Interviewees: William J. Hochul Jr., First Gentleman of the State of New York and co-chair of the New York State Erie Canal Bicentennial Commission, Brian U. Stratton, Director of the New York State Canal Corporation and co-chair of the New York State Erie Canal Bicentennial Commission, and Derrick Pratt, Director of Education and Public Programs at the Erie Canal Museum. 

For a deeper dive into the history of the Erie Canal, check out episode 3 of A New York Minute in History called “Erie Canal: Compressing Time and Distance.”

Marker of Focus: Old Erie Canal, Onondaga County.

Image Courtesy of the William G. Pomeroy Foundation

Transporting Grains on the Erie Canal, late 19th century, courtesy of the New York State Museum

Courtesy of the Erie Canalway National Heritage Corridor

The Seneca Chief, Image Courtesy of the Buffalo Maritime Center

Upcoming Bicentennial Events:

New York State Canal Corporation Bicentennial Website

Erie Canalway National Heritage Corridor Bicentennial Website

2025 World Canals Conference, Buffalo, NY September 21-25

Buffalo Maritime Center: The Bicentennial Voyage of the Seneca Chief

Albany Symphony Orchestra: 2025 American Music Festival Water Music NY: More Voices

Further Reading/Viewing:

Carol Sheriff, The Artificial River: The Erie Canal and the Paradox of Progress, 1997.

Brad Utter, Ashley Hopkins-Benton and Karen Quinn, Enterprising Waters: The History and Art of New York’s Erie Canal, 2020.

Laurence M. Hauptman, Conspiracy of Interests: Iroquois Dispossession and the Rise of New York State, 2001.

WMHT: Reflections on the Erie Canal

Educational Resources:

Consider the Source New York: Erie Canal

Erie Canalway National Heritage Corridor: Teacher Resources

Erie Canal Museum: Educational Resources for School and Home

Buffalo Maritime Center: Student Programs

Follow Along:

Lauren:

On this month's episode, we're focusing on the 200th anniversary of the completion and opening of the Erie Canal. Now there are several historic markers that relate to the incredibly important history of the Erie Canal all across New York state. As an example, there's a marker located in the hamlet of Memphis, which is outside of Syracuse in Onondaga County. Although you may not have heard of this Memphis, it does have a particular claim to fame. It's located on Bennett's corners road, and the text reads, old Erie Canal, formerly called Canton Memphis, was halfway stop on original canal route, 179

miles from Buffalo and 183 miles from Albany, William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2018.

Now, if you're Interested in an in depth history of the Erie Canal. You should go back and listen to our earlier podcast from several years ago in 2018 it actually predates me as co host, so you'll be able to hear our former co host, Don Wildman, and it's called the Erie Canal, compressing time and distance, and that'll give you a good foundation about why the canal was so integral to the 19th century development of New York State. But on this episode, we're going to focus on the 200th anniversary of the opening of the canal and all of the events and celebrations and exhibits that are planned throughout 2025 to celebrate this milestone. Now, being that the marker I just mentioned is just outside of Syracuse, we're going to start right in that area at the Erie Canal museum. We were able to speak with director of education and public programming, Derek Pratt, about their upcoming plans to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the Erie Canal.

Derrick Pratt:

I'm Derrick Pratt, director of education and public programming at the Erie Canal Museum in Syracuse, New York, and our mission at the museum is to tell the story of the canal, past, present and future. And as Director of Education, kind of my job to get that story in front of people. So the museum is housed in what we believe is our most important artifact, which is the 1850 Syracuse Weighlock building. That's W, E, I, g, h lock. It was essentially a toll booth on the canal. You would bring your canal boat into it, and it would get weighed and assessed a toll. There were seven of these across the state after they stopped collecting tolls in 1883 the weighlocks fell out of use in a lot of cases and were taken apart, with the exception of the Syracuse weighlock building, which itself was almost destroyed during the construction of interstate 81 in Syracuse.

But in 1962 thanks to protests by the Junior League of Syracuse and the canal Society of New York State, the building was saved. It was purchased by Onondaga County with the specific caveat that it be a canal Museum in perpetuity. So that's how we were born. We're a private museum while the county owns the building. We're independent of them. Yeah.

So we have a lot going on at the museum this year. We have our kind of flagship program, is our Sloan Lecture Series, which we've got some really great speakers in. And those events are also simulcast on Zoom, and you get recordings afterwards, so even people who aren't in Central New York can view them. We have some, some pretty interesting ones coming up. But we also have our beers bikes and barges cycling series, where we partner with different historic groups throughout the state to put on about hour long bike tours in different canal towns, learn the history of the town, and then we end at a local brewery, typically, and part of your ticket is you, you get to enjoy a beer at the end on us. So that's fun.

Another big thing, we have been supported by the Pomeroy foundation in our Bicentennial research project. So one of the things the Erie Canal Museum is really committed to is expanding the narrative of the Erie Canal. And there's just so much stuff that hasn't been covered in Canal history, we are encouraging researchers to do their own research, head into archives in their communities or state archives. People are also welcome to come to the Erie Canal museums, archives, which are pretty extensive, and research a topic that's under discussed in the canal world. And we're collecting all of those papers by August 31 is the due date, and then the hope is to publish kind of a compilation of all of these new bits of research and hopefully also use them to help various people who've submitted them apply for Pomeroy markers throughout the state as well. And further expand this history, we are working to expand the history of the canal, and some of the biggest kind of examples of that that we've implemented at the museum are a series of walking tours. Pathways of resistance, walking tour looking at abolition along the canal through downtown Syracuse and waterway of change, looking at the women's rights movement. Both of those tours are being funded by on the canals, which there are free events happening throughout the state in all sorts of especially recreation. We also have tours look that look at the architecture of the canal in Syracuse and one in Baldwinsville, looking at its unique canal history as well. So that's something I would suggest people check out. And they have like bike tours and kayaking tours throughout the state as well.

Devin:

Now Lauren, as historians, it seems like we are always working to commemorate some momentous event, some anniversary or something related to history of the locality, the municipality, in some cases, the state. This is one of the big ones here. 2025 is a big year. The Erie Canal is beyond important in the history of the state of New York and the nation, really, this commemoration is really something that we've been excited about at the State Museum and the office of cultural education. Really, going back to 2017 when we commemorated the beginning of the construction of the Erie Canal, which began in 1817.  We had a big, exciting exhibit called Enterprising Waters. We also released a book that was a gallery guide to that exhibit. So this is something that has been part of the work of the State Museum and the State Library and state archives, really starting in before even 2017 but we've been looking forward to 2025 as kind of the completion of the Erie Canal, as we said, 1825 but also a way to celebrate the entire system.

One of the things that people sometimes forget is that when we're talking about the canal system, we're talking about more than just the Erie Canal. We're talking about four canals that comprise the canal system in New York State, of course, the Erie Canal being the largest, but also the Champlain canal, Oswego canal and Cayuga Seneca canal. So when we're looking at the Erie Canal, we all kind of know the history, or we should. And as Lauren noted, please go back and check out our earlier episode from 2018 where we dive into that history of the construction of the Erie Canal and what it meant, but also some of the parts of the history, including indigenous displacement of their lands that were used to construct the Erie Canal and the complexity of the entire story. We're really excited by the variety of programming that's going on really across the canal system. Of course, it's being led by our own New York State Canal Corporation, which is part of the Power Authority in New York State and runs the entire canal system, including maintenance and upkeep of the 524

miles that exist, the 57 locks, the 16 lift bridges. So they are tasked with maintenance and upkeep, keeping the canal going, keeping this historic treasure operable in New York State. But they have partners in this commemoration. There is also the Erie Canal Way National Heritage corridor, which is a federal creation of Congress that really the breadth of the Erie Canal is a historic heritage area, and this organization does a lot of work around the history and heritage of the Erie Canal, working with communities on their history that surround the Erie Canal, and they are doing a lot of work commemorating this bicentennial in 2025 to learn more about what's going on around the state. Related to this commemoration, we spoke with New York State Canal Corporation director, Brian Stratton.

Brian Stratton:

Well, good afternoon, Devin. I'm Brian Stratton. I am the director of the New York State Canal Corporation. The Canal Corporation was formed in the early 90s out of legislation that was created

by Governor Mario Cuomo. Brought the canal out of the working world out of the Department of Transportation and established it as a recreational based mission. And from that, the Canal Corporation was formed, and we were placed under the New York State Thruway Authority initially, and then through the years. In the end of 2016 and 2017 we're now under the New York Power Authority. So our mission is to really maintain this waterway, 524 four miles long, four different canals, 57 locks, the trails and all sorts of infrastructure along there. And it's an old system, even though we're talking about 200 years of the canal when it when it began in 1825, the final phase, or the or the most recent phase, is really the New York State Barge Canal, which opened up in 1918 so this is what we do, and although it's largely a recreational mission. It's still, it's we still haul freight to from time to time, not like we used to, not what it was made for, or at the capacity. But it's certainly there or the car goes that need to go.

Well, we've been doing this for a long, long time. We really started in 2020, 2017 and all of the, all of the 200 logos that you see go back to that year because we began celebrating and really, really, really recognizing when it was the 200th anniversary of the construction starting, which began in 1817, but over the last year, year and a half, we've really begun to take up, take up speed. And Governor Hochul announced the formation of the Erie Canal Bicentennial commission in July of 2024, and we got underway very, very quickly. I have the honor of serving as the co-chair of that organization, along with the first gentleman, Bill Hochul and three of the governor's cabinet members, which would include Secretary of State, Mosley, Empire State Development, President Knight Hope Knight and New York State Parks and Rec recreation and historic preservation Commissioner Randy Simons along with me, and we are meeting monthly and really planning a whole robust series. But we have a lot of a lot of partners along the way.

 So there are many canal stakeholders throughout the system that are also joining us, and so it's not incumbent upon us as a singular organization, but we're sort of the band leader and making sure that we keep our fingers on the pulse of all of the things that are that, that are going on. And it's almost, almost, almost dizzying to keep track of them all, because there's so many great things, and everybody's extremely excited. And that was one of the things that makes it very, very fun. There's never a never a boring day. There's always lots to do. And when you add to that mix infrastructure problems and rain, which is now preventing the canal from opening as we had hoped, parts of it are open, but we want the whole thing open, and I'm sure Mother Nature will abide and we'll get it open eventually.

Lauren:

One of the most exciting projects that canal Corp has been working on is the recreation of the canal packet boat the Seneca chief, which was the boat that DeWitt Clinton traveled on along the Erie Canal back in its opening in 1825.

Brian Stratton:

Well, this is one of my favorite projects, so I'm glad that you've, you know, gotten to this quickly. Yeah, the Seneca chief is a full-scale replica of Governor DeWitt Clinton's packet line boat as we know it to to have been in 1825, full scale. It was built by the Buffalo Maritime Center, probably over the last three to four years. And it is a community boat building, boat building project. There have been more hands on this boat than probably any other, any other project that that they've done, and I'm proud to say that I have even planed a few planks. Thank goodness they've able to cover over my errors with paint and caulking, but, but it's a beautiful boat, and it's been under construction. Was under construction probably from 2020 through 2024, when it was rolled, rolled out of the barn last year.

It's the exact length and width of the packet line boat that that the Buffalo Maritime Center knows Governor DeWitt Clinton sailed on and he left the commercial slip on October 26 1825 he arrived in New York maybe eight days later, and the actual wedding of the waters took place on November 4,

1825 but we marked his departure out of the buffalo harbor as the anniversary, and it was a grand affair, and certainly the buffalo maritime center knows all of those facts.

This was really the brainchild of Dr John Montague, who is the president emeritus of the Buffalo Maritime Center. And I remember I was at a Erie Canal way National Heritage corridor board meeting in Buffalo, probably in 2018 when he first came to so the Commission said, you know, we have the plans. We can make this boat. We just need the money, of course. And I just thought it was, it was the most fascinating thing, of course, you're always thinking about, you know, okay, it's 2018 we need it by 2025. Let's get the money and let's build it. And fortunately enough, they, they secured a private donor with a very generous donation, but also a lot of public donors too. And I think that through the Canal Corporation, through the Regional Economic Development Councils, we have three or four grants in there totaling maybe $600,000 that went in over several years. And those are matching funds that the that the maritime center matches dollar for dollar in kind or in cash. I'm not exactly sure of what the final figure was in terms of cost, what it cost to build, but it is a beautiful boat. It has been out on the water since it rolled out of the shed, and a very public, exciting ceremony that you know, photos everywhere it has sailed along the canal.

It actually floats. It is very happy that that worked out, but it's, but it, but it's a wooden boat. And any wooden boat takes on a little a little bit of water, does Governor Clinton's did? Yeah. So it has been touring, and they are getting ready to launch a very exciting tour to pay tribute to Governor Clinton's 1825, journey. And the Seneca chief is scheduled to depart from Buffalo as part of the world canals Conference, which is going to be taking place there September 21 through 25th and on September 24 they're going to launch the Seneca chief and a very public ceremony from canal site not far from where Governor first shoved off, and it will embark on a month long journey with 28 stops along the canal. And the communities are extremely excited and getting ready, and there's going to be a lot of a lot of fanfare, a lot of ceremony, education.

People be able to find out about what the Seneca chief did, and what it was like to live and sleep on a boat. These were supposed to be luxury items, but everybody slept in the same space. And you had women's quarters, men's quarters, you had you had mules or donkeys. You had horses too. I don't think they brought those on board, not this particular boat, but there was also cargo too. So we're very excited about it, and we have lots of conversations, almost on a daily basis with the maritime center, working out how we can bring stakeholders in and make it a very exciting experience.

Devin:

one of the interesting things about the modern canal system is how it's changed over time. Certainly, it was built as a transportation corridor for goods, mostly, and at some extent, people traveled along the canal. But nowadays it's mostly recreation. Of course, there's boaters and those who are traveling along the canal system and using the locks with their boats and all of that, that exciting kind of traditional way of using the canal. But the canal is also a multi modal recreation corridor in many ways. There's bike trails, there's the Empire State trail that goes the length of the Erie Canal, and beyond a walking trail. There's towns and villages along the canal system that have recreation areas that are nearby to the canal, whether it's parks or trails or other ways of enjoying the outdoors. The New York canal system has really become this 524 mile recreation experience for people of all ages.

Brian Strattion:

One of the things that we've done recently through one of the original, statutorily created bodies within the Canal Corporation is called the canal rec recreation way Commission, which really guides the recreational mission of the canal. And these are appointees by the by the governor, by the Senate, by the the the assembly and agency representatives. And they convene at least four times a year and really guide everything that we're doing to make sure that the canal is a world class rec recreation way. And when the Canal Corporation was formed in 1992 the canal recreation way plan was first put into place, saying, how do we want the canal to look? How can we maximize this fantastic infrastructure that was built to haul freight on a very large scale? How can we make it a more human scaled, individual, individually sized recreational corridor Blueprint was put into place with the first canal recreation way plan, which was finalized in 1995 and that really is, you know, that's, that's a long time ago. So third, 30 years old. We have through the last year, worked very, very hard through public input, through public information sessions, outreach and the input of more than 500 persons across the system.

Stakeholders in every region of the canal have updated the canal recreation way plan looking forward, and it's called the canal 2050 plan, and it really looks forward to what we want the canal to be, and what our what our guiding light ought to be, to make sure that the canal grows and evolves and continues to be this great economic system. And I don't know that I've that I have mentioned it, but the economic impact of the canal statewide is more than $400 million annually. So that's a tremendous economic engine. It's great. And sometimes we don't see all of that here in the local Albany capital region, but the further west you go, where the canal is more central to the main street of our communities, whether it's in Syracuse, Rochester Utica, you really see how important it is and how essential it is.

Lauren:

Two of the most prominent travelers on the canal system in New York are Governor Hochul and the first gentleman, William Hochul Jr, who have traveled almost every mile along the canals in New York State, except for the Oswego Canal, which they plan to travel sometime soon, we were able to speak to the first gentleman who is also the co-chair of the Erie Canal Bicentennial commission about what he loves most about the canal.

William J. Hochul, Jr:

Well, first of all, thank you for having me, Devin, and to all the listeners out there you are going to be so impressed with the summer we have scheduled to commemorate the very important bicentennial of the Erie Canal. I'm the co chairman, along with the Canal Corporation director, Brian Stratton, and we have an entire schedule and calendar of events that we've been building out along with the communities that are touched and impacted by the Erie Canal, such an experience for people that are boating enthusiasts to experience the canal the way the canal was designed and then grew over the last 200 years. Really included different towns about every 10 miles or so, which is about the distance that a mule team could go. And in each of these towns, people that visit by the canal or even by car, for that matter, or bike, they will find, in some ways a step back in history, 200 year old history you will see in many of these communities, architecture from that period. You will see little shops, little restaurants, gazebos, museums of different type.

But then you will also experience personalities that each community has developed over the 200 years. And I think what's important for all the listeners to realize, if they haven't been on the canal lately, is boating is just one of any number of ways to experience a canal. There is a bike path, for example, that goes almost the entire length from Lockport, even before Lockport, but from Lockport to Albany and then up and down the Hudson River and into Lake Champlain. There's different ways that bikers can either be literally next to the canal or within a very short pedal from the canal, there's paddle boaters that experience the canal, kayakers. There's people that hike and again, you can also drive to these different communities. But as a boater, if you don't happen to have your own boat, there's opportunities for people to rent packet boats. These are boats that are in many ways, replicas of the canal boats that made the journey during the heyday of the canal, but they're now fully motorized, fully equipped, and on some of our journeys, the Governor and I have met people that are from Europe, from different parts of the country, because they recognize that what we have here in New York is really unique to any place else in North America, And in some ways it's unique to any other canal system in the world. So that's what we have right here in New York, and that's what the listeners should hould really be mindful of as we head into the 200th anniversary of it.

Well, there's nothing like going into one of the small towns that maybe you heard about or you saw on a map once upon a time, and just experiencing it, either by boat and parking your boat or by a car or your bicycle if you want to do a longer trip by bike, these communities are just so wonderful, and as I reflect back on some of our happiest moments, It was the surprises that we would find in different communities. There are museums, for example, that the general public, and certainly I put myself in this category, had never heard about. There's a really a world class train museum, for example in one of the communities, and my wife and I just happened to stop in and see this wonderful exhibit of cranes then and all the architecture that went into building this complicated system. And I will name drop in that case, that's in Medina, New York. And then again, as you're going along the canal system, you might find yourself visiting Seneca Falls for another example, and so many people rightly credit it as the birthplace of the women's movement, women's right to vote. Of course, conventions were held there, but women's suffrage began there. But beyond that, there's the bridge from It's A Wonderful Life, and it was really the inspiration many think, for that particular movie that all of us watch over Christmas, and all of these communities are just so wonderful and and when you are traveling at canal pace again, whether it's a hike, whether it's a bike or whether it's a boat, you just Find yourself slowing down from some of the rush or the  activity that's at the two big Terminus is of the canal, obviously Buffalo, big city, New York City, one of the world's largest and one of the world's most important cities, but along the way, it's just such a refreshing and in its own way, energizing experience. I can't be a larger fan for everything that canal and the communities have to offer you.

Lauren:

So Devin, both of us grew up in upstate New York, you in the western part of the state, and myself in the eastern part. But I remember as a child visiting sites along the canals. I was a Girl Scout growing up, and remember that they, every year had an event where you could walk along the canal. And I remember visiting Schoharie crossing, which is a state park site where they have the remnants of one of the old aqueducts along the canal, which I always remember thinking was so cool, both for the engineering feat, but you know also what it's left behind on the landscape. And they also have a recreated canal store where you can kind of learn about why it was so important to have the canal go through your community, and what that could mean for economic development. And of course, you know, being the Saratoga County Historian, we have two very important canals. Not only is the Erie Canal important to the southern part of our county, but the Champlain canal runs north, south, along our eastern border, and certainly influenced the way that the county developed in the 19th century, and most notably, perhaps in the recent past. We have canal Fest in Waterford, which is a yearly celebration of the canal. It happens on opening weekend of the canal. Well, usually, except for in years like this, when we have extremely high water. But even though they couldn't open this part of the canal, the celebration still went on. And I think it shows the importance that the canal still has 200 years later, both in remembering the history of the canal, but also in the ways that we've shown adaptive reuse of the tow paths as walking paths and bike paths, in encouraging people to use the canal with kayaks, and in ways that we can preserve the canal and have historic tours along the canal, so that 50 years from now, when it's the 250th anniversary of the Erie Canal, we still have something to celebrate, and we still have places where we can go and learn about the history and continue to use it as a recreational place as well.

Devin:

Absolutely true. And as you mentioned, I grew up in Western New York, or at least farther west than Albany. It's debatable whether where I grew up is actually western New York or more central western New York or the Finger Lakes. But anyway, I grew up in the town of Wayland, which isn't directly on the Erie Canal, but it's not far from it, and it doesn't take much, and it doesn't take long to find evidence of the canal system, either historically or still there today with the Erie Canal, but to also see the direct economic and social impact of the canal in that part of the state, in Western New York. So many of these towns and cities are in existence because of the canal. As it as it opened and transportation began to take place, it transformed the landscape, physically and environmentally and economically and socially by bringing more and more people to Central and Western New York and really opening it up to the rest of the world, in many cases. So yeah, the canal was never far, physically from where I was growing up, and it also wasn't far as far as the historical importance of it in these communities throughout New York State. You mentioned canal Fest in Waterford, which is a great annual event. But New York is also extremely fortunate to be hosting the World canals conference in Buffalo New York, September 21 through the 25th and this is a big deal. The World canal conference is exactly what it says it is. It's an international conference that brings together canal historians and enthusiasts, those who are interested in the mechanics of the canal, together with organizations and government entities like Canal Corporation that operate canals today. And these people and these organizations are from all around the world in countries that continue to have canals and operate them. And this conference moves around the world. It is in a different place every year, and for the significance and for the birthday celebration of the Erie Canal, it's in New York State in 2025.

Brian Stratton:

You asked about events? Yes, let's talk about partners. Is the Erie Canal National Heritage corridor, yep, and working with them, we have a interactive calendar of Bicentennial events. It grows every single day. And if you were to log on to Erie Canal way dot, O, R, G, forward slash events, the event calendar will come up. It's searchable by region, by activity, by month, by everything you like to do. There's more than 100 I'm sure there's well over one 100 that was as of two weeks ago. It's interactive, so every community can make sure they can add their event to the growing list. And I know that there are many communities that are still planning events. They may not be on there. So please check out the Erie Canal way calendar of Bicentennial events. You'll find something that's going on near you all summer long and into the fall. And one of the things we're also trying to do through the Bicentennial commission is to get our agency partners to get in on this wonderful milestone that our state is

marking in 2025 and the New York State Lottery is coming forward in a big way, and I can't take the wrapper off of that yet, but they're very excited to have a lottery game that's coming this summer that's going to help commemorate 200 years of the Erie Canal. That's great, and it's a lot of fun, and it's a lot of a lot of money too. So we're going to look forward to hearing more about that. I've probably said too much about that. And the Albany Symphony Orchestra is also going to be playing with us. They helped to start the bicentennial in 2017 they are back. They are traveling along four or five community concerts, five destinations along the canal. It's going to be wonderful. And we're going to celebrate that. These are canal side concerts. That's wonderful. We also have Stewart shops, who is well known here,

has come up with a bicentennial ice cream flavor perfect, and that's actually on sale now at your local Stewart shops. The name of that flavor is minted in 1825, a little idea of what the flavor is. And that is a we had an internal competition through the Canal Corporation and the Power Authority employees what the flavor name should be, and it was chosen last month. And we've been eating a lot of ice cream. That's, hey, I wish I had that. I wish we did something like that. So let's, let's get everybody out to Stewart’s shops. So, you know, even if you can't get to one of these wonderful events, or by some way, you can't make it to the world canals conference in September, you can go to your Stewart shop and have an ice cream cone and say you're doing your part to mark the 200th anniversary of the opening of Erie Canal.

Interviewees: Dr. La Tasha A. Brown, Director of Community Relations at RPI

Unveiling Ceremony Speakers: Bill Pomeroy, founder of the William G. Pomeroy Foundation and Dr. Martin A. Schmidt, President of RPI

Marker of Focus: Garnet Baltimore, Rensselaer County

Devin Lander and Lauren Roberts by the Garnet Baltimore marker. Photo courtesy of Lauren Roberts.

Garnet Douglass Baltimore. Image courtesy of the Hart Cluett Museum

William G. Pomeroy speaking at the Garnet Douglass marker dedication, April 15, 2025. Photo courtesy of Lauren Roberts.

William G. Pomeroy speaking at the Garnet Douglass marker dedication, April 15, 2025. Photo courtesy of Lauren Roberts.

Further Reading:

Kenneth Aaron, “Troy Street Paved with Family Pride,” Albany Times Union, February 11, 2021.

RPI Alumni Hall of Fame.

“Garnet Douglass Baltimore, 1859-1946,” The Cultural Landscape Foundation.

“Garnet Douglass Baltimore,” Black Past.

Suzanne Spellen, “Garnet Douglass Baltimore: Troy’s Landscape Master,” New York Almanac.

“The History of Oakwood Cemetery,” Oakwood Cemetery.

Teacher Resources:

Hart Cluett Museum, Educator Resources

Follow Along:

Devin & Lauren

Welcome to a New York Minute in History. I'm Devin lander, the New York State historian, and I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County.

Lauren Roberts:

On this month's episode, we're taking you to a brand new historic marker located at one oh 5/8 Street in the city of Troy, which is part of Rensselaer County. The sign is located at the top of an elaborate granite staircase known as the approach, which connects the city of Troy to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, better known as RPI. And the text reads, Garnett, Baltimore first black RPI graduate class of 1881 lifelong Troy resident, civil engineer who designed Prospect Park and parts of Oakwood Cemetery, William G Pomeroy foundation. 2025.

Now many of our listeners who are not from the Troy area may have heard of RPI, but they probably haven't heard the name Garnet Baltimore. So let's start off with talking a little bit about who he was and how he came to be the first black graduate at RPI.

Devin Lander:

Well, let's start with his name, Garnett, Douglas, Baltimore. So he was from a very prominent African American, free black family in Troy. His father, Peter was a barber and also very active in community life in the city. He was also a member of the Underground Railroad and was an abolitionist, of course, and very involved with several of the most prominent abolitionists in the state and nation at the time, including Henry Highland Garnet, who was a legendary preacher and an abolitionist based in Troy at the time, and also was associated with Frederick Douglass. So that's where we get the name Garnet Douglas Baltimore. He's named after Henry Highland Garnet and Frederick Douglass. And even going farther back, his grandfather, Samuel Baltimore, was born enslaved and sought his freedom as a soldier in the American Revolution. He was promised to be free if he had fought on the side of the Americans during the revolution. Unfortunately, after the war, he was denied his freedom by his master or owner at the time, and so he escaped and settled in Troy, which is how the Baltimore family came to the area. Now Garnet, Baltimore was born on Eighth Street, so not far from where the marker is, and right in front of the RPI campus, actually at 160 8th street in 1859 he was born, and he again, was born into a prominent African American family that really valued education and valued the ability of education to lift up a person and allow them to pursue a career and a life on their own.

Lauren:

Garnett studied at the William rich school and then went to Troy Academy, where he and his brother were the first black students accepted there. He had great grades, and because of the family's connections with prominent people around Troy, he was able to gain acceptance into RPI in 1870 seven's freshman class, and that's how he became the first black graduate in the year 1881 which then led to an amazing career as a civil engineer, and he remained in Troy for the rest of his life.

Devin:

One of the things about Garnett that we've learned is that beyond being, you know, the first African American RPI engineering graduate in 1881 was the fact that his career was long and varied, and evidence suggests that he received his first job the day after getting his engineering degree from RPI. And so that started a career in which he worked on a variety of projects around the area and around the state, including parts of the Erie Canal, the Oswego Canal bridges, other types of civil engineering projects like that. Now we were fortunate to go to the unveiling ceremony for the garnet Douglas Baltimore marker. And this entire project, the work, the research that was done to apply for the marker and to receive a marker from the Pomeroy foundation. Was done by Dr Latasha Brown at RPI, and we had the opportunity to speak with her after the event.

Dr. La Tasha Brown

My name is Dr La Tasha Brown, and it's my pleasure to be here. I have a PhD from the University of Warwick in Coventry, England, in comparative cultural studies from there, I Well, prior to that, I should say I have a master's degree in African New World Studies from Florida International University down in Miami, Florida, which is now African and African Diaspora Studies. That changed a couple of years ago. My undergrad is from bachelor's degree in history, minor in English, lit, from St Lawrence University in Canton, New York. So I've had quite a bit of experience up and down the East Coast in terms of educational development, and then I did a bit of study abroad in the Caribbean at the University of the West Indies. So throughout my career, I've had the privilege of learning and working across the US, the Caribbean and the UK. So I bring a particular perspective that is global to the work that I do right now at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute as the Director of Community Relations within the Office of Community Relations and Communications.

Devin:

Alright, well, let's, let's talk about, a little bit about Garnett Douglas, Baltimore. When did you first become aware of Garnett Douglas, Baltimore and how did that whole interest that you have start?

La Tasha:

Yes, I started at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute back in February of 2022 I was the Director of the Office of Multicultural Programs at the time, and everyone was talking about the first African American to graduate from RPI, Garnett, Douglas, Baltimore. And I'm like, Oh, okay. Neat. You know most institutions has the first African American. What year did he graduate? Most people did not know oh. And I was just like, oh. And I was just like, Okay, I need to find this out, just because it's the first and knowing that RPI has been around for quite some time, since 1824 which we just celebrated the Bicentennial, so I really wanted to sort of position him within sort of that historical moment. And so 1824 you know, RPI is founded, and then he graduates in 1881 and I was just like, This is amazing, regardless of the fact of, you know, putting the title or the adjective of him being a trailblazer, I'm like, that is just really interesting when you're thinking about the development of America and, you know, upstate New York, and him working in a space that is not heavily filled with African Americans, right? And so that was like the journey he was well connected. And I should say that his father was well connected. His father was part of the Underground Railroad. And so having the opportunity to be around sort of intellectuals, at the time, black and white, being around affluent people. Because, you know, Troy, New York, my understanding, was filled with billionaires, right? And so he had the opportunity to excel, but also be very much in the midst of change and creating opportunities for a lot of people, economically as well as socially. What was neat about him, and just in terms of his namesake, is that he was given the name after Reverend Highland Garnet Douglas. And so if you think about these two individuals that carry such significance within American history, you have to expect for him to be brilliant in whatever he attaches himself to. He went on to the William Ridge school for colored children in Troy. And then from there, he went to the Troy Academy, where he was there for five years with his younger brother. And then he was thinking about Harvard University. And then he decided to focus on STEM as we call it now, and apply to RPI. And so that started his journey, but thinking about physically where he was in Troy, he was right on 8th street, and so RPI was right above so every day, he was engaging with that academic space very intentionally, but also just being a passer by the education institution as it was being built out. The suspicion is that there was other African Americans, and I say other for small number, right? This is class size for 1881 was only 17. So there might have been one or two other individuals of African descent. We would know that they would be male as opposed to female, but we don't have that definitive answer as of yet. But you know, you know more work is to be done on his life.

I wanted the marker just to sort of signify, not so much that he went to RPI, but to really mark the year, because everybody knew his name, you know, well known on campus at RPI, well known in the community, but to have that historical date that people can pass by and see constantly that was really important to have it at the approach that really came later. But with regards to the foundation and the process, I was concerned about what region I was located in, right? So when is the deadline? Because I was already going into the archives at RPI and looking at the various maps, and then going down to the, looking at their materials, looking at the materials online, but I didn't have a sense of what was his story, and so there was a lot of conversations that I was having with people that were intimately connected to his journey, that had documented in various ways, whether it's for political speeches, for the, you know, the various presidents, or just kind of folklore in the community.

We had a Juneteenth event back in June of 2022 and it was a localized version that was to celebrate Garnet Baltimore, and it was at that moment I was just like, this would be a really good idea to have a historical marker for him. And so I went onto the website, I missed the deadline, and then I was just like, Okay, let me get this started. What is needed in terms of the primary and secondary sources. So I started to do a deeper dive in the archives at RPI, and having conversations with Jennifer and Tammy, who were the archivists at the time. And then, you know, it was everything from his academic records to what was he involved with in school in terms of extracurricular activities, because that shaped his world view. Who else was in the class, who was on the Board of Trustees? Because all of this is being shaped by the fact that he was the first How did he get into this space, right? You know, what was the political connection to the community and the capital region at large? And then knowing that his father was an affluent person in terms of, not just, you know, financial means, but also political connection that played a role. But then I also wanted to know, did he have any writings for himself, right? And he didn't. There was a lot of newspaper clippings that I was able to come across up and down the country of him visiting Ian. There's quite a bit in black newspapers announcing his visit, for obvious reasons, right? And then there was just a series of committees and councils that he was a part of in terms of being part of the community and volunteering, not just with RPI and the alumni network, just but beyond that. And then I realized I needed to have his birth certificate, his death certificate, and then going down to Troy and getting those records, and then looking at the records of where exactly was his house, because that was the big challenge. Was it on the side of RPI? Did RPI, you know, do they now own that property, or is it owned by the city? Because originally it wasn't going to be a marker just for him. Am, but it was a marker at the location of where his house was located. And then I had a lot of conversations with Christy at the Pomeroy Foundation, and she's just like, if there's not a stone or anything left, you can't put the marker there. And so it was a series of brainstorming like, so what is the real sort of draw between the campus, remembering him and the community, and then you have Prospect Park, Oakwood Cemetery, and then he's a true Trojan. And so it just seems fitting to have it at the approach, and then the history of the approach and the Rubin foundation, it just all came together

about a year later, because, again, I missed the deadline, and then you have another job, though,

I had another job, right? But to me, it was the process of utilizing the skills that I acquired, you know, as a result of getting my PhD, and then also not just looking at the race component, but like the cultural impact. How was he instrumental in creating community? And he was very much involved in community building and community change and providing access through his work as a as an engineer, and so that that was the process. And then I think it was November, the beginning and though the end of November, beginning of December, I got noticed that, you know, I was awarded the Pomeroy historical market grant, terribly excited.

And then we had to figure out what was the proper wording, and that is where the challenge comes in, because it's a small space, and it's not a poem, right? And so you want to be as concrete in terms of delivery of the words, but also as impactful, because you know that people are going to see this for a really a long time, and this is possibly their first touch point into doing a deeper dive, not just into gardening deep Baltimore, but Oakwood cemetery, RPI, Troy. And then it opens up a bigger space to go down a rabbit hole of just knowledge and time and space, and so it's lovely to know that the marker is up at the approach. And that is not just an RPI experience, but it's a community experience.

Devin:

But I'm curious about so some of the logistics stuff with all of this, I know can be complex.

With placing a marker in certain spots, was there a difficulty in placing it where it is now on the approach?

La Tasha Brown

It wasn't smooth sailing. It was a process, for sure. It's figuring out the foot traffic, right? Yeah. Logistics is, you know, who's gonna see this, you know, are we just looking at it from the standpoint of vehicles passing by? Are they gonna actually slow down? Not too long ago, RPI put in a crosswalk, and so that was the perfect locations you would, you know, travel up or down the approach, but more so traveling up the approach, and where the mark is located is right at the crosswalk, so you have to press the button and wait, and as you're waiting, you're now reading.

And so that allows for not just the individuals that's standing at the cross walk to cross the street, but it also allows for the vehicle, the person's in the vehicle to then look at the marker themselves, because it's big enough for you to take a peek. And if you're really curious, you can pull over and park safely and get out and read the marker.

Lauren:

One of the attendees at the unveiling ceremony for the Garnett Baltimore marker was Bill Pomeroy, who is the founder of the William G Pomeroy Foundation, and also a graduate of RPI from the class of 1966.  He was invited to give remarks about the Garnett Baltimore marker located at his alma mater.

Bill Pomeroy:

Thank you, folks, and I'm excited to be here today to celebrate the life and the legacy of Garnet Douglas Baltimore, an accomplished engineer, landscape designer and RPI first graduate. We're marking that legacy literally with this new historic marker funded by the foundation I started 20 some years ago. That foundation, like many, many meaningful things came from a deeply personal place. My time at RPI from 1962 to 1966 taught me a lot about perseverance, problem solving and purpose, but it was a unexpected leukemia diagnosis, AML, that gave me clarity on how I wanted to give back. With the odds stacked against me, I set out to create something that could help others. Long after I was gone, I focused first on expanding the bone marrow registry, especially for underrepresented communities. The goal give more patients like me a shot at a life saving donor match, and I'm proud to say that our work has helped facilitate over 300 bone marrow transplants.

Thank you very much. Later, my interest in history took hold, and our Foundation began helping communities across the country uncover and celebrate their local histories. As a boy, my dad took me on his sales calls and frequently stopped at historic sites to learn more about them, and I guess that's where the bug got planted in my head. And I continue now with markers.

So when I learned that someone had proposed a marker for Garnett, Baltimore and on the approach, no less, you know the one I remember as an ankle breaker from 1962, I was thrilled. It's a perfect spot. And thank you, Dr Brown for thoroughly documenting the facts for the marker and the back story.  Baltimore lived his whole life right here in Troy, likely right down here, close to where the marker is today. The approach physically and symbolically connects the city of Troy to RPI. What better place to celebrate someone who embodied both and Garnet Baltimore is not just celebrated here, his influence, you know, really goes further than here. He helped design Oakwood Cemetery. His grandfather, Samuel Baltimore, a revolutionary war Patriot is buried in Troy's Mount Ida cemetery. Garnet likely became aware from family lore of patriots buried in both places, and we're currently developing a new marker with the sons of the American Revolution to honor 22 known patriots interned at Oakwood.

We're also working on a marker for Mud Lock on the Oswego canal, where Baltimore oversaw a challenging expansion project in the mud. He'll be recognized by name when that marker is installed later on this year.

All of this makes me especially proud to now see a marker here that ties him firmly and forever to RPI and the city of Troy. This marker will spark curiosities and passers by, pride in the community and the inspiration of future generations who, like Baltimore, use their talents to make a lasting impact as someone who shares his own whose own story was shaped by this place. It's an honor to share in this moment of pride for your community, and I want to thank you for the opportunity.

Devin:

You now, much like one of his family's friends, Frederick Douglass, who, for his second marriage, married a white woman, Garnet Douglas Baltimore also married a white woman named Mary Lane, who he met doing a job on Long Island. Her family originated from Long Island, but they moved back to Troy to help further his career and keep his career going. And she was a strong advocate, not only for equality for African American people, but also for women. She was known as a suffragist, and when we spoke to Dr Brown, she talked about how she was able to track down Mary Lane's family and actually have representation from that family at the unveiling event.

La Tasha Brown:

I reached out back in I want to say it was 2016 if you look on the archival website for RPI, there was a thread of discussions that were going on, and there was a woman, she said that she was a descendant of Garnet Baltimore, like a great, great grandniece. And so I did a deep dive and Googling and putting in her name in various websites and forums, and then even sending a follow up to that thread.

I presume she's still alive. She's about 66 and I've called three different four different emails were available. I presume that they are still members of the family that are alive, but I don't have exact evidence to prove that, obviously, with the Mary Lane family, they were here yesterday, and that is the Charles Marder, who is the nephew, the great, great, great grand nephew of Mary lane. And I found him through having conversations with several people, and then coming across his mother's announcement of her death, yes. And so I read that, and then they had a listing of him, along with his children and his, you know, extended family members. And then I did a deeper dive on a Sunday afternoon. I would never, you know, forget that I'm sending out emails, looking at LinkedIn profiles websites and reading additional articles. So I got in contact with several of individuals via email, and then I was hoping that somebody was going to reply back, but I didn't know how it was going to be received, right, right? Right? And so few emails bounced back, saying that their mailboxes were full. And I was just like, all and then then one came, I want to say, maybe two weeks later.

And so he replied back. And just like, this is really interesting. I'm like, indeed is interesting. And then he was telling me that he went to Bennington, Bennington College, okay? And Vermont, so he used to pass through the area right to go back down to Long Island, okay? And so he was familiar, um, within reason, yeah, of RPI. Well, he knew RPI, but the area. And then he paused a bit, and then he reached out to the local librarian, archivist, and they did a little bit of research, and then they came back and just like, let's talk a little bit more. And so I met Charles maybe three weeks ago, two and a half weeks ago, via WebEx, and we had our discussion, and sort of finalizing the details of this event, and talking about RPI and Mary Lane and what information is available. And then I reached out further to the librarian down on Long Island, and again, there is no primary information from them, right? Everything else is just secondary. And so I was taking these, these puzzle pieces, and putting them together, and they weren't aware that she left. So they were being introduced to her and to Garnet Douglas Baltimore yesterday. But clearly they did a little bit of research prior to our event, my event yesterday, but this was their introduction to that side of their family.

Charles Marder:

Thank you, Dr Brown, I really appreciate it. If it weren't for you, we wouldn't be here. You literally dug us up, or rather, figuratively dug us up. I will be careful when I say here, talk about cemeteries, but thank you.

That's I'm here. You know why I'm here, but I don't know, or you know how I'm here, but why I'm so excited to be here is because I am a landscape design, horticultural person that been doing for 50 years with my wife and later on, my son, Silas, who's right over here. It took him a little while,

but he's come a long way. And I've also worked on Prospect Park in Brooklyn Central Park in New York City, museum decommissioning Philip Johnson's Museum of Modern Art about 10 years ago, when they renovated the place, took them out to the Botanical Garden. I've decommissioned Linden circle and the botanical garden. I have built some things. I'm not just a decommissioner, but believe me, we moved giant trees. We moved one today to Connecticut with a police escort. It was a valuable tree,

but so anyway, I have a certain sympathy or empathy, when I found out about my aunt's great my great, great great aunt's husband and so proud that he was part of the family.

Lauren:

Two of the major projects that Garnett worked on in Troy was the laying out of Prospect Park and also laying out parts of Oakwood Cemetery, which is a beautiful cemetery that Troy is well known for as part of the unveiling ceremony, attendees were treated to a tour of Oakwood Cemetery, which included mentions of several prominent people that were buried there, but also a tour through the areas that Garnet laid out, and also a stop at his grave and that of the grave of his wife, where there was a wreath laying ceremony and a local pastor gave some moving remarks about the legacy of Garnett Baltimore. In addition, we stopped back at the chapel, and on display were maps from the early 1900s that Garnet Baltimore had actually laid out and signed. His original signature was on the maps, so it was a real treat to be able to see his actual presence in the cemetery on these maps as part of their archives.

Devin:

We've talked on this episode about how Garnet Douglas Baltimore was a trailblazer, first African American civil engineer, graduate of RPI, first graduate from other schools in the area, and also a very active and prominent Civil Engineer for his whole career, working on projects around the state and around the area. But he really was a Trojan. He was a proud resident of Troy, New York. He was very active, along with his wife, Mary Lane, in local community events and community works beyond his career, as I noted, Garnett was born on Eighth Street and Troy, and in fact, he died in the exact same house he was born in. He died in 1946 he was 87 years old, and he was active as an engineer right up until the end of his life. So the location of the marker could not be better. It's located on Eighth Street, as we said, which has also been renamed Garnett Douglas, Baltimore Street in Troy. And it's on the approach, which is this arched concrete walkway and stairs that connects RPI campus to the city of Troy, crosses Eighth Street and goes down the hill into the city itself. And no better place could have been picked to honor the legacy of Garnett Douglas Baltimore, who was himself, a connection between the Institute and the city RPI, President Martin Schmidt reflected on this connection at the unveiling ceremony.

Martin Schmidt:

It's a real pleasure to be here. We're gathering, of course, to unveil a significant tribute, a New York state historical marker dedicated to the pioneering spirit and lasting impact of Garnet Douglas Baltimore, and it's made possible by the William G Pomeroy Foundation, and I'm deeply grateful that they're present with us today. Wonderful to see fellow alumnus, Bill Pomeroy, and just delightful. It's also special that this marker will be placed at the approach, which is a site that's deeply embedded in the history of both Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, but also the city of Troy. It's our gateway between the campus and the town.

And to that note, before I continue, I want to extend my deepest gratitude to Mayor Carmela Mantello for joining us today, we're delighted with the partnership that we have with the city on so many fronts and her continued dedication to preserving and celebrating the rich history of Troy is really inspiring. So thank you. I also want to take a moment to recognize and thank the members of the extended family of Gardner, Baltimore's wife, Mary Lane, who are here with us today. Your presence is a meaningful reminder of the lasting connections between history, family and community.

Additionally, just thanks again for to the Foundation for their incredible work in recognizing and commemorating historic figures who have shaped our community. Their mission ensures that we never forget the contributions of individuals like Garnett, Baltimore who helped lay the foundation, both literally and figuratively, of the places we call home, Garnet Douglas, Baltimore was not just a trailblazer. He was a visionary. As the first black graduate of RPI in 1881 I hadn't realized it was 100 years before I got to graduate from RPI. He forged a path in civil engineering that would leave a lasting mark on this city and beyond. His work, particularly his contributions to the design and preservation of Oakwood Cemetery remains an enduring testament to his expertise and deep connections to Troy, the city where he was born and spent his life. Baltimore's legacy as a civil engineer, landscape designer and lifelong Troy resident is a reminder of the importance of recognizing those whose work continues to shape our communities for generations. Here at RPI, we take great pride in our long and storied history of innovation and leadership in engineering science and technology, but our mission extends beyond technical achievements. We seek to make an impact in the communities we serve. Garnet, Baltimore embodied this principle, bringing his technical expertise with a profound sense of civic responsibility and the approach. The approach is a historic landmark that connects our campus with the city, and so in placing the plaque at the top of the approach, we're recognizing the bridge Baltimore created between engineering excellence and community development. This unveiling is not just about marking history. It is about learning from it. It is an opportunity for individuals of all ages to explore and appreciate the contributions of those who came before us. I hope this historic marker serves as an enduring symbol of Baltimore's remarkable achievements and inspire future generations of engineers, leaders and innovators to follow in his footsteps.

Devin:

Now Garnett was such a prominent resident of Troy that when he passed away in 1946 the Troy record, which is the local newspaper, ran a front page obituary with a photograph, and they said, quote, There was a time when he was in the thick of Municipal Affairs. He was architectural engineer at Oakwood Cemetery. He laid out Prospect Park. He was probably the greatest surveyor in the city's history. He was as much a part of Troy as the monument.

La Tasha Brown:

With Garnet D Baltimore, there is so much to still uncover about his life and providing a holistic view of who he was, I think at the moment, is very fragmented. I mean, we're getting better at looking at or positioning these puzzle pieces together, but there's just so much that can be discovered and sort of put out there for public consumption. And I think when you think about curriculum, local curriculum, and I know that you're, you know, part of that space that becomes really important when we're thinking about how young people, particularly K through 12, but specifically K through eight, can feel a connection to their lives and learning environment. And this is one example that they can say he was a trailblazer. He wasn't a trailblazer in terms of being at the forefront, and, you know, of various movements or economic development in terms of benchmarking at different periods in time, but he was at the forefront of creating change and creating community. And we always need community. So I think this would be really important to put into the curriculum on a regular basis. That sort of feeds into opening up the space of thinking about STEM and STEAM for younger individuals, particularly those of African descent. But all students.

Interviewees: Barbara Allen, author and Sixth-Great Granddaughter of Sojourner Truth and Taylor Bruck, Ulster County Clerk and the City of Kingston Historian

Marker of Focus: Sojourner Truth, Ulster County

Office of the Ulster County Clerk

Library of Congress

Library of Congress

Further Reading:

Barbara Allen, Remembering Great Grandma Sojourner Truth, and Journey with Great Grandma Sojourner Truth

New York State Education Department, “Sojourner Truth’s Historic Supreme Court Documents From the New York State Archives on Display in Kingston”

New York State Archives: People vs. Solomon Gedney

Sojourner Truth, Narrative of Sojourner Truth, 1850.

Nell Irvin Painter, Sojourner Truth: A Life, A Symbol, 1996.

Teacher Resources:

National Park Service: Ain’t I a Woman Lesson Plan

PBS Learning Media: Sojourner Truth: Abolitionist and Women’s Rights Activist

Consider the Source NY: Sojourner Truth's Fight for African American and Women's Rights in 19th Century New York

Follow Along:

Devin & Lauren

Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian, and I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County.

Lauren:

In honor of Women's History Month, we are taking a look at a marker located at 285 Wall Street in the City of Kingston, which is in Ulster County. It's just outside the Ulster County Courthouse, and the text reads, Sojourner Truth at this courthouse in 1828 the orator and anti-slavery activist successfully sued to free her son Peter from enslavement. William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2023.

Before we take a deep dive on this particular marker, I want to point out that it's not the only historic marker erected by the William G Pomeroy foundation in recognition of the life and accomplishments of Sojourner Truth. There's actually four in total. One of them is just south of Kingston in Ulster Park, which marks one of the locations where Sojourner Truth lived when she was enslaved by tavern owner Martinus Shriver. There's another one down in Cold Spring Harbor, which is out on Long Island, where she's noted for visiting for three weeks in 1843 and taking part in a temperance meeting there. The final one is located in Florence, Massachusetts, and that marker is part of the national votes for women trail, and it marks where she lived from 1844 to 1857.

It's just incredible to think that this woman who lived so long ago in the constraints of the society at the time, has Four Pomeroy markers dedicated to her accomplishments back then, and that's just William G. Pomeroy markers. There are numerous other monuments and statues and parks named after her, so it's a pretty incredible legacy that she has left behind.

Now, getting back to the marker of focus that we're talking about outside the Ulster County Courthouse in Kingston, this court case in which Sojourner Truth brought the complaint against her sons and slavers, and where she was able to win this case, the first time that an African American was able to win a court case against a white man. It's an incredible story, but I think knowing her background and her early life makes it even more incredible.

Devin:

So let's start by talking about her early life when she wasn't yet Sojourner Truth. So Sojourner Truth was born enslaved in Ulster County. We don't know the exact date. I've seen dates suggesting 1797 but we don't know 100% exactly when she was born. But she was born into enslavement. She was born into a Dutch enslavers family, essentially, and spoke Dutch as her first language, and again, was enslaved in a situation in which, although the enslavers didn't have huge numbers of slaves, they did a variety of types of work. She would have worked in the house. She would have also worked on the property outside hard labor type of work, and she was sold several times in her youth, she was actually sold as a small child to a person named John Neely for $100 along with a few sheep. And by the time she was 13 years old, she had been sold two more times and ended up enslaved under a person named John Dumont. It's interesting to think of having a young woman who had been sold so many times in her short life. Sometimes we think about that in the as happening in the south, but it also happened here in New York and as late as the 1800s and you know, there was a variety, as you mentioned Evan in the work that she had to do. And we talked a little bit about this in the Frederick Douglass episode, that there was a difference between enslaved people who were on a farm, type plantation or a state, and then moving to the city, where they had maybe some more freedom than they were used to on the state. And Isabella, which was her given name at birth, experienced this too. She mentions in her autobiography the difference between, you know, having some more freedoms once she gets to a place of where she is learning some skills in a tavern setting when she's enslaved by Martinus Shriver, but also, you know, being able to learn English, which she hadn't been able to do previously.

So she experiences a lot of different situations at a young age, even in in the state of New York.

While Isabella was enslaved by Dumont, she made a deal with him, because of the laws of gradual emancipation in New York State, all slaves would be freed in 1827, however, the deal that she made with Dumont was that if she worked hard enough, she could be released a year early in 1826 so she worked very hard, she kept up her end of the bargain, and when it came time for her to go to him and to get her freedom, he basically reneged on the deal and said, No, you can't, you have to stay until 1827, and she decided that because she had held up her end of the bargain she worked hard, that she was going to leave anyway.

She did make a point to leave in the daylight, so it wasn't as though she was running away in the middle of the night. So she woke up in the morning, in the daylight, and she walked away, and she was able to find help with the Van Wagonens, not too far away from where the Dumonts lived. And she went there and was able to stay with them. Dumont did come after her, but she refused to go back with him. And also, we should mention that she had a baby, Sophia, with her at the time, who she also took with her, although she had no choice but to leave her other children behind with the Dumonts the van Wagonens, who she had found shelter with, offered to pay Dumont cash for the rest of the year that she would have been enslaved to him, and he accepted that, and from then she was free.

Unfortunately, though, her children that she had to leave behind were not free, including Peter, who was born in and around 1818, and was about eight years old when she walked to freedom. John Dumont sold Peter to a man named Eleazer Gedney of Newberg for $20 and Eleazer Gedney, in turn, sold Peter into enslavement in Alabama, so the deep south plantation slavery, and this was the origins of this court case, and because Peter was born after 1799 he was legally no longer an enslaved person in New York State, and as a result, his sale into slavery and into the south could be challenged in court With the help of the Van Wagonens, Sojourner Truth, again at the time, known as Isabella Baumfree, brought forth a court case against Eleazer Gedney, and this case we've known about for, you know, 200 years, essentially at this point. But there was very little archival evidence, very little transcription of anything related to the case. And that was the case right up until 2022 when some of my colleagues in the New York State Archives actually discovered new court records in a major collection that they had acquired from the New York State Supreme Court. Early cases, about 5000 cubic feet of early court records.

And it is when they were going through and processing these materials that they came across this evidence, which is now been digitized and is available on the State Archives website. You can see clearly the court case and how it was brought forward. You can see the response from Eleazer Gedney. You can see how the judge ruled in the reason that it was ruled the way it was. So all of this was kind of swirling around, and this major discovery that the State Archives found in 2022 kind of at the same time Taylor Brooke, who is the city of Kingston historian, was thinking about how to acquire a Pomeroy marker to commemorate this court case, which, up to that time, did not have its own marker. We spoke with Taylor Brook about the process of acquiring the Pomeroy marker.

Taylor Bruck

My name is Taylor Bruck. I'm the City of Kingston historian and the Ulster County Clerk. I started my career at the county as the Ulster County archivist in 2016 did that for six years, and then was the deputy county clerk in charge of records management. Manage all the county's records. Here in Ulster County, our records go back to 1658, we have, like some of the oldest Dutch records here in Ulster County, since Kingston or Warwick was one of the first three original Dutch colonies. So I just really love the history of the area. Fell in love with the history of Kingston very young. My mom used to work at the Senate House, and I've been historian now for about five years here in Ulster County.

This is where Sojourner Truth was, was born and raised. And there's, there's a number of different monuments and things about her around the county, but there was nothing ever at the courthouse where her historic court case took place. You know, being the first black woman to win a court case against a white man, we felt that that was a perfect location to have a Pomeroy marker. And it actually came about three years ago when we had the affneys conference here in Kingston, the Association of public historians for New York State. And I was giving a tour of the stockade district in Uptown Kingston, talking about Sojourner Truth in her case in front of the courthouse, and there was a representative from Pomeroy there on the tour. And afterwards, they said, you know, this is a perfect spot for a Pomeroy sign.

And so we started the process, and thankfully, a few months prior to that, is when the New York State Archives found the original court case documents in the state archives that had been really missing since the case happened. So we had all this new primary source documentation, and it was exactly what Pomeroy needed to really prove that what we were saying was true. And we were fortunate enough to be awarded the grant and got the marker, and then we had to wait almost a year to install it, because there was some serious renovations going on at our historic courthouse. So just this past few months ago now, we finally installed it, and it's been fantastic. We got a lot of good feedback on it already.

Devin:

You mentioned that there were documents discovered at the State Archives here in Albany. What can you say about those documents?

Taylor Bruck:

Well, they answered a lot of questions we had, and also made a lot of different questions come up. So before those documents were found again, all we had was this recognizance note that said that Solomon Gedney had to appear in court, and we never knew what happened in court. We thought it may have been settled at, like the conference level, but there was always questions about what happened with the case, and we had no idea, until, thankfully, Jim Fauci stumbled upon them, and it that's how we know about the commissioners to perform certain duties of the Supreme Court judge and how it was actually settled with Mr. Gedney, bringing Peter back and really saying that he didn't feel he did anything wrong. We never knew what his justification was or his argument that this was all really unknown. We had Sojourners narrative. Of course, she did talk about it briefly, but never went into any detail about what, Gedney said his side of the story was, and how the court case came to an end. So it really opened, it wide open, and then set us down another path of months of research about what actually happened. Because even when you read the documents, you're like, Wait, so there wasn't a jury, it never actually went to trial. Like, how did this conclude?

And thankfully, I have to give a big shout out to our commissioner of jurors and local history buff Paul O'Neill He has a really good sense of the history of New York State courts and the New York State court system. And without his expertise in that, and really diving into the court aspect of it, I would still be very confused about how this all took place, because it's, you know, it's all in legal ease, too. If you're not a lawyer and you read these documents, it can be very confusing to know what actually happened. I'm wondering in these documents, does it name Sojourner or Isabelle at the time? Does it name her as the complainant, or is it like the DA took up this case? No, my understanding is that it names her as the complainant. But yeah, you're exactly right.

When we found these documents, we thought, Oh, the mystery is solved. And then as you dive into them, you're like, oh, it's actually more mysterious. It's more mysterious in some ways, how it ended the way that it did, and why the records ended up in Albany, because that was a question like we always had researchers coming to us in Ulster County asking us where the court case was, and for years we thought we lost it, or something like when people were looking for this in the early 1900s we knew we had the recognizance note, and we just thought, who knows the we didn't Have an archivist until 2000 so maybe sometime between 1828 and then it just was misplaced or misfiled. So it was a relief for us when they found it in Albany that when we were telling people for years we just don't have it, that turned out to be true. One of the more historic court cases we think in the country, really, it shares the foundation of like the original courthouses in Kingston and Ulster County, which the first courthouse, I believe, was built around 1661, it is seen virtually the entire history of Ulster County and a lot of our country. One of the biggest things that happened at that courthouse before the Sojourner Truth case was the New York State Constitution. So Kingston was the first capital of New York State, and the Constitution was being drafted here in Kingston, New York State Constitution. So folks like John Jay Governer Morris, George Clinton, were there drafting this New York State Constitution that included a lot of language that ended up in the United States Constitution, and it was read aloud for the first time in New York on the courthouse steps, right in front of where Sojourner Truth eventually walked Up to have her freedom granted, which is pretty remarkable. And those steps actually the original steps that Sojourner walked up. They just replaced and they took the old steps and just put them in Sojourner Truth Park, which is a state park here in Kingston, right along the river. So you can go see those, those historic steps now right along the brand new Sojourner Truth park just opened two years ago, I believe, and it's really a nice addition, but we're very proud of our courthouse here and some of the history that it's seen.

Devin:

Taylor, you're a city historian and a local government historian, and you went through the process of getting a Pomeroy marker. And what can you tell us about what that process was like and how it is working with Pomeroy, who I will know, is a funder of this program. The funder.

Taylor Bruck:

They're the absolute best we've gotten a couple markers through them now, and I find the process very fun, because you have to prove everything that you're saying. And for historians, I think that's very important, but they're rigorous in their research that is required to have them. If you see a Pomeroy sign, you can rest assured that that is a true statement that's on it, and that that really give me relief that they're not putting them up willy nilly, but they're super responsive. We went back and forth on the wording. They helped us with the wording, because for something this complicated, you do have a character limit, so it's hard to determine what's important enough to go on the marker itself. And they were able to give us really good guidance and help with the wording also, because depending on what the wording is, you have to prove different things. So that's always part of the fun of trying to draft it. It's almost like writing a poem. You have to really be clever and precise with the language, but just the responsiveness, and they're so polite, and you can tell they're always excited. It never even feels like they're at work when, when you talk to them about a marker idea, they usually jump right in, get their hands dirty and help out. I just love working with them.

Devin:

We'll make sure that gets included.

Lauren:

Taylor, can you tell us about the event of actually unveiling the marker? Did you do anything special? Did you invite people? How did that go?

Taylor Bruck:

Oh, yeah, this, was big time. We invited, you know, all of our local elected officials and so on. And our special guest Barbara Allen, who I think you'll be talking to as well. She is remarkable. I think she's seventh or eighth generation descendant of Sojourner Truth. So she came and spoke, and we were able to announce a very exciting project that was years in the making, really, but Sojourner Truth day, it is an official New York state holiday now, November 26 our local state representatives, Michelle Hinchey and Sarah Hana Shrestha, had been advocating and pushing for that after a youth group here though, YMCA farm hub youth group, a group largely of young women who, when they learned about Sojourner Truth in school, they said, this should really be a holiday. And they talked to our reps, they put in a resolution, and two years later, it went through, and we were able to announce that, actually, I think it was the day before we held our unveiling ceremony, the governor signed it into law, and that was a huge win for the whole community, really, but I shout out to those YMCA farm hub kids for getting this started, because it was really cool to see something started by I think when they started it, they were in like ninth and 10th grade, and by the time they graduated high school, they had passed a New York State law. Just remarkable work, and thankful for our state reps for listening and advocating on their behalf and getting it done.

Devin:

The first steps to freedom exhibit featuring the new bronze statue is on display in Kingston at City Hall until August 2025.

So after winning the court case, Sojourner Truth would go on to even greater accomplishments, if that's possible, and become a legendary figure in American history. First, she moved to New York City, where she spent some time, and then eventually moved on to New England and to Massachusetts, where she essentially became a preacher and an orator for the cause of the enslaved African Americans. And we have to really think about this deeply, because she could neither read nor write. She was completely illiterate, but she went on to become one of the most popular and powerful speakers against enslavement and eventually for women's rights and in the temperance movement.

 So she became one of these 19th century great orators along the same lines as what Frederick Douglass would become a couple decades later, when he gains his freedom, and again, follows a similar trajectory by moving to New York and then eventually New England, and then moving west, as our last episode discussed. So she really became a powerful orator. She also published a autobiography, obviously with the help of a ghost writer, that told her story how she walked to freedom, how she was able to free her son Peter, and then how she made the transition into a public speaker and a passionate advocate.

 It was in 1843 that she decided to change her name from her enslaved name to what we know her today as Sojourner Truth during the 19th century, probably the most famous speech that she was credited as giving took part on May 29 1851 as part of the Ohio women's rights convention in Akron, and this became known as the Ain't I a Woman, or Aren't I a Woman? Speech? Now there is some discussion among historians today as to whether or not she actually said those exact words or a version of those exact words, and one of the reasons that this is being discussed is because some of the people who were there and who really said that she meant, said these words years later, were giving Sojourner a southern accent and the way she spoke, they were kind of putting words into her mouth, and because we know that she grew up speaking Dutch in New York, she would not have had a southern accent, but irregardless, the sentiment was there, and she was advocating for the fact that men and women are equal and should be treated equally under the law.

So this became her kind of defining speech in the 19th century. She was also very good at creating her own image, similarly to Frederick Douglass, who many people suggest is the most photographed person in the 19th century, Sojourner Truth was probably a close second, and she did that to sell her image, to help support her activities as an advocate, and really controlling the image of herself and being able to profit from it, to make it so that she could continue her advocacy efforts.

Lauren:

In thinking about the legacy of Sojourner Truth in the present, it's great that we have these markers and monuments and statues to her, because her accomplishments were really remarkable for the time that she was living in as an African American woman, and we were lucky enough to be able to speak with Barbara Allen, a sixth great granddaughter of Sojourner Truth. And she explained to us what she's doing to keep moving the legacy of Sojourner Truth forward.

Barbara Allen:

My name is Barbara Allen. I am the sixth-generation granddaughter of Sojourner Truth, and probably everyone knows the story. When Sojourner walked away from slavery, she took her daughter, Sophia with her, and that is the line that my family is from, Sophia. Now, Sojourner, during her travels, she ended up in Battle Creek, Michigan, and that is where she's laid to rest at to this day. So most of my family is still here in Bell Creek, Michigan, and we honor the journey by going out and sharing her history. For me, I wrote two children's books. One of them was named Journey with Great Grandmother, and the other one is Remembering Great Grandmother. And I wrote them really to tell children about this, this wonderful woman, and what she did for all of us in history. And one of them is a story that my mom used to tell me over and over, about Sojourner. And it was amazing, because, you know, when I'm look when I'm smaller, I didn't understand just how fantastic this woman was, but as I got older, I kind of researched who she was, and so I wrote two children's book to share with other children.

Devin:

I'm curious. You're in Battle Creek, Michigan, and that's where Sojourner, you know, lived the end of her life and several decades. When did you first become aware of her origins in the Hudson Valley in New York? And maybe you can take us back to the first time that you would have come and visited the area, and what was that like as a descendant.

Barbara Allen:

That was amazing, because my mom used to tell me that she was, she was a slave in upstate New York. That's all I knew. Was the name upstate New York. And when I was a child, I used to think, where could that possibly be, you know, it just didn't resonate with me. The historian told me about Upstate New York again, but he never said Kingston to me. And when I wrote the two children's book, I think it was my first one, this young lady named Tiffany got a hold to me because she saw my Facebook, and she said, You need to come visit here. And I, and I was like, then, and she put in all the missing pieces for me. Sojourner up Kingston was upstate New York, because I didn't know I didn't know that. So the first time I came to visit, I actually was invited by, I think it's Scenic Hudson. They donated a park to Sojourner, right and I and it was Earth Day, and I think it was in me 2023, I came there for the first time. And I've been here probably five times since.

Devin:

Were you aware of the court case that she was is being commemorated on this marker, but was also a very groundbreaking court case, where were you aware of that history as well?

Barbara Allen:

Yes, I was aware of it. I was aware of it on the surface, like say, I didn't know a whole lot, but I was aware that she did sue to get her son Peter back. We didn't know that probably when I was a younger child, Ian. I had heard the name Peter, so I did know that I was there on the day that they brought the court records back, because they got lost, and then they had them, they brought them back. I was there for that as well. So it was amazing, you know, because I didn't know it was really basically two court cases gone, one to free him and one, one to get him back to his mother, and then one to free him. So it was amazing when I read some of the documents.

Battle Creek celebrates her just as much as Ulster County. And so I do read, especially during Sojourner Truth day in Black History Month. I read a lot in the local elementary schools, and one of my books I even read in the high school. The second book is more towards middle school and high school, but the first one is for more elementary children, and I read to them all the time. I read out our library, and I'll come to Kingston. I think I read at probably five schools there at one time in one day. And it was, it was amazing. So Kingston and Battle Creek both, they celebrate the journey for her time that she was there in Ulster County and for a time that she was in about in Battle Creek. So when I come to Ulster County, I feel like I'm bringing Sojourner home. I'm, I'm telling you  it's a spiritual visit for me every time.

Devin:

I can imagine.

Lauren:

Can you tell us a little bit about what the process was for you to write the actual children's book?

Well, I had known the story, you know, of course, some of the story. And the historian that taught me passed away, and he gave me a big box, well his wife did after he passed away, of all his research, a lot of his research. So I got to know Sojourner for like, two years after that, after he passed away, I just read everything that he had in there. So I got to know her more and more. And, you know, I talked to some family members about her, and I it was COVID, actually, when I wrote my first children's book, I had nothing else to do, you know, I thought, finally, I have some time to get this out of my head and get it onto paper. I just start typing I had, and I found an illustrator to illustrate all the pages, watercolor so that it looked like it was like back in history, and it was just it was beautiful.

Devin:

Sojourner Truth's historical legacy is assured and continues to this day. The emphasis on the court case came to a crescendo, really, last year, not only with the erection of the Pomeroy marker and Barbara Allen attending that event, but with the opening of the Sojourner Truth, first step to freedom exhibit, which features a bronze sculpture of Sojourner Truth, done by the renowned sculptor Trina green, it also the opening reception in September featured the documents that were discovered by the State Archives on display those archival documents, again, are available online at the New York State Archives for anyone who wants to download high resolution images and see those court cases. They are in the State Archives collection. They're not on display a lot because they are old and very fragile, but you can get a sense of what they say and their importance by taking a look at them firsthand on the Archives website, it's important for us to realize that as much as we are and should be commemorating Sojourner Truth in New York State and in Ulster County, her experiences there were not positive. She was not there by her own will, as we have seen, she had to walk away from enslavement. She had to battle for her son's freedom in the court of law in Ulster County. And it was really possibly, as a result of her experiences that she never returned to Ulster County after she left and after she moved to New York City and then eventually New England, and then eventually Battle Creek Michigan, where she spent the rest of her life.

Lauren:

One of the other things we learned about her legacy is that both the City of Kingston and Ulster County and Battle Creek Michigan work together to share the memory of Sojourner Truth, and both of those communities are doing things to make sure that her name is not forgotten, and that her accomplishments are talked about and that they help people today who may be who may be experiencing similar struggles in their own lives.

Taylor Bruck:

I would just encourage folks to stay tuned for the next Sojourner Truth Day, November 26 I think it's a state holiday. And again, the work that she did as a suffragist and an abolitionist should be celebrated statewide, not just here in Ulster or in Albany, and on November 26 really hope there are other communities that will do something for Sojourner and help get her story into schools. She's a very inspirational figure.

Barbara Allen:

She had hope. You know, she was a slave, and she still knew that there was a better life out there. And she hoped upon hope, and she did everything she could to be free. So, I see her legacy is just about hope and promise and that, that if you use your voice, you use what God has equipped you with, you can change things, you can you can make changes. And it doesn't have to be angry. It just has to be deliberate in what you're doing. And she was so deliberate and that's when I look at her, her legacy, that's what I think of. It's just hope. It gives people that hope to just get up and try again. She did that for me, if I sometimes, you know, if I have a bad time, I think about her, I think if she could do it, I definitely can pull myself back up. And I have because of her.

Markers of focus: Douglass Home, Monroe County

Interviewees: Hon. Malik D. Evans, Mayor of the City of Rochester.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by David Hopper. Our executive producer is Tina Renick.  Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Photographs courtesy of the William G. Pomeroy Foundation.

Frederick Douglass, 1879. Photograph by Frank W. Legg, National Archives and Records Administration.

Hon. Malik D. Evans, Mayor of the City of Rochester. Photo courtesy of the City of Rochester.

Further Reading:

Shayla Martin, “2 Black Heroes, 2 Cities in New York: A Journey into the Past,” The New York Times, 2024.

Frederick Douglass, The Frederick Douglass Collection: A Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, My Bondage and My Freedom, 2023.

David W. Blight, Frederick Douglass: Prophet of Freedom, 2020.

Victoria Sandwick Schmitt, “Rochester’s Frederick Douglass: Part One and Part Two, Rochester History, 2005.

Teacher Resources:

The Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History: Lesson Plans for Frederick Douglass

National Park Service: (H)our History Lesson: Frederick Douglass’s Life-long Fight for Justice and Equality.

PBS Learning Media: Becoming Frederick Douglass

Follow Along:

Devin Lander:

Welcome to A New York Minute in History I'm Devin Lander, the New York State Historian,

Lauren Roberts:

and I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. In honor of Black History Month, we're focusing on two markers for this episode, both located in the city of Rochester and both honoring the contributions of one man, Frederick Douglass. The first marker is located at 297 Alexander Street in the city of Rochester, and the text reads, Douglas home. Frederick and Anna Douglas lived in a home on this site with their five children, 1848 to 1851 welcomed freedom seekers on the Underground Railroad, the William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2018 the second marker is located at 271 Hamilton Street and is titled Douglas house. And the text reads, Frederick Douglass, noted abolitionist and orator, lived here with Sprague family. 1873 to 1874 owned a building for 32 years, William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2019, so both of these markers focus on the noted abolitionist orator and printer of the North Star, Frederick Douglass, and on this episode, we're going to take a look at his life and his influence, especially in the city of Rochester.

Devin:

And to do that, we spoke to Malik Evans, the Mayor of the City of Rochester.

Hon. Malik D. Evans:

So I'm Malik Evans. I'm the Mayor of the city of Rochester, and I grew up on a street in which Frederick Douglass owned a home the corner of bond in Hamilton. So it's great to be on, be on your show. And I'm a student of history. I love history, so any chance I get to talk about history, I like to take that opportunity. Well, my father was big into history, particularly African American history, and its effect that it had on America. So by the time I was probably 12 years old, I had read both of Frederick Douglass books. So Oh, wow. Became very aware of Frederick Douglass at an extremely early age, and also the elementary school that I went to, we knew that that was also near a site of where Frederick Douglass had lived, the house that actually was down the street from where I grew up. Grew up, we actually did become aware that that was a house that Frederick Douglass had lived in until I was older. So but, but the fact that he was in the area of the school that I would walk to every day, that that was cool. And then we knew he was buried in in Mount Hope cemetery. And then there was a in my neighborhood I grew up in. I grew up in a neighborhood where the statue was a Frederick Douglass in Rochester. So a lot of people don't know, but the first statue to an African American in America was to Frederick Douglass, and it was here, Eureka Lodge, number 36 back in the late 1800s commissioned that statue, and it was downtown, near the train station. At the time we had this major train station, and I mean, presidents came when the statue was unveiled. I mean Frederick Douglass was just really a major, major figure in Rochester history. So I was very, very much aware of Frederick Douglass growing up. There was a gentleman who's now probably close to in his 90s, Dr David Anderson, who actually would play Frederick Douglass when I was in elementary school. He would come to the school dressed as, you know, dressed as Frederick Douglass. So he's always been someone that is a that someone I looked up to as a hero, and His books were just amazing to me, that someone was able to write like that and not have a background in in schooling. I mean, he never PhD or or a master's degree in English, but you would think he would by however. When his writing was, you know, Rochester was, was a stop on the Underground Railroad. It was, it was a safer place to be than in the south, but it also had a strong abolitionist movement. I think that when he started writing his doing his newspaper here, which ran for years, the North Star, was published in Rochester for years that, you know, that kept him here, and people came through here. He had a great friendship with Susan B, Anthony, who was also here, I d B, wells, Barnett came through here. So Rochester was, was a place that all these people could come to and but it was also very strategically located, yeah. So I think that that helped him. John Brown. John Brown, who, you know, who was hung but was a big abolitionist. He came through here to meet and talk with Frederick Douglass and when John Brown was captured and hung, if you remember, Frederick Douglass left and went overseas for an entire year before he returned, before he returned back to Rochester. So I think it was just, you know, a place that was that that was comfortable, comfortable to him, and a place where he saw as a base of his work. You know, he's born in Cordova, Maryland, but if you look at the most amount of time that he spent, it's been in Rochester. So I always argue with my my fellow mayors in Baltimore or in Maryland, and I say, No, Fred, you go. Belongs to us. He might have been born in Maryland, but he spent more time in Rochester than any other place, and he's buried here, yeah. So you know that's what states our claim to Douglas.

Devin:

Yeah, I think we should talk a little bit about how Frederick Douglass ended up in Rochester, New York. Well, he was born into slavery in Maryland and Tuckahoe, Maryland, to be precise. And he was actually born Frederick, August, Washington, Bailey. His last name was not Douglas at the time, and he was born into slavery raised predominantly by his grandparents, because, as was a common practice during the time slave owners often sold off children's mothers or vice versa before the age of one, in many cases. So that happened to Frederick, his mother was sold off to other slave owners, and he was raised by his grandparents. He started out his enslavement as what was commonly known as a house slave. So he was six years old when he actually started laboring for his his owner and doing errands and odd jobs as as a child would be able to do eventually, Frederick's enslaver died, and he was inherited as property by this person's brother in law, and he ended up being traded to this person's brother and ended up in Baltimore, where the enslaved had a little bit different experience than those working on the rural plantations and the hard labor he was, Frederick was actually able to learn a task while he was in Baltimore. He was a ship caulker, and although he had to give most of his wages to his owner, he was able to keep some of that for himself. And it was also during this time in Baltimore when he took the first step towards what he would eventually be in his career, and he learned how to read. He was actually taught for a short period of time by his owner's wife, who taught her son and a young Frederick some of the rudimentary spelling and language. Once the husband found out, he ended that, because it was actually illegal in the south to teach an enslaved person how to read and write. So Frederick was kind of left on his own, and he kept learning, though, he took this rudimentary knowledge that he had, and really expanded on it on his own. He basically taught himself how to read and write, and this would be the again, the first step in his journey towards becoming the iconic orator and author that he became.

Lauren:

after experiencing a few years in the city of Baltimore, he is again sent back to rural plantation life in Maryland, and he talks about how the experiences he had in the city really made it unbearable to go back to the rural plantation life, where he was starving, where he witnessed brutality, beatings and whippings all the time. They weren't given any of the basic comforts they needed to really survive and thrive, and he just finds it really hard to deal with because he had experienced this other life in the city of Baltimore, and so he's eventually sent by his enslaver to someone known as a slave breaker, which is a horrible man who was known to try to break the spirits of enslaved people who were considered to have a strong, wild spirit, they needed to be tamed and basically beaten into submission. And he fights back. Douglas finds the courage to fight back against this slave breaker. Miraculously, he doesn't experience any major punishment for this, but he notes this as one of the ways that he really gains confidence in himself, that he has shown that a struggle, where he's in the underdog position, and he fights back, gives him the confidence to really have hope and believe that his life will get better, that he will get the opportunities to seek freedom, and it's really a pivotal moment in his life. After his time with this slave breaker, he eventually goes back to the city of Baltimore, and has another pivotal moment in his life when he meets his future wife, Anna Murray.

Devin:

Yeah, this is a vitally important in his story and their story as a family, obviously, but his wife, Anna Murray, was actually born free, although her parents were enslaved, her and some of her siblings were born free. She was a domestic servant when they met in Baltimore, and she really helped give Frederick the courage, I think, and also some financial backing for him to be able to flee, which he does in 1838 when he leaves Baltimore and ends up in New York City, where he waits for Anna to join him, and where the two are actually married, they then move to Massachusetts, and they end up settling in New Bedford, Massachusetts, where Frederick actually works for a while as a ship caulker and as a general laborer and tries to support his family. That's where his daughter, his first daughter, is born. And Anna also takes work as, again, as a domestic at this time. And they're kind of moving in the direction of a working class African American couple in New Bedford with a small family.

Lauren:

And the way that Douglas was able to take his own freedom was that he dressed as a sailor and he had papers semen papers from a friend of his and Anna Murray actually supported him by purchasing or helping him purchase the train ticket that would then bring him north.

Devin:

It was in New Bedford that Frederick Douglass actually became Frederick Douglass. He changed his name from Frederick Bailey to Frederick Douglass as a way to remain anonymous as a fugitive slave. This was a very difficult time for those who fled enslavement and remained in the United States, they could be hunted down, essentially, and brought back to slavery. So he changed his name. The family took the name Douglas, and it was in New Bedford that Frederick met the Reverend Thomas James from the AME Zion chapter in New Bedford, who was an African American Reverend and also an abolitionist, who happened to have spent several years in Rochester, New York. He was actually born enslaved in Canajoharie, New York, and then fled to Canada to achieve his freedom, but then settled in Rochester and spent some time there, where he became a reverend and also was self-educated. So it was really Thomas James and his experiences in Rochester that introduced the idea of moving to Rochester to Frederick Douglass. The second important person that Frederick Douglass met at this time was William Lloyd Garrison, who was one of the most prominent abolitionists in the North. He was the editor of The Liberator which at the time was essentially the most important abolitionist newspaper. He was also a prominent in abolitionist organizations that met around the north and brought in speakers to talk about the horrors of slavery and the moral degradation of slavery. And he meets Frederick Douglass and realizes that Frederick Douglass had been born enslaved, and asks him to tell his story about how he was enslaved and how he achieved his freedom. Douglas does so and blows people's minds, basically, with his ability to speak and to talk eloquently and passionately and in a moving way about his own experiences. And so William Lloyd Garrison asks Frederick Douglass if he would like to have a job going around and representing the abolitionist movement at different gatherings and essentially become a professional public speaker. Yeah, and I think it's really important that the focus is on his own story, right? It makes it so much more powerful that he lived this experience. And sometimes we think of the North being far removed from slavery. And of course, you know, at this time, there wasn't slavery in in New York, it was abolished in 1827, so northerners are somewhat removed from the actual day to day horrors of slavery, but when someone comes to them and is speaking about their personal experience, I think that that raw truth really makes more of an impact. And so Douglas was able to really influence people by his own experiences, that's absolutely true, and in reality, it's it's what makes him famous, you know, for the first time, not only as a speaker, but in publishing his first autobiography, The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, which becomes An instant bestseller, and really makes him famous and makes his name attached even more closely to the abolitionist movement. And it's really this fame from his speaking and from his own autobiography that leads to a speaking tour that takes him to Europe and the British Isles, specifically, for 18 months that he spends essentially on the road in Europe giving talks about the abolitionist movement, fundraising for the Abolitionist Movement, which was always part of what he was hoping to achieve, not only getting the word out and telling people about the horrors of slavery, but also fundraising. It was while he was in the British Isles for that 18 month period that his friends there raised money to send back to his former enslaver so that he would no longer have any claim upon Douglas as his property. And so once he does come back to America, he comes back as a free man after this long tour, and after fundraising around $4,000 for the cause that he decides he would like to open his own abolitionist newspaper and print his own abolitionist newspaper. Unfortunately, his colleagues and associates in the abolitionist movement in New Bedford think that would be a terrible idea. They can't envision an African American man having his own newspaper and printing and distributing that. They don't think it'll be successful. They think the resources could be spent better in other ways. So it's really that decision on their part, that makes Frederick Douglass think that perhaps New Bedford is not the best place for him and his family to be, and instead, he chooses to move to Rochester, which he had heard About through his association with the Reverend Thomas James.

Lauren:

And once he got to Rochester, he turned his attention to the press. What better way to get his message out to a larger audience than the newspaper? And so on December 3 of 1847 he published his first issue of the North Star, and he uses the name the North Star because that was known as a guide for freedom seekers. They used the north star as a direction for heading north towards Canada, towards freedom. The North Star really becomes probably the most influential venture that Douglas takes on in his time in Rochester.

Hon. Malik D. Evans:

Well, I just think that, you know, it's amazing to think that in the 1800s during slavery, you had a fruit, you had an African American publisher of a newspaper that was almost basically circulated worldwide. I mean, I think that that's important for people to remember. So I think it gives people help hope to know that during the some of the most turbulent times in our country, you had an anti slavery newspaper in the 19th century that was published and well received. And not only that, it was a weekly newspaper, which not monthly. I mean, that is, I mean, you know, Frederick Douglass was the editor. And for, you know, from 1847 I think, to about 1851 you had this newspaper that was being circulated around, around the country, you know, similar to the liberator, you know, it's, it's sold prescript subscriptions. I think they were $2 a year, which is amazing. This might have been a lot of money back then, but it had readers in Europe, in the Caribbean. So I just, I just think that it was, you know, it to me, it was brilliant and amazing to know that someone was able to publish such a newspaper during a time where publishing something like that could get you, could get you killed, and Frederick Douglass was able to do it.

Devin:

And Anna Douglas plays a massive role in all of this, because it's really her keeping of the home keeping of the five children that they end up having in Rochester and everything else kind of in operation while he Frederick is on the road. So Anna Douglas doesn't really get the amount of credit that she really deserves, and being able to enable Frederick Douglass to become this great orator, this great publisher and this great author, without her, probably none of that would have happened. And as we saw before, really, without her financial backing, he may not have ever even been able to leave Baltimore or enslavement.

Lauren:

yeah, and not only just keeping the home for her husband and her children, but we know that he was a conductor on the Underground Railroad, very active while he was in Rochester, and while he was absent on all of these speaking tours, the freedom seekers didn't stop coming. So she would have still been responsible and a large part of helping African Americans seeking freedom in arranging for them to stay either at their house or other houses that were part of the anti slavery movement, feeding them, finding them enough money so that they could get to Canada. She would have been very important in all of those details of the Underground Railroad, since he was gone for so long, he also traveled to Saratoga County. He actually came and spoke in June of 1849 and we know about his experiences here in Saratoga County because he wrote about it in one of the issues of the North Star. And this is, you know, a part of what he talks about. He actually speaks three times. The first time he speaks in Schuylerville, he gives a lecture at a schoolhouse near Dean's corners, which is a small hamlet within the town of Saratoga. And finally, on the third day, he speaks at the Friends Meeting House in Quaker springs, which is also in the town of Saratoga. He talks about how the crowd was largely made up of Quakers, the Quaker community in Saratoga County. We think that he came to Saratoga County because of some family connections through the Quaker community. That's how he knew that he could come here and be welcomed by the Quaker community and have an audience. Because he also, you know, in the same article where he's talking about some of the other places that he went, he says, you know, some of those meetings were not successful in Saratoga, he really felt like his influence could help the anti slavery cause. He actually says, quote, I had a quiet and undisturbed meeting and circulated a number of my narratives which may pave the way for anti slavery effort in that place, unquote so he, you know, he's making these tours and speaking so that he can further the cause of anti slavery.

Frederick Douglass spent 25 years of his life in the city of Rochester. He does eventually leave and he moves down to Washington, DC. Rochester was his home. It wasn't without tensions, and he did experience prejudice there as well. While he had moved down to DC, actually, his one of his homes in Rochester caught on fire and burned to the ground while his daughter and son in law were living inside. They did live through it, but he felt very bitter about that. But he always considered Rochester his home, so much so that even after dying in Washington, DC, his remains were brought back. His funeral held in Rochester, he was given a lot of honors, and he chose to be buried there. His influence over the city continues today in the ways that they choose to honor his memory and his activism, and even Currently, there are projects underway that make sure that Frederick Douglass is remembered in Rochester.

Devin:

One of those projects was the purchase of several Frederick Douglas statues by the city of Rochester that were erected originally in 2018.

Hon. Malik D. Evans:

So first off, let me tell you was, is this, this has been a very popular move that we did. So what happened was, these statues in 2018 were meant to be outside for, like, a year. Okay, they were so popular we kept them out there longer, but they were, they weren't designed to be out there that long, so they got very weathered, and they were going to be decommissioned and put into storage. And I said, Oh, no, we can't do that. So we found a way for the city to acquire those, get them all restored, and then, and then I made the mistake of saying, we'll talk to community organizations and see who wants them. Well, wow, overwhelmingly, everyone wants them. So we have to have we came up with a process to see where we could put these restored statues. And in fact, just a week ago, we unveiled one at the Hall of Justice in the atrium. So anybody going to the courthouse, they will see this statue and it will have some information on Frederick Douglass. So we thought that this was very important to have these statues live, live on, because they are an opportunity for it to be a teaching tool for future generations who may not be familiar with Frederick Douglass, to say who is this person and why is he important, not only just in Rochester history, but in American history.

Devin:

So just circling back to the statue that's in it's an aqueduct Park, the one by the Talman building. And the Talman building is still there, and it's still is there, like businesses in there, believe it or not, there is a printing business that's there.

Hon. Malik D. Evans:

Ah, there's, there's a printing business there and there, and a couple of other business that are rip businesses that are there. But that are there. But that building is extremely significant. We want to make sure that we preserve it, because it's been there. If you go in that building, there's a plat that talks about how it was Frederick Douglass, how he printed the newspaper there. So he printed there and there, and there's also an old church where he also printed some of some of the other things that were there. So I mean, I think it's so very, very important. I think one of the things that troubles me sometimes is that I think if you if you don't learn you know, sounds cliche, but if you don't know history, you're doomed to repeat it. And that's true. I mean, when you look through the when you want to know an answer to something, go back and look at the historical record. You know, I'm a preacher's kid, and you know, the book of Ecclesiastes says there's nothing new under the sun. And to make it even more non religious, Mark Twain said that history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes, right? And so if, when we're wrestling or dealing with something, go back and look at how people dealt with it before. This isn't, you know, a lot of the stuff that we're seeing is not new. The year might be new, the conversations might be new. But there was some times over some historical period, either in American history or world history, which you know it was Ian. You can go back and look and see how people dealt with it. So that's why it's important for number one, to make sure that people work to learn history in an authentic way, but also that we don't minimize history, that it's not relegated to something that's not important. And that happens a lot. You know, you're often here. I always get upset when I hear people say, oh, you know, I'm minored in history in college. People say, Oh, what are you gonna do with that? It's like, well, there's a lot you can do with it. Of all of our greatest rewards, history is our greatest teacher. It's, it's, it's extremely important for that we that we make sure we honor, that we invest in our museums, that we visit, museums that we read, that we look to see what what history said. I mean, I'm always going back to look, to say, Okay, what happened here. So I think that that is very important for us to make sure that we are engaging in history in our everyday lives, is extremely important. I mean, could you imagine if we didn't know about Frederick Douglass? How many people has he inspired that we don't even know? You know, I learned the other day, for example, that that he used the shackles that used to hold him when he was in bondage, and he melted them down and made him into weights that he used to to exercise. I mean, I never knew that, but I heard that. I heard that the other day. So every day, there's something new that you learn about Frederick Douglass.

Devin:

Thanks for listening to A New York Minute in History. This podcast is a production of WAMC northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum With support from the William G Pomeroy Foundation. Our producer is David Hopper.

Lauren:

A big thanks to city of Rochester Mayor Malik Evans for taking part. If you enjoyed this month's episode, make sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and share on social media to learn more about our guests and the show. Check us out at W, A, M, C, podcast.org We're also on x and Instagram as @NYHistory Minute,

Devin & Lauren:

I'm Devin Lander and I'm Lauren Roberts, until next time, Excelsior.

The episode also tells the story of Isaac Ormsbee, a white private in the Rhode Island Regiment who took part in the Oswego Expedition and mustered out at Saratoga. He would later return to Saratoga on foot, walking from Rhode Island to the Town of Greenfield, to purchase land there. Descendants of Isaac Ormsbee still live on that land today.

Markers of Focus: Patriot Burials: Ormsbee Cemetery, Saratoga County.

Interviewees: Dr. Shirley L. Green, author of Revolutionary Blacks: Discovering the Frank Brothers, Freeborn Men of Color, Soldiers of Independence and Eric Schnitzer, Park Ranger and Military Historian at the Saratoga National Historical Park.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by David Hopper. Our executive producer is Tina Renick.  Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Photo courtesy of Saratoga County Historian.

Further Reading:

The New York State 250th Commemorative Field Guide—Office of State History and the Association of Public Historians of NYS.

Shirley L. Green, Revolutionary Blacks: Discovering the Frank Brothers, Freeborn Men of Color, Soldiers of Independence (2023)

Gary B. Nash, The Forgotten Fifth: African Americans in the Age of Revolution (2006)

Robert Geake, From Slaves to Soldiers: The 1st Rhode Island Regiment in the American Revolution (2010)

Teaching Resources:

National History Day: “Promises Made, Promises Broken: The Rhode Island First Regiment and The Struggle for Liberty”

Battle of Rhode Island Association: Resources

New York State 250th Commemoration Commission: Educator Resources

Consider the Source New York: American Revolution

Follow Along:

Devin Lander

Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian.

Lauren Roberts:

and I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On this episode, we're focusing on a marker in Saratoga County. It's located at 299 Ormsbee Road in the town of Greenfield, and the text reads,

Patriot burials, Ormsbee cemetery, revolutionary war veterans, Ambrose Cole and Isaac Ormsbee interred here circa 1828 to 1848 both served in Rhode Island as privates. William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2023.

Now this marker is part of Pomeroy’s partner program called The Patriot Burial Markers. They do this in conjunction with the Sons of the American Revolution, and this allows people to mark cemeteries that have patriots from the American Revolution buried in them.

I think this program is a good way to include a lot of different communities that might not have maybe a specific battle in their backyard or a historic site directly tied to the revolution, but so many of the veterans that fought in the American Revolution moved to other places after the war and settled in small, rural towns, and so these small family cemeteries often hold a lot of really interesting stories, and the Patriot Burial Marker Program gives you a chance to mark these unmarked cemeteries, and it also gives you a chance to delve into some of these individual stories of the veterans that are buried there.

Now the Patriot burial marker program has a few requirements. The cemetery can't be already marked as having Patriot burials in it. So, if you already have that marker, it would disqualify you from this program. If you don't, this is a great way to mark a cemetery and to have communities included in the upcoming 250th commemoration of the American Revolution.

Now this marker in particular is in front of Ormsee cemetery. It's a small family cemetery, and there are two patriots called out, Isaac Ormsbee and Ambrose Cole. And Isaac Ormsbee is the one that we're going to be talking about today. Not to leave out Ambrose Cole, but his military record is a little more sparse. We know a little bit less about him and his story in the revolution. We know that he was from Barrington, Rhode Island, and he did come to the town of Greenfield in Saratoga and settle alongside of Isaac Ormsbee. But Isaac has a really interesting story.

Isaac Ormsbee enlisted in January of 1781, for three years of service. So, he enlists towards the end of the war, he is with the Rhode Island Regiment. They’re present at Yorktown for the defeat of Cornwallis. And then after that, he is in the Hudson Highlands, and then the Rhode Island regiment comes to Saratoga in 1782 and 1783.

But one of the really interesting parts of his story is that after the revolution, he walks from Rhode Island back to Saratoga to find farmland, and then moves here in the 1790s and he leaves behind a diary that describes exactly the route he took on foot, walking from Barrington to Greenfield, covering 20 to 30 miles a day. He talks about all of the different places that they stop along the way. He even describes stopping in Ballston Spa, which was then Ballston Springs, and tasting the mineral water. He comments on the taste of the water, before he makes it up to Greenfield, where he purchases a farm that's part of the Kayaderosseras Patent. And then walks back to Rhode Island, where he collects his family and his things, and they move to the town of Greenfield.

And of course, we think that he was familiar with Saratoga, because he was stationed there at Saratoga, which was actually in what we now call the town of Stillwater. And then his family continues to live in the town of Greenfield. In fact, the people that own the farmhouse are still descendants of the Ormsbee family, and the person whose property the cemetery is on, he's also a descendant of the Ormsbee family. So they have a long history, from right after the revolution all the way through until present day, where they settled. Obviously, the road, Ormsbee road is named after the family. They continued to farm there for quite a long time, and part of the original farmhouse is still located there.

As part of the Patriot Burial Marker Program, we had a ceremony at the Ormsbee cemetery to unveil the marker. We were joined by the family, Mark Young, who was so gracious in helping us to erect the sign. And he cares for the cemetery itself. And one really interesting thing, one of the other descendants, Cy Young, actually has in his possession the spy glass that was used by Isaac Ormsbee when he was serving in the American Revolution, and he brought it out for us to see.

• Clifford (Cy) Young, direct descendent of Isaac Ormsbee, showing Isaac’s spy glass to Tim Mabee of the Saratoga Battle Chapter of the Sons of the American Revolution. Photo courtesy of Saratoga County Historian.

And Devin, you know that we have been working together on a regional working group for the 250th, so we have lots of the New England states and New York, and we meet pretty often and talk about all the different things that we're doing for the 250th.  

And through that group, I met Lauren Fogarty, who is the program coordinator for Rhode Island 250 and she was gracious enough to arrange for Secretary of State Greg Moore, to send a citation from the state of Rhode Island, thanking us for honoring these Rhode Island veterans. And it was really great. We read it at the ceremony at the Ormsbee cemetery.

It's been a really interesting journey to find out about this. And I don't know about you, but when I'm researching about the revolution, there's so many different things you can delve into, but it's when you see these personal stories, it's the individuals that make up the Continental Army that really make it interesting to learn more about. And it's great when we have a program like Patriot Burials, where we can mark these patriots.

Devin:

I think this is incredibly interesting. And you know, not only the story of Ormsbee himself, which is fascinating, but once we delve into the history of the regiment that he was part of which is mentioned, you know that he was from Rhode Island along with the other veteran, but the regiment that he was part of is actually quite famous. It's known most regularly as the First Rhode Island Regiment, although it went through different iterations when it's formed and it was formed as a multiracial unit at the beginning of its formation in 1775.  Not segregated. These soldiers were all together in fighting and combat and marching and everything together, whether they were white, whether they were African American, or whether they were Native American, and they could be free born or otherwise. To learn more about the Rhode Island Regiment itself, we spoke with Dr Shirley L. Green, who recently published a book on the regiment told through the story of her own family and her own ancestors, the Frank brothers, who served in the Rhode Island Regiment and were free born African Americans.

Shirley L. Green:

I'm Shirley Green. I was born and raised in Toledo, Ohio. I was a police officer for 26 years for the local police agency, the Toledo police department. I eventually obtained the rank of Lieutenant on that department; I was the first female lieutenant in the history of PPD. After my retirement, I attended graduate school at the University of Toledo and then Bowling Green University, and I got my PhD in history at Bowling Green State University. And currently, I serve as an adjunct professor of history at the University of Toledo and at Bowling Green State University, and I am also the Director of the Toledo police Museum.

Devin:

That's great. What a career you've had two it's been a long one, two or three careers. That's great. So, let's talk a little bit about how you came to this idea of writing this book and telling a portion of your family history through the Frank brothers and how this whole idea come about.

Shirley L. Green:

So, I was always curious about my maternal grandfather. He was quite elderly when I was growing up, and he lived in Massachusetts with his family. I hit my grandmother, and that is where my mother was born and raised, in a town called Lynn, Massachusetts, and we used to visit for most of the summers, we would go visit him, and he had a Canadian flag displayed in the dining room. And I asked him about the flag, and he said, Well, that's where I'm from. I'm from Nova Scotia, Canada. And I was always curious as to how a black family came to be in Nova Scotia Canada, and that always sat at the back of my mind. So, I was an undergraduate African American class at the University of Toledo. It was being taught by Dr Nikki Taylor, who I believe now teaches at Howard University. But anyway, she was talking about the first great wave of emancipation after the American Revolution. And she started to talk about a group of people known as Black loyalists. And she said many of them, not all, but many of them would eventually leave the United States, the new United States, and eventually migrate to Nova Scotia. And as soon as she said that, my head popped up. I stopped taking notes. And after class, I went up and talked to her about it, and she asked me if my grandfather was a descendant of one of the black loyalists. I said, I don't know.

So, I went home, and I started to question my mother's family members, and eventually I talked to the oldest surviving member of her family, my uncle Ben Franklin, and he told me this story. He said that there were two brothers with the last name of Frank who fought with the black regiment out of Rhode Island for the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War, both brothers started in the spring of 1777, and at this point, Rhode Island was required to provide two infantry regiments for the Continental Army service, and they were the first and second Rhode Island regiments.

The Frank brothers enlisted into the second Rhode Island regiment, which was an integrated battalion, and that battalion regiment was composed of white, black or Native American soldiers, and they had white command officers. And for the Frank brothers, they were receiving the same amount of pay as their white counterparts. When they did receive it, they got the same equipment, they got the same assignments, so they were getting that equality that they had signed up for. But those continental soldiers, especially the first year of their service, were living very tough and rough lives. As I said, the pay was very sporadic due to the limited treasury of the new federal government and the state governments. When they were paid, they got right around $7 a month, which I don't know what that extrapolates out to, in current terms, right around $200 a month. I believe. They were issued muskets and bayonets. Their issue clothing consisted of hunting shirts or smocks, smocks that were big enough to cover up all the rest of their equipment. Their shoes were always in short supply. I know we hear the story about shoeless continental soldiers, but their shoes were always in short supply in the summer. Sometimes they would go barefoot in the winter. Sometimes they would have to wrap their feet. There is a diary entry from one of the doctors at Valley Forge who said All he had to do was follow the bloody footprints into the winter encampment. It was so bad for them, and they also had to deal with diseases, diseases that ran rampant through those camps. There was smallpox epidemic during the Revolutionary War, which led to General Washington inoculating the troops to make sure that they didn't die from smallpox. So that's how tough it was for the brothers that first year.

At the beginning of the war, when General Washington took command of the Continental Army, he basically gave his recruiting and enlisting officers the mandate to not enlist black or black soldiers, and he was concerned about continuing support from the south for the war effort, and he did not wish to

to arm black men to serve in the common army, and that's whether they were formally enslaved or where they were free born, like the Frank brothers. Um, his hand was pushed. He decided to change his policy when the royal governor of Virginia, Lord Dunmore, issued a proclamation in November of 1770 I'm going to get this date wrong, so I won't say it, but Lord Dunmore, it's, I want to say 1775 but I don't think that's it. Um, anyway, he proclaimed a proclamation, and it basically stipulated to enslave black and Native American men, that if they came to the British side, that they would gain their freedom if they were willing to fight for the Brits, and around 2000 if that number is correct. It's pretty tough to determine how many fugitive slaves ran to the British side, but a great number of them did do so, and he was able to start his own black regiment called the Ethiopian regiment. He trained them, he gave them uniforms, and they did fight in a couple of battles for the British side. So, when that happened, George Washington had to react to that, and he also was reacting to some pleas and appeals from black leadership in the in the Revolutionary era America and some of his own command officers who wanted to allow the enlistment of veterans who had already fought in the militia, to allow them to serve an accountant army. So, in January of 1776 he revised his policy and allowed free veteran soldiers to enlist an accountant army. Then in January of 1777 he changed his policy once again to allow all free black men to enlist, and that's what allowed the Frank brothers to enlist in the spring of 1777.

So, Washington was against arming enslaved people and but because of the circumstances at Valley Forge, general Varnum and other Rhode Islanders were able to convince them that they could go back to their home state and enlist a battalion of slaves. And Washington agreed. The Rhode Island General Assembly agreed as well, and they allowed couple of their a few of their command officers to leave the Valley Forge encampment to go back to the state of Rhode Island and enlist a battalion of slaves. So at this point in time, you have the first and second Rhode Island regiments that are decimated at Valley Forge. Now you have this great influx of formerly enslaved men who are now going to be trained and serving with the Continentals as part of the Rhode Island regiments. And for some reason or another, and I can't find any written policy that states it, but for some reason, I believe that this is the first case of sanctioned segregation in American military history. Because what happened was the new recruits were combined with over 70 documented veteran, black and Native American soldiers from both the first and the second Rhode Island regiments, and they were all transferred to the newly configured first Rhode Island regiment, and that would become known as the Black regiment. So now you have all of the white soldiers that were initially serving in the first Rhode Island regiment. They all were transferred to the second Rhode Island regiment, and the any black soldiers, or Native American soldiers, like the Frank brothers who were serving in the second Rhode Island regiment were all transferred to the first Rhode Island regiment. So, you have these segregated forces now in the Rhode Island Continentals and they also had white command officers, Ian.

What is really interesting about what happens with the Rhode Island regiments. They started when, when the Franks is enlisted in the spring of 1777, they started with these two infantry regiments that were integrated. You had white soldiers, black soldiers, Native American soldiers, all serving together. Then you have Valley Forge. You have the slave enlistment act. There's a segregation of the regiments.

And by February of 1781, they have lost more often, more soldiers, I shouldn't say officers, more soldiers, during this period of time. And they just finally decided that the best thing, the deal, the best way to deal with this, this lack of manpower, was just to consolidate the first and second Rhode Island regiments. So, they became the first and second Rhode Island consolidated regiment, and it was now being led by the original commander of the black regiment, a guy by name of Christopher Green.

And in the spring, the first and second consolidated led by Colonel green. They were in camp in Westchester County, New York, near pines bridge, and their primary responsibility was to guard the continental lines and but in Westchester County, there was almost a daily confrontation between loyalists and patriots, and that area was known to have a lot of guerrilla warfare that was being carried out by a loyalist group that was led by a colonel by the name of James Delancey. The group was known as Delancey’s core of refugees, and they were composed of American born soldiers who were living in Westchester County and had chosen to remain loyal to the British cause.

And at sunrise on Monday May the 14th, 1781, Delancey led his loyalist militia group towards Pines Bridge, and one group would attack the guards at Pines bridge, and another group would attack the headquarters of Colonel Green, which was located at a place called Davenport House near Pines Bridge, and that is where the most brutal fighting occurred at the Davenport House. There, Colonel Green in a small detachment of soldiers from the first and second Rhode Island. They were ambushed there, the major who was in the headquarters sleeping with in the same room as Colonel Green, he was awoken he was shot in the head while he was reaching for his pistols to fend off the attack. Um excuse me, Colonel Green was wounded in the initial attack, and what they did they attached his wounded and dying body, they strapped it to a horse and dragged him about a mile away from the Davenport House. Alright, they eventually left Colonel Green's body at the side of a road, and of course, it was later buried along with Major Flagg at a cemetery in Westchester County. There is a monument there that commemorates that battle. It is located in Yorktown Heights, New York and Westchester County. Pines Bridge Monument is probably the first Revolutionary War Memorial that depicts a white American and that is Colonel Green, an African American member of the original black regiment and a Native American all fighting together. There's three statues on top of this monument. It's an amazing monument. So, if any of your listeners are in that area, they really should go to Yorktown Heights and take a look at that monument. It is an amazing piece of work.

Lauren:

We noted earlier that Isaac Ormsbee enlisted in January of 1781, so he would have been present with the regiment in May of 1781, at the Battle of Pines Bridge.

• Verger, Jean Baptiste Antoine De, Artist. Soldiers in Uniform. United States of America Rhode Island, 1781. [Williamsburg, Virginia: publisher not identified, to 1784] Photograph. https://www.loc.gov/item/2021669876/.

Everyone knows what happened in Saratoga in 1777 when Burgoyne surrendered to the American troops there known as the turning point of the American Revolution. But after that date, Saratoga kind of takes a back seat to other main players during the revolution. So, we may be wondering, why would the Rhode Island regiment be sent to Saratoga in 1782 much later in the war after Yorktown has already happened. In order to learn more about why the regiment was sent there, we spoke with park ranger and military historian Eric Schnitzer from Saratoga National Historical Park.

Eric Schnitzer:

My name is Eric Schnitzer, I am the park ranger military historian at Saratoga National Historical Park. i.e. Saratoga battlefield. I've been at the park since 1997 and I've learned a lot over that time. As you can imagine, for decades being in this wonderful place, I've always had an obsession with the military events of the Revolutionary War. Ever since I was an elementary schooler and learned about the subject in fourth grade, and then my interest was further spurred when in seventh grade, I learned from a great teacher the broader story. And since then, of course, read and wrote and worked as a park ranger to continue all of that. So certainly, General Burgoyne’s British Army, invading New York from Canada, surrendered in October of 1777, at Saratoga. When we say at Saratoga in an 18th century context, we are typically referring to what is now known as the village of Schuylerville. So, when Burgoyne’s army surrendered there in Saratoga, i.e. Schuylerville in 1777.

No longer would you have massive invading armies coming out of Canada trying to quell the unnatural rebellion of these revolutionary Americans. You know, from the north, it wouldn't happen again. The British had learned their lesson the hard way with the surrender of the first ever British Army in World History, General Burgoyne’s Surrender at Saratoga. Now the British forces would never strike directly at Saratoga. They didn't do so because Saratoga was really kind of the hub, the strongest hub, that the Continental Army held north of Albany. It had been Saratoga garrisoned by Continental troops since the very beginning of the war in 1775 and would be throughout the remainder of the war, through December of 1783 there was always a Continental Army presence in Saratoga. But even after we're going surrender, Saratoga was the northern most permanent outpost of continental troops. And so, you always had a presence there. I'm not saying you had 3000 troops there at any time, but you would always have a cadre of Continental Army forces. They would have a barracks there, block houses, of course, a supply depot, at times, the commander of the Northern department of the Continental Army, let's say John Stark, later in the war, his space of operations was in Saratoga. So, Saratoga was a stalwart northern most defense for the Continental Army operations.

Lauren:

So then, why was it, if there was always a presence there…What happened in 1782 that had the Rhode Island regiment moving up to Saratoga?

Eric Schnitzer.

When they were ordered to go to Saratoga in October of 1782 when they actually got there, in November of 1782 that regiment had been present with the main army for a couple of years already, and so now it was time for them to replace another regiment that had been doing the duty. So, it was just part of the cyclical deployment operations of the Continental Army, and it happened to be that the Rhode Island Regiment was the regiment selected. There is no known reason why the Rhode Island Regiment was chosen, as opposed to some other unit. There's no known documentation or thoughts written down by anybody that informs us why that regiment was chosen as opposed to another.

Lauren:

So, the Rhode Island Regiment is pretty famous for being an integrated regiment. I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit about what those demographics looked like while they were at Saratoga

Eric Schnitzer:

The Rhode Island regiments of which there were two, formed in 1777 late 76 early 1777 were racially integrated. But then in starting in 1778 Rhode Island decided that they were going to actually segregate their two regiments. The first regiment would be black only insofar as the enlisted personnel. You'd have white officers, commissioned officers, but black men would be in the ranks. And then the second regiment was racially integrated, and it didn't work. It did not work. And so, by 1781 at the part of 1781 Rhode Island decided that what they needed to do was combine their two regiments into one, and that's where we get the Rhode Island regiment. When the regiment arrived in November of 82 at Saratoga. It effectively was organized like this. It consisted of six subdivisions or companies. Of these, four of the companies were white companies. One of the companies was a black company, and the sixth company was racially integrated. So, it was uniquely that no other regiment did this in the whole war. It was uniquely interest segregated, but it had an integrated company within the interest segregation of the unit. Very strange. Now you asked about numbers. If we look at the percentage of non-whites in the Rhode Island regiment at this time, it was about 20% which is pretty substantial. Most regiments, and it varied regiment to regiment, of course, and it differed during the course of the war, etc. But the best we can we can view when it comes like to racial integration in the Continental Army broadly throughout the whole course of the war, you're looking at an average of somewhere between five and 8% of any regiment at any given time, on average, was nonwhite, and

in this case, it's almost 20%.

Devin:

One of the things we do as historians is attempt to uncover new information and new resources about the past that will lead to new discoveries and new interpretations of past events. This discovery and reinterpretation of the past is specifically true with relation to the Rhode Island Regiment itself, which was thought to have been involved at the Battle of Normanskill, but as Eric Schnitzer tells us, that could not be true.

Eric Schnitzer:

The Battle of Normanskill. So, I think we all know that there is within the town of Guilderland a wonderful blue and gold marker, a sign there, and it tells us that there was this battle of Norman skill, fought in August of 1777 and it involved the suppression of a Tory rising, which is true, and that it involved Schenectady militia, which is true. And I think it says 40 Rhode Island troops. Now, when I became aware of this sign years ago. I thought to myself, knowing how, in 1777 especially how the army was organized, where the various regiments were and everything, I thought there were no Rhode Island troops anywhere even close to Albany or the Normans kill or anything like that. So, there's no way that just couldn't be I looked into it in deep, did a deep dive in the military, you know, deployments and everything. And, of course, the two Rhode Island regiments, because we have to remember, there were two. They were downstate in the, you know, the Peekskill area. They were way down there. And it wouldn't be long before they would be ordered to join George Washington's army in, you know, to try to defend Philadelphia, ultimately. So, the regiments were down in Peekskill. There's no question about it. There was no detachment you can and the idea that you would have a detachment go from one department, i.e. the Hudson Highlands department, and traverse the boundary of the Northern department without the orders of the commander in chief to put down a dozen, you know, loyalists, is crazy. It's not a thing. And so, I looked into the primary source material, and it's very clear that the 40 Rhode Islanders were, in fact, 40 Massachusetts Continental Army soldiers. What had happened was the Schenectady County committee was informed of this gathering, and so what they wanted to do was form a body of Schenectady militia to put them down, but they didn't know if that would be enough, because reports were like they were in the hundreds. And so, we got to match their numbers. And so, the committee requested that the Continental Army Detachment in Schenectady augment their numbers for this little expedition, and so they called upon the senior Continental Army officer located in Schenectady at the time, a captain by the name of Abraham Childs. Now Abraham Childs was one of the eight captains commanding one of the eight companies of what was called Colonel James Wesson’s later known as the ninth Massachusetts Regiment. That regiment had its subdivisions, its companies, strewn throughout the Mohawk Valley at the time. This is in advance of the battles of Saratoga, when the regiment was consolidated and went up to ultimately fight in the battles of Saratoga, which it did. Child's company was in Schenectady. He was requested by the committee to have you know himself, lead a detachment of his company and helped quell this rising in what became the Battle of Normanskill. It's really an over glorified skirmish.

Lauren:

While at Saratoga, even though it was towards the tail end of the war, the Rhode Island Regiment was ordered to take part in the ill-fated Oswego expedition.

Eric Schnitzer:

So, in the beginning of 1783, I mean, the last year of the war. You know, things are expectedly winding down. You don't have the declaration of secession of arms yet, but that'll be a few months off. It came to the mind of Marinus Willett that we should mount an expedition against Fort Oswego. Fort Oswego in Oswego, New York, right at the outlet of Oswego, the river there into Lake Ontario. And the idea was that, well, there was a British base of operations there, and we ought to attack them in the winter when they least expect it, because it worked at Trenton. So, let's do it here in upstate New York. In 1783, they never made it. Their guides got them lost, and the snows, deep snows, freezing temperatures, they ran out of food.

All of these things hampered their progress to the degree that Marinus will it ordered the troops to be returned back. But it didn't end there, because, obviously, the regiment was based in Saratoga in the winter of 82-83 but then they were also based in Saratoga at the end of 83 when you have the beginning of the winter of 83-84, well, this is when things were winding down. The war was winding down. Half the regiment had been discharged in June, and so the cadre of somewhere around 150 plus soldiers left behind, officers and soldiers left behind in Saratoga were really left out on a limb by the state of Rhode Island for the rest of the year. The Congress and the state of Rhode Island barely even noticed them because, you know, it's the end of the war. Well, you know, the war is going to wind down. They'll be discharged soon. Why should we spend money to send them blankets or shoes, even though they don't have any many blankets, and many of them are already barefoot because they've run through their shoes, because their shoes are made of leather. And those things don't last long, you know?

And so, you had many, many soldiers at Saratoga suffering freezing conditions barefoot in December of 1783, because the state and the Continental Congress just wasn't supplying them. I gotta say, this is a running theme that you have throughout the whole war, from beginning to end, Congress and the states or colonies before them not readily or appropriately supplying the regiments under their auspices. This is a running theme. So, this is not like the Rhode Island regiment was targeted. And if I may also add, this was not a black and white issue, so to speak. This the you had white men and black men suffering at Saratoga because they had to reorganize themselves, because now you've just half the regiments gone. So, we gotta consolidate the regiment into a more manageable establishment. So, they decided to organize for the second half. The latter half of 1783, the Rhode Island regiment consisted of two companies, not six. They went from six to two companies, and those two companies, one was a white company. The other was a racially integrated company. And so, you had black men and white men still there, but the proportion was actually still of black men, and let's say nonwhite men, because it wasn't just black men. You also had some indigenous people of indigenous descent that were in the ranks of the Rhode Island regiment and other regiments too, not just the Rhode Island regiment, but regiments in New York, New York, New England and broadly other states also included indigenous people and their descendants as well. And it approached 25% in December of 1783 nearly a quarter of the Rhode Island regiment that was remaining in Saratoga were nonwhites, which is, I think if I'm not mistaken, I could be wrong. I don't think I am. I think it's the highest percentage seen by any singular Continental Army formation in the entire Revolutionary War. Insofar as racial composition.

Lauren:

Now Dr. Green mentioned that her research into the Frank brothers all started with her grandfather's Canadian flag. Let's find out the rest of that story.

Devin:

What about Ben Frank and maybe, maybe this will bring us back to your grandfather's Canadian flag. But what happened to Ben Frank, you made the connection.

Shirley L. Green:

So, Ben's story is, it's wow…it's an adventure tale, I think, and as we were trying to make the connection between the Canadian Franklin family and Ben Frank, it got to be very, very difficult. But there was a curator at a Nova Scotian museum who brought to our attention the muster role from a black loyalist who had migrated to Birchtown, Nova Scotia after the end of the war.

And they indicated that there was this one gentleman on one of the list who was the same age that Ben Frank would have been at that period in time. But this gentleman's name was Frankham, not Frank. Now Ben Frank, and all the records that I have where he would have been able to sign his name. No, he always marked with an X, so he was not literate enough to sign his name. So, if he is giving his name to an individual to write down, it might sound different than Frank. It may sound like Frank on, or he may have purposely said that his name was Frankham there is at the end of the war, Ben Frank winds up, I believe Ben Frank winds up in New York, with the rest of the loyalist as they're waiting to understand the outcome of the Paris Peace Treaty talks.

What is going to happen to all these individuals I mentioned earlier about Dunmore’s Proclamation, many enslaved blacks ran to the British lines because of that, including women and children, to gain their freedom at the end of the war, British officials in New York stipulated to General Washington that we are going to hold on to our promise to these individuals since they came to our side during the war, up to a certain time period, we are going to grant them their freedom. We will, however, compensate their former slave holder for their losses. How are they going to do that? Well, General guy Carlton, who was in charge of the British forces in New York, planning the evacuation of these loyalists, came up with an idea of compiling an inventory of the blacks who were behind British lines by a certain time period. And that book became known as The Book of Negroes.

There has been a mini-series on CBC, Canadian Broadcasting Company a few years ago based on a novel by Lawrence Hill. It was originally titled The Book of Negroes. But what all the blacks who were behind British lines had to do was present themselves to a commission that was formed by General Carlton and explain to who. To this commission, who they were, who that their former owner was, or if they were already free. And Ben Frank I believe, is listed in the Book of Negroes. And this is where the curator from the Nova Scotia Museum was pointing us to, I believe that he is listed in the Book of Negroes as Ben Frankham.

So, he gets on a ship with other loyalists, and black loyalists included, and they sail out of New York up to Nova Scotia, Canada. Ben Frank spends been, excuse me, Ben Frankham serves a period or stays a period of time at the black settlement of birch town, which is in the southern part of Nova Scotia. Birchtown at that point in time, became the largest free black settlement in the Americas. Ben spent a little bit of time there, and then he eventually migrated to the Annapolis region of Nova Scotia. It's on the western side of the peninsula across the Bay of Fundy from Maine, and he remarried. He remarried in to the family of another black loyalist, and he started to have children. He is easier to trace in Nova Scotia because of the record keeping for the loyalist cause, because loyalists and black loyalists were always petitioning the government for their land. This promise of land comes back into play, and black loyalists were constantly petitioning to get their fair share of land, which, for the most part, they did not receive. And because of that, about two thirds of them would leave Nova Scotia and settle in Sierra Leone and start the black settlement there in Freetown in Sierra Leone. Ben Frank wasn't one of them, and at this point in time, when he is among these other black loyalists who are petitioning for land, his name has changed again. He has now been Franklin, and that name stuck. And when we initially went to my grandfather's hometown, the Annapolis Historic Society has multiple binders of the genealogy of black loyalists that lived in that particular region. And when I initially the first research trip that I made up there, I was presented with the binder that had the Franklin family in there, and I found my grandfather's name towards the bottom of the list the family tree, and then pushed all the way back up, and the first name at the top of the Franklin genealogy page was Ben Franklin.

So that is the connection that goes back to my grandfather having Canadian flag in his dining room.

Devin:

One of the joys in speaking with Dr Shirley Green was the fact that, as she mentioned, she was a retired police lieutenant, on top of being a PhD in history, and as a historian, I've long heard and been told by teachers over the years that history is a lot like detective work. We're detectives of the past. So, I couldn't let this opportunity pass without asking Dr Green what she thought about historians being similar to detectives.

Shirley L. Green:

Yeah, yeah, I believe it did. You have to be persistent, right? And you have to be open minded and willing to look at all of the evidence that's out there to close a case, right, or to make a case that's going to be proven in court. So, you know, for my dissertation, it's, you know, the case I have to prove to the dissertation committee, and have to be able to articulate, articulate what your argument is and what your findings, what the results were of that investigation. So definitely, I think I looked, I took those skills that I learned as a supervisor of investigations and what I expected from the investigators that were assigned to me, what I expected them to do and show in their own investigative work. So, I looked at the research like that. It's, you know, solving a mystery.

Devin:

Thanks for listening to A New York Minute in History. This podcast is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G Pomeroy Foundation. Our producer is David Hopper, a big thanks to Dr Shirley Green and Eric Schnitzer for taking part. If you enjoyed this month's episode, make sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and share on social media to learn more about our guests and the show. Check us out at WAMCpodcasts.org

We're also on x and Instagram as @NYHistoryMinute.

Devin and Lauren:

I'm Devin Lander and I'm Lauren Roberts until next time…Excelsior!

Interviewees: William G. Pomeroy, entrepreneur, philanthropist and Foundation founder, and Bill Brower, Executive Director.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading:

For information on the Pomeroy Foundation’s grant programs and to apply for a New York State Pomeroy Foundation Historical Marker: https://www.wgpfoundation.org/history/nys-historic-markers/

For information about the Pomeroy Foundation's National Education Program: https://www.wgpfoundation.org/history/education/

New York State Museum: History of the State Marker program.

Teacher Resources:

Stop the Drive-Bys: A Teacher Makes the Case for Local Historical Markers, American Association for State and Local History.

Not Your Usual History Lesson: Writing Historical Markers, National Council of Teachers of English

Follow Along:

Devin: Welcome to a New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian,

Lauren: and I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. This month, instead of focusing on just one marker, we have the opportunity to introduce the new executive director for the Pomeroy Foundation, Bill Brower. We were lucky enough to sit down with both Bill Brower and Bill Pomeroy, the founder of the organization, and we got to learn more about what got them interested in markers in the first place, and how the foundation got started, and where they see themselves going in the future.

Devin: Okay, well, let's jump in, because I know everybody's busy, especially on your end, I'm sure. And, and I'm going to say “Mr.” So I'm not calling everybody “Bill,” but I can call everybody “Bill” if we want to, but, but anyway, if Bill, Bill Pomeroy, could just introduce yourself and just just tell the audience a little bit about who you are and how you came about to create the foundation.

Bill Pomeroy: Hi. My name is Bill Pomeroy, and I am the founder of the William G Pomeroy foundation back in 2005. I moved to the Syracuse area in back in 1974 after coming off of a two year Volkswagen camping trip through South America to explore history that I had never seen before. But with an RPI engineering degree and a Wharton MBA and four years of experience with IBM selling mainframe computers in Silicon Valley, I found the greatest opportunity right here in Syracuse. And so within 30 days of starting the job that I had achieved, I had thought I'd died and gone to heaven, I was finally doing something that was absolutely fun for me. One of the things that I wasn't too well prepared for, though, was office politics. And so after four years, I was fired, and so I had a lot of ideas, and by the time I got home, I had an idea for my own business, and that was back in 1978. And by 2016, I'd grown the business to over $100 million in revenue, but a couple things happened along the way.

I had a bad case of leukemia in 2004 which changed a lot of the direction of my life, which resulted in the formation of the foundation, because I thought that, wow, this is such an incredibly difficult to deal with disease. If I can survive this, and I didn't have much chance of doing that, according to the statistics at the time, but if I could, what can I do to help others that follow in my shoes? I had a stem cell transplant which saved my life, and I had a totally unrelated stranger who was a perfect match to me, donate his cells, and that enabled me to finally conquer this disease. I'm still in remission, and it's been nearly 20 years. It's been quite miraculous. So what we found out was. I thought it was quite normal to be able to find perfect matches, and it wasn't the case. It turns out that half the people at that time that were looking for a stem cell donor couldn't find one. And if I had fallen into that 50% I would not have been here today. And I said, Okay, what's wrong? What's going on here? So we thought we’d better start working on helping improve the probability of people finding a match on the registry. And so we concentrated on conducting bone marrow drives amongst the underrepresented populations. And over the life of that project, honestly, we've lost count from the computers at the National Marrow Donor Program, but over 30,000 people on the registry, and we've had over 300 donor matches made.

So a little… that was a little of the background, but I got interested in history, because that was my passion, and that's what brings me to the historic marker program. We kind of fell into that quite by accident, with a project with the Pompey Historic Society where we helped them refurbish all of their original New York State markers, which were totally unreadable. And the thing that surprised me was that once those were all refurbished and the Highway Department got them reinstalled, the pride and the celebrations that were going on in that community with their historic markers, actually, it just surprised me and said, Wow, these folks really like their markers, so we said, well, we'll buy a couple of more. And we had dedication the recipients had dedication ceremonies and, holy cow, it just reinforced in our minds what's what's really in people's hearts in their communities. And that then evolved into the historic marker program that we're involved in today, and our entire, most of our foundation now are dedicated to expanding that historic marker program, and our long term plan is to do it nationwide.

 Devin: That's great, 

Bill Pomeroy: I guess, I guess I gave you the long version of my introduction.

Devin: No, that's, that's great, and I think that's what we were looking for. And we'll, we'll circle back to your love of history in a minute and where that began, but I'd like Mr. Brower to be able to tell us um, introduce yourself to our audience, and tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up at the Pomeroy Foundation.

Bill Brower: Sure. Bill Pomeroy, thank you and Devin and Lauren, thanks for having us. We're appreciative to be here with you. So I'm going to rewind the tape back to the early 60s. So I grew up in Southern New Jersey, and I have these incredibly poignant memories of my father and my grandfather taking me into the Pine Barrens and visiting Historic Batsto Village. So if you think about Williamsburg, [or] Sturbridge, but on a much smaller scale. And I can't count how many times I was taken there, and they imbued in me the beginnings of a fascination with history. And I remember probably when I was eight years old, I got a gift of a board game called “Your America.” And it was a roll and move trivia game focused on American history. And it didn't take me long to start beating the adults in my family at this game, which kind of gave them a sense that I was into this. And then I started to get gifts of history books, and probably in fourth grade, someone gave me Johnny Tremain by Esther Forbes, and that just rocked my eight year old world. I just couldn't get enough, and it just - it was a romance. So I came up to New York state from Southern New Jersey to go to college. Was a pre med student, clearly, here I am with you. So that didn't go as well as some had hoped, but I was at a liberal arts college, and so I was encouraged to pursue what I loved, and I love history. So I majored in history, wrote my thesis on black athletes as potential catalysts for social change. I'll brag a little bit I won the Darling prize at Hamilton for having the highest cumulative average in US history. Courses… still didn't get me into med school, but it was a heck of a lot of fun to study.

And I had never been to Boston After falling in love with Paul Revere and Johnny Tremain and the Sons of Liberty and the Tea Party and all that history, and I moved to Boston and worked at the Perkins School for the Blind, which is another US institution that's full of history going back to the early 1800s; first, I worked with students who are deaf, blind, and then I started a career in institutional advancement, fundraising at Perkins, and have been in higher ed advancement for, you know, about 30, years, including moving back to New York State and working at my alma mater, and then I met Bill Pomeroy, and as they say, the rest is history. Three months in, so I'm learning so much about New York state history, and we do these marker meetings every Monday where we work with our professional historians, and they're the highlight of the week, right? It's just, it's just like going to school. And as you said before Devin, we continue to do a lot of markers in New York State. We also have programs all over the country, but that's - that's really my origin story, and I never in a million years thought I would have the opportunity to work at a place like the Pomeroy Foundation and do the kind of work we're doing.

Devin: Well, thank you for that. That's you know, your story of going to historic sites and being engrossed in history as a youth. I think all of us on this call can certainly relate to that. It set us on our path. But I think one of the most interesting things about what the Pomeroy Foundation does, among all its other great things, is really highlighting the importance of local history, and Mr. Pomeroy noted how the Foundation began and how it was kind of eye opening for you to realize how much people loved their markers. Let's circle back to Bill Pomeroy. How did you get the history bug and where did that kind of come from? You mentioned even going to South America to tour their historic assets. So just tell us a little bit about that story.

Bill Pomeroy: Well, there's a, there's a couple of highlights in my background that history really came forward on. I was raised in Binghamton, and my my dad was a manufacturer's representative, and he drove around Central New York, calling on customers. And I would go along with him on some of these trips. And he liked history, and he knew that I really did, because we would stop any place there was the sign and we would stop, and we would read it, we'd spend a few minutes, or we might spend a while, or we might go exploring, and it might even be a museum. So my dad really was pretty key in, in seeing that I was interested and making sure that, you know, I got a lot of stimulus on that. You know, then over the years, it was casual but, but probably the next big thing that woke me up was understanding my history education in high school, because later, and of course, often in engineering school, there might be a history professor someplace, but we never saw him. But you know, at the end of that education, my wife and I took a summer, almost four months and we drove all over Europe in a in a Renault 10 with the sleeping bags in a tent. Oh, it was really something. And just history was everywhere. But then coming back off to IBM in California, four years I really had that itch, and when I left IBM, I said, I don't really know what I want to do, but let's take a trip. So I bought a Volkswagen camper. We drove to South America, and what an eye opener that was to see the cultures, the ancient cultures and civilizations that were in Mexico, Central America, Peru. It was fascinating. I've got hundreds, 1000s of photographs from that trip.

And then, you know, at the end of that, I end up coming back, and as I said earlier, I got my dream job, and kind of put history to the side. But, you know, with the foundation and with us up and running with our “For Life” side, and then seeing what happened in Pompey and how those folks just loved their markers, all that came rushing back into my head, and I said, I see another mission here. This looks pretty good. So I think we can have fun here, and that's what we want to do. We always want to have fun.

Devin: I would like to talk a little bit about the marker program as it is now. And can you just tell us a little bit about some of the programs and maybe how that's evolved over time? 

Bill Brower: Sure, and you know, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna share with you and your listeners with with my fresh eyes, as new as I am at the foundation, but we have six signature marker programs and their grant programs, right? We want to remember - We want to remind people that we are making grants to organizations to celebrate their local history. So part of, part of what we want to say as we get into the detail and the color of some of these programs is we really want to follow the grantees and what their interest is in their local history, right? We're not in the business of telling them what they should be celebrating. Our historians work very closely with them, and as you and your listeners know, there is a focus on primary source historical research, right? So because of that, we know that our markers are the gold standard. Yes, if you see a Pomeroy marker, you know that what you're reading is historically accurate, period, right? So, so that's really important as we start to get into the detail. So we've talked about the New York State program. I think that's the one people are most familiar with. And we also do a Hometown Heritage Program, which is a national program. So if you think about exporting the New York State program to other states, that's the one that we use to do that. It commemorates, again, local history, people, places, events and things. Some of these markers now are getting the U.S. 250th badge as we approach our 250th anniversary. So if the subject matter is related to that period in our history, people can apply anytime for those markers, and we are going to be working hard to get the word out about that program around the country. Another one is our Hungry for History Program, which is really a heck of a lot of fun. I think the first marker was the salt potato here in Syracuse. And I think you may have done a segment on that. Yeah, we just had students down in Binghamton apply for and receive a marker for the Speidies sandwich down in the Southern Tier. And right now, we are working with Betty Haines and her students at Cleveland Hill Middle School in Cheektowaga. And you want to guess what they're working on in Cheektowaga, as far as hungry for history? It's a suburb of Buffalo.

Devin: Is it the Buffalo wing?

Bill Brower: It is the Buffalo chicken wing. Okay, so we've, we've got students through our educational program working on a Buffalo, Buffalo chicken wing marker. You know the Arnold Palmer, the drink Arnold Palmer's from La Trobe, Pennsylvania. So we're going to, they want to look at that. And they've, they've also talked with us about Johnny Appleseed, and that would fit in our probably fit in our Legends and Lore program, which is another really popular program that we do with 15 state partners. And those folks are representative of folklore societies in those states. So that program takes place primarily through those state partners and perhaps, you know, Bill Pomeroy wants to talk about the Historic Transportation program. I think that's one that we're really focusing on. It's another nationwide program. 

Bill Pomeroy: Oh, yeah, that that has been actually developed over quite a long period of time. Our first idea was with the Erie Canal, you know, coming right across the state, and then all the feeder canals that were built here. Why, let's have a marker that celebrates canals. And so after running this program for five or six or seven years, we realize that we're really talking about transportation here, so let's just take that program and expand it into Historic Transportation, so that includes now canals and bridges, tunnels and railroads and aircraft, and there are a lot of railroad buffs we're getting - and covered bridge buffs. So we're getting covered bridges, we're getting railroad trestles, we're getting all kinds of really interesting stuff. It's a fun program.

Lauren: Bill you mentioned that you always want to have fun while we're learning about history, and I think that your Legends and Lore marker program really is a great opportunity to look into stories that have been handed down through a community. And maybe there are those instances where you might not be able to use a primary source to talk about something, but there's a reason that these stories have been handed down and people in the communities feel strongly about them. I'm thinking in particular - Devin several years ago, we did an episode about Natty Bumppo, who is a character in the Leatherstocking Tales by James Fenimore Cooper. And there are two different communities in New York that claim that someone from their community was the inspiration for Natty Bumppo and the Pomeroy Foundation funded both markers. It's a great friendly competition to talk about their history and to talk about their claims. It's fun, and I think that keeping those types of stories alive, along with the primary source backed history, which is very important, but it does give people an opportunity to tell those stories that don't necessarily have that background. So I just wanted to mention that it's a little bit of a different program, and it's a lot of fun. Some of my favorite markers that I've put up in Saratoga County are actually the legends and lore markers, including one that talks about a gentleman who went to a seance and the spirit of Benjamin Franklin told him where to drill for a mineral spring in Ballston sSpa that would have the power to heal the nation after the Civil War. I mean, it's a great story. We have a great marker. People are really interested in that one, but so much fun the and this, it still tells you about the history, especially, you know, in this case, our community with the mineral springs, it talks about spiritualism, you know, after the Civil War, so we're still talking about history, but we're using an individual story that is entertaining to to open that door for people to learn more. 

Bill Pomeroy: And it's also interesting, because you're pointing out an example of how our marker programs have evolved, and how we have learned and gotten ideas from our applicants. And it was they were making an application for New York state historical markers. And hey, this isn't primary source evidence here, you're talking about some kind of a story, and we would have to turn them down. Well, after turning a couple of them down, we thought, gee, those are great stories. Can't we figure out a way to celebrate those stories for these communities? And then we were sitting in the conference room, we designed a Legends and Lore marker with the indicia at the top and the logo and everything, and we're off and running and having fun, then that's what's going to happen to us over the next 10 years. You know, certainly the historic markers I expect to be around, but I also expect that there'll be a lot of other ways, and as you suggest, you know, technology will probably be a big part of that and and we want to be visible to the community, so that the community can see it, you know. So it's, it's been, it's been a nice run, you know, particularly there with the Legends and Lore.

Bill Brower: It's the other thing, if we have a couple more minutes, I just like to talk a little bit more about the education program. It's a really wonderful opportunity for high school teachers to get their students interested in local history through a grant application. So if you think about it's a three week curriculum. Students come up with the idea. They do the primary source research, they do the grant application. They receive the grant, they purchase the marker, they organize for it to be installed. They organize the dedication ceremony. Get local press to come. Often, the students are the ones who are speaking at those ceremonies. So it's when you think about all the experience that a high school student could get in bringing local history to life for themselves and their communities. It's a wonderful program, and I just think the more teachers who know about this, the better, because, you know, part of the mission is, as Bill Pomeroy said, to have fun with this. And if young people have fun with history when they're in high school and they don't see it as a chore, they're going to be interested in history as adults, and they're going to be engaged in their community as adults. So that's an important program that we offer as well.

Devin: Since we've been doing this podcast in partnership with the Pomeroy Foundation. And really since I've been New York State historian and been involved directly with not only the Pomeroy markers, but also with the State Education Department markers that were erected beginning in the 1920s and really becoming more in tune to how that program came about - I see these markers really as an opportunity to essentially be a portal to local history, which then can be expanded into statewide history, national history. Some of these stories are international in scope, and we know that these markers are limited in the amount of information that they can get across, but what they do is provide that spark, that Bill Pomeroy talked about, that spark to want to go and learn more, and that's really the point. I think of this whole podcast as well. We talk about a topic for about 30 minutes, but really what we are hopeful, and that's why we put resources on our web page and further reading and links, is to really spur on that that interest and expand it and and maybe light that spark for other people who want to learn more about their local history. To me, that's what's important about these markers, and that's what makes the work of the Pomeroy Foundation so vital to New York's history and so vital to the national history. 

Lauren: Yeah, I've been a county historian for the past, yikes, 15 years, and I was a municipal historian for a small town before that, and these markers are a really important tool in your toolkit as a municipal historian, to give the people in your community a way to be proud of their local history. This is an actual deliverable that is seen by the public, that people take pride in, they can point to, especially, you know, we talked about the education programs they offer for the kids in the schools that are doing the research, and then they get to drive down the street with their parents or their grandparents and know that they had a part in contributing to that marker and to learning more about the history of their community. I think that's something really special. And without the Pomeroy foundation, these markers are not attainable for most municipal historians and small historical societies because of the expense of it. So they really are the reason that communities and historians and historical societies are able to keep putting these markers up and to keep this research going. And I think the whole municipal historical community in New York State really owes the Pomeroy Foundation a debt of gratitude for keeping these programs going.

Devin: Since 2005 the Pomeroy Foundation has funded over 2,600 grants for historic markers nationwide. Each grant covers the entire cost of the marker, pole, and shipping. To learn more about the foundation and their historical marker grant programs such as Hungry for History, Legends and Lore, and Historic Transportation, please visit their website at WGPfoundation.org, that's WGPfoundation.org

Marker of Focus: War of 1812, Village of Sackets Harbor, Jefferson County.

Interviewees: Constance Barrone, Site Manage, Sackets Harbor Battlefield State Historic Site and Dr. Harvey J. Strum, Professor of History and Political Science at Russell Sage College.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Video: History Happened Here, William G. Pomeroy Foundation https://youtu.be/3Izr1CpHreU

Further Reading:

Harvey J. Strum, “New York City and the War of 1812,” New York History Review, 2024.

Harvey J. Strum, “New York Militia and Opposition to the War of 1812,” New York History, 2020.

“Special Issue on the War of 1812,” New York History, 2013.

Alan Taylor, The Civil War of 1812: American Citizens, British Subjects, Irish Rebels and Indian Allies, 2011.

Richard V. Barbuto, New York’s War of 1812: Politics, Society and Combat, 2021.

Teaching Resources:

The War of 1812, PBS Learning Media.

Battles of the War of 1812 Lesson Plans, American Battlefield Trust.

Follow Along

Devin Lander: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian.

Lauren Roberts: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On this episode, we're talking about a marker located in Jefferson County on the eastern shores of Lake Ontario. The address is 448 Ontario Street in the village of Sackets Harbor, and the text reads: War of 1812. At daybreak on Saturday May 29, 1813, British forces waded ashore from Horse Island and engaged American forces defending the harbor. William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2013.

So of course, here we're talking about the War of 1812 and I'm guessing that many of our listeners might have some remembrances about the War of 1812. I know there's a few things that stick out in my head, such as, that's the war that gave us the Star Spangled Banner, and also the role that Dolly Madison played in saving the portrait of George Washington from the White House as the British burn the White House and the Capitol in Washington, DC. But I'm going to guess that most people probably can't remember any of the battles or the premise. So Devin, why don't you give us a quick summary so that we can refresh our memories on the War of 1812?

Devin: So the first thing we have to remember about the War of 1812 is that at that point, the United States was less than 30 years old. So it was really a matchup between a very young nation with a very small Navy and a small armory, versus one of the world's superpowers, Great Britain. Great Britain was embroiled in a world war, essentially, with France at the time, the Napoleonic Wars. 

Lauren: You mean another one? 

Devin: Another one, exactly. They can't help themselves during the 18th and 19th century, seemingly. But the War of 1812 was kind of an offshoot of this larger conflict, and the British Royal Navy, which was controlling - or attempting to control - the world's oceans at the time, began to encroach upon the United States maritime rights by impressing sailors to become part of the Royal Navy, and they justified this - feloniously - by suggesting that they were impressing only citizens of Great Britain, when in fact, most of the people that they were impressing the sailors on merchant vessels were actually American citizens, and some of the estimates for how many sailors are between 6,000 and 9,000. The British also took up to - and perhaps more - than four hundred American merchant ships in an effort to stop trade between the United States and France. And that's really the impetus behind the declaration of war from the United States and the President, James Madison and Congress, against Great Britain on June 18, 1812.

New York played a major role in the War of 1812 mostly because it shared a border with Canada. And one of the strategies early on for the American side was not to challenge Great Britain at sea. At the beginning of the War of 1812 the United States Navy had 16 warships. Great Britain had over 500, so that would have been a bloodbath. So instead of that, they went after Canada, which at the time was controlled by the British. So, much of the offenses that the United States made in the War of 1812, at least, initially, were launched from New York and were launched across the Canadian border and as an attempt to - not necessarily take Canada over, although some historians have argued that - but more of an attempt to force Great Britain to acknowledge the demands of the United States. 

There were several major battles that took place in New York state during the War of 1812 and we're going to talk more about the Battle of Sackets Harbor and its importance, but one of the most important battles of the entire war was the Battle of Plattsburgh, which is also known as the Battle of Lake Champlain, which happened in September of 1814, and really was a victory for the small American Navy who turned back the British warships and their invasion of Lake Champlain at the Battle of Plattsburgh, and really forced the British out of New York and away from that part of North America for the rest of the war. Now, the war was taking place in other parts, for example, the British had taken over Washington, DC and burned it. There was a major battle in Baltimore that gave us the Star Spangled Banner from Fort McHenry, and, of course, the Battle of New Orleans, which was led by at the time, General Andrew Jackson, who would go on to become president, based on the fame that he encountered as the victorious general the Battle of New Orleans. So there was a lot going on. It wasn't just happening in New York. But again, New York played a strategic role because of its border with Canada and also the fact that it remained the largest port in the United States, New York City. So New York City was a target.  As a result of this, New York is really a center of the story of the War of 1812. 

So not only was the Battle of Plattsburgh one of the most important battles of the war, but New York actually plays host to the first battle of the War of 1812 and that's also known as the first battle of Sackets Harbor, which took place on July 19, 1812 - just over a month after the two countries declared war on each other. 

Lauren: For more information about Sackets Harbor, we spoke with Constance Barone, the site manager, Sackets Harbor, Battlefield State Historic Site. A note about the audio quality here. We apologize for the distortion, and we did everything we could to fix it. As a reminder, there is a transcript on the website.

Constance: So my name is Connie Barrone, and I'm the site manager at the Sackets Harbor battlefield State Historic Site. Sackets harbor is my hometown. My parents, my grandparents, on both sides of the family, lived here. And our state historic site is only one of about, well 30 or so in New York State, in state parks. Our site focuses on education and preservation, and I think we're probably most well known for our War of 1812 history, although our story continues through today, of course.

Constance: So, the Sackets Harbor was settled around 1801, 1802, by two gentlemen, Augustine Sackett and Elijah Camp, and they looked at this as a most perfect harbor. So it was pretty obvious to the US military, when the War of 1812 began that here in the northern frontier, that Sackets was going to be the center for the army, of the Navy and the Marines, because we're also about 30 miles across Lake Ontario, from Kingston and with the military base there, then the creation of the military base here at Sackets Harbor, both of these communities were competing with control of Lake Ontario and the access to the St Lawrence River, and both communities became very heavily involved with shipbuilding.

Devin: So the first battle of Sackets Harbor was a brief battle; the British firing upon the United States ship, the Oneida, and then an attempt by British forces to essentially storm Sackets harbor and capture the shipbuilding facility there, and they were repelled by the garrison that was there, but the small garrison had a 32 pound cannon, which they were successful in using to repel the British invaders as they attempted to take over the shipbuilding facility, and as a result, they knew that they were a target. So they built up the garrison. They continued the shipbuilding, and they attempted to expedite how quickly they could build these ships again to compete with the British. And they enforced the area with a larger garrison in preparation for what would essentially be the second battle of Sackets Harbor.

Lauren: So the Second Battle of Sackets Harbor took place at the end of May in 1813. At that point in the war, there was kind of a stalemate, and the British decided to attack Sackets Harbor to try to eliminate all of the shipbuilding and take away the military supplies that had been accumulating there. And they knew at the time many of the soldiers were away attacking York, so they saw a weakness and decