Andy, drawing from his 12-step recovery background, describes spirituality as a relationship with a higher power understood personally, sharing that his connection takes shape through Christian symbolism rooted in his upbringing. He emphasizes that this framework is not exclusive, but a language through which he experiences alignment, meaning, and a sense that everything in existence is placed in right relationship. Central to his path is humility—learning to recognize value in all people and to move beyond ego-driven identity.

The conversation expands into spiritual awakening as both gradual and sudden, drawing on William James’ distinction between 'educational' awakenings and sudden insight, with participants noting that suffering, hindsight, and breakthrough moments all contribute to a growing awareness of interconnectedness.

Themes of non-separation emerge across traditions, including Zen and Advaita Vedanta, where suffering is understood as rooted in the illusion of a separate self, and healing arises through re-experiencing unity—both psychologically and physically in the body.

• Humility as a balance between recognizing higher forces and maintaining personal agency

• The idea that all relationships—including with the divine—are reciprocal rather than one-directional

• A Sufi perspective, influenced by Inayat Khan, describing the universe as moving toward love, harmony, and beauty

• The concept of a 'pull of the future' shaping evolution alongside past causes

• Parallels to scientific ideas of uncertainty and unfolding potential within the universe

Joel offers a complementary perspective on karma, rooted in mystical traditions, emphasizing that every thought, action, and intention generates corresponding effects that return 'measure for measure,' shaping future experience. He frames reality as an interplay between seen and unseen dimensions, where intentionality—especially loving-kindness—acts as a generative force.

The panel reflects on the interplay of karma, grace, randomness, and free will, suggesting that human life unfolds within a dynamic system of influence and choice, where individuals both shape and are shaped by experience.

Closing reflections highlight the importance of shared inquiry and spiritual community, with participants emphasizing that these conversations create space for meaningful exploration beyond solitary practice.

The discussion concludes with a Zen teaching offered by Joel, pointing to the enduring challenge of ethical living—avoiding harm and cultivating virtue—not as abstract ideals, but as practices that must be lived moment to moment.

In the continuation of the cross-collabaortion of Alchemical Dialogues, Unraveling Religion, and The Labyrinth, we are posting this Panel Discussion.

Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion co-hosts Joel Lesses and Henry Cretella convene a panel exploring spirituality, recovery, philosophy, and science through lived experience, centered on the theme of transformation as an embodied, ongoing process.

Ben, a therapist and former addiction counselor, reflects on his journey through trauma, psychosis, and recovery, including an ego death experience that reframed his life through the lens of rebirth. He describes moving from feeling unsafe in his body to cultivating grounding through breath and meditation.

Andrew, trained in physics, shares his experiences with bipolar disorder, atheism, and long-term substance use, ultimately finding recovery and a return to a sense of inner peace, identifying addiction as an attempt to fill a deeper spiritual void.

Rich Grego, a philosopher and Professor of religion and metaphysics, introduces his scholarly background while emphasizing his continued existential questioning, highlighting the gap between intellectual understanding and lived spiritual experience.

Henry Cretella, a psychiatrist influenced by Inayat Khan, describes a syncretic approach to spirituality, drawing from multiple traditions while seeking a unifying thread, and challenges the idea of 'pure' traditions by pointing to nature as inherently evolving and interconnected.

Joel builds on this by referencing Eihei Dogen’s idea of 'many languages, one tongue,' suggesting that different traditions express a shared source, and introduces the central inquiry 'What am I?' as a core spiritual question.

The discussion explores addiction as existential longing, reframing the restless search for meaning as a potential catalyst for transformation, and examines the relationship between humans and nature, questioning whether any true separation exists.

Joel emphasizes language as a uniquely human capacity that shapes reality, while Henry dissolves the distinction between humans and nature, asserting that all phenomena arise from the same natural processes.

Themes of unity and non-dual awareness emerge, with connection understood as internal rather than dependent on external conditions, and Ben reflecting that true connection can be found even in solitude.

