [12:30] Stephen’s response: All authority can be abused — the answer is vigilance, not eliminating hierarchy
• [14:00] Pope Francis, clericalism, and the call to not “clerical­ize the laity” — the vertical and horizontal dimensions of Church structure
• [16:30] John: Feeling “homeless” in a Church polarized between traditionalism and progressivism
• [18:00] What does authentic renewal look like? Historical examples: St. Francis of Assisi and St. Ignatius of Loyola
• [21:00] The danger of top-down institutional reform — why genuine renewal almost always comes from below
• [24:00] Discipleship vs. activism: The risk of “professionalizing” Catholic identity
• [26:30] Bottom-up clericalism: How lay Catholics can inadvertently perpetuate the problem by expecting clergy to do all the work
• [29:00] Transactional spirituality and the sacramental model — why the compartmentalized faith life persists
• [31:00] Connecting the R2R study findings: Catholics feel strong in sacramental life but weakest in “expressive fruits” — works of charity and mercy
• [33:00] Formation, vocation, and the role of family as the primary formative institution in the Church
• [38:00] John departs; Dave and Stephen continue on community, parish engagement, and the Assemblies of God comparison
• [41:00] Stephen and his wife raising four children — the role of intentional faith communities in everyday family life
• [43:00] Virtue, habit, and the goal of “lower effort” discipleship over time
• [46:00] The risk of insularity: Building a faith community without becoming a bubble
• [49:00] Comparing the R2R and Catholic Project studies: Generational differences in community desire, faith sharing barriers, and interpersonal skills
• [52:00] Young priests and isolation: How shrinking numbers mean more priests are now solo pastors from day one
• [54:00] Generational data on priests: Younger cohorts are more orthodox, more politically moderate, and more racially diverse
• [55:30] Why are progressive or liberal men less likely to enter the priesthood today? Dave’s theory on political identity and vocations
• [58:00] Gen Z priests and interpersonal skill gaps — and what this reveals about broader formation challenges for young men
• [1:02:00] R2R study finding: Younger generations report more barriers to sharing their faith — lack of confidence, social skills, and fear of offending
• [1:04:00] What priests wish their bishops would do differently — and why “one size fits all” pastoral approaches fail
• [1:07:00] The importance of personal prayer and discernment as the foundation beneath any program or system
• [1:08:00] How the Catholic Project communicated its study data — lessons in releasing findings in digestible, engaging formats
• [1:12:00] Why a podcast? The case for long-form audio documentary as the right vehicle for the abuse crisis story
• [1:16:00] Unanswered questions: What Stephen most wants to know about Catholic life in America
• [1:18:00] What kinds of cultures and communities tend to produce healthy vocations — to priesthood and to marriage
• [1:20:00] The significance of the “fencesitter” Catholic: the 11% attending monthly but not weekly
• [1:23:00] Jesuit Volunteer Corps data: 98% of participants who marry stay married
• [1:24:00] Digital vs. in-person community: Stephen’s honest skepticism about online faith communities
• [1:28:00] Book clubs, real community, and why shared content is a starting point, not the foundation
• [1:30:00] Closing reflections and sign-off

RESOURCES & LINKS

• The Catholic Project at The Catholic University of America
• Crisis: Clergy Abuse in the Catholic Church — Podcast
• National Study of Catholic Priests (2022)
• Religion to Reality — Full Research Report
• Jesuit Volunteer Corps: jesuitvolunteers.org
• Pew Research on Catholic Mass attendance in the US 

CONNECT WITH US 

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Follow us on social media. Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show! Send us your questions and feedback.

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

In a world marked by noise, division, and constant distraction, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich return to the heart of the podcast’s mission: living an integrated life where faith isn’t separated from the rest of who we are. Reflecting on Season 1, they explore how one theme kept surfacing again and again—listening as a sacred act.

This upcoming season builds on that foundation, asking:

How do we become bridge builders with no agenda?
How do we recognize God already at work in the person in front of us?

Inspired by the spirit of Vatican II and the Church’s call to encounter and dialogue, Season 2 features conversations with voices across Christian communities and other faith traditions—not to debate or convert, but to listen.

New episodes begin June 1, with weekly releases every Monday.

What does it really mean for the Church to walk together — and what do Catholics in Brooklyn actually say they need? Fr. Joseph Gibino, pastor, vicar, deacon director, and co-director of Brooklyn's Synod on Synodality, pulls back the curtain on what the faithful are really asking for, and why the answer might surprise you. From family prayer to sacramental living to the radical act of listening without an agenda, this conversation is a hopeful, grounded look at where the Church is headed.

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• "The synod was never about divisive political issues — it was about how we journey together as the Body of Christ." (00:05:30)
• The three things Catholics in Brooklyn said they needed most — and how they mirror what the English-speaking world was saying (00:02:30)
• Why Fr. Joe says "listen" and "silent" share the same letters — and what that means for the Church (00:11:00)
• How family catechesis could be the key to reinvigorating the institutional Church (00:16:00)
• The simple prayer Fr. Joe says every morning before his feet hit the floor (00:37:30)
• Why today's teenagers love service — and what that tells us about where the Spirit is moving (00:44:30)
• Fr. John Gribowich on why we're in a "liminal" moment in Church history — and Fr. Joe's stunning response (00:57:00)
• "The Eucharist is not a reward for good behavior." What it really is — and why that changes everything (00:59:30)

ABOUT FR. JOE GIBINO

Fr. Joseph Gibino is pastor of St. Charles Borromeo Parish in Brooklyn Heights and administrator of St. James Cathedral. He serves the Diocese of Brooklyn as Vicar for Evangelization and Catechesis, Director of the Permanent Diaconate Program, and co-directed the Diocese's Synod on Synodality alongside Sister Mary Ann Seton LoPiccolo. He is also adjunct faculty at St. Joseph's Seminary and — by his own description — the diocese's chief "party planner" and wildfire put-outer.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• Synod on Synodality – Vatican Overview
• Diocese of Brooklyn
• Jubilee of Hope 2025 – Vatican
• Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe — referenced in the context of Latino Catholic communities shaping Brooklyn's pastoral identity
• Ignatian Examen (Nightly Examination of Conscience) — recommended by Fr. Joe as a nightly practice
• Neocatechumenal Way / ecclesial movements are mentioned as models for family faith formation
• Knights of Columbus — highlighted for their service work during the pandemic and with immigrant communities in Brooklyn

Start Praying as a Family — Where to Begin

Fr. Joe offers this simple on-ramp for families who feel disconnected from faith at home:

• Start with gratitude, not religion: "What are we thankful for today?"
• Try an Advent giving jar — brainstorm 30 simple acts of generosity as a family before December 1st
• Don't underestimate small acts: donating a meal's worth of money to a food bank, buying tube socks for a homeless shelter
• Evaluate at Christmas: How did we do?

The Three Things Brooklyn Catholics Said They Need

1. Better adult faith formation — people don't feel equipped to share their faith
2. More support for youth and young adult faith formation
3. Greater collaboration and consultation with the clergy

MEMORABLE QUOTE

"The fruit of good listening is the Holy Spirit — because until we drown out all the other voices, how can we hear the authentic voice of the Spirit?" — Fr. Joe Gibino (00:13:00)

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

 Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Follow us on social media. 

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback to podcast@desalesmedia.org.

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality. 

What if the biggest obstacle to ministry isn't a lack of resources, programs, or content — but a missing system for actually knowing the people in front of you?

In this bonus episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Josh Packard, sociologist of religion and co-founder of Future of Faith, for a wide-ranging conversation about one of the most urgent challenges facing the Church today: how to do genuine relational ministry at scale.

Drawing on years of research data and his experience at Spring Tide Research Institute and NCEA, Josh explains why trust in institutions is collapsing — and why the only antidote is time spent in a real, consistent relationship. He introduces practical tools anyone can download free at futureoffaith.org, shares why Gen Z isn't "leaving the church" (their parents already did), and makes a compelling case for why AI will only make human connection more, not less, essential.

If you work in ministry, Catholic education, or any field that depends on reaching young people, this episode is required listening.

ABOUT JOSH PACKARD

Josh Packard is a sociologist of religion and a former professor at the University of Northern Colorado, where he taught applied sociology. He was the founding executive director of Spring Tide Research Institute, one of the most respected sources of data on youth and faith in the United States. He is now co-founder of Future of Faith, a nonprofit dedicated to helping ministry leaders build scalable relational tools grounded in a theology of sacred listening.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:

1. Trust has collapsed — and that changes everything
2. Relational ministry needs a system, not just good intentions
3. The Text to Connect tool
4. Belonging before believing — and time before truth
5. Gen Z didn't leave — they were never there
6. The Church's strongest offering may be its most overlooked
7. AI will deepen — not solve — the relational challenge

 

• 0:00 — Introduction: Who is Josh Packard, and what is Future of Faith?
• 2:15 — The Core Problem: How do you do relational ministry at scale when people only trust what's right in front of them?
• 5:30 — The Free Tools: What the Future of Faith listening tools are and how to download them at futureoffaith.org.
• 10:30 — Text to Connect: A step-by-step walkthrough of the emoji-based check-in tool — and how a color-coded Google Sheet can transform youth ministry.
• 14:00 — The Youth Minister's Dilemma: A real-world portrait of a minister running on voice memos, Apple Notes, and reactive attention.
• 20:00 — Sacred Listening vs. Ministry with an Agenda: John challenges Josh: can you really listen without an end in mind?
• 23:30 — Time, Trust, Truth: The framework that flips the church's traditional approach: belonging before believing.
• .31:00 — Tarot, Crystals, and the Spiritual-but-not-Religious: Why young people are finding spiritual systems on TikTok that the Church hasn't figured out how to offer.
• 39:00 — Young People Aren't Leaving the Church: Josh pushes back: their parents left. The generation the Church is trying to reach was never there.
• 42:00 — The Church Is Answering Questions Nobody Is Asking: John on the disconnect between pulpit priorities and what young people actually need.
• 57:00 — AI and the Future of Trust: Why artificial intelligence will push the locus of trust lower — toward one-on-one relationships — and what that means for the Church.

MEMORABLE QUOTES

For sharing on social media or in your community:

"I want to be useful, not interesting. — Josh Packard"

"Belonging comes before believing. It goes time, trust, truth. — Josh Packard"

"The church is often answering questions that nobody is asking. — Fr. John"

"They're not leaving the church. Their parents left. — Josh Packard"

"There are armies of PhDs who are not trying to make Instagram better. They're trying to make you look at Instagram more. — Josh Packard"

"If we spend enough time with you, if we get to know you, if we're in a relationship with you, we can build trust with you — and then I can get to share with you the truth that is so beautiful that I want you to know. — Josh Packard"

 RESOURCES & LINKS

Future of Faith

futureoffaith.org

Sign up for the newsletter to receive updates on new tools and research. (Josh guarantees it will contain the most emojis of any newsletter you receive this year.)

