Off The Shelf

Episode 92 – Charles Paisley (Part 4)

Rod Bergen — Sat, 28 Jun 2025 20:07:43 +0000

This is the conclusion of our interview with Charles Paisley. Charles was born into the message and grew up in raised in Faith Assembly Church in Clarksville, Indiana where Junior Jackson was the pastor. Charles became assistant pastor of the church in the years after Raymond Jackson died. Charles is currently a minister at The Gospel Church of Jeffersonville, Indiana, where he is working with other former message believers to help people find community and support as they leave the message.

Episode 91 – Charles Paisley (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Sun, 23 Feb 2025 02:22:24 +0000

Charles Paisley was born into the message and grew up in raised in Faith Assembly Church in Clarksville, Indiana where Junior Jackson was the pastor. Charles became assistant pastor of the church in the years after Raymond Jackson died. Charles is currently a minister at The Gospel Church of Jeffersonville, Indiana, where he is working with other former message believers to help people find community and support as they leave the message.

Episode 90 - Charles Paisley (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 03:28:52 +0000

Episode 89 - Charles Paisley - Another minister leaves the message

Rod Bergen — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 22:24:49 +0000

Charles Paisley was born into the message and was raised in Faith Assembly Church in Clarksville, Indiana where Junior Jackson was the pastor. Charles became assistant pastor of the church in the years after Raymond Jackson died. He has traveled international and has visited dozens of message Churches. His family has been in the message […]

Episode 88 - The Serpent's Tail (Part 5)

Rod Bergen — Sat, 25 Jun 2022 20:26:36 +0000

This is the conclusion of our interview with Deborah Daulton Thibodeau. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books is available directly from the publisher or from Amazon. Why were Ed Daulton’s last words : “Brother Branham, lied to me. I have been betrayed!” …

Continue reading ""

Episode 87 - The Serpent's Tail (Part 4)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 30 May 2022 22:13:26 +0000

Rod continues his interview with Deborah Daulton Thibodeau in this episode. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books is available directly from the publisher or from Amazon. The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 86 - The Serpent's Tail (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 02 May 2022 00:24:50 +0000

In Part 3, Rod continues his interview with Deborah Daulton Thibodeau. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books is available directly from the publisher or from Amazon. The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 85 - The Serpent's Tail (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Sun, 03 Apr 2022 00:14:32 +0000

In this episode, Rod continues his interview with Deborah Daulton Thibodeau. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books is available directly from the publisher or from Amazon. The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

Episode 84 - The Serpent's Tail - Abuse in the Park

Rod Bergen — Thu, 03 Mar 2022 00:15:06 +0000

In this episode, Rod interviews Deborah Daulton Thibodeau, the youngest daughter of Ed Daulton. Her story is chronicled in “The Serpent’s Tail”, which Deb has authored. The book is published by Adelaide books and is available on Amazon and directly from Adelaide Books. In the summer of 1962, about sixty members of several large extended …

Continue reading ""

Episode 83 - The Downfall of the Message in Brazil? (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Tue, 25 Jan 2022 20:05:57 +0000

This is part 2 of our interview with Arthur Antunes, the author of “The Secret of the Seventh Angel: The Downfall of Branhamism” which was published in July 2021 in Brazil. Arthur Antunes is a pseudonym or pen name and the true identity of the author remains a secret. For the purpose of this interview […]

Episode 82 - What is happening to the Message in Brazil?

Rod Bergen — Wed, 22 Dec 2021 17:34:09 +0000

In this episode, Rod interviews Arthur Antunes, the author of “The Secret of the Seventh Angel: The Downfall of Branhamism” which was published in July 2021 in Brazil.

Arthur Antunes is a pseudonym or pen name and the true identity of the author remains a secret. For the purpose of this interview the voice of our guest has been disguised using up to date computer technology.

Followers of the message in Brazil have been rocked by a sexual scandal involving Joaquim Gonçalves da Silva, one of the most well known message pastors in Brazil. The allegations against him came out in June 2021 and he died of Covid-19 in August, shortly after the book was published.

External Links

If you speak Portuguese, you should download the book – O SEGREDO DO SÉTIMO ANJO: A DERROCADA DO BRANHAMISMO by Arthur Antunes
BelieveTheSign website article on
- Joaquim Gonçalves Silva
- Vinworth Dayal

The transcript of our podcast is available to download:

OTS 82 Arthur Antunes final transcript Download

Episode 81 – Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Sat, 27 Nov 2021 19:09:29 +0000

Rod, Emily and Tim conclude their discussion with former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years.

Link to the Testimony of James Manuel

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

OTS-81-James-Manuel-Transcript Download

Episode 80 – Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 22 Oct 2021 13:00:00 +0000

Rod, Emily and Tim continue their discussion with former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years.

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

OTS-80-James-Manuel-Transcript Download

Episode 79 – Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Tue, 21 Sep 2021 01:42:43 +0000

Rod, Emily and Tim interview former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years.

This interview continues James’ story from where we left off in Episode 52.

External links:

BelieveTheSign article – Message pastor Vin Dayal charged with money laundering
BelieveTheSign article – The Testimony of James Manuel
How does a person become a Christian?

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

OTS-79-James-Manuel-transcript-part-1 Download

Episode 78 - Pastor Jeff Jenkins - 7 Years Later (Part 4)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 20 Aug 2021 02:00:00 +0000

Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio for almost 33 and a half years. In the conclusion of our interview, we talk about whether what his advice is to those that have left the message and what the proper approach should be to religion and faith based on his experience since leaving the message.

Links
– Finding God in the Waves by Mike McHargue
– Our first interview with Pastor Jeff
– Jeff Jenkins discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

OTS-76-Jeff-Jenkins-Part-4 Download

Episode 77 - Pastor Jeff Jenkins - 7 Years Later (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 23 Jul 2021 02:00:00 +0000

Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio for almost 33 and a half years. In part 3 of our interview, we talk about whether he has had any contact with other message ministers since he left the message and how his ministry has developed over the past 7 years.

Links
– Our first interview with Pastor Jeff
– Jeff Jenkins discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

OTS-76-Jeff-Jenkins-Part-3 Download

Episode 76 - Pastor Jeff Jenkins - 7 Years Later (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Sat, 26 Jun 2021 20:44:47 +0000

Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio for almost 33 and a half years. In part 2 of our interview, we talk about what has surprised him most since he left the message.

Links
– Our first interview with Pastor Jeff
– Jeff Jenkins discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

OTS-76-Jeff-Jenkins-Part-2 Download

Episode 75 - Pastor Jeff Jenkins - Seven Years Later (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 21 May 2021 11:59:00 +0000

Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio for almost 33 and a half years. Rod Bergen and Tim Kraus talk to Jeff about:

– What have been the biggest changes in his thinking since he left the message 7 years ago?
– What has surprised him most since he left the message?
– Has he had any contact with other message ministers since he left?
– How has his ministry developed since he left the message?
– What is his advice to those that have left the message?
– What is the proper approach to religion and faith based on his experience since leaving the message?

Links
– Our first interview with Pastor Jeff
– Jeff Jenkins discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

OTS-75-Jeff-Jenkins-Part-1 Download

Episode 74 - Talks with Tim - Donny Reagan Gets Excited

Rod Bergen — Fri, 14 May 2021 10:00:00 +0000

This is the first in a new series that we are going to be doing called Talks with Tim. Tim Kraus, as our regular listeners know, is one of the co-hosts on Off The Shelf. If you would like some background on Tim, please listen to episode 61 where we talk to Tim at length about his experiences with the message.

We get people who send us video links on occasion. And some of them are, honestly, so disturbing, that we feel we need to respond to them. This podcast is one such response.

Related video link – Donny Reagan Gets Excited

The following is a transcript of the podcast:

OTS-74-Transcript-Donny-Reagan-Gets-Excited Download

Episode 73 - The 2020 Debate (Part 7)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 07 May 2021 04:00:00 +0000

This is the conclusion of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet. Jax Cox and Tim Kraus act as moderators. The discussion focused around this agreed issue:

William Branham is considered by his followers to be a prophet and, specifically, the messenger to the church of Laodicea (the fulfillment of Rev 3:14), the Elijah prophet (fulfilling Malachi4:5-6) and the angel of Revelation 10:7. Was William Branham who his followers say he is?