Joel introduces the metaphor of the world as a garden, drawing on teachings associated with Menachem Mendel Schneerson, describing humans as caretakers responsible for cultivating and tending both inner and outer life.

• God (Tao) says, 'be what I made you to be!'
• God (Tao) is found in relationship.
• Does God want us to know Him (or ourselves) most intimately?
• Dependent Co-arising?
• 'Simultaneously, I and all beings attain the Way' (Awaken to Reality) ~Buddha
• 'Essentially, outside of me, nothing exists'
• Verse 18
• What does it mean to let go?
• What do we let go of?
• To be human is to be attached?
• Closes with Verse 81, and then Joel reads two poems by Ikkyu.

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

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Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom.

• Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace.

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Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

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Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.   

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Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

Bob, Brian, Rich, Henry and Joel share Verse 1 and questions arise:

• What is Reality?
• Is the Tao Reality?
• What is the Tao?
• What does the term Anti-foundational mean?
• Reversal Yin/ Yang in relation to Tao.
• Paradox and the Tao.
• Everyday consciousness is the pathway to the Tao.
• What is the relationship with Buddhism, Hinduism, Christiainity and Tao?
• What does silence offer in relation to the Tao?
• The Beginningless Beginning?
• Is the Tao directly knowable?
• Tibetan Buddihsm and the Tao.
• Verse 17 and Verse 38 are explored.
• Wu Wei. 
• How do we serve God?
• How do we serve Tao?
• Why did God create?

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

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Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom.

• Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace.

-------

Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

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Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.   

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Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

The conversation opens to how Joel and Pádraig met, and what informed Pádraig's life as a Poet and Theologian. Pádraig recalls the influences of Ireland and school and the foundation of poetry in that experience, and poetry as resistance, and the role of Peacemaker in the world.

Pádraig reads from his new book of poetry Kitchen Hymns' poem, 'The Long Table.'

The conversation opens to many faces of poetry and existence:

• Are we irrelevant to the Universe or is the human being the center point of existence?
• Do we understand what Love Is?
• Joel reads from the Mountains and Rivers Sutra of Dogen Zenji's Shobogenzo
• Coming together for the point of comprehension and not necessary agreement
• The Church views of LGBTQ+ Community
• Beyond formal belief and nurturing the heart
• Pádraig and mentoring the younger generation
• Pádraig's Kitchen Hymns and On Being's Poetry Unbound Anthology released in 2025: 44 Poems on Being with Each Another 
• Jewish Mysticism and Kabbalah
• Kabbalah is for Humankind
• Plato's Soul with Two Faces
• The importance of Good Questions is rooted in Judaism and is applicable to all spiritual traditions
• Midrash in Judaism 
• The body and the erotic in relation to spirituality and the deeper questions of existence
• Star of David deconstructed
• In Judaism a single person is known as half a human being
• The Garments of the Soul: Intention, Thought, Action, and Speech
• The Zohar and the thirst for deeper esoteric secrets
• Pádraig examines the relationship between poetry and prayer
• 'You' in poetry, most prayers include the word 'you'
• Pádraig reads from Kitchen Hymns, 'Do You Believe In God?'
• Close examination of a text will lead you into infinitity 
• Are Jewish soul's always in Jewish bodies?
• Joel reads Gary Synder's 'Why Log Truck Drivers Rise Earlier Than Students of Zen'
• Poetry transports us to other time and place, poetry as a time-machine
• Rooted spirituality is in the body 
• Joel reads Rainer Maria Rilke's 'Go To The Limits of Your Longing' 

Pádraig closes with Kitchen Hymns' poem, 'Untitled.'

Biography

Pádraig Ó Tuama (b. 1975, Ireland) is a poet with interests in language, violence, power, and religion. He is the host of On Being’s Poetry Unbound and has published volumes of poetry, essays, a memoir and theology.  2025 saw the publication of  Kitchen Hymns, a volume of original poems, and the anthology 44 Poems on Being with Each Other; A Poetry Unbound Collection. He is a visiting scholar at the centre for Cooperation and Conflict Resolution at Columbia university in New York City.

Unraveling Religion Host:

Born in Buffalo, NY, Joel David Lesses has lived in Nepal and Israel, along with hosting Unraveling Religion is a poet expressing the landscape of our existence, capturing the mystical elements of our human being. World religion, poetry, spirituality, meditation, encompassing the makeup of our mind and life. The crux of his own personal journey are the manifestation of questions and answers to his personal koan “What is the matter with me?” which reveals the individual and universal aspects of our inherent and potent creativity. Everything is flux. Everything is poetry. Other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, and transformative power of self inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices with a belief that the fundamental transformation of individuals and our collective comes through barreling inward, relentlessly, the question, "Who am I?" or "What am I" or "What is the matter with me?" the latter being his question which after years of examination, shattered a false sense of self, the work of integration of that experience being an ongoing work in progress.

Phil's history of experiences into spirituality, beginning with the death of his father and Phil's Aunt returning from a psychiatric hospitalization to Phil's home when Phil was a boy.

Also discussed, Phil's career development and choice and his search for meaningful work; from Orthodontistry to Photography and shooting covers of Romance Novels, Phil begin an ascent into work and exploring indigenous cultures.

His first project was working on a project in Tibet which he meet a young man identified as a Tulku (i.e., channeler of the Nachung Oracle, the Oversoul Protector of the Tibetan People Culture and Heritage). 

Phil interviewed the Tulku and learned how he came to his position in the Tibetan community.

The indicators of this position were seen in his Tibetan Community as positive signs of a gifted person and included mood swings, personality changes, hearing voices, and seeing visions.

This mental health crisis was the mark of a gifted person in Tibetan community. 

In other work, Phil worked with Amnesty International and the Samburu Tribe in where he met a young woman who at 14 started hearing voices and seeing vision.

Her grandmother recognized she had the gift to become a predictor, healer, and shaman in her community and took her under her wing and mentored her and these gifts into a skillset to benefit the community.

As Phil worked with many indigenous communities he began to interview the shaman, seers, healers, and predictors of these communities and found about 85% of the shaman had an an initiation into the path of the Shaman by a mental health crisis, defined by what the West would call psychosis. 

The community understood the mental health crisis as the beginning of a process of developing a person to become a leader, healer, and teacher in their community, and an elder would take them under their wing and mentor and guide them.

The mental emotional crisis is known by many shaman as 'The Little Death' or Ego Death.

Phil also in his career worked with neuroscientists to research the pathways of the brain.

Sudden awakening versus slow awakening was discussed across cultures (i.e., Mahayana school of Soto and Rinzai).

Phil also discusses his own experiences with psychedelics and micro-dosing and the importance of integrating those expericences into daily life require effort and work.

Phil and Joel discuss that we each have a specific kind of work and the human's journey is to search and find what that work might be. 

Liminal Space was defined as a threshold or a doorway and rebuilding after a breakthrough.

Phil reflects on his life now and his work on his memoirs documenting where his quest for meaningful work took him through his life.

• Medicine as a great human equalizer
• Toward human rights, once people step away from the border of the hospitals, they become categorized and labeled 'Palestinian' or 'Israeli'
• If you believe in Humanity, we must all stand for all
• Human Rights is deeply tested in Gaza, people must stand up for human rights
• Advocate not for peace but for dignity, justice, freedom, and human rights for all: peace will follow when these conditions are cultivated 

• As a poet, every voice is important in the world, every voice represents humanity. 
• Regarding Gaza, this is an overwhelming tragedy of sorrow
• The importance of actions based on one's convictions
• The power of the military industry complex to overide the voice of the majority and humanity's collective voice
• How can we be heard, how can we be listened to?
• Who is listening?

The idea, our obligation is to our humanity, looking within our selves we recognize our humanity

• 'What makes us come alive?'
• 'What is your 'note' in life?' (Rumi's 'be your note.')

The poet Major Ragain is quoted, 'contemplation alters the course of rivers.'

From the Bhagavad Gita:

• Freedom from action is not accomplished by abstaining from action, so how is it accomplished?
• Relinquishing the fruit of action 

Ghandi's, 'through service, I find myself.'

The Panel begins to examine the Taoist concept of non-action, Wu Wei.

How do we cultivate Wu Wei?

The Panel explores Univerisal Truths.

• Natural action arises, we have a deep intrinsic calling, how do we find and express it?
• What is our reason for being here?
• To receive the Divine Will is a part of choiceless action.

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

Brian Mistler is a Missouri-hillbilly curious about Reality. He has lived as a computer scientist, psychologist, running and growing  businesses, and helping entrepreneurs, hospitals, and healthcare providers. Mid-life Brian had a partially debilitating nerve injury and soon after met a true Vedanta teacher who spent 30+ years in India and trained under Swami Chimayananda, Sawmi Dayananda, and others. This refocused his study of the classic non-dual wisdom as presented in the Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Learn more at http://www.stillcenter.media. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. 

Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.   

Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

Biography 

Co-founder, Chairman, and CEO of SoldierStrong, Chris Meek has been recognized for his philanthropy with the President’s Call to Service Award, March of Dimes Franklin Delano Roosevelt Outstanding Corporate Citizen Award, Syracuse University’s Orange Circle Award, the ACT-IAC “Game Changer” Award, and was named a “Face of Philanthropy” by the Chronicle of Philanthropy. He discusses resiliency, empowerment, and leadership through adversity on his weekly podcast, “Next Steps Forward with Chris Meek,” via VoiceAmerica network’s Empowerment Channel. Next Steps Forward is his first book.

Joel David Lesses founded the Education Training Center as a means of counseling those marginalized by trauma, addiction and psychological distress, and its effects including incarceration, homelessness and institutionalization. He is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker. Joel has lived in Nepal and Israel and is also a poet expressing the landscape of the mystical elements of our human beings. He believes world religion, poetry, spirituality, and meditation encompass the most vital aspects of our mind and life. The crux of his own personal journey are the questions and answers to his own koan or inquiry: “what is the matter with me?” revealing the individual and universal aspects of our inherent and potent creativity. Everything is flux, everything is poetry. His other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science, and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, with the transformative power of self-inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices. Joel holds the belief that the fundamental transformation of individuals and our collective comes through barreling inward, relentlessly asking the questions, “Who am I?” or “What am I” or “What is the matter with me?” The latter being a question which after years of examination, shattered a false sense of self, the work of integration of that experience being an ongoing work in progress.

Topics of this conversation include travel (i.e., Ireland and India), philosophy, humanity's limitations and failures, and the desire to seek a 'hive-mind' for all people, constructively benefiting all members of our society and community.

Lisa and Sam explore how to dissect the makeup of human life and what drives this dialogue, this exploration.

Shifting to morals and ethics, are they relevant in our World, in our Life?

If so, 'How?!,' 'Why?!'

A framework of understanding brought the notion that 'We only know the answers to the questions we are asking,' so the question becomes, 'are we asking the right questions?'

• What is the nature of 'Consciousness?'
• What about 'Free Will?' 
• What is it to examine or look at our consciousness?

Sam feels that while drawn to the mystical, he also holds himself back from it, because the mystical can be taken too far.

All Scientist began as philosophers.

All Physical Science began out of Philosophy.

Is openness or an open mind a sign of brillance.

Is there always a causal relationship in human behavior, a reason for it?

Discussion turned to the book Sapiens, and the documentary Unknown: The Cave of Bones.

'There are some questions we will never know the answers to.'

The phone recording ended without Sam or Lisa knowing it and Agnostic Explorations of The Miracle of Consciousness and Hope winds down an evening of conversation special and sanctified.

Biography:

Sam Zito is a serious student of philosophy and life, although he describes himself as just beginning the journey into it. Sam lives in Buffalo, New York and has had a range of life experience. He currently studies at Arizona State University, Philosophy, plays chess, has two daughters, and ponders often life's mysteries and wonders.

Biography

Henry Cretella, M.D., graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

Henry studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years.

Avoiding and easing unnecessary suffering is a worthwhile goal, but so is the less often discussed opportunity for transformation that distress provides.  

Mystics teach that the heart and mind open through suffering.  

The good news is that we don’t have to look for upsets, they find us quite easily.

Join Henry Cretella and Lisa Carley as we discuss her journey through mental illness and how it led to her personal heart-mind opening and impacted her life for the better.  

It’s a journey of courage to explore and change, using all the tools that are available to understand and ease the pain while never closing the door that has been unlocked.  

Biography:

Henry Cretella's Alchemical Dialogues are live and unscripted conversations recorded on Zoom brought to you by the great folks of Amber Light International. We choose topics from our current social and cultural climate, with an emphasis on humanism and spirituality.

In a cross-collaboration with both Lisa Carley's new podcast The Labyrinth, and Joel Lesses' Unraveling Religion podcast, we have begun posting 'Selected, Best of The Labyrinth' and 'Selected, Best of Unraveling Religion' episodes on Alchemical Dialogues.

We continue to promote conversations that evolve our understanding of the vital topics of spirituality, the humanities, psychology, and The Arts and deepen community through this mutual support.

I met Shobitha four years ago at her organic farm and community in Andhra Pradesh. We immediately connected through a shared narrative of our complex maternal identities. Shobitha is a trained dancer, holds an MBA, and left a thriving career in the textile industry to cofound Protovillage, a model back-to-our-roots village that has become a magnet for educators and seekers from across the world. Most recently, Shobitha took another more personal leap, transforming her own journey as a seeker into a space of inquiry into the ways our identities often become the obstacles to awakening our purpose and interconnection with reality itself.

We are joined also by Ramesh Krishnan, author of The Urban Monk Diaries, who inspired Shobitha’s journey more than a decade ago. As Ramesh Babu will share with us, his own journey began in his twenties when he felt unsure of what to do, who he was, and which path to choose. In his writing, he explores the Eight Chambers of the Urban Shaolin which begins with discovering the Real nature of objects and moves toward a meeting with our mysterious I. Shaolin is a temple and we journey within the temple of Reality as we walk the labyrinth: with intention, curiosity, and above all, faith.

'Crazy…or wise? The traditional wisdom of indigenous cultures often contradicts modern views about a mental health crisis. Is it a ‘calling’ to grow or just a ‘broken brain’? The documentary Crazywise explores what can be learned from people around the world who have turned their psychological crisis into a positive transformative experience.'

Exploring alternatives to psychosis, from 2014 as Crazywise was nearing completion, Phil and Joel talk of spirituality, shamanism and healing. Phil and Joel talk about the gifted (i.e., those who exhibit Shamanic potentic through hearing voices and visions) and their relation to mental health distress, our Western cultures treatment, and the traditional or indiginous view of these markers as a sensitivity and gift.

Biography

Phil Borges, has been documenting indigenous cultures and striving to create an understanding of the challenges they face. Phil has spoken at multiple TED talks; including TED in 2007, TEDxRainier in 2012 and TEDxUMKC in 2013 and hosted television documentaries for Discovery and National Geographic. 

This conversation meanders among these three old, dear friends, and touches on nihilism, dissolution, and romanticism, Dharma decay and Dharma renewal, changes and transformations.

Is there room for Hope in the world today?

Optimism?

Does the state of the world allow a falling away so that things might improve, a sense something better might come.

What does Enlightenment look like?

What does Enlightenment feel like?

Rich, Lisa, and Joel explore aspects of the existential path requiring courage and bravery, and the conversation deconstructs aspects of the work required to build a strong existential or spiritual foundation. 

They continue to examine challenging and evolving social constructs, darkness versus light, mission and meaning and purpose, how do we find mission, meaning, and purpose?

Asking 'how' versus asking 'why?'

Fundamentally, what makes us feel we are far from where we should be, what makes us feel we are far from 'home.' 

Lisa, Rich, and Joel explore knowing the 'why' and knowing the 'big picture' versus being in the flow of life.

The talk continues in the examination of life asking 'What is being asked of me?

What do I need to learn about this situation?

What do I need to perceive in this situation?'

Also, asking questions of life, and responding to life's obstacles in a way that challenges our mental health and our existential paradigm, and the relationship to reconstructing ourselves, Phoenix like, after allowing ourselves to 'fall apart.'

Deeper into the conversation, the topic of the Existential Abyss and Kierkegaard and Nietzsche and Heidegger, and looking at 'being true to [oneself] in the deepest possible sense.'

The talk opens to the complexities and wonders of being human.

The existentially reassembling ourselves and its relationship to mental health and mental health distress.

Lisa, Rich, and Joel examine the secret to the existential delimma and how to resolve it.

The answer, 'service.'

Also, surfing and meditation and the story of Reb Zusha, a Hasidic Master.

A Jewish Kabbalistic look at death, judgment, and Heavenly Decrees, ultimately who judges us?

Does human life have spiritual veils and what do they hide?

Also discussed is American Zen Buddhism and the two most influential books in American Zen 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' and 'The Three Pillars of Zen.'

From Zen Mind, Beginner Mind, 'The basic teaching of Buddhism is the teaching of transcency or change' and 'That everything changes is the basic truth for each existence.'

What actually determines the quality of our life: is it what we receive from others, or what we give to others? 

What is our relationship to Death?

What are we forced to let go of in life and what returns to us in the future? 

These explorations build into a final poem Lisa wrote and reads.

Biographies:

Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science— including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history- philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator-polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

Born in Buffalo, NY, Joel David Lesses has lived in Nepal and Israel, along with hosting Unraveling Religion is a poet expressing the landscape of our existence, capturing the mystical elements of our human being. World religion, poetry, spirituality, meditation, encompassing the makeup of our mind and life. The crux of his own personal journey are the manifestation of questions and answers to his personal koan “What is the matter with me?” which reveals the individual and universal aspects of our inherent and potent creativity. Everything is flux. Everything is poetry. Other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, and transformative power of self inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices with a belief that the fundamental transformation of individuals and our collective comes through barreling inward, relentlessly, the question, "Who am I?" or "What am I" or "What is the matter with me?" the latter being his question which after years of examination, shattered a false sense of self, the work of integration of that experience being an ongoing work in progress.

Using psychological, poetic and spiritual lenses, Lisa and Joel laugh, talk, drink, and smoke their way through a terrain that is both deeply personal and exploratory, introspective and hilarious.

A version of this talk is also on the Unraveling Religion podcast.

Joel and Lisa talk about identity and examine it through the psychological lens, relationship as a model of teaching, repressed memories; poetry begins to emerge in this second segment, existential psychology and mental health distress are examined.

What do we attach or connect to in the world.

Is the world physical spiritual or both?

What does it mean to be a 'good father.'

Past lives and poetry intertwine.

What are we as human beings 'holding together' and what does it mean when we fall apart?  

More hilarity as the conversation loosens up.

The poetry continues, talk of Bardos (spiritual realms), what does it mean when we first meet someone and time slows or stops, spiritual signs are discussed.

The special evening ends with a favorite Rumi poem.  

Biography:

Born in Buffalo, NY, Joel David Lesses has lived in Nepal and Israel, along with hosting Unraveling Religion is a poet expressing the landscape of our existence, capturing the mystical elements of our human being. World religion, poetry, spirituality, meditation, encompassing the makeup of our mind and life. The crux of his own personal journey are the manifestation of questions and answers to his personal koan “What is the matter with me?” which reveals the individual and universal aspects of our inherent and potent creativity. Everything is flux. Everything is poetry. Other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, and transformative power of self inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices with a belief that the fundamental transformation of individuals and our collective comes through barreling inward, relentlessly, the question, "Who am I?" or "What am I" or "What is the matter with me?" the latter being his question which after years of examination, shattered a false sense of self, the work of integration of that experience being an ongoing work in progress.

Image is the cover of Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, Shunryu Suzuki, kanji: 'Inexhaustibility.'

2015; 'The Sound of Silence' (Instrumental); Immortalized; Reprise Records