ORGANIZATIONS MENTIONED

• Spring Tide Research Institute — National data on youth and faith
• NCEA — National Catholic Educational Association
• Rooted Good / Gone for Good — Church property reinvention (Mark Elson)
• Bricks and Mortals — Sacred spaces reimagined (Kate Toth, New York City)
• Young Life — Parachurch outreach model, including the folding table approach
• Hallow — Catholic prayer and meditation app
• com — Interdenominational prayer app

RESEARCH REFERENCED

• National Study of Youth and Religion (Christian Smith, Notre Dame) — Source of the "moralistic therapeutic deism" framework
• Future of Faith listening and faith formation study — results forthcoming January 2025
• DeSales Media Discipleship Study — referenced throughout, showing Gen Z's desire for in-person community and lower rates of personal prayer

PEOPLE MENTIONED

• Megan Bissell — Co-founder, Future of Faith
• Kedrin (Potter's House, Dallas) — Developer of the time/trust/truth framework
• Alessandro — Upcoming guest on the Religion to Reality webinar series
• Shannon Hopkins — Key figure at Rooted Good with UK church experience

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform

Follow us on social media 

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

What happens when the Church you love has also hurt you? For many Catholics, there's no safe space to hold both truths at once, until now. In this powerful bonus episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich talk with Paul Fahey, licensed counselor, catechist, and host of the Third Space Podcast, to unpack what spiritual abuse really looks like, why so many Catholics unknowingly surrender their freedom, and how genuine listening may be the most prophetic act the Church can offer right now. 

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

• Spiritual abuse — coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context — is far more widespread than most Catholics realize.
• Claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, or presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, are clear markers of spiritual coercion.
• The desire to surrender freedom to rules or authority is deeply human and easily exploited. Mature faith requires owning one's conscience.
• Using "the devil" as a scapegoat can itself become a mechanism of harm. True discernment leads to solidarity, not deflection.
• Success in ministry is not measured by numbers, but by whether someone experiences encounter, gains language for their experience, and knows they are not alone.
• The most prophetic gift Christians can offer today may simply be listening — without an agenda.

[00:00] — Introducing Paul Fahey Paul shares his background: eight years as a parish Director of Religious Education, husband and father of five, and now a licensed counselor in Michigan.

[01:30] — From Pope Francis Generation to The Third Space Paul co-founded the Pope Francis Generation Podcast with Dominic Dusa of Smart Catholics after unexpectedly leaving his parish job. As his work with abuse survivors deepened, he began noticing gaps between Pope Francis' teaching on human dignity and his governing decisions — prompting a full rebrand toward a podcast centered on Christ in the vulnerable and marginalized.

[06:00] — What Is "The Third Space"? Inspired by a conversation with mentor Monica Pope, Paul identified a void: survivors of Church harm are met either with Catholic defensiveness or with "why do you even stay?" The Third Space holds both — a place for people who want congruence between their experience of harm and their experience of good in the Church.

[07:45] — Who Is This Podcast For? Survivors of clerical sexual abuse, yes — but also the much broader category of spiritual abuse. Paul cites research from Dr. Lisa Oakley (UK) suggesting roughly 75% of Christians have experienced coercion or manipulation in their church communities. His audience is anyone harmed by the Church, and anyone with ears to hear the Gospel as told by those who've been hurt.

[10:00] — Why Podcasting? More than convenience — podcasting allows for live dialogue and spontaneous vulnerability that writing simply can't capture. Paul describes it as closer to leading RCIA or a small group than publishing an article.

[13:00] — Is the Church Doing Podcasting Well? A candid take on the lay-driven nature of Catholic media — and the troubling amount of spiritually harmful content circulating under the Catholic label. Bad Catholic content isn't poorly produced; it's content that misrepresents God, misrepresents the Church's teaching, and coerces consciences.

[16:30] — Defining Spiritual Abuse Paul walks through the core definition: a pattern of coercive or controlling behavior in a religious context, using spiritual authority to control others. Key markers include claiming something is a mortal sin for another person, presenting personal opinion as Church teaching, or using religious fear to manipulate behavior.

"If you have a podcast, you're putting yourself in a position of authority — and if you're using that to get people to change their behavior rather than to present the Gospel and give them space to wrestle with it, you've moved into spiritual coercion."

[22:00] — The Appeal of Surrender Many Catholics — perhaps all of us to some degree — are tempted to hand their freedom over to rules or authority figures. Paul reflects honestly on seeing this tendency in himself, and how mature conscience formation requires taking personal responsibility.

[25:00] — Father John's "Fenced Playground" Story Children in an unfenced playground huddle in fear; children in a fenced playground spread out freely. The insight: parameters don't restrict freedom — they create it. Religious structures, when used rightly, do the same.

[28:00] — Spiritual Warfare, Fear, and the Devil as Scapegoat Can spiritual warfare language become a bypass — a way to avoid personal responsibility? Paul draws on René Girard's scapegoat mechanism: using "the devil" to avoid accountability is the devil's playbook. The demonic is found in the scapegoat mechanism itself.

"If talking of the devil leads to scapegoating, it's harmful. If it leads us to actually work against abusive systems, that's a proper way to understand it."

[39:30] — Scripture, Tradition, and Experience in Tension Paul resists pitting lived experience against Scripture and Tradition — instead, he draws on Pope Francis' early Jesuit writing: realities are more important than ideas. Living in that tension, with expectation that the Holy Spirit will do something creative, is the work of synodality.

[43:00] — How Paul Measures Success Not downloads. Paul measures success by individual conversations — people who say, "You gave me the language to understand what happened to me," or "I finally don't feel alone."

[47:00] — "The Glory of God Is Man Fully Alive" Theosis — our divinization, our transformation into Christ — means being fully alive is giving God glory. This is not an intellectual endeavor. It is total personal transformation.

[48:30] — What Surrender Looks Like in Paul's Life Showing up in prayer as he actually is, not performing. Trusting his desires as the Lord moves through them — drawing on St. Ignatius' Discernment of Spirits: the good spirit moves those close to God through drawing and inspiration, not fear.

[51:00] — Is Spiritual Abuse Perennial or New? Perennial — but modern communications have dramatically amplified our capacity for harm. The response from Catholic Social Teaching is the virtue of solidarity: a personal commitment to human dignity and a social responsibility to dismantle structures of sin.

[55:30] — The Prophetic Act of Listening Father John argues the most prophetic witness the Church can offer right now is listening without agenda. Paul grounds this in Pope Francis' concept of accompaniment and Carl Rogers' person-centered counseling — empathy, genuineness, and unconditional positive regard create the very conditions where people naturally heal and grow.

ABOUT PAUL FAHEY

Paul Fahey is a limited licensed counselor in the state of Michigan and the host of the Third Space Podcast. A former Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish, Paul transitioned into counseling with a specialized focus on spiritual abuse, both individual experiences of it and the systemic structures that enable it. He creates workshops for church leaders on recognizing spiritually abusive systems and works individually with survivors of Church harm.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• The Third Space Podcast — Paul Fahey's podcast for those who've experienced harm in the Church
• Smart Catholics — Dominic Dusa's platform; co-host of the original Pope Francis Generation Podcast
• Where Peter Is — A Catholic blog where Paul has contributed writing
• Dr. Lisa Oakley — UK researcher on spiritual abuse in Christian communities
• René Girard — French philosopher; scapegoat mechanism and mimetic theory
• St. Ignatius of Loyola — Discernment of Spirits, the Spiritual Exercises
• Carl Rogers — Person-centered counseling; empathy, genuineness, unconditional positive regard
• Pope Francis — Evangelii Gaudium, synodality, accompaniment, "realities are more important than ideas"
• Catholic Social Teaching — Virtue of solidarity, structures of sin, preferential option for the poor

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"If you have a podcast, you're putting yourself in a position of authority — and if you're using that to get people to change their behavior rather than to present the Gospel and give them space to wrestle with it, you've moved into spiritual coercion." — Paul Fahey [16:30]

"Belonging comes first — before right belief and right behavior. If I make right belief the litmus test for belonging, I've undermined the Gospel." — Paul Fahey [55:30]

"If talking of the devil leads to scapegoating, it's harmful. If it leads us to actually work against abusive systems, that's a proper way to understand it." — Paul Fahey [28:00]

"The glory of God is man fully alive — and me being fully alive is me being transformed into Christ. This is not an intellectual endeavor. This is about total personal transformation." — Paul Fahey [47:00]

"You've given me the language to understand my own experiences. And now I don't feel alone in them." — A listener, as recalled by Paul Fahey [43:00]

"I still catch myself in prayer — performing. Not being able to show up as I am and let the Lord meet me there." — Paul Fahey [48:30]

"Anytime you hear anyone say 'this behavior is a mortal sin' — that is spiritually abusive. I can't possibly know the conscience of another person." — Paul Fahey [19:30]

"Perhaps the most prophetic witness the Church can give right now is the genuine art of listening — not to convince, not to point out flaws, but to listen without agenda." — Father John [55:30]

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Follow us on social media.

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback to podcast@desalesmedia.org.

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.  

What does it really mean to live the Gospel, not just inside church walls, but on the street corner, in the storefront, and in the lives of people the world has written off? In this powerful bonus episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich are joined by Father James O'Shea, a Passionist priest and co-founder of Reconnect, a community organization in Brooklyn that has spent over a decade transforming lives through employment, mentorship, and belonging. Father Jim shares why crossing the street, literally and figuratively, is the first and most essential act of discipleship. This conversation will challenge you, inspire you, and might just upend your narrative.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:

• "If you don't want to leave the block, then we transform the block." — Father Jim on the founding philosophy of Reconnect (00:03:30)

• How a simple basketball program at a public school became a window into the lives — and recurring tragedies — of young men in Bed-Stuy (00:08:00)
• Why moralizing with people goes nowhere, and what the church should do instead (00:09:30)
• The difference between "behave, believe, then belong" vs. leading with belonging — and why it matters (00:10:30)
• What the Passionists are, and how the charism of the Cross connects contemplation to solidarity with the suffering (00:14:30)
• Why Father Jim fell in love with Bedford-Stuyvesant the first Sunday he went there (00:18:00)
• The predictable, heartbreaking pattern he watched play out in young men's lives — and how Reconnect interrupts it (00:19:30)
• "The church is the only institution I see that really has the capacity to continually witness: you are worth us doing this because we know who you are." (00:43:00)
• Why human dignity as a concept may owe more to Christianity than most people realize — and what that means in the age of AI (00:48:30)
• The irreplaceable role of women religious in humanizing American culture (00:52:00)
• How the church should navigate controversial moral teachings while still leading with love (01:02:00)
• "I'm not going to pontificate about it until I hear people's stories." — Father Jim on listening before judging (01:14:30)
• Whether radical listening might be the defining prophetic witness the church is called to offer right now (01:08:30)
• Why listening is "a very dangerous enterprise" — and why that's exactly the point (01:13:00)

About Father Jim O'Shea

Father Jim O'Shea, CP, is a member of the Passionist Congregation and currently serves as Provincial of the Passionists' Holy Cross Province, based in Queens, New York. Ordained in 1989, Father Jim spent approximately 25 years in Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, where he earned a Master's in Social Work from Fordham University and became deeply involved in community organizing, affordable housing advocacy, and youth ministry. In 2010, he co-founded Reconnect, a social enterprise and mentorship program for young men in distressed communities. Reconnect is now based at Thomas Berry Place in Queens.