This episode is comprised of the closing statements of both Jesse Smith and Rod Bergen.

The following is a transcript of part 7 of our discussion:

OTS-73-The-Debate-part-7 Download

Episode 72 - The 2020 Debate (Part 6)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:58:00 +0000

This is part 6 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet. Jax Cox and Tim Kraus act as moderators. In this portion of our discussion, we deal with:

If William Branham’s teaching is correct, why do message followers display so little love for those who leave?
Why is the fruit of the message so bad?
Did William Branham have any valid prophecies? Three prophecies are specifically considered:
- First, the immoral condition of the church;
- Second, that no greater ministry to the Gentiles would rise than William Branham; and
- Third, that no denomination would ever break up and come back to the word.

These questions all focused around the agreed question for discussion:

External links

The following is a transcript of part 6 of our discussion:

OTS-72-The-Debate-part-6 Download

Episode 71 - The 2020 Debate (Part 5)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 23 Apr 2021 06:00:00 +0000

This is part 5 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet. Jax Cox and Tim Kraus act as moderators. Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with:

Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with the following:

If William Branham’s teaching is correct, why did God require Christians in earlier ages to believe false doctrine in order to be saved?
Are Trinitarians Christians?
Is there clear proof that William Branham lied habitually?
Why did William Branham fake that he spoke in tongues?

These questions all focused around the agreed question for discussion:

The following is a transcript of part 5 of our discussion:

OTS-71-The-Debate-part-5 Download

Episode 70 - The 2020 Debate (Part 4)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 16 Apr 2021 08:00:00 +0000

This is part 4 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet. Jax Cox and Tim Kraus act as moderators. Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with:

Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with

Does the Holy Spirit lead a person into the message?
Was William Branham lying when he said that he was standing under the Cloud?
Does the doctrine of the Trinity teach that God has 3 minds?
Did any giants of the Christian faith not follow the doctrine of the Trinity?

These questions all focused around the agreed question for discussion:

The following is a transcript of part 4 of our discussion:

OTS-70-The-Debate-part-4 Download

Episode 69 - The 2020 Debate (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Sun, 11 Apr 2021 03:44:34 +0000

This is part 3 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet. Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with:

How do we respond to WMB’s failed visions given the clear requirements of Deuteronomy 18:20 to 22?
How is this affected by cognitive bias?
Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit a separate work of grace, like salvation?
Do you have to accept the message of William Branham to be born again?
If WMB was the messenger to the church of Laodicea, the Elijah prophet and the angel of revelation 10:7, how could he be so lacking in credibility?

These questions all focused around the agreed question for discussion:

The following is a transcript of part 3 of our discussion:

OTS-69-The-Debate-part-3 Download

Episode 68 - The 2020 Debate (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 03:31:00 +0000

This is part 2 of our discussion with message pastor Jesse Smith regarding the status of William Branham as a prophet. Specifically, in this portion of our discussion, we deal with the King James Version Only-ism, women wearing pants and whether it is OK to condemn people who are not Christians. Jay Cox and Tim Kraus are the moderators of our discussion.

The agreed question for discussion:

Music – The Disease of Conceit by Bob Dylan from the album, “Oh Mercy” (1989) – Available on Apple Music

Debate-Part-2-2020-09-12-Descript-edit Download

Episode 67 - The 2020 Debate (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:58:47 +0000

On September 12, 2020, the first-ever English language debate was held between a message pastor (Jesse Smith of Akron, OH) and an ex-message Christian (Rod Bergen from the Off The Shelf podcast and the BelieveTheSign website). The discussion was moderated by C. Jay Cox and Tim Kraus.

The agreed question for discussion:

In Part 1, Jay Cox and Tim Kraus introduce the participants followed by the opening statements of Pastor Jesse Smith and Rod Bergen.

Music – War in my Mind by Beth Hart – Available on Apple Music

Debate Part 1 2020 09 12 transcript Download

Episode 66 - The Seven Thunders - An Interview with Eleisha Moreno (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 01 Mar 2021 01:27:34 +0000

This is the conclusion of the interview with Eleisha Moreno, a former follower of Joseph Coleman, who initiated the Seven Thunders Inspiration, a sub-cult within the “Message” (which is how followers of William Branham refer to themselves).

Book – When Prophecy Fails by Leon Festinger

Music – Losing My Religion by Lauren Daigle from the album, “Look Up Child” – Available on Apple Music

Episode 65 - The Seven Thunders - An Interview with Eleisha Moreno (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:41:33 +0000

In this episode, Emily, Rod, and Tim interview Eleisha Moreno, a former follower of Joseph Coleman, who initiated the Seven Thunders Inspiration, a sub-cult within the “Message” (which is how followers of William Branham refer to themselves).

Rod starts the podcast with an editorial comment on a topic that is getting a lot of play on social media with followers of William Branham – the election of Kamala Harris as vice president of the united states AND the fact that she wore a purple dress at her inauguration.

External Links
– The Kamala Harris Prophecy
– The FBI report on the Seven Thunders Ponzi Scheme

Music – Man Comes Around by Johnny Cash from the album, “American IV: The Man Comes Around” – Available on Apple Music

Episode 64 - The Seven Thunders - An Interview with Eleisha Moreno (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Sun, 20 Dec 2020 21:51:52 +0000

In this episode, Emily, Rod, and Tim interview Eleisha Moreno, a former follower of Joseph Coleman, who initiated the Seven Thunders Inspiration, a sub-cult within the “Message” (which is how followers of William Branham refer to themselves).

Joseph Coleman preached his first sermon in Eleisha’s grandparents’ home in the early 1960’s, so Eleisha’s knowledge of the Seven Thunders movement dates to its infancy.

Music – Man Comes Around by Johnny Cash from the album, “American IV: The Man Comes Around” – Available on Apple Music

Episode 63 - Introducing Your New Co-Hosts (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 05:00:00 +0000

This episode concludes the discussion with our new co-hosts. Rod Bergen talks to Emily Arndt and Tim Kraus about a number of important issues relating to the message.

External links - Article on Pastor Vinworth Dayal from Trinidad

Music - God Still Loves Me by Andrae Crouch - Available on Apple Music

Episode 62 - Introducing your new co-hosts (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 02:17:41 +0000

This episode continues the introduction of our new co-hosts. Rod Bergen talks to Emily Arndt and Tim Kraus about a number of important issues relating to the message.

Music - The Storm Still Rages by Rhonda Vincent - Available on Apple Music

Episode 61 - Season 2 Kick-Off - Introducing Your New Co-Hosts

Rod Bergen — Sat, 19 Sep 2020 18:58:46 +0000

Season 2 (Episode 61) of Off The Shelf starts with an introduction to our new co-hosts. Rod Bergen talks to Emily Arndt (see episode 16) about what has happened to her over the last couple of years and Tim Kraus tells of how he came to the message and why he left.

Music - Call Nobody Here Your Teacher by Don Francisco - Available on Amazon

Episode 60 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 4)

Rod Bergen — Fri, 08 May 2020 03:00:00 +0000

Listen to Jay Cox, a message follower, in a conversation with Rod Bergen, a former message believer. In this conclusion of their interview,, they discuss why someone should follow William Branham and the status is of those who do not follow William Branham.

Other topics referred to in the interview:

Dallas Willard on Post-modern Holiness - see video below
The Insanity of God by Nik Ripken - see video below (learn more)
The status of message followers
What should we believe?

https://youtu.be/RjVh-8mqgfo

Nik Ripken - The Insanity of God

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzSeHsVmulc

Dallas Willard - Postmodern Holiness

Music - Blues composition from Band-in-a-Box (Rod Bergen)

Episode 59 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Sat, 02 May 2020 22:49:20 +0000

With apologies for an almost 2 year hiatus, Rod continues his conversation with Jay Cox, a follower of William Branham. In part 3, they discuss whether William Branham made any real prophecies. Their discussion includes (click on the underlined links to read further):

1. Was William Branham credible?
2. The mystery of the Branham Tabernacle cornerstone
3. Vicarious Filii Dei

Related Links

Music - Blues composition from Band-in-a-Box (Rod Bergen)

Episode 58 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 27 Aug 2018 00:00:22 +0000

Rod continues his conversation with Jay Cox, a follower of William Branham. In this second part, they discuss whether William Branham made any real prophecies. Their discussion includes: What is the Biblical Test for a Prophet? The Seven Visions of 1933 Did President Roosevelt start World War 2? Video – The prophecy of the egg-shaped car The problems with the prophecy of driverless cars Music – Freedom by Josh Garrels from the album Underquiet – available from Josh Garrels website.

Episode 57 - An interview with message follower C. Jay Cox (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 11:19:00 +0000

Listen to Jay Cox, a message follower, in a conversation with Rod Bergen, a former message believer. In this first part, they discuss what it means to be a follower of William Branham; where Jay places himself in the world of the message and the types of prophecies that William Branham made.

External links:

The American Cynic Party page on Facebook (Jay Cox)
The American Cynic Party channel on Youtube (Jay Cox)
Power to Change
William Branham and “Thus Saith The Lord“
The Five Types of Prophecies that William Branham made
The problem of William Branham and Malachi 4:5-6
The problem of William Branham and Revelation 10:7
The problem of William Branham and the Seventh Church Age messenger

Music – I’ve Searched for Gold by Delirious? from The Cutting Edge Years – 20th Anniversary Edition. Available from iTunes

Episode 56 - An interview with Cindy and Anna Bergen (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 18 Jun 2018 15:19:17 +0000

Rod concludes the interview with his wife, Cindy and their daughter, Anna, regarding their experiences in the message and why they left.

Go to Part 1

Music – Father and Daughter by Paul Simon from the album The Essential Paul Simon (2007) – Available on iTunes

Episode 55 - An interview with Cindy and Anna Bergen (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 21 May 2018 00:36:51 +0000

In this installment of Off The Shelf, Rod interviews his wife, Cindy and his daughter, Anna, about their experiences in the message.

External links:

BelieveTheSign article – The Municipal Bridge Vision
Searching For Vindication website

Music – You Are So Beautiful by Joe Cocker from the album 20th Century Masters – The Millennium Collection: The Best of Joe Cocker (2000) – Available on iTunes

Episode 54 - An Interview with Dr. Gabriel Pollen (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 00:00:18 +0000

This is the conclusion of the interview with former message follower Dr. Gabriel Pollen of Zambia. Dr. Pollen recently received a Ph.D. in Economics from the University of London.

Dr. Pollen was raised in the message but recently came to grips with the problems in William Branham’s ministry. This is his story.

Go to Part 1

Music – Love Education by Jon Gibson from the album Love Education (1995) – available from Amazon.

Lyrics for Love Education

So here I am in solo fashion
I sit alone inside my passion
Counting my years, all of my tears
I’ve cried a million, conquered my fears
The battle’s won, over and done
And yet I know that I’ve only begun…

Love education
Graduation from sin
That’s all it really is, baby
Love education
Graduation from sin

So there you were, your heart was broken, oh, yeah
Burdened with pain, words left unspoken
Don’t worry none, daughter nor son
Love’s many lessons, this is just one
Love saw you through, made you brand new
And it’s an honor to welcome you to…

Love education
Graduation from sin
That’s all it really is, baby
Love education
Graduation from sin
That’s all it really is, baby

Oh, baby, sweet love
Talkin’ ’bout love, love, baby
That’s all it really is
That’s all it is
Love, love, love
You know we all need it
Love is a healer and it saves
Oh, love is amazing, my dear

Somebody sing with me
Love is very patient
Love is very kind
Love is never boastful, baby
Love is never proud, haughty or loud
Love is very peaceful
Does not demand its own way, baby
And it bears all things
Believes all things
Hopes all things
Endures all things

Love is amazing
And it keeps getting stronger
Every time you smile
I think you better just hang on
For a little while longer, my dear
Paint a pretty smile each day
Love is a blessing, oh…
My dear

Episode 53 - An Interview with Dr. Gabriel Pollen (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 19 Mar 2018 00:00:57 +0000

Rod interviews former message follower Dr. Gabriel Pollen of Zambia. Dr. Pollen recently received a Ph.D. in Economics from the University of London.

Dr. Pollen was raised in the message but recently came to grips with the problems in William Branham’s ministry. This is his story.

Music – Songs That Answer Questions by Gaither Vocal Band from Lovin’ God & Lovin’ Each Other (Sep 9, 1997) – available from iTunes.

Episode 52 - An interview with Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 19 Feb 2018 00:00:34 +0000

Rod continues his interview with former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years.

Since leaving the message, James has embarked on a mission to expose the lies, deception, fraud and corruption in the message wherever and whenever he gets an opportunity. He has challenged message ministers all over the world to prove the message correct and as a result has had some threaten his life.

James has stated that he is willing to publicly repent, recant and return to the message if anyone can convince him with hard evidence that his claims are false. Likewise, if you fail to disprove what he claims, are you willing to turn your back on the message and follow the Lord Jesus Christ?

External links:

BelieveTheSign article – The Testimony of James Manuel
How does a person become a Christian?
Power to Change

Music – Amazing Grace by Ladysmith Black Mambazo with Paul Simon, from the album Journey Of Dreams (1988) – available from Amazon

Episode 51 - An interview with Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 12 Feb 2018 00:00:04 +0000

Rod continues his interview with former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years. He believed it, he lived it and he preached it. The message was all his wife and children knew and it was all he knew.

External links:

BelieveTheSign article – The Testimony of James Manuel
How does a person become a Christian?

Music – Jarusalema by Johnny Clegg & Juluka from the album African Litany (April 16, 1995) – available from Amazon

Episode 50 - An interview with Pastor James Manuel of South Africa (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 00:00:01 +0000

James Manuel

Rod interviews former message pastor James Manuel of Cape Town, South Africa. James was in the message for almost 40 years. He believed it, he lived it and he preached it. The message was all his wife and children knew and it was all he knew.

He has stated that he is willing to publicly repent, recant and return to the message if anyone can convince him with hard evidence that his claims are false. Likewise, if you fail to disprove what he claims, are you willing to turn your back on the message and follow the Lord Jesus Christ?

External links:

BelieveTheSign article – The Testimony of James Manuel
How does a person become a Christian?

Music – Leaning On The Everlasting Arms by Ladysmith Black Mambazo
From the album Two Worlds One Heart – available from Google

Episode 49 - A Biblical view of the Seven Church Ages - An Interview with Andrew Loza (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 29 Jan 2018 00:00:04 +0000

Rod and Andrew Loza, a former police detective, continue their discussion of the doctrine of the seven church ages.

External links:

BelieveTheSign article on the Seven Church Age doctrine
BelieveTheSign article on whether the message is a cult
BelieveTheSign article on Christians that were required to believe Satanic doctrine

Music – Wishful Thinking by MercyMe from Welcome to the New (2014) – available from iTunes

Episode 48 - A Biblical view of the Seven Church Ages - An Interview with Andrew Loza (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 00:00:34 +0000

Rod and one of our listeners, Andrew Loza, a former police detective, discuss growing up in the message and what led him to leave the message. They also begin a discussion of the doctrine of the seven church ages.

Sermon quotes played in this podcast:

William Branham, The Invisible Union Of The Bride Of Christ, 65-1125, para. 240.
Chad Lamb, Believers Christian Fellowhip, The 7 Seals, part 14, Sept. 27, 2017
Chad Lamb, Believers Christian Fellowhip, The 7 Seals, part 16, October 8, 2017

External links:

BelieveTheSign article on the Seven Church Age doctrine
BelieveTheSign article on whether the message is a cult
BelieveTheSign article on Christians that were required to believe Satanic doctrine
Article fom BelieveTheSign on whether the message is the word of the hour.

Music – Rock of Ages by Amy Grant & Vince Gill from Rock of Ages… Hymns & Faith – available from iTunes

Episode 47 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 5)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 00:00:08 +0000

Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham. In this episode, Pastor Gwena’s defense of William Branham is challenged on the basis that:

All of William Branham’s prophecies are “after the fact” and even some of those he gets wrong.
William Branham made no valid “before the fact” prophecies on any of his publicly recorded sermons.

External Links:

A challenge to all message followers
Seek The Truth article on Roosevelt
Seek The Truth article on Roosevelt vs. Hitler
Believe The Sign article on Franklin D. Roosevelt
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Divine Commentary on the Message
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Defending the Prophet

Pastor Gwena is from Waltham Abbey (North London), UK where he is the pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church. Joining Rod is John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

Music – Doctor my eyes from the album, Jackson Browne, by Jackson Browne – available on iTunes

Episode 46 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 4)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 08 Jan 2018 00:00:06 +0000

Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham. They examine what cognitive dissonance is and discuss Pastor Gwena’s claim that he is not the one suffering from cognitive dissonance, rather it is John and Rod that are the ones that are experiencing cognitive dissonance. But is this really the case?

External Links:

Seek The Truth article on Cognitive Dissonance
BelieveTheSign article on Cognitive Dissonance
Video on the Brown Bear vision
Seek The Truth blog – How ‘Bout Them Second Brown Bears
BelieveTheSign article on the Brown Bear Vision
The Mystery of the Empty Cornerstone
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Divine Commentary on the Message
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Defending the Prophet

Music – Cognitive Dissonance by Brad Wray – listen to the entire song on YouTube.

Episode 45 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 02:36:49 +0000

Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham. Pastor Gwena is from Waltham Abbey (North London), UK where he is the pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church. Joining Rod is John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

External Links:

Article on the use of red herring arguments in defence of William Branham
Article on William Branham’s use of Thus Saith The Lord
Article on Testing a Prophet
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Divine Commentary on the Message
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Defending the Prophet

Music – The Word of God from the album, Choose Life, by Big Tent Revival – available from Amazon

Episode 44 - Christmas in the message

Rod Bergen — Sun, 24 Dec 2017 04:32:55 +0000

Rod and his daughter, Anna, share stories from our listeners about their experiences with celebrating (or not celebrating) Christmas in the message. Rod ends the podcast with a description of what Christmas is really all about.

External links

Article on Christianity and the Celebration of Christmas
Article on William Branham and the Birth of Jesus

Music – Hark! The Herald Angels Sing from Christmas Cookies (2005) by The Oak Ridge Boys – available on iTunes

Episode 43 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:00:29 +0000

Rod & John continue to examine Wisper Gwena’s defence of William Branham. Specifically, they examine a number of significant problems with William Branham such as the lack of newspaper articles which William Branham said appeared across the US and Canada; his lies about travelling around the world seven times; his visit to Pigalle; the problems with Congressman Upshaw; William Branham’s first commission which he stopped talking about after he changed his story; and the failed healing of Donny Morton. Detailed links are below.

External Links:

Seek The Truth article on the 1933 baptism
Believe The Sign article on 1933 Ohio River experience
Youtube video – Was there a Voice on the Ohio River in 1933
Did William Branham travel around the world seven times?
William Branham visits Pigalle
Seek the Truth article on Congressman Upshaw
Believe The Sign article on Congressman Upshaw
YouTube video: Was William Branham Honest? (Part 1) – His Life Story
Seek The Truth article on the Branham Tabernacle
Believe The Sign article – Was William Branham honest?
Voice of God Recordings Accidentally Publishes Branham’s Missing “First Ministry” Advertisement
William Branham’s tract on the “Heavenly Vision“
Seek The Truth article on The Tragedy of Donny Morton
Believe The Sign article on Donny Morton
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Divine Commentary on the Message
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Defending the Prophet

Music – Jesus is the Answer by Andraé Crouch from The Definitive Greatest Hits (2005) – available from iTunes

Episode 42 - How to defend William Branham... poorly (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 11 Dec 2017 00:00:17 +0000

In this episode, Rod responds to a defense of William Branham that was presented by Wisper Gwena, pastor of Spoken Word Ministry church, Waltham Abbey (North London), UK. Rod is joined by John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana. John is also the author of two books, “Stone Mountain to Dallas: The Untold Story of Roy Elonza Davis” and “Jim Jones – The Malachi 4 Elijah Prophecy”.

In this episode, Rod & John discuss the following:

Personal accusations made by Pastor Gwena.
Is there a difference between facts and the truth?
Is the research contained on the Seek The Truth and Believe The Sign websites error-free?

External Links:

Seek The Truth website
List of issues on the Believe The Sign website
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Divine Commentary on the Message
Pastor Wisper Gwena’s sermon – Defending the Prophet

Music – The Cold Hard Facts by The Del McCoury Band from The Cold Hard Facts (1996) – available from iTunes

Episode 41 - Recovering from the message

Rod Bergen — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 00:00:05 +0000

Several weeks ago, we received an email from a listener. Here is an excerpt from that email:

In a nutshell, I feel like I am in the very beginning stages of “Message Recovery”… terrified of attending “any church”, still struggling with fear of “damnation” and “total confusion” of who/what God is vs. the Indoctrination of the Message.

Your Podcasts were my turning point….thank you so much for putting them out there….

Thank you, I wait every Sunday for a new one to be released….they are my Lifeline right now. Struggling with severe depression, but the Podcasts have helped immensely.

I am looking forward to the subject of “Message Recovery, you have decided to leave….now what….where do we go…what do we do…where in society and the non-message church world do we fit in?”

I FEEL LIKE AN ALIEN, I never felt comfortable and like I measured up or fit in at the Message Church or among the people….and felt like a person caught in between worlds outside…always awkwardly never finding the place for me…and always critical, filtering other churches against Message standards….so I just want to sit down in the middle of the street a cry….I am a lost sheep.

One thing I discovered….when you push WMB out of the way….it is startling that behind him the entire time there was Christ on the Cross…!! WMB was impeding and interfering with my ability to function or having a relationship with Christ. I was too busy trying to meet the Message Criteria, and give reverence to the Message and the Prophet….which seemed to totally exclude the Simplicity of God’s Love and the Salvation Christ alone offers!

We have reached out to a number of people that have left the message and asked them for their thoughts on the question posed by our listener – “You have decided to leave….now what….where do we go…what do we do…where in society and the non-message church world do we fit in?”

This podcast seeks to answer our listener’s question.

External Links:

Find a Community Bible Study in your area
Find a Celebrate Recovery group in the US
Find a Celebrate Recovery group in Canada
Find an Alpha course near you

Music – One Day by Matt Redman from Glory song (2017) – available from iTunes.

Episode 40 - Interview with Paul & Kathy Jenkins (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 27 Nov 2017 00:00:27 +0000

This is part 2 of the interview with former message followers, Paul & Kathy Jenkins. Paul’s father, Lonnie Jenkins, was a well known teacher in the message and Paul was also the worship leader for many years at Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio. Paul is the brother of Jeff Jenkins, who we have interviewed several times on Off The Shelf.

External Links:

What is cognitive dissonance and why do message followers suffer from it?
Facebook discussion page
BelieveTheSign – complete list of issues with the message

Music – Freedom by Josh Garrels from The House of Worship Project (2012) – available from Bandcamp.

Episode 39 - Interview with Paul & Kathy Jenkins (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 20 Nov 2017 00:00:31 +0000

In this episode, Rod talks to former message followers, Paul & Kathy Jenkins. Paul’s father, Lonnie Jenkins, was a well known teacher in the message and Paul was also the worship leader for many years at Believers Christian Fellowship in Lima, Ohio. Paul is the brother of Jeff Jenkins, who we have interviewed several times on Off The Shelf.

External Links:

Facebook discussion page
BelieveTheSign – complete list of issues with the message

Music – Freedom by Josh Garrels from The House of Worship Project (2012) – available from Bandcamp.

Episode 38 - Interview with John Collins (Part 4)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 00:00:32 +0000

This is the conclusion of our interview with John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website.

In this episode, John talks about, among other things:

William Branham and the Ku Klux Klan (the KKK)
William Branham and Roy Davis
William Branham and Jim Jones
The Latter Rain Movement
The Manifest Sons of God

External Links:

Music – Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself by The Louvin Brothers from Preach The Gospel (2015) – available from iTunes

Episode 37 - Interview with John Collins (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Sun, 05 Nov 2017 00:00:59 +0000

This is part 3 of our interview with John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website.

In this episode, John talks about, among other things:

His views on the message street preachers in London, Ontario – Steve Ravbar and Matthew Carapella.
Were William Branham’s derogatory statements only against women that were not his followers?
Would William Branham condone the type of things that Matthew Carapella and Steve Ravbar are saying and doing?

External Links:

Music – Try a Little Kindness by The Oak Ridge Boys from Try a Little Kindness (1974) – available from Amazon

Episode 36 - Interview with John Collins (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Sun, 29 Oct 2017 00:00:10 +0000

This is part 2 of the interview with John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website.

In this episode, John talks about, among other things:

Are people who leave the message bitter or angry towards people in the message?
What led him to start seekyethetruth.com in early 2012.
The new direction in his blog

External Links:

Music – New Pharisees by Charlie Daniels from Steel Witness (1996) – available from iTunes

Episode 35 - Interview with John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website

Rod Bergen — Sun, 22 Oct 2017 00:00:38 +0000

In this episode, Rod talks to John Collins, author of the Seek The Truth website and grandson of Willard Collins, the former pastor of Branham Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana. John is also the author of two books, “Stone Mountain to Dallas: The Untold Story of Roy Elonza Davis” and “Jim Jones – The Malachi 4 Elijah Prophecy”.

In this episode, John talks about, among other things:

Growing up in the message (followers of William Branham refer to themselves as being “in the message”).
How is being born into the message different from those who came into the message later in life?
Is the message a cult?
His recent interview on CBC Radio regarding the message street preachers in London, Ontario;
Are people in the “Message” isolated?
The sub-cults of the message.

External Links:

Music – Questions by Matt Redman from Glory Song (2017) – available from Amazon

Episode 34 - Abdu Murray - A former Muslim discusses the doctrine of the Trinity (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 16 Oct 2017 00:00:40 +0000

In this episode, Rod concludes his interview with well known apologist and author, Abdu Murray.

For most of his life, Abdu was a proud Muslim who studied the Qur’an and Islam. After a nine-year investigation into the historical, philosophical, and scientific underpinnings of the major world religions and views, Abdu discovered that the historic Christian faith can answer the questions of the mind and the longings of the heart.

In this episode, Rod and Abdu discuss the doctrine of the Trinity including:

whether analogies are useful in understanding the Trinity:
baptism in the name of Jesus Christ;
whether a person is required to believe the doctrine of the Trinity to be considered a Christian; and
what it means to be a true follower of Jesus Christ.

External Links:

Music – Praise the Father, Praise the Son by Chris Tomin (2008) – available from Amazon

Episode 33 - Abdu Murray - A former Muslim discusses the doctrine of the Trinity (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 09 Oct 2017 00:00:12 +0000

In this episode, Rod continues with part 2 of his interview with h well known apologist and author, Abdu Murray.

In this episode, Rod and Abdu discuss the doctrine of the Trinity, including:

the biblical basis for the doctrine of the Trinity;
the logical basis for the doctrine of the Trinity;
how the doctrine of the Trinity proves God to be the Greatest Possible Being over and above a Oneness or Islamic conception of God;
the concept of persons in the Trinity and perichoresis;
Specific issues raised by Oneness Pentecostals or modalists, including:
- Isaiah 9:6
- John 10:30
- John 12:45
- John 14:9; and
the charge made by modalists and Islam of tritheism.

External Links:

Abdu Murray’s video testimony
Abdu Murray’s website
Books by Abdu Murray on Amazon

Music – I Believe by Charles Johnson and the Revivers from I Believe (1995) – available from Amazon

Episode 32 - Abdu Murray - A former Muslim talks about the doctrine of the Trinity (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 02 Oct 2017 00:00:37 +0000

In this episode of Off The Shelf, Rod talks to Abdu Murray, a well known apologist and the author of two books, including his latest, Grand Central Question: Answering the Critical Concerns of the Major Worldviews.

Abdu has spoken to diverse international audiences and has participated in debates and dialogues across the globe. He has appeared as a guest on numerous radio and television programs all over the world.

Abdu holds a BA in Psychology from the University of Michigan and earned his Juris Doctor from the University of Michigan Law School. As an attorney, Abdu was named several times in Best Lawyers in America and Michigan Super Lawyer. Abdu is the Scholar in Residence of Christian Thought and Apologetics at the Josh McDowell Institute of Oklahoma Wesleyan University.

In this episode, Rod and Abdu discuss:

Abdu’s journey from Islam to Christ;
The mission of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries; and
Is the doctrine of the Trinity inconsistent with the unity of God and the Shema of Deut 6:4 which states “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.”

External Links:

Abdu Murray’s video testimony
Abdu Murray’s website
Books by Abdu Murray on Amazon

Music – Doxology by Kelly Joe Phelps from Roll Away the Stone (1997) – available from iTunes

Episode 31 - Sylvia Perkins - Why I left the message (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 25 Sep 2017 00:00:19 +0000

This is part 3 of our interview with Sylvia Perkins. Sylvia attended Branham Tabernacle as a child. She was in a myriad of William Branham’s services and even watched TV with Joseph Branham, the youngest of the Branham children.

She was at the funeral of William Branham and attended Lee Vayle’s church for 18 years following the William Branham’s death. She was at the opening of the opening of the cornerstone of Branham Tabernacle after it was struck by a car and saw what it contained. She even had an interview with William Branham and he told her she was a prophetess.

Join Bryan and Rod as they discuss the many astounding things that Sylvia had the opportunity of seeing and why Sylvia ultimately had to leave the message. We know you will be as surprised as we were at the many revelations and insights into the life and ministry of William Branham.

External links:

Video – Sylvia Perkins – Did “Thus Saith The Lord” ever fail?
The Mystery of the Empty Cornerstone
Lee Vayle and his teachings
The Rise of a Woman in America
Did women elect the wrong person in an American election?

Music – Stand up Stand up for Jesus – from Hymned Again by Bart Millard – Available from Google Play Music

Episode 30 - Sylvia Perkins - My Years in the Message (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 18 Sep 2017 00:00:40 +0000

This is part 2 of our interview with Sylvia Perkins. Sylvia attended Branham Tabernacle as a child. She was in a myriad of William Branham’s services and even watched TV with Joseph Branham, the youngest of the Branham children.

Join Bryan and Rod as they discuss the many astounding things that Sylvia had the opportunity of seeing. We know you will be as surprised as we were at the many revelations and insights into the life and ministry of William Branham.

External links:

Video – Sylvia Perkins – Did “Thus Saith The Lord” ever fail?
The Mystery of the Empty Cornerstone
Lee Vayle and his teachings

Music – I Must Tell The Truth – from I Believe by Charles Johnson and the Revivers – Available from Amazon

Episode 29 - Sylvia Perkins - Growing up in Branham Tabernacle (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 11 Sep 2017 00:00:36 +0000

Sylvia Perkins attended Branham Tabernacle as a child. She was in a myriad of William Branham’s services and even watched TV with Joseph Branham, the youngest of the Branham children.

External links:

Video – Sylvia Perkins – Did “Thus Saith The Lord” ever fail?
The Mystery of the Empty Cornerstone
Lee Vayle and his teachings

Music – Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone) – from How Great Is Our God: The Essential Collection by Chris Tomlin – Available on iTunes

Episode 28 - Were some Christians required to believe Satanic doctrine to be saved?

Rod Bergen — Sun, 03 Sep 2017 20:00:18 +0000

Did you you know that William Branham taught that some Christians were required to believe Satanic doctrine in order to be saved? This podcast outlines William Branham’s teaching on the subject with direct quotes from his sermons.

This number 10 (and the last) in our summer series of podcasts that we have entitled “Summer Shorts”. They are only 5-10 minutes long… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about.

Relevant links to this podcast

Music – A Mighty Fortress Is Our God by Chris Rice (written by Martin Luther) – from Peace Like A River: The Hymns Project – available from Amazon

Episode 27 - William Branham's visit to the graves of Buddha, Confucius and Muhhamad

Rod Bergen — Mon, 28 Aug 2017 00:00:27 +0000

William Branham stated on several occasions that he had visited the graves of Muhammad, Buddha and Confucius. But did he? We looked at the issue to determine whether William Branham actually visited these famous graves.

I think you will be surprised at what we found… well, maybe not if you’ve been listening to our podcasts.

This podcast is number 9 in our summer series of podcasts that we are calling “Summer Shorts”. They are only 5-10 minutes long… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about.

Relevant links to this podcast

Video – The Travels of William Branham
Read about William Branham’s travels
Read about William Branham’s general credibility

Music – Truth by Jamestown Revival – from Utah – available from iTunes

Episode 26 - Did William Branham travel around the world seven times?

Rod Bergen — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 00:00:51 +0000

William Branham stated on numerous occasions that he had traveled around the world seven times. We had a question from a listener asking if we had ever checked whether this was the case. So we did some research to determine whether William Branham actually went around the world seven times.

I think you will be surprised at what we found… well, maybe not if you’ve been listening to our podcasts.

This podcast is number 8 in our summer series of podcasts that we are calling “Summer Shorts”. They are only 5-10 minutes long… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about.

Relevant links to this podcast

Video – The Travels of William Branham
Read about William Branham’s travels
Read about William Branham’s general credibility

Music – I’ve been everywhere by Hank Snow – from The Essential Hank Snow – available from iTunes

Episode 25 - The prophet and the eagle

Rod Bergen — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 00:00:01 +0000

William Branham stated many times that the Bible compared God’s prophets to eagles. However, he never provided one scriptural example of where this was the case. So we thought we would check out whether what he said was actually based in the Bible.

I think you will be surprised at what we found… well, maybe not if you’ve been listening to our podcasts.

This podcast is part 7 in our summer series of short podcasts that we are calling “Summer Shorts”. They will only be 5-10 minutes… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about. Some may be the two of them, while others may just be solo.

Relevant links to this podcast

Read about William Branham, prophets, and eagles
Wikipedia article on altitude records for birds
Video – William Branham and the Mother Eagle

Music – If I had the wings of an eagle by Ziggy Marley (feat. Elizabeth Mitchell) – from Family Time – available from iTunes

Episode 24 - The significance of a seven-lettered name

Rod Bergen — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 00:00:30 +0000

William Branham stated that there was significance in names name ending in H-A-M. It was also significant that Billy Graham’s name was six letters, the number of a man, but Branham was 7 letters, which was perfection. Really?

William Branham also stated that his ministry and Billy Graham’s were the only worldwide ministries of anyone with a name ending in H-A-M. But he obviously did not know about Frank Boreham.

This podcast is part 6 in our summer series of short podcasts that we are calling “Summer Shorts”. They will only be 5-10 minutes… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about. Some may be the two of them, while others may just be solo.

Relevant links to this podcast

The importance of a seven-lettered name
Frank Boreham home page

Music – I Was Wrong (Acoustic) by Arizona – available from iTunes

Episode 23 - To Message Followers: God commands you to answer the questions of skeptics!

Rod Bergen — Mon, 31 Jul 2017 00:00:56 +0000

In this podcast, Bryan & Rod provide scriptures which specifically require message believers to provide answers to the questions that researchers into the message have been publicly asking for the past 5 years.

This podcast is part 5 in our summer series of short podcasts that we are calling “Summer Shorts”. They will only be 5-10 minutes… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about. Some may be the two of them, while others may just be solo.

Relevant links to this podcast

Our first challenge to followers of William Branham
Our second challenge to followers of William Branham

Music – Questions by Gentleman & Ky-Mani Marley, from the album – Conversations – available from iTunes

Episode 22 - Did William Branham have any real prophecies??

Rod Bergen — Mon, 24 Jul 2017 00:00:25 +0000

We have been unable to find a single occurrence where we have a clear prophecy recorded on tape that was later clearly fulfilled.

This is a test for anyone that is a follower of the message of William Branham. Did William Branham make any REAL “before the fact” prophecies in any of his tapes?

THIS IS THE CRITICAL QUESTION – Can you provide us with an unambiguous prophecy made by William Branham that was recorded publicly before the fact (i.e. we can verify on a tape) and that was later fulfilled in a clear manner? Surely, somewhere between 1946 and 1965, there is at least one clear prophecy that was made and fulfilled.

We will publish any such prophecy and its fulfillment on our website. Surely somewhere on a tape between 1947 and 1965, there is a prophecy that he recorded before the event that was later clearly fulfilled. However, to date, no one has brought us such a prophecy and we have been unable to find a single one.

This podcast is part 4 in our summer series of short podcasts that we are calling “Summer Shorts”. They will only be 4-5 minutes… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about. Some may be the two of them, while others may just be solo.

Music – I’ve Searched for Gold by Delirious?, from the album – The Cutting Edge Years – 20th Anniversary Edition – available from iTunes

Episode 21 - Jesus + Branham = ?

Rod Bergen — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:00:30 +0000

What do you get when you add William Branham to Jesus? Is it the Gospel that Paul preached? Or is it something different?

William Branham stated that “the Word in the days of the apostles does not work in this day.” Is that what Paul preached?

This podcast is part 3 in our summer series of short podcasts that we are calling “Summer Shorts”. They will only be 4-5 minutes… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about. Some may be the two of them, while others may just be solo.

Relevant Links to this podcast

Did William Branham preach what Paul preached?

Music – Nobody Else Like You by Andrae Crouch, from the album – Mercy – available from iTunes

Episode 20 - Two Ding Dongs and a Microphone (Summer Shorts)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:00:28 +0000

One of our listeners informed us of a recent comment made by the pastor of a message church in Beaufort, South Carolina. This pastor labeled those who dared challenge William Branham as “ding dongs”.

But was it the case that no one dared challenge William Braham when he was alive? Find out what actually happened to those who challenged William Branham.

We also include a sneak preview of an upcoming interview with Sylvia Perkins in September.

This podcast is part of our summer series of short podcasts that we are calling “Summer Shorts”. They will only be 4-5 minutes… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about. Some may be the two of them, while others may just be solo.

Relevant Links to this podcast

Music – Ding Dong by The Ding Dongs, from the album – Johnny Otis Presents Eldo Records Vol. 2 Featuring Sugarcane Harris & Little Julian Herrera – available from iTunes

Episode 19 - William Branham in Summer Shorts

Rod Bergen — Mon, 03 Jul 2017 00:00:25 +0000

For July and August, Bryan and Rod are doing a series of short podcasts that they are calling “Summer Shorts”. They will only be 4-5 minutes… just enough to get you thinking about something that you might not have thought about before. Some may be the two of them, while others may just be solo.

William Branham wearing “women’s underneath clothes” in South Africa

William Branham stated that when a man wore shorts, he was wearing a “woman’s underneath clothes”, but don’t men were shorts for underwear as well? Could it be that William Branham didn’t wear any underwear?

In this podcast, we look at William Branham’s condemnation of men wearing shorts and his apparent hypocrisy in wearing shorts himself.

Relevant Links to this podcast

Detailed information on William Branham’s views on wearing shorts

Music – Summertime, Summertime by The Jamies, from the album – Radio Hits of the ’50s – available from iTunes

Episode 18 - Meet Emily Arndt, missionary to Uganda (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 26 Jun 2017 00:01:16 +0000

Emily Arndt grew up in the message in Wisconsin but never heard the good news of Jesus Christ until she was 21 years of age. Emily became a veterinary technician and is currently living and serving with the Christian Veterinary Mission in Kampala, Uganda, East Africa. She is Assistant Clinician Facilitator in the surgical department of Uganda’s only veterinary college.

She works under a missionary veterinarian from the UK and also assists the Africa Center for Apologetics Research, who work to train believers for the defense of the faith, and mobilize Christians for the neglected but essential task of cult evangelism.

Relevant Links to this podcast

Music – Under African Skies by Paul Simon, from the album – Graceland (25th Anniversary Deluxe Edition) – available from iTunes

Episode 17 - Meet Emily Arndt, missionary to Uganda (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 19 Jun 2017 00:01:59 +0000

Links to topics discussed with Emily

Music – Africa by Johnny Clegg & Juluka & Soweto African Choir, from the album – The Best of Johnny Clegg – Juluka & Savuka – available from iTunes

Episode 16 - Meet Emily Arndt, missionary to Uganda (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 12 Jun 2017 00:01:51 +0000

Relevant Links

Music – Leaning on the Everlasting Arms by Ladysmith Black Mambazo, from the album – Two Worlds One Heart – available from Amazon

Episode 15 - The 1963 Arizona Cloud with Pastor Jeff Jenkins (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 05 Jun 2017 04:26:57 +0000

Jeff Jenkins, pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship (BCF) in Lima, Ohio for almost 35 years, discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud with host, Rod Bergen in part 3 of their interview.

Some of the questions they discuss include:

Have those the criticize our cloud research actually looked at it?
What does numerology have to do the cloud? Is numerology rooted in paganism?
Did the cloud move towards Sunset Mountain?
Were some of William Branham’s visions fabricated?
What is Jesus Christ doing in the world today?
The Parable of the Prodigal Son – Are message believers akin to the elder brother?
“It’s not the power of your faith but the object of your faith that saves you.”
What is biblical modesty?
Was William Branham under a Nazarite vow?
Was William Branham’s teaching on alcohol biblical?

Articles referred to on the podcast (click on the links):

Video – What caused the Cloud?
The Cause of the Cloud
The Timing of Cloud Events
“The Road to Sunset” by Rebekah Branham Smith (Only Believe Magazine)
Why was the cloud not seen before sunset?
Wikipedia article on noctilucent clouds
Google search – Rainbows caused by moonlight

Music – Uncloudy Day by The Staple Singers, from the album – Top 50 Classics – The Very Best of the Staple Singers Early Years – available on iTunes

Episode 14 - The 1963 Arizona Cloud with Pastor Jeff Jenkins (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 29 May 2017 04:31:49 +0000

Jeff Jenkins, pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship (BCF) in Lima, Ohio for almost 35 years, discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud with host, Rod Bergen.

Some of the questions which they discuss include:

The Cause of the Cloud – Was it the aftermath of a constellation of angels visiting the earth or was there a natural explanation?
What are noctilucent clouds? – Why did no one see the cloud until sunset?
Only believe? – Does Bible tell us to simply have blind faith?

Articles referred to on the podcast (click on the links):

Video – What caused the Cloud?
The Cause of the Cloud
The Timing of Cloud Events
“The Road to Sunset” by Rebekah Branham Smith (Only Believe Magazine)
Reason & Faith
Plagiarism and the Message of William Branham

Music – The Unclouded Day by Randy Travis, from the album – Worship & Faith – available on iTunes

Episode 13 - The 1963 Arizona Cloud with Pastor Jeff Jenkins (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Sun, 21 May 2017 00:01:23 +0000

Jeff Jenkins, pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship (BCF) in Lima, Ohio for almost 35 years, discusses the 1963 Arizona Cloud with host, Rod Bergen.

Some of the questions which they discuss include:

The Prophecy of the Cloud – Did William Branham prophesy the cloud in advance of it appearing?
The Timing of the Cloud – Why did the cloud appear 8 days before William Branham went hunting?
The Location of the Cloud – Why did the cloud show up 200 miles away from where William Branham was hunting?
Gene Norman’s testimony of the cloud – What did William Branham;s friend, Gene Norman, hear and see?
Chad Lamb’s sermon on the cloud – Does the cloud have anything to do with Exodus 19:16?
The Cause of the Cloud – Was it the aftermath of a constellation of angels visiting the earth or was there a natural explanation?

Articles referred to on the podcast (click on the links):

Video – The Prophecy of the Cloud
Video – What caused the Cloud?
The Prophecy of the Cloud article
The Cloud’s Location
The Cause of the Cloud
The Timing of Cloud Events
“The Road to Sunset” by Rebekah Branham Smith (Only Believe Magazine)

Music – I Can See Clearly Now by Johnny Nash, from the album – The Best of Johnny Nash – available on iTunes

Episode 12 - An interview with Careyann Muller (part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 15 May 2017 00:01:27 +0000

In this episode, Careyann continues to discuss some of the strange things she experienced in the Returned Ministry sub-cult within the message, along with the following:

The strange circumstances that began her journey out of the message;
Her experience with finding searchingforvindication.com’s timeline;
The implications of Deut 18:20-22
Her research into whether the message was true;
The reaction of her husband;
Whether she really did believe the message while she was in it;
The location of William Branham’s picture with the pillar of fire;
Why do people stay in the message; and
What it means to be a true follower of Jesus.

Careyann’s website – Message Mysteries Unraveled

Song – Choose Life from Big Tent Revival – Greatest Hits by Big Tent Revival (1995) – see album

Episode 11 - An interview with Careyann M.

Rod Bergen — Mon, 08 May 2017 00:01:31 +0000

Careyann M. was raised in the message and has seen more than her share of the bizarre things that the message has to offer. In this episode, Careyann discusses her time in the message and some of the strange things she experienced. To be fair, not all people in the message experience the things that Careyann did but the strange sub-cults are definitely there to be found.

Some of the issues she discusses include:

The failure of message ministers to stand against abortion;
Growing up as a girl in the message;
The treatment of women in the message;
Examples of William Branham’s hypocrisy;
Steven Shelley and Ezekiel’s Wheel;
Donald Parnell and the Third Testament Millennium sub-cult;
The Returned Ministry sub-cult.

Careyann’s website – Message Mysteries Unraveled

Song – Confused by Dean Martin, from The Capital Recordings, Vol 5 (1954) – see album

Episode 10 - An interview with James Rozak (Part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 01 May 2017 00:01:29 +0000

Join Rod and Bryan in part 3 of their interview with James Rozak, the author of the Morning Mercy website.

James Rozak was the Associate Pastor of Edmonton Word Assembly for 10 years, serving alongside Eugene Braun. James believed and preached the message as best he knew.

But in February of 2013, the unthinkable happened and James made a decision with his wife to leave the message of William Branham.

In this last part of the interview, James discusses:

How MorningMercy.com started and how it got its name.
Fear and phobia in the message.
James answers a question that was sent to us by one of our listeners.
The creeds and dogmas of the message.
Legalism and anti-nomianism.
Why people have problems leaving the message.

The question that one of our listeners asked was this:

I noticed that our minister almost every week at least mentions once that women should wear a long skirt, shouldn’t have any makeup or cut their hair in any shape or form. And often he adds: “Well you can hate me for telling you these things, but then you must hate god’s prophet too, cause he told it first.”

It sounds as if he is feeling that there is something wrong with these regulations, so he tries to protect himself by saying: “Hey, it’s not my fault that you have to suffer because of these rules!”

Can you talk about similar experiences you [had]? I would appreciate it if you could do a whole podcast on this topic! What does the Bible tell us according to these things??

Referenced website – MorningMercy.com is a resource for former followers of William Branham and contains encouragement from the perspective of an ex-message follower.

Music – Mercy by Andraé Crouch from Mercy (1994) – View Album

Episode 9 - An interview with James Rozak (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 02:00:22 +0000

Rod and Bryan continue their discussion with James Rozak, the author of the Morning Mercy website, in part 2 of their interview

James Rozak was the Associate Pastor of Edmonton Word Assembly for 10 years, serving alongside Eugene Braun. James believed and preached the message as best he knew.

But in February of 2013, the unthinkable happened and James made a decision with his wife to leave the message of William Branham. Issues discussed on this podcast include:

Concerns with the emphasis by ministers on William Branham, rather than Jesus Christ;
Reaction of other ministers to James’ focus on helping people that were subject to abuse;
The problem with abuse in the message and how ministers deal with it;
Cognitive dissonance and the impact on Christians who are still in the message;
The testimony of Alfred Pohl, a man who questioned whether people were actually being healed in William Branham’s meetings.

Article referred to in the podcast – The Testimony of Alfred Pohl

Referenced website – MorningMercy.com is a resource for formers followers of William Branham and contains encouragement from the perspective of an ex-message follower.

Music – Great Is Thy Faithfulness by Jon Gibson, (lyrics by Thomas O. Chisholm and music by William Runyan – 1923) from Soulful Hymns (2002) – View Album

Episode 8 - An interview with James Rozak, the author of Morning Mercy

Rod Bergen — Mon, 17 Apr 2017 02:00:00 +0000

Join Rod and Bryan as they interview James Rozak, the author of the Morning Mercy website.

James Rozak was the Associate Pastor of Edmonton Word Assembly for 10 years, serving alongside Eugene Braun. James believed and preached the message as best he knew.

But in February of 2013, the unthinkable happened and James made a decision with his wife to leave the message of William Branham.

James was someone that loved the message, and lived it with a passion. He and his wife did not leave because they didn’t want to ‘live the life’. Instead, came to the realization that something was clearly very wrong.

James initially felt that the message was being mishandled by men; in fact, he felt he could be a voice that captured the truth and essence of what the message really was. But when the realization came that the problems were much more foundational, and the teaching itself was questionable – it became too much for him to ignore.

As a minister, he personally felt a responsibility to try to understand and resolve the questions. The problem was, there were no answers that adequately stood without turning a blind eye or performing mental gymnastics to excuse them. Consequently, when he felt he could no longer preach in good faith, he resolved to step down from my ministry. But it quickly became clear they could no longer continue attending the church, so with heavy hearts, they walked away.

As most people that leave the message, James experienced great hurt. The decision to leave the Message resulted in a complete annihilation of his reputation, a loss of everything familar – and left him, his wife and their children without friendships that he had expected were lifelong.

His desire to heal and help found expression through his website, Morning Mercy. While he still has many questions, he has no doubt that they made the right decision.

Referenced website – MorningMercy.com is a resource for formers followers of William Branham and contains encouragement from the perspective of an ex-message follower.

Music – Great Is Thy Faithfulness by 2nd Chapter of Acts, (lyrics by Thomas O. Chisholm and music by William Runyan-1923) from Hymn Collection (2003) – View Album

Episode 7 - An interview with the authors of Searching For Vindication (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 10 Apr 2017 02:00:16 +0000

Join Rod and Bryan as they interview Joe and Anna Barone, the authors of the Searching For Vindication website.

In this the second part of the interview, Joe and Anna Barone discuss:

Overcoming the rejection and fear of the criticism of the research they undertook
The reasons for their initial anonymity and their eventually making their authorship public
The reasons behind their leaving the message:
- Hope Branham’s obituary
- The Pentecostal Tabernacle (later renamed as the Branham Tabernacle
- Hope’s nurse
- Doctrinal issues
Other outcomes of their research
- Six Second Smith
- The 1937 Flood and the pulpit at Braham Tabernacle
- Unpublished research
  - William Branham’s status as a game warden
  - Future research
Current response to criticism of their research
What it means to be a true follower of Jesus

Referenced website – SearchingForVindication.com

Music – No Longer Slaves by Bethel Music, Jonathan David & Melissa Helser from We Will Not Be Shaken (Live) (2015) – View Album

Episode 6 - An interview with the authors of Searching For Vindication (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 03 Apr 2017 02:00:29 +0000

Join Rod and Bryan as they interview Joe and Anna Barone, the authors of the Searching For Vindication website.

In Part 1 of this 2 part interview, Joe and Anna Barone discuss:

Their reaction to:
- the article that BelieveTheSign published on the municipal bridge vision.
- Voice of God’s 2012 “Catch The Vision” publication relating to the lack of reliable historical evidence.
- Their desire to prove that the conclusions of BelieveTheSign were wrong.
Their motivation for publishing the Searching For Vindication website
The reliability of historical archives relating to the Jeffersonville area
The depth of research behind the Searching For Vindication website
An example of Christian love – Matthew 18:12-14 & Luke 15:3-7
- Leaving the ninety-nine to go after the one lost sheep
- The reaction to the Humble Pie article
- Christian responsibility for those who have gone astray
The Barone’s approach to researching the conclusions of Believe The Sign with respect to the municipal bridge vision
- How many people actually died in the construction of the municipal bridge?
Feedback and criticism of their research and their response to the criticism

Referenced website – SearchingForVindication.com

Music – The Ninety and Nine by Andrew Peterson from Carried Along (1995) – View More by This Artist

Episode 5 - An Interview with Pastor Jeff Jenkins (part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 27 Mar 2017 02:03:35 +0000

Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship (BCF) in Lima, Ohio for almost 34 years. Pastor Jeff was a committed and fervent follower of William Branham but left the message and his church several years ago. This is part 2 of Rod Bergen’s interview with Pastor Jeff as they discuss how he came to his monumental decision to leave the message and the church he had pastored for almost three and a half decades, as well as his current thoughts on William Branham and the message.

Music – I Have Decided to Follow Jesus by Bill & Gloria Gaither, from their album – Bill & Gloria Gaither and Their Homecoming Friends, Vol. 1 – available on iTunes

Episode 4 - An interview with Pastor Jeff Jenkins (part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 20 Mar 2017 02:00:40 +0000

Jeff Jenkins was the pastor of Believers Christian Fellowship (BCF) in Lima, Ohio for almost 34 years. Pastor Jeff was a committed and fervent follower of William Branham but left the message and his church several years ago. Rod Bergen interviews Pastor Jeff to discuss his background and how he came to his monumental decision to leave the message and the church he had pastored for almost three and a half decades.

Music – For the Sake of the Call by Avalon, from their album – Another Time, Another Place: Timeless Christian Classics – available on iTunes

Episode 3 - Getting to know your hosts (part 3)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 13 Mar 2017 02:00:11 +0000

Rod Bergen interviews co-host Bryan Lynch about his background, how he came into the message and what led him to leave the message after spending almost 20 years following William Branham.

Music – Off The Shelf by The Brothers Bright from A Song Treasury (2012) – View More by This Artist

Episode 2 - Getting to know your hosts (Part 2)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 06 Mar 2017 02:01:57 +0000

This is the second part of a 3 part series focused on introducing the co-hosts of the Off The Shelf podcast. In this episode, Bryan Lynch interviews Rod Bergen about how he came into the message; what led him to leave the message after spending almost 40 years following William Branham; and his current perspective on the message and those still following the message. Music – Off The Shelf by The Brothers Bright from A Song Treasury (2012) – View More by This Artist

Episode 1 - Getting to know your hosts (Part 1)

Rod Bergen — Mon, 27 Feb 2017 02:55:14 +0000

The first three episodes of the Off The Shelf podcast will be focused on introducing co-hosts Rod Bergen and Bryan Lynch. Hosts Bryan Lynch and Rod Bergen talk about:

Why are we doing a podcast?
Where did the name “Off The Shelf” come from?

Then, Bryan interviews Rod about how he came into the message and what led him to leave Cloverdale Bibleway and the message after spending almost 40 years following William Branham. Rod talks about the relationship of faith and doubt, the municipal bridge vision, conversations Rod had with Pearry Green and George Smith, Deuteronomy 18:20-22, fear in the message and his view of the message and those still in the message.

Music – Off The Shelf by The Brothers Bright from A Song Treasury (2012) – View More by This Artist

Referenced website – Power to Change

The Municipal Bridge Vision – click to access the related video and related article