MEMORABLE QUOTES 

"If you don't want to leave the block, then we transform the block." — Father Jim O'Shea

"Moralizing with people is easy. But the legitimate question back to me is: what's your value add in my life?" — Father Jim O'Shea

"The church is the only institution I see that really has the capacity to continually witness: you are worth us doing this because we know who you are." — Father Jim O'Shea

"It's very hard to hate someone that you've really deeply listened to." — Father Jim O'Shea

"I'm not going to pontificate about it until I hear people's stories." — Father Jim O'Shea

"If you really believe that Jesus is alive in each and every single person, every single person is going to be an opportunity to hear God speak." — Father John Gribowich

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform

Follow us on social media

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality

In this bonus episode of Religion to Reality, Renée Roden, a freelance religion journalist and Catholic Worker community member, has an in-depth conversation about living faith in action. Renee shares her journey from theater student at Notre Dame to running a Catholic Worker house in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, while offering a thoughtful exploration of how Catholics can bridge the gap between sacramental life and works of mercy. This conversation challenges listeners to reconsider what it means to truly live out their faith beyond Sunday Mass.

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE

[00:03:00] The Catholic Worker Movement Explained Renee provides an accessible introduction to the Catholic Worker movement, founded in the 1930s by Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin. She explains how Dorothy Day prayed for a way to unite her writing skills, love for the poor, and newfound Catholic faith—and the next day met Peter Maurin, who introduced her to Catholic social teaching. Within months, they launched The Catholic Worker newspaper (cleverly named to counter the communist Daily Worker), and the movement exploded from 2,500 copies to six-figure readership within three years. The movement centers on Houses of Hospitality, voluntary poverty, and practicing the corporal works of mercy.

[00:11:00] Navigating Political Division The conversation tackles how Catholics can remain faithful during politically charged times without getting distracted by national politics at the expense of local, concrete action. Renee explains Dorothy Day's anarchism: she marched for women's suffrage and was imprisoned for it, yet never cast a vote herself. Day believed the state always serves its own interests and those of corporations or elites. Rather than focusing on distant political figures we don't even know personally, the Catholic Worker approach asks: "How do I care for my neighbor right now?" This localized focus prevents us from treating national political disagreements as distractions from the immediate, joyful work we can do in our own communities.

[00:15:00] Personalism as a Third Way Drawing on philosopher Emmanuel Mounier's concept of personalism, Renee articulates how the Catholic Worker offers a political vision centered on human dignity and freedom—distinct from both individualistic capitalism and collectivist ideologies. She explains that personalism asks fundamental questions: "What causes a human person to flourish? Are our structures supporting a person's ability to seek the good?" This approach shifts the focus from abstract national policy debates to concrete encounters with neighbors at the local level, bringing politics back to its first principles.

[00:20:00] Voluntary Poverty and True Freedom Renee wrestles honestly with the challenging concept of voluntary poverty, sharing how her partner James once told her "voluntary poverty promotes community and is freeing"—which initially baffled her. She explains how it's not about deprivation but about answering the question: "Who do I depend on?" Rather than depending on personal wealth and self-sufficiency, voluntary poverty means bringing your needs to God and depending on community. It creates genuine relationships based on material need, not just emotional connection, making community more meaningful and human.

[00:27:00] The Eucharist and Works of Mercy Connection Father John and Renee explore the deep connection between sacramental life and active service, addressing why the discipleship study shows Catholics excelling at liturgical participation but struggling with consistent works of mercy. Renee discusses the liturgical movement's influence on Dorothy Day, particularly the understanding that the Eucharist contains a call to "go be Eucharist in the world." As Pope Francis teaches in The Joy of the Gospel, churches shouldn't serve material needs while neglecting spiritual needs—and vice versa. The goal is integration: there should be no division between "helpers" and "the helped." Father John adds that the Eucharist trains us to see beyond appearances—recognizing Christ both in consecrated bread and in the person on the street.

[00:36:00] Community Living: Ideals and Reality With refreshing honesty, Renee addresses the challenges of intentional community living, acknowledging that many Catholic Worker houses have struggled or failed. She contrasts Catholic Workers with Benedictine monks who have "a 1,300-year-old rule and two years of novitiate training"—clear structures and guardrails. Many Catholic Worker communities lack sufficient "clarification of thought" about what it means to be a Catholic Worker and what their goals are. Renee notes that the movement is thriving among families who practice hospitality in their homes, providing natural stability through marital commitment and intimacy. Her advice: start with friendship first, read Catholic Worker literature together with like-minded people, and focus on your neighborhood community rather than just who shares your household.

[00:43:00] Finding Your Catholic Worker Community Renee addresses young Catholics who discover Dorothy Day, get excited, but then feel disillusioned when they visit Catholic Worker houses that don't reflect the sacramental, orthodox Catholicism they value. She encourages them to seek out the many Catholic Worker communities that do have "a beautiful liturgical life" and are "on fire" with energy and commitment. The Catholic Worker website makes these communities easy to find. She also explains that Catholic Worker houses practice "radical welcome," which draws many wounded people who've never felt belonging elsewhere—whether rejected by church or society. This can create challenges, but also opportunities for dialogue and parish partnerships that bring new life to communities.

ABOUT RENEE RODEN

Renee Roden is a freelance religion journalist who writes for America Magazine and US Catholic. She had a book about Christian unity in Jerusalem published by Liturgical Press last June. Renee currently lives at a Catholic Worker house in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, with her partner James, where they practice hospitality and community living.

RESOURCES MENTIONED

• America Magazine - Catholic publication Renee writes for
• US Catholic - Another outlet for Renee's journalism
• Liturgical Press – Who published Renee's book
• Notre Dame Magazine - Where Renee wrote an article on the Catholic Worker
• How to Do Nothing by Jenny Odell - Book discussing intentional communities and their challenges
• The Catholic Worker website - For finding Catholic Worker communities
• Rerum Novarum (Pope Leo XIII) and Quadragesimo Anno - Foundational Catholic social teaching encyclicals
• The Long Loneliness - Dorothy Day's autobiography
• The Joy of the Gospel - Pope Francis's teaching on integrated service

MEMORABLE QUOTES

"If we believe that we are part of the mystical body of Christ, well then, all of our institutions ought to reflect that fact that we have this great dignity as Christ's body."

"Politics essentially is how I treat my neighbor and how me and my neighbors work together."

"Voluntary poverty is freeing... It shifts who you depend on—do I depend on myself and my capabilities, or do I depend on God?"

"The point of the works of mercy is we're all supposed to be doing it for each other. We all come into this world needing to be fed."

"How powerful would our witness be to the world if Catholics lived that way? Where it's like, they look at that person and they see God, they see Christ."

"Community life is hard... but you have a 1,300-year-old rule. Catholic Workers don't have enough clarification of what it means to even be a Catholic Worker."

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Follow us on social media.

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback to podcast@desalesmedia.org.

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

What does it truly mean to live out your Catholic faith in everyday life? In this compelling conversation, Peter Andrastek, Senior Consultant at The Evangelical Catholic, challenges the common misconception that holiness means becoming more like a priest, nun, or monk. Instead, he reveals how ordinary Catholics are called to extraordinary holiness right where they are—in their workplaces, families, and communities.

Discover why most parishes aren't equipped to form laypeople for their unique vocation, how the distinction between "ministry" and "apostolate" changes everything, and what practical steps you can take today to become salt, light, and leaven in your corner of the world. This bonus episode offers a refreshing vision of Catholic life that goes far beyond Sunday Mass attendance.

IN THIS BONUS EPISODE, WE EXPLORE:

Understanding Ministry vs. Apostolate (02:40)

• Why most Catholics misunderstand their true vocation
• How ministry flows from holy orders to build up the church
• Why apostolate is the specific calling of the laity to sanctify the world
• The difference between "ad intra" (within the church) and "ad extra" (to the world)

What Sanctifying the World Actually Looks Like (09:00)

• A CEO who makes breakfast for colleagues every Friday morning
• Why holiness is "extraordinary love lived in the ordinary"
• How personal transformation radiates mysteriously to others
• The "apologetics of meaning" that makes people ask, "What's different about your life?"

The Skills vs. Holiness Debate (16:00)

• Why evangelization training without personal holiness is manipulation
• The role of human formation: "Don't be weird"
• How character and personality can facilitate or impede the gospel
• Why we can't "train people into zeal"

The Seminary Challenge (20:00)

• Young seminarians who want to be "weird" and countercultural
• The attraction to smells, bells, and traditional liturgy
• Why liturgical emphasis alone won't reach most people
• Navigating between authenticity and accessibility

Pastoral Principles That Work (24:00)

• "That which is received is received according to the disposition of the receiver"
• Working within your circle of influence vs. circle of concern
• Starting with a few well-disposed people rather than massive programs
• The mustard seed principle of parish renewal

A Practical Starting Point (28:30)

• Begin with 3-5 people you'd enjoy growing with
• Focus on three topics: Life, Growth, and Mission
• Keep 3-5 names on a prayer list and check in regularly
• Why most Catholics think holiness means spending more time at parish

The Real Models of Holiness (33:00)

• Fr. John's confession: "My heroes are people raising eight kids, not priests and monks"
• Why religious life is "institutionalized" and doesn't require the same daily sacrifice
• The sublimity of the lay vocation that's meant to "pass unnoticed"
• Why 5,000 people attend certain funerals

The Airline Pilot's Apostolate (43:00)

• A major airline pilot who made his cockpit his mission field
• Intentional conversations leading to broken marriages being healed
• "Define, Plan, Act" exercise for getting specific about your apostolate
• Why apostolate is "almost more about you than other people"

Something's Got to Give (37:00)

• Every pope since Vatican II has called for lay renewal
• Why we're living in an exciting, adventurous time
• The problem: parishes don't have imagination for lay vocation
• "If you don't know what it looks like, you can't give formation for it"

ABOUT PETER ANDRASTEK

Peter Andrastek is the Senior Consultant at the Evangelical Catholic, a private nonprofit based in Madison, Wisconsin, that forms and equips Catholics to live out the Great Commission. Since joining EC, Peter has specialized in experimental initiatives, including seminary formation, workshops for priests, and developing curriculum for lay apostolate. He's been married for 20 years and has eight children ranging from a college sophomore to a four-year-old.

Connect with the Evangelical Catholic and learn more about their formation programs at

https://evangelicalcatholic.org

MEMORABLE QUOTES

On the Lay Vocation:

"The life of an ordinary Christian is materially just the life of an ordinary person, but transformed from the inside by divine love... somehow mysteriously, without anything being different, somehow mysteriously everything is different." (09:30)

On Evangelization:

"If we reduce evangelization to something you can just train someone for, just a set of skills or a technique for saying something, we reduce evangelization to the manipulation of human techniques." (16:45)

On Starting Small:

"If you're distracted by all the things and all the people who are in your circle of concern, but not in your circle of influence, you are not going to be effective. Instead, you have to focus on a few, just like Jesus on a mustard seed." (25:30)

On Holiness and Apostolate:

"At the end of the day, holiness and apostolate are the same reality. You know, we distinguish them conceptually, but at the end of the day... when I am trying to be more cheerful at home as an act of love for my wife and kids, am I growing in holiness or am I being more apostolic with them? Why would there be a difference?" (47:00)

Fr. John's Perspective:

"My heroes are not priests, nuns, and monks. My models of holiness actually are the people who are raising the eight kids and who are juggling so many different responsibilities and living tremendous lives of sacrifice." (33:15)

CONNECT WITH US

• Visit our website: religiontoreality.org
• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Follow us on social media
• Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!
• Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality

What if the struggle in your spiritual life isn't a sign of failure, but proof that your relationship with God matters deeply? In this intimate conversation, spiritual director Mary Glowaski reveals how spiritual direction creates sacred space for encountering God's love in unexpected ways, especially in our deepest struggles and shame.

Mary shares her unexpected call to spiritual direction, the profound difference between counseling and spiritual companionship, and why being harsh with ourselves blocks us from experiencing God's unconditional love. If you've ever wondered what spiritual direction actually is, how to find a director, or whether it's right for you, this episode offers compassionate wisdom from someone who has walked with countless souls through their most sacred stories.

Discover why spiritual direction isn't about getting answers; it's about learning to see yourself and others through God's eyes of infinite compassion.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

• Spiritual direction focuses on your relationship with God, not on finding immediate answers or solutions
• The gentleness in spiritual direction mirrors God's gentle work in our lives—transformation doesn't need to be forced
• Many people struggle not with feeling unloved, but with seeing themselves as lovable
• Spiritual directors are formed professionals who create covenantal (not just confidential) sacred space
• The ego is sneaky—spiritual direction helps us get out of our own way so God can work
• Self-compassion unlocks our ability to show genuine compassion to others
• The struggles we face are often universal human experiences, not signs of unique brokenness
• Anthropomorphizing God (making God in our image) prevents us from becoming reflections of God's image

[00:00] Introduction and welcome

[00:36] Mary's background: From social work to spiritual direction

• Family life and career journey
• The unexpected call while driving past University of St. Francis

[02:00] What is spiritual direction?

• Difference from counseling and therapy
• Responding to divine invitation
• Seeing all of life as sacred

[05:00] The focus on relationship with God, not human guidance

• Trusting God's work in the directee's life
• Being a conduit rather than an answer-giver

[06:00] Common misconceptions about spiritual direction

• Ancient practice that was lost and rediscovered
• Not just for clergy—relatively new widespread practice (last 60 years)

[08:00] Suspending what we think we know

• Trusting the directee's experience of God
• The privilege of witnessing sacred stories

[09:00] The gentle stance of spiritual direction

• Creating peaceful, unhurried space
• Cultural addiction to productivity vs. spiritual receptivity

[10:43] The struggle with self-love and feeling lovable

• How harshness toward ourselves blocks God's love
• Knowing whose we are, not just who we are

[12:00] Spiritual direction vs. counseling vs. mentoring

• How to discern what someone needs
• Staying faithful to the original relationship

[14:00] How spiritual direction changes the director

• Being humbled by directees' courage
• Witnessing God's work in immeasurable ways
• Holding stories in a covenantal way

[16:00] The unique interior access of spiritual direction

• Seeing growth that spouses may not even see
• The hidden nature of spiritual transformation

[18:00] Humility as foundational for spiritual directors

• Praying "get me out of the way"
• Relief in knowing it's not about you

[20:00] Stories of growth and transformation

• Learning to stop making God in our image
• The relief of self-compassion
• Journey toward forgiveness of grievous harm

[24:00] What a typical session looks like

• Monthly hour-long meetings
• Inviting the Holy Spirit's presence
• No homework—trusting God's work between sessions

[27:00] Meeting with other spiritual directors

• Peer supervision and ethical discussions
• Importance of receiving spiritual direction yourself

[29:00] How to find a spiritual director

• Spiritual Directors International directory
• Local ecumenical directories forming
• Challenges in finding the right fit

[31:45] Does a spiritual director need to be clergy?

• Importance of proper formation over ordained status
• Warning about untrained "spiritual directors"

[33:45] What Mary wishes people knew

• How deeply loved they are by God
• Freedom from fear of God's judgment
• Invitation to be kinder to themselves

[35:00] Practices that support spiritual direction

• Correlation with Mass attendance and prayer
• Living an integrated life vs. compartmentalized "spiritual life"

[36:45] The connective tissue: Awareness of mystery

• Staying rooted when life is overwhelming
• Relieved of the burden to judge everything

[38:00] Being present vs. letting ego take over

• When to speak up for justice
• Wrestling with God like Jacob

[40:00] Christ's easy yoke vs. spiritual struggle

• Struggle shows the relationship is valued
• Keeping hearts open despite challenges

[42:00] Universal human struggles

• Our stories are the same as Scripture's stories
• Sharing in goodness, not just shame

[44:00] True empathy: "I could be there"

• Recognizing our capability for the same mistakes
• Freedom from judgment

[45:00] Self-compassion and taking responsibility

• Practicing compassion on others first
• Not projecting our inner state onto others

[47:00] Looking for witnesses

• Finding people who embody what we need
• Mary's experience watching communion after her husband's death
• Choosing what and who we look to

About Mary Glowaski

Mary Glowaski is a spiritual director, pastoral counselor, and former social worker who spent 20 years working in victim assistance, pastoral care, mediation, and crisis intervention for the Diocese of Fort Wayne-South Bend. After receiving her master's in pastoral theology and completing three years of Ignatian formation, Mary has dedicated her life to creating sacred space where people can encounter God's love and gentleness. A mother of two sons, mother-in-law to two daughters-in-law, and grandmother to three, Mary brings deep wisdom, humility, and compassion to her ministry of spiritual companionship.

Resources Mentioned

• Spiritual Directors International - Directory to find spiritual directors
• Ignatian spirituality - Formation tradition rooted in St. Ignatius of Loyola
• Northern Indiana Spiritual Directors - New ecumenical directory forming
• Centering prayer - Contemplative prayer practice discussed in sessions

Memorable Quotes

"Spiritual direction is really about looking at the whole... These moments in someone's lives, even the things that we struggle with, there's sacredness there."

"Too often, I find people that it's not that they don't feel loved, they don't see themselves as lovable."

"Before someone comes to me, I pray, get me out of the way. Really, who cares what I think? It doesn't matter."

"We spend so much time anthropomorphizing God, making God into us instead of making me an image, a reflection of God's image."

"When a relationship with God is a struggle, I say thank you, because that says to me that it's of value."

"Given the right circumstances, I'm certainly capable of doing the same thing. And so that just really relieves me of like, I don't need to judge it because I could be there."

"We can take a deep breath and begin again."

CONNECT WITH US

Visit our website: religiontoreality.org

Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Follow us on social media.

Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!

Send us your questions and feedback to podcast@desalesmedia.org. 

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

In this bonus episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich sit down with Friar Rick Riccioli, a Franciscan Friar Conventual and parish pastor in Brooklyn, for a wide-ranging and deeply honest conversation about what evangelization looks like in the real world today.

With over four decades of religious life and pastoral ministry across Canada and the United States, Friar Rick reflects on the tension between radical welcome and Gospel truth, the difference between accompanying people and trying to control their faith journey, and how parishes can become places of genuine belonging without losing their Catholic identity.

From Alpha and Divine Renovation to funerals, young adults, parish leadership, and the quiet heartbreak of parents whose children have left the Church, this episode offers practical wisdom, lived experience, and Franciscan humility for anyone who cares about the future of parish life.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

• What authentic accompaniment really means—and what it is not
• Why evangelization begins with relationship, listening, and trust
• The difference between belonging, believing, and behaving
• Lessons learned from Francis Corps and forming young adults in faith and service
• How Alpha helps build a culture of hospitality, not just a program
• Why funerals may be the Church’s most powerful evangelization moments
• The quiet pain of parents whose children have drifted from the faith
• Challenges of leading parishes with aging infrastructure and changing demographics
• Why empowering the laity is essential to the Church’s missionary future
• What young adults are actually looking for in the Church today

[00:00] Introduction & Friar Rick's Background

• Meet Friar Rick Riccioli: 42 years as a Franciscan, serving across Canada and the U.S.
• Current ministry at Most Holy Trinity-St. Mary's Parish in Williamsburg, Brooklyn
• Journey from Montreal to Toronto to Syracuse, now leading urban parish renewal

[03:00] Francis Corps: Faith Formation Through Service

• Year-long volunteer program combining service and intentional faith formation
• How the program transforms both social justice warriors and traditional Catholics
• The power of living in community: "What did you do to my daughter?"
• Learning to balance individual convictions with communal responsibility

[06:00] Bridging the Gap: Social Justice vs. Church Connection

• Meeting people where they are: from soup kitchen volunteers to devoted parishioners
• The importance of being "truly Catholic and truly human"
• Creating space for questions and doubts without judgment
• Why building relationships matters more than having all the answers

[11:00] Creative Outreach: The 11:11 Service

• Creating a non-Mass Sunday service for those not ready for traditional liturgy
• "Come for coffee, stay for supper": Building pathways to the Eucharist
• Navigating the challenges of radical welcome in practice
• When soup kitchen patrons become part of your worshiping community

[13:00] The Art of Accompaniment

• How much should we try to change people vs. meet them where they are?
• Avoiding the trap of "I'm going to hold your hand and pull you where I want you to go"
• Case studies: Walking with LGBTQ+ parishioners, families with trans children
• Everyone's path to holiness requires listening to God, not just conforming to prescriptions

[20:00] Copyright & Church Teaching: Holding Truth with Humility

• Balancing absolute truth with pastoral reality
• "We may not always be the perfect vehicles for interpreting revelation"
• The Franciscan approach: humility, service, and kinship first
• Treating every person as family, not a stranger you're ministering to

[22:00] Leading Parishes Through Cultural Change

• Working with aging congregations while reaching young adults
• The heartbreak of parents whose children left the faith
• Why elderly parishioners show up to rock concerts: they want the church to succeed
• Technology and personal follow-up: staying connected after weddings and funerals

[31:00] The Power of Funerals in Evangelization

• "I've gotten more people back to church through funerals than any program"
• Meeting families in vulnerability without judgment
• Why personalization matters: showing up as fully human and fully Catholic
• The challenge of follow-up when there's no guarantee of continued connection

[42:00] Reimagining Church Buildings & Sacred Space

• Should we remove pews and make churches multi-purpose?
• What young adults actually want: transcendence AND welcome
• The Friendsgiving dinner in the main aisle: powerful or problematic?
• Balancing sacred space with flexibility for community building

[46:00] The Wedding Dilemma: Rules vs. Relationship

• When couples want a Catholic wedding but don't attend church
• The cost of hospitality: investing in people who might disappoint you
• Why starting with conversation beats starting with requirements
• "I don't want one more story of the priest being mean"

[55:00] The Young Adult Paradox

• Why young adults are filling the 12:30 Mass but not joining small groups
• "I don't need you for my social life"
• Are they just punching in and out, or is something deeper happening?
• The gym membership analogy: getting what they need without full community engagement

[01:00:00] What Is Community, Really?

• How social media has transformed our understanding of belonging
• "Unless you're following someone to the bathroom they stunk up"—real community requires friction
• The New York City challenge: nobody plans to stay forever
• Peeling away layers: beneath the Instagram lives are real struggles

[01:08:00] The Uncomfortable Path to Vocation

• We've failed to convince people that discomfort leads to growth
• "How you come out of yourself is by entering uncomfortable places"
• Making people comfortable vs. helping them be comfortable with discomfort
• The original sin of avoiding "the other"

[01:11:00] Final Thoughts

• The importance of helping people engage with those different from themselves
• Trusting the Holy Spirit's work even when we can't measure results
• Why success in ministry can't be quantified like a marketing campaign
• The ongoing journey of parish transformation

ABOUT FRIAR RICK RICCIOLI

Friar Rick Riccioli is a Franciscan Friar Conventual and parish pastor in Brooklyn with over four decades of religious life and pastoral ministry across Canada and the United States.

MEMORABLE QUOTES

“Everyone is welcome—but not everyone’s next step is the same.”

“Evangelization happens at the speed of relationship.”

“You can’t drag people into holiness. You have to walk with them.”

“The Church’s greatest moments of evangelization often happen at funerals.”

CONNECT WITH US

• Visit our website: religiontoreality.org
• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Follow us on social media
• Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!
• Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

What does authentic prayer look like in the digital age? Monica Martinez, Parish Lead at Hallow, shares her powerful journey from a teenager who stopped going to Mass to becoming a passionate advocate for healing through faith. In this deeply personal conversation, Monica discusses how prayer evolved from a childhood habit into a transformative relationship, why apps like Hallow are helping people discover faith safely, and how the modern Church can create genuine spaces for encounter. Whether you're exploring prayer for the first time or seeking to deepen your spiritual life, this episode offers practical wisdom on listening, silence, and meeting God in the everyday moments.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

Monica's Journey to Healing

• How family struggles with divorce and alcoholism sparked a lifelong search for healing (2:00)
• The pivotal 21st birthday moment that changed everything (4:00)
• Why healing isn't a one-time event but a continuous journey

Prayer Apps and Digital Spirituality

• Why 43% of Hallow users aren't Catholic—and what that reveals about modern faith seeking (6:00)
• The "safety factor" of digital prayer: exploring faith without vulnerability (7:00)
• Balancing prayer apps with authentic relationship: avoiding the "streak" mentality (10:00)

The Evolution of Prayer

• From rote prayers to relationship: Monica's transformation (22:00)
• The freedom that comes from trusting the Holy Spirit (21:00)
• Why "Come Holy Spirit" is about perception, not summoning (31:00)

Listening in Prayer

• What makes someone a good listener in prayer—and in life (26:00)
• The challenge and importance of silence (28:00)
• Practical advice for entering contemplative prayer (30:00)

Prayer Styles and Traditions

• Why different forms of prayer reflect God's creativity (35:00)
• The unity found in memorized prayers across cultures (36:00)
• When to use rote prayers vs. spontaneous meditation (37:00)

Modern Evangelization

• Creating welcoming parish environments post-COVID (39:00)
• Why the Eucharist might not be the best first entry point (42:00)
• The importance of accompanying seekers with gentleness (47:00)
• Learning to meet people where they are, not where we think they should be (50:00)

About Monica Martinez

Monica Martinez serves as Parish Lead at Hallow, the #1 Catholic prayer app, where she partners with parishes across the country to deepen prayer lives. Previously, she worked as Associate Director for Alpha in the Catholic context and served in diocesan ministry. Monica's work is driven by her personal experience of healing through faith, particularly her journey through family struggles with divorce and alcoholism. She travels nationally leading missions focused on prayer, evangelization, and creating spaces for authentic conversation about faith.

Memorable Quotes

On Prayer and Relationship:

"Prayer is not so much something I'm doing, it's something I'm allowing to be done to me. When I'm tired, it's not that I'm too tired to pray—I need you, Lord, to help me rest." — Monica Martinez (23:00)

On Digital Tools:

"You don't need an app to pray, but you also don't need a trainer to get fit. But it really does help to learn the right form and not hurt yourself." —Monica Martinez (7:00)

On Healing:

"When you encounter that relationship, when you encounter healing, there's nothing left for you to do but help other people encounter the same." —Monica Martinez (2:00)

On Silence:

"Silence isn't about trying to get absolute quiet. It's about being attentive to the sounds you're missing—in your heart, mind, and spirit." —Father John Gribowich (29:00)

On the Eucharist:

"It's one thing to read about an amazing friend. It's another thing to encounter them—see how funny they are, how wonderful. That's what people long for with the Eucharist." —Monica Martinez (45:00)

Resources Mentioned

Prayer & Spirituality:

• Hallow Prayer App – https://hallow.com
• Alpha in the Catholic Context – https://alphausa.org/catholic
• Encounter Ministries – https://encounterministries.us
• NET Ministries – https://www.netusa.org
• Rescue Project – https://rescueproject.us
• Eucharistic Revival – https://eucharisticrevival.org

Scripture Referenced:

• Romans 8:26 - "The Spirit comes to aid our weakness; we do not know how to pray as we ought"
• Gospel of the Road to Emmaus (Luke 24)
• Lasallian Prayer - "Let us remember we are in the holy presence of God"

Spiritual Teachers Mentioned:

• St. Ignatius of Loyola (on consolation and desolation)
• St. Francis of Assisi
• Father James Mallon
• Christopher West (Theology of the Body)
• Wayne Dyer

Research & Studies:

• Pew Research on Catholic belief in the Real Presence
• Vinea Research follow-up study on Catholic Belief in the Real Presence
• CARA Research on Eucharistic understanding
• Psychology Today study on listening retention

Connect With Us

• Visit our website: religiontoreality.org
• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Follow us on social media
• Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!
• Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

In this bonus episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich sit down with Catholic educator and mindfulness teacher, Kathy Lorentz, to explore how prayer is far more than just words. It's about cultivating awareness of God's presence throughout every moment of our lives.

Kathy shares her journey from playing the Blessed Mother in a touring play at age 16 to becoming a theology teacher who works with students from preschool through adulthood. Her approach to prayer challenges traditional notions, revealing how attention, gratitude, and presence can transform mundane moments into sacred encounters.

Listen now to discover how you can develop a deeper prayer life without adding more to your to-do list.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

The Nature of Prayer and Attention (03:00-09:00)

• Why prayer isn't just an activity but an awareness of God's presence
• The profound connection between attention and prayer: "Attention taken to its highest degree is the same thing as prayer" (Simone Weil)
• How attention works like a spotlight—you can only focus on one thing at a time
• Understanding that "attention is a muscle" that strengthens with practice

Navigating the Digital Age Mindfully (09:00-12:00)

• Practical strategies for teaching high school students to manage digital distractions
• The importance of turning off notifications and using "do not disturb" mode intentionally
• Helping students recognize the preciousness of time through journaling their digital habits
• How to be fully present whether in prayer or conversation

Prayer Practices for Everyday Life (12:00-19:00)

• Using gratitude as a form of prayer—finding three or four meaningful moments each day
• The comfort and power of repetitive prayers like the Hail Mary (Kathy prays it up to 50 times daily)
• Creating "mindfulness bells" throughout your day—doorways, meals, car rides as prayer opportunities
• Prayer while driving past struggling communities: holding people in compassionate love

The Importance of Intentional Prayer Time (20:00-23:00)

• Why setting aside dedicated time for prayer matters, even when we know life itself is prayer
• The transformative power of beginning your day with five minutes of prayer
• How communal and structured prayer (like in monasteries) can form us
• The blessing of working in theology education, where prayer is built into the day

Praying for Others (23:00-26:00)

• What it means to hold people in prayer without imposing our will
• Why Kathy rarely prays for specific outcomes: "I don't have the wisdom to know what a suffering someone needs."
• The sacredness of simply blessing others: "God bless you. May God bless you."
• Understanding your presence itself as prayer when you carry the Holy Spirit with you

Misconceptions About Prayer (26:00-29:00)

• How gratitude, acts of service, and caring attention are all forms of prayer
• Meister Eckhart's wisdom: "If all you said was thank you, that would be prayer enough."
• Why telling young people “You don't get to choose" whether you're spiritual—it's part of being human
• Moving beyond seeing prayer as separate from the rest of life toward integration

Cultivating Awe and Wonder (29:00-34:00)

• How science and spirit aren't opposites—the experience of awe bridges both
• Dacher Keltner's research: we need 50 experiences of awe per day, not just 2-3
• Using "awe workshops" to help students recognize sacred moments
• Einstein's wisdom: "Never lose a holy curiosity. Don't stop to marvel."
• Recognizing all of life as holy, including ourselves

The Power of the Rosary (35:00-37:00)

• Why the rosary was the most cited prayer practice for impacting faith in DeSales Media's discipleship study
• The rosary as a grounding, multisensory prayer experience
• Kathy's advice: "Just say it, and let it be revealed to you" rather than overthinking the meaning

Generational Changes and COVID's Impact (37:00-41:00)

• How some generations chose not to pass on faith traditions to their children
• The primary reason families choose Catholic schools today: quality education (faith formation is 4th or 5th)
• How the COVID pandemic awakened people to the importance of gathering in community
• Hope that the Holy Spirit is calling us to new ways of praying and being church together

The Practice of Listening (41:00-42:00)

• Why listening keeps emerging as the key spiritual practice
• How listening and attention are completely tied together
• Setting aside time to be still and listen as essential prayer

Meet Our Guest

Kathy Lorentz is a Catholic educator with extensive experience teaching from preschool through adult education. She currently teaches theology at a Catholic high school, where she also serves as a counselor specializing in mindfulness and contemplative practices.

Kathy's faith journey began at age 16 when she was invited to play the Blessed Mother in a touring production across California and Nevada, an experience that deeply shaped her devotion to Mary. Kathy also has a background in marriage and family counseling, compassion work, and inter-religious dialogue.

As a mother of five adult sons, Kathy teaches a class called "Mindfulness in the Contemplative Tradition" and has taught "Prayer and Spirituality" to thousands of high school students over 15 years. She works with Sunday to Sunday and is passionate about helping people discover prayer as an integrated way of being rather than just an activity.

Memorable Quotes

"Let us remember that we are in the holy presence of God—for me, that is everything. It's not as if words need to be said, it's more a sense of being, of being aware of the presence that we exist in." — Kathy Lorentz

"Attention taken to its highest degree is the same thing as prayer." — Simone Weil (quoted by Kathy)

"Attention is a muscle, and the more we practice—with prayer, beginning with taking a deep breath and just taking time to focus on the fact that you are breathing—is a way of practicing to increase your muscle of attention." — Kathy Lorentz

"I believe that what we began with—remembering that we are in the holy presence of God—the awareness of the presence of God will help us know that we are not alone." — Kathy Lorentz

"One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery each day. Never lose a holy curiosity. Don't stop to marvel." — Albert Einstein

"Even if all you said was thank you, that would be prayer enough." — Meister Eckhart

Resources Mentioned

Books & Authors:

• Living Buddha, Living Christ by Thich Nhat Hanh
• Works by Simone Weil
• Works by Meister Eckhart
• Awe: The New Science of Everyday Wonder and How It Can Transform Your Life by Dacher Keltner (UC Berkeley)
• Writings of Albert Einstein

Organizations & Movements:

• Sunday to Sunday ministry
• De La Salle Christian Brothers (Lasallian schools)
• Thich Nhat Hanh's community/sangha
• Lourdes pilgrimage site

Concepts & Practices:

• Mindfulness in the Contemplative Tradition
• Self-compassion practices
• Gratitude journaling
• The Rosary and Hail Mary prayer
• Mindfulness bells
• Awe workshops
• Digital wellness and attention management

Connect With Us

• Visit our website: religiontoreality.org
• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Follow us on social media
• Leave us a rating and review—it helps others discover the show!
• Send us your questions and feedback

Learn more about our work: Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, dedicated to helping people bridge the gap between religious practice and lived spiritual reality.

What does it really mean to live an integrated faith life? In this powerful bonus episode, Father John Gribowich sits down with Cindy Black, a 26-year veteran of Catholic ministry, for an intimate conversation about discovering God in unexpected places and people.

Cindy shares her compelling journey from a "porta crib Catholic" who rarely attended Mass to becoming a passionate minister serving in youth ministry, diocesan leadership, Catholic radio, and parish evangelization. But this isn't just another conversion story, it's a profound exploration of how God shows up in bar conversations with atheists, friendships with those the church has wounded, and the sacred space of simply listening without agenda.

Through raw honesty and vulnerability, Cindy and Father John tackle the messy realities of ministry today moving beyond "winning arguments" to genuine encounter, and recognizing that every person, regardless of their beliefs or lifestyle, reveals something about the mystery of God's love.

If you've ever felt that your strongest encounters with God happened outside traditional church settings, or if you're wrestling with how to authentically love people the church has marginalized, this conversation will resonate deeply.

In This Bonus Episode, We Explore:

Finding Faith Through Witness (0:00 - 7:00)

• Cindy's journey from occasional Mass attendance to active faith
• The transformative influence of her Catholic grandparents
• How her grandparents embodied Theology of the Body before it was taught
• The moment she encountered God's love while holding her newborn daughter

From Relational Ministry to Radical Love (7:00 - 14:00)

• The Christ Renew His Parish retreat that changed everything
• Moving beyond "relational ministry with an ulterior motive"
• Understanding that truth isn't moral ideals—it's a Person whose identity is love
• Encountering God through unexpected friendships at a bar

God in the Margins (14:00 - 22:00)

• Father John's reflection on the Eucharist as lens for seeing God everywhere
• Why the strongest encounters with God often happen outside church structures
• The sacredness of face-to-face conversation in a dehumanized world
• Suffering as the great unifier across political and religious divides

Accompaniment Over Conversion (22:00 - 31:00)

• Moving from "winning arguments" to walking alongside people
• The complex pastoral situation of accompanying a trans individual seeking baptism
• What baptism really means when we don't fully understand how grace works
• Simone Weil's paradox: refusing baptism to avoid separating herself from others

Formation as Transformation (31:00 - 40:00)

• What faith formation really means (hint: it's not just theology classes)
• Avoiding the "consumer Catholic" trap
• Why the disciples didn't need seminary degrees to transform the world
• Interior integration versus compartmentalization

The Art of Accompaniment (40:00 - 52:00)

• Pope Francis's call to "remove our sandals at the sacredness of the other"
• How a barber brought four people to faith this year
• Treating every interaction—even with store clerks—as eternal encounter
• The prophetic practice of listening without agenda

Meet Our Guest

Cindy Black has served in Catholic ministry for 26 years across multiple roles including youth ministry director, diocesan director of youth and young adult ministry (9 years), Catholic radio station team member (8 years), and currently serves in the Office of Evangelization at her home parish in Indiana. She specializes in accompanying those becoming Catholic and teaches Theology of the Body. Cindy is known for her radical openness to encountering God in unexpected people and places, and her commitment to witnessing God's love without judgment or agenda.

Memorable Quotes

"The truth isn't a set of moral ideals. The truth is a person whose identity is love." - Cindy Black

"If every relationship and every encounter I want what's best for the person in front of me that's made in the image and likeness of God, whether they believe it or not, or believe in God or not... the world would be transformed." - Cindy Black

"God is either everything, Christ is either everything or he is nothing." - Father John

"My job in ministry is to be witnesses... and to not be an obstacle to get in the way of what the Lord wants to do in somebody." - Cindy Black

"The most prophetic way to live the Christian life in the context we're living in today is to radically listen without agenda when we encounter people." - Father John

"We've forgotten that we belong to each other." - Mother Teresa (quoted by Cindy)

"Modern man listens more to witnesses than teachers. And if we listen to teachers, it's because they're first witnesses." - Pope Paul VI (quoted by Cindy)

Resources Mentioned

Books & Teachings

• Pope Francis: The Joy of the Gospel (Evangelii Gaudium) - Essential reading on the art of accompaniment and removing our sandals at the sacredness of the other
• St. Augustine: Confessions - Classic spiritual autobiography referenced as teaching resource
• St. Thomas Aquinas - Referenced as theological teaching resource
• Theology of the Body (Pope John Paul II) - Teaching framework Cindy uses, exemplified by her grandparents

Catholic Programs

• Christ Renews His Parish - Parish-based retreat program that catalyzed Cindy's deep encounter with God
• RCIA/OCIA - Traditional terminology for "Becoming Catholic" program
• "Becoming Catholic" - Cindy's parish's accessible name for the initiation process

Key People Mentioned

• Dave Plisky - Religion to Reality host
• Michael Dopp - Cindy's colleague who teaches on evangelization
• Pope Paul VI - Quoted: "Modern man listens more to witnesses than teachers"
• Mother Teresa - Quoted on remembering we belong to each other
• St. Vincent de Paul - Parish patron; quoted: "It's not enough if I love God, if my neighbor doesn't also love him"
• Simone Weil - 20th century mystic who chose not to be baptized to avoid separation from others

Theological Concepts

• Original sin as "original brokenness"
• The Trinity as mutual self-giving love
• Sacramental worldview
• Interior integration vs. compartmentalization
• The four pillars of discipleship from Acts of the Apostles: intimacy with God (prayer), worship, formation, and community

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Support the Show

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Have a listen to this teaser to hear a quick montage of our favorite topic revealed to us throughout the season.

See you for Season Two in 2026!

Quick Summary

In this powerful season finale of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich reflect on their journey through over two dozen interviews, distilling the most transformative lessons about living an integrated spiritual life. They explore why listening, not activism, may be the most prophetic witness the Church can offer today, challenge traditional clericalism from surprising angles, and discover that belonging must come before belief. Through conversations with Stephen White, Fr. Thomas Gaunt, and Paul Fahey, this episode reveals how authentic relationships, radical listening, and the sacramental worldview can transform both individual lives and Church communities.

In This Episode, We Explore:

The Art of Radical Listening (4:00)

• Why listening is the highest form of paying attention and waiting for God
• The difference between productive action and contemplative discernment
• How the spirit of Advent shapes authentic spiritual practice

Discipleship vs. Activism (6:30)

• The dangerous professionalization of Church work
• Why doing "Catholic things" doesn't automatically equal discipleship
• How the division between clergy and laity undermines the baptismal call

Clericalism from the Bottom Up (8:00)

• Steven White's provocative insight: laity share responsibility for clericalism
• The transactional spirituality that's persisted for 1,500+ years
• Why waiting for bishops to fix problems is itself a form of clericalism

The Fluidity of Roles (12:00)

• Moving beyond rigid categories while honoring the sacramental priesthood
• How effective preaching happens beyond ordination
• Creating healthy tension between structure and Spirit

Research as Sacred Listening (20:00)

• Fr. Thomas Gaunt on CARA's agenda-free approach to Church research
• Why Sunday Mass attendance isn't the only measure of active faith
• The surprising power of baptism to create lifelong belonging

The Indelible Mark of Baptism (25:00)

• Why does baptizing infants offer a "container" for spiritual growth
• How baptism creates belonging regardless of church participation
• The beauty of unconditional ecclesial presence

Belonging Before Belief (33:00)

• Paul Fahey's transformative principle: belonging comes first
• Why does making right belief the litmus test undermine the gospel
• Carl Rogers meets Catholic theology: empathy, genuineness, and unconditional love

Seven Themes That Emerged This Season (38:00)

• Living an integrated (not compartmentalized) life
• Embracing a sacramental worldview
• Authentic relationship over agenda
• The centrality of community
• Trust as the foundation for formation
• Formation beyond catechesis
• The sacred practice of discernment and listening

Meet Our Guests

Stephen White - Executive Director of the Catholic Project at Catholic University of America. Steven brings critical insights on clericalism, the professionalization of discipleship, and lay responsibility in Church renewal.

Fr. Thomas Gaunt, SJ - Executive Director of the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University. With over 40 years as a Jesuit priest, Fr. Tom shares how agenda-free research reveals unexpected truths about Catholic belonging.

Paul Fahey - Limited Licensed Professional Counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. Paul introduces the revolutionary idea that belonging must precede belief and explains how person-centered counseling aligns perfectly with Catholic anthropology.

Memorable Quotes

"If I make right belief or right behavior the litmus test for belonging, I've undermined the gospel." - Paul Fahey

"It's very hard these days to tell the difference between discipleship and activism." - Stephen White

"Listening is everything. I think it may sound frustrating for some people because it's like, well if you just listen, then no one ever does anything. But listening is part of paying attention—waiting for God to reveal something greater than if you were just jumping in trying to fix something." - Father John Gribowich

"These are not people disengaged from their faith. These may be people disengaged from Sunday mass, but that's not disengaged from their faith." - Fr. Thomas Gaunt

"There are some effective people who are preaching, who are not ordained, not necessarily because they have robust theological education, but because they've had a really profound encounter with Christ." - Fr. John Gribowich

Resources Mentioned

• The Catholic Project at Catholic University of America
• Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University
• Person-centered counseling and Carl Rogers' work
• Simone Weil's writings on attention and waiting for God

About Religion to Reality

Religion to Reality explores how Catholics can live integrated lives where faith isn't compartmentalized but permeates every aspect of existence. Based on extensive research, including over two dozen interviews with Church leaders, scholars, and practitioners, this podcast seeks to bridge the gap between religious practice and lived reality. This concludes Season 1 of Religion to Reality.

Hosts:

• Dave Plisky - Researcher and host
• Fr. John Gribowich - Co-host and theological guide

Additional Guests This Season

Special thanks to all our season guests: Kathy Lorentz, Dr. Bill Keimig, Cindy Black, Fr. Joe Gibino, Christina Semmens, Fr. James O'Shea, Monica Martinez, Fr. David Roman, Andrea Sarubbi, Renée Roden, Emily Ricci, Mary Glowaski, Josh Packard, Luisamaria Hernandez, Mike St. Pierre, and Peter Andrastek.

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org
• Join the Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Support the Show

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary

In this insightful episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich step back from theory to examine the hard data behind Catholic discipleship and faith formation. They explore surprising findings from their comprehensive discipleship study and discuss what the numbers reveal about modern spiritual practices, evangelization comfort levels, and the changing landscape of faith in America.

Featuring interviews with three leading voices in faith research, Hans Plate (Vinea Research), Josh Packard (Future of Faith), and Fr. Joseph Gibino (Diocese of Brooklyn), this episode bridges the gap between data and pastoral practice. Discover what Gen Z really thinks about God, why 100% of people with spiritual directors found them through a spiritual community to which they already belong, and how the Synod on Synodality is reshaping the Church's approach to listening.

Key Takeaway: Data isn't just for businesses—it's essential for understanding how to meet people where they are in their faith journey and creating meaningful pathways to deeper discipleship.

In This Episode, We Explore:

[00:00:00] Opening Reflection

• "Listen and silent share the same letters" - the importance of silence in listening

[00:01:00] Why Data Matters for the Church

• How businesses use data to serve customers
• Applying data-driven insights to church ministry
• Understanding where people stand in their faith journey

[00:02:00] Surprising Study Findings

• Both physical and digital prayer aids are used across all generations (only 6% use exclusively one type)
• 100% of people with spiritual directors found them through their parish or faith community
• Prayer apps correlate with increased prayer frequency
• The challenge of measuring interior spiritual life

[00:04:00] The Omnichannel Approach to Faith

• Why multiple touchpoints matter in spiritual formation
• The integrated life as the ultimate goal
• Different seasons require different spiritual resources

[00:06:00] Interview with Hans Plate (Vinea Research)

• Majority of respondents pray over an hour daily
• 76% are comfortable evangelizing; 56% are proactive about it
• High interest in learning more about evangelization
• The need to understand what "evangelization" actually means to people

[00:09:00] Rethinking Evangelization

• Moving beyond agenda-driven approaches
• The importance of relationship before proclamation
• Why "evangelizing always, using words when necessary" isn't quite right
• Catholics as "human billboards" for the faith

[00:13:00] The Mormon Example

• Comparing Catholic and LDS approaches to living faith
• The disconnect between Catholic doctrine and lived witness
• Why both credible beliefs AND compelling witness are necessary

[00:15:00] The Lived Gospel

• Authentic joy as the most compelling gospel message
• Head vs. heart approaches to faith
• Everyone is on a journey—meeting people where they are

[00:17:00] Interview with Josh Packard (Future of Faith)

• Understanding Gen Z's diverse images of God
• Moving beyond "Moralistic Therapeutic Deism"
• The problem with trying to capture the most diverse generation with three words

[00:22:00] "Young People Aren't Leaving—Their Parents Already Did"

• Reframing the conversation around disaffiliation
• Over half of Josh's sociology students had never been in a house of worship
• The Church is decades behind on this trend
• What it's like to walk into a church for the first time with no frame of reference

[00:25:00] A Golden Opportunity

• Creating faith formation from scratch for spiritually seeking people
• Why we can't just replicate mid-20th century approaches
• Meeting real needs vs. perceived needs
• The Eucharist as a real need that isn't a perceived need

[00:28:00] The Power of Lived Example

• Why liturgy alone won't draw everyone in
• Starting from scratch as a blessing (less baggage from scandals)
• The shift from guilt-based faith to other motivations

[00:31:00] Interview with Fr. Joe Gibino (Diocese of Brooklyn)

• Bishop Brennan's genuine listening throughout the Synod process
• The challenge of getting people to silence themselves to truly listen
• "Listen and silent share the same letters"
• The fruits of good listening: hearing the Holy Spirit's "gentle whispering breeze"

[00:36:00] The Synod's Impact on Parish Identity

• Shifting from parish-specific identity to neighborhood Catholic community
• Moving from "we've always done it this way" to collaborative faith formation
• The role of family ministry in uniting neighborhoods

[00:39:00] Synod vs. Discipleship Study

• Similar themes: formation, youth focus, better communication
• Both heard from mass-attending Catholics about unmet needs
• The challenges and controversies surrounding the Synod

[00:41:00] Addressing Both Sides

• To traditionalists: listening is valuable; doctrine develops over time
• To progressives: seemingly small changes are actually big strides
• Comparing Vatican I's "anathema" tone to Vatican II's pastoral approach
• The Synod as Vatican II's continuation 60 years later

[00:47:00] Trusting in God's Love

• Taking risks while being present to those affected
• The impossibility of God's love collapsing through this process

Meet Our Guests 

Hans Plate - Founder & President, Vinea Research. Hans partnered with Religion to Reality to conduct the discipleship study. He also runs Pensari, a healthcare research company, and brings extensive expertise in understanding highly engaged Catholics.

Josh Packard - Co-founder, Future of Faith. Formerly the Director of Spring Tide Institute for Research, Josh provides custom research for faith communities and offers crucial insights into Gen Z's relationship with faith and spirituality.

Father Joseph Gibino - Vicar of Evangelization, Diocese of Brooklyn, Pastor of St. Charles Borromeo Church. Father Joe led diocesan-level Synod on Synodality efforts and champions family-centered faith formation.

Notable Quotes

"Listen and silent share the same letters, and if we haven't silenced ourselves, then we can't listen." - Father Joe Gibino

"The most compelling gospel is the one that's lived." - Father John Gribowich

"Young people are not leaving the church. Their parents are. In many cases, their parents left the church." - Josh Packard

"We as Catholics are always directly and indirectly advertising our faith—we are human billboards." - Hans Plate (quoting Matthew Kelly)

"What could possibly happen in this whole process that's going to lead to the utter collapse of God's love? It's just impossible." - Father John Gribowich

Resources Mentioned

• Vinea Research: vinearesearch.com
• Future of Faith: futureoffaith.org
• Synod on Synodality Resources: https://www.synod.va/en.html
• Religion to Reality Website: religiontoreality.org
• Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com – Join Father John Gribowich's free online gatherings

Next Episode Preview 

Join us for the season finale as Dave and Fr. John tie everything together and explore how to truly live an integrated life. Don't miss this culminating conversation that brings together all the insights from Season 1!

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org
• Join the Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Support the Show

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary

How do you find authentic Catholic community in a world that's more connected yet more isolated than ever? In this episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore why community keeps emerging as a central theme in faith formation, and why finding the right fit can be so challenging.

From whiskey tastings to Catholic Worker houses to digital book clubs, discover how different forms of community serve different spiritual needs. You'll hear honest conversations about parish shopping, the struggle to commit, and why sometimes the best community isn't the one with perfect liturgy or programs, it's the one where you show up consistently. Whether you're searching for your spiritual home or wondering if online connections can ever replace in-person fellowship, this episode offers practical wisdom for the journey.

In this Episode, We Explore:

Community Happens When People Need It (2:00-3:30)

• Why genuine encounters with God spark the desire for community
• How passion and shared interests naturally create fellowship

Whiskey and the Word: An Unconventional Small Group (4:00-14:00) Guest: Dr. Mark Heyman, Licensed Psychologist & Small Group Leader

• Creating low-barrier entry points for men's fellowship
• Why forced sharing turns people off from faith groups
• The importance of consistency: same time, same place, every week
• Understanding that not every group can (or should) be for everyone
• How whiskey breaks down barriers without being about getting drunk

Living in Community: Lessons from Catholic Worker Movement (20:00-32:00) Guest: Renée Roden, Journalist & Catholic Worker Member

• The reality check: community life is hard, even with a 1,300-year-old rule
• Why intimacy and friendship are foundational to sustainable community
• The temptation to become dictators of our own countercultural communes
• How families are successfully living the Catholic Worker vision
• Why conversion of heart requires healthy community support

Digital vs. In-Person Community (37:00-52:00) Guest: Luisamaria Hernandez, DeSales Media Success Consultant

• Using digital spaces as entry points to in-person connection
• Why commitment leads to consistency (and vice versa)
• The power of showing up: how to actually find communities in your area
• Why bulletins still matter (they're for introverts!)
• Understanding when virtual community serves vs. when it falls short

Meet Our Guests

Dr. Mark Heyman Licensed psychologist and host of the Whiskey and the Word men's group at St. Bridgid Parish in San Diego. Mark brings together men for fellowship, faith discussion, and whiskey appreciation—creating a space where authentic conversation happens organically.

• Website: thediabetespsychologist.com

Renée Roden Journalist, author, and Catholic Worker community member who writes about faith, culture, and the challenges of living radical hospitality. Featured previously on R2R Episode 7 discussing the expressive fruits.

• Website: reneedarlineroden.com

Luisamaria Hernandez Success and Solutions Consultant at DeSales Media with extensive experience in Catholic young adult ministry, including five years co-leading the young professional women's group at Harvard Catholic Center.

• Website: luisamariahernandez.com

Memorable Quotes 

"It's so hard to convert your own heart over and over and over again. And if you're not in a healthy community that supports you in that journey and is full of people committed to that together, it's going to go south so quickly." — Renée Roden

"Every group can't be all things to all people." — Fr. John Gribowich

"If you have that consistency, you're going to naturally be more committed. And I mean, structure would lead to clarity." — Luisamaria Hernandez

"We are just relational beings, right? That's just what we are. That's exactly how we are able to come to discover who we are." — Fr. John Gribowich

Key Moments

[00:00] Introduction: Why community keeps coming up in discipleship conversations
[02:00] Fr. John on discovering yourself through community encounters
[04:00] Mark Heyman: How Whiskey and the Word started
[05:30] The structure (or lack thereof) of their weekly gatherings
[08:00] Why observation periods help newcomers feel comfortable
[10:00] The debate: Does focusing on whiskey exclude some people?
[13:00] Every group can't be all things to all people
[15:00] Dave's parish shopping journey and coming full circle
[20:00] Renee Roden: Community life is harder than it looks
[22:00] Why Catholic Worker families are thriving
[24:00] The danger of becoming your own dictator
[27:00] Navigating different Catholic expressions in Worker houses
[32:00] The importance of clarification of terms in community
[37:00] Luisamaria on digital vs. in-person community
[42:00] How commitment creates consistency
[45:00] Practical tips: Join the WhatsApp groups and talk to people after Mass
[50:00] Why virtual spaces work best for task-oriented gatherings

Resources Mentioned

• SENT Community - Catholic entrepreneurship group where Dave met Mark Heyman
• Exodus 90 - Men's spiritual program mentioned by Mark's group members
• Catholic in Recovery - Organization founded by Scott Weiman
• OCIA (Order of Christian Initiation of Adults) - Process for becoming Catholic
• Harvard Catholic Center - Location of Luisamaria's young professional women's group
• CALLED Learning Community - Co-founded by Fr. John Gribowich (see below)
• Jenny Odell's work - Referenced regarding countercultural communes
• Dorothy Day - Founder of Catholic Worker Movement
• Peter Maurin - Co-founder of Catholic Worker Movement

Next Episode Preview

Join us next week as we dive into data from other studies and take a closer look at the Synod on Synodality. How is the global Church listening to its members, and what does that mean for your local parish?

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org
• Join the Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Support the Show

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary 

Are podcasts reshaping how Catholics engage with their faith? In this episode of Religion to Reality, we explore the explosive growth of Catholic podcasting and what it means for modern faith formation. From survivors finding their voice to Latino communities building networks, discover why this medium is uniquely positioned to meet people where they are—both spiritually and literally.

In this Episode, We Explore:

On the Nature of Catholic Media and Church Authority (00:00 - 08:00)

• "Anyone who's baptized is the church" - Paul Fahey challenges traditional boundaries of who creates "official" Catholic content
• Why the institutional church struggles with oversight in the podcast space
• The tension between empowering lay voices and preventing spiritual harm through misinformation

Measuring What Really Matters Beyond Downloads (11:00 - 17:00)

• "If one person's heart has been touched, you've done your task and mission" - Christina Semmens on redefining podcast success
• How the head-heart-hands-feet framework applies to both creating and consuming content
• Why discernment, not downloads, should drive your content decisions

From Fishing in Ponds to Sailing the Ocean (20:00 - 29:00)

• Jose Manuel de Urquidi's wake-up call: "We're all fishing in the same small pond while the ocean is right there"
• How John Paul II prophetically identified the internet as the "new Roman Forum" back in 2002
• Why podcasts can create deep encounters with God despite being one-way communication 

Meet Our Guests

Paul Fahey - Host of Third Space podcast, limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist who focuses on survivors of church-related abuse. Paul stumbled into podcasting a decade ago and found it uniquely suited to catechesis through dialogue rather than static writing.

Christina Semmens - Host of Say Yes to Holiness With 230+ episodes under her belt, Christina brings a framework of head-heart-hands-feet to integrated Catholic living. Her podcast emerged from her book work and has become a continuous discernment journey.

Jose Manuel de Urquidi - Founder of the Juan Diego Network Leading a podcast network dedicated to Latino Catholics with shows covering everything from church history to children's stories. His mission: evangelize, form, and entertain—preferably all three at once.

Memorable Quotes 

01:00 - "I can listen to a podcast while driving, running, doing dishes, mowing the lawn" - Why convenience matters for busy Catholics

05:00 - The fundamental question: What even counts as "the church" in new media?

07:00 - "There's a lot of bad Catholic content out there that misrepresents God" - The dark side of unregulated faith content

12:00 - The head-heart-hands-feet framework for integrated spiritual assessment

15:00 - Why passion and joy matter more than metrics in discernment

18:00 - "What unsuccessful podcasts don't want you to know: it was really just for us all along"

23:00 - The critical realization: Are we preaching to the choir while ignoring the ocean?

26:00 - Why St. Ignatius's book-driven conversion is no different than what a podcast can do

28:00 - The internet as culture, not just communication tool

Resources Mentioned

Podcasts Referenced

• On Being with Krista Tippett
• Third Space (Paul Fahey)
• The Telepathy Tapes (autism communication)
• The Heart's Desire and Social Change (Fr. Dan Groody, Notre Dame)
• The Attentive Heart Podcast (Fr. John Gribowich, Sunday to Sunday)
• The Bible in a Year with Fr. Mike Schmitz

Theological Concepts & Frameworks

• Head-Heart-Hands-Feet spiritual assessment model (from Dr. Bob Masson's "The Charmed Circle")
• Movable square meter (your personal sphere of influence)
• Digital evangelization and the "new Roman Forum"
• Seeds of the Verbum (finding Gospel seeds in culture)
• Discipleship funnel model

Podcasts

• Third Space Podcast: catholicthirdspace.com
• wherepeteris.com
• Say Yes to Holiness: sayyestoholiness.com
• Juan Diego Network: juandiegonetwork.com

Papal Documents on Digital Media

• John Paul II's 2002 World Communications Day message (internet as "new Roman Forum")
• Pope Benedict XVI's 2009 World Communicatiions Day message (internet as the "digital continent")
• Pope Benedict XVI's 2011 World Communications Day message (on digital authenticity)
• Pope Francis's 2016 morning meditation on the "culture of encounter"

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Are you attending Mass regularly but struggling to live out your faith in everyday life? You're not alone. In this episode of Religion to Reality, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore why so many Catholics feel confident in their sacramental life but struggle with the expressive fruits of discipleship, particularly the corporal and spiritual works of mercy.

Drawing from their groundbreaking discipleship study, they sit down with three inspiring guests who are living these works of mercy in radically different ways: Renee Roden from the Catholic Worker Movement, Fr. Jim O'Shea of Reconnect Brooklyn, and Christina Semmens of Say Yes to Holiness. Together, they unpack what it truly means to become Eucharist in the world and how small acts of mercy in our daily lives can transform both ourselves and our communities.

In this Episode, We Explore:

Introduction: The Disconnect Between Mass and Mercy (00:00)

• Overview of expressive fruits from the discipleship study
• Why Catholics rate themselves low on works of mercy despite strong sacramental participation

Interview with Renee Roden - Catholic Worker Movement (3:00)

• The relationship between the Eucharist and works of mercy
• How the liturgical movement influenced Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin
• Why there should be no division between "helpers" and "the helped"

Mass as Commissioning (9:22)

• Understanding "Go forth, the Mass is ended" as a call to action
• Integrating material and spiritual needs in service
• The danger of separating soup kitchens from spiritual community

Practical First Steps for Living the Works of Mercy (13:00)

• Why accompanying someone already doing this work matters
• Overcoming the awkwardness of personal encounter
• Building spiritual muscles through community

Interview with Father Jim O'Shea - Reconnect Brooklyn (15:00)

• Working with at-risk youth in Bedford-Stuyvesant
• How radical solidarity costs us our comfortable narratives
• The fear that keeps us from authentic engagement

The Power of Listening (18:30)

• Why Fr. Jim says we've "written off" certain groups of people
• Starting with those in proximity before reaching the margins
• Working the muscle of deep listening in your own family

Interview with Christina Semmens - Say Yes to Holiness (25:00)

• Recognizing works of mercy already happening in daily life
• The confirmation student who discovered he was "feeding the hungry" by helping his brother with homework
• Your "movable square meter" of influence

Head vs. Heart Encounters (30:00)

• Why works of mercy are more heart encounters than intellectual exercises
• Making your service more intentional, not just checking boxes
• How recognizing what you're already doing strengthens the muscle

Key Takeaways 

• The Mass sends us forth: The word "Mass" literally means "to be sent"—we're commissioned to become Eucharist in the world
• No helpers vs. helped: The Catholic Worker movement reminds us we're all called to serve each other mutually, not from a position of superiority
• Start by listening: The most practical first step is learning to truly listen—to family members, neighbors, and eventually those in the margins
• You're already doing it: Many works of mercy happen naturally in family life—feeding children, helping with homework, welcoming neighbors—we just need to recognize them
• Your movable square meter: Wherever you are, the space within arm's reach is your sphere of influence to be Christ for others
• Comfortable narratives must be disrupted: True solidarity with the marginalized will upset our comfortable stories about ourselves, our families, and our nation
• Work the muscle: Like physical exercise, the practice of mercy and listening requires consistent effort with people in proximity before we can extend it further

Meet Our Guests 

Renee Roden - Journalist, author, and member of the Catholic Worker movement. Former marketing team member at DeSales Media and Notre Dame alumna. Renee brings firsthand experience of living in intentional community while serving those in need.

Fr. Jim O'Shea - Passionist priest and co-founder of Reconnect, an organization providing training, opportunity, and direction for at-risk youth in Brooklyn's Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood. Fr. Jim has dedicated his life to building bridges between disparate communities.

Christina Semmens - Author and founder of Say Yes to Holiness, a ministry dedicated to helping Catholics recognize and embrace God's call to holiness in everyday life. Christina specializes in helping people identify works of mercy already present in their daily routines. 

Memorable Quotes 

"There is no division between people who do the helping and the helped. I'm not just a helper. The point of the works of mercy is we're all supposed to be doing it for each other." - Renee Roden

"The Eucharist contains a call for us to go be Eucharist in the world, right? To become what we received." - Renee Roden

"If we do it well, our narrative is going to be upset. And none of us want that narrative messed with." - Fr. Jim O'Shea

"One of the biggest things I think we all can do is start listening to the people. There's so many people and groups of people that we have written off." - Fr. Jim O'Shea

"Until we had talked about what the corporal works of mercy and spiritual works of mercy were, he didn't realize that he was feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, and instructing the ignorant by simply sitting down with his younger brother after school, getting him a snack and then helping him with his homework." - Christina Semmens

Resources Mentioned

• Catholic Worker Movement
• Reconnect Brooklyn
• Say Yes to Holiness
• Cursillo Movement

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Join us next week as we’ll be getting a little meta with it and talk about podcasting.

Connect With Us

• Visit religiontoreality.org
• Join the Called Learning Community: calledcommunity.com

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Support the Show

• Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
• Leave a rating and review to help others discover the show
• Share episodes with friends who might benefit from these conversations

Quick Summary

Why do so many Catholics struggle to share their faith, even when they want to? In this episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the personal and professional barriers that prevent Catholics from evangelizing effectively. Through conversations with Monica Martinez, parish lead at Hallow, Emily Ricci, founder and CEO of Gloriam Marketing, and Peter Andrastek, a senior consultant at the Evangelical Catholic, they discover that the solution isn't more training or techniques, but something far more fundamental: authentic relationship, genuine encounter, and what you might call "pre-evangelization." If you've ever felt uncomfortable with the word "evangelization" or wondered why your parish's outreach efforts fall flat, this episode offers a refreshing perspective that puts listening, presence, and personal holiness before programs and strategies.

In This Episode, We Explore:

• Why the word "evangelization" makes many Catholics uncomfortable (1:00)
  • "There needs to be almost what I would think call a pre-evangelization that takes priority over evangelization... It's so much caught up in the whole realm of listening, proactively hearing what people are saying and hearing it well." - Fr. John Gribowich
• The medium is the message: How Jesus embodies this truth (3:00)
  • Understanding the incarnation as the ultimate example of medium as message
  • Why focusing on doctrine first can muddy the real goal of evangelization
• Post-COVID parish evangelization efforts (7:00)
  • Monica Martinez shares what's working: welcoming gestures, hospitality, and simple recognition of new visitors
  • How one parish's director of evangelization makes newcomers feel valued
• Why Mass is often the wrong entry point for evangelization (9:00)
  • The complexity barrier for outsiders: "This is boring. Why am I here?"
  • The importance of encounter over information: "It's not so much about saying 'tell me that God loves me.' It's experiencing the love of God."
• Teaching Masses as a tool for formation (13:00)
  • Father John's experiences with Pre-Cana couples, RCIA candidates, and high school students
  • When and how teaching Masses work effectively
• The mutual evangelization principle (16:00)
  • "The person who feels called to evangelize needs to also equally feel called to be evangelized by the person they are trying to evangelize." - Fr. John Gribowich
  • Recognizing that Christ is already at work in every person's life
• Parish marketing challenges and solutions (19:00)
  • Emily Ricci on the top three obstacles: lack of time, lack of skills, lack of finances
  • Why "product before promotion" matters: You need something worth inviting people to
• The language problem in evangelization (22:00)
  • Moving from "what and where" to "why and how"
  • Using testimonial language from actual participants to communicate value
• What parishes get wrong about evangelization (22:00)
  • "They're typically very different... the parish that's going to be in the best spot to evangelize is the parish that's already active and vibrant."
  • Why you need to engage people in the pews before reaching new people
• The 12-step program model for Church community (33:00)
  • What the Church can learn: ritual, vulnerability, accessibility, and companionship
  • Shoutout to Catholic in Recovery (catholicinrecovery.org)
• Holiness over technique (35:00)
  • "If we reduce evangelization to something you can just train someone for... we reduce evangelization to the manipulation of human techniques." - Peter Andrastek
  • The power of a "love-transformed life" that radiates peace and joy
• The pull vs. push approach to faith sharing (40:00)
  • Why authenticity matters: "People can smell an agenda like poop on a shoe"
  • Letting curiosity draw people in rather than pushing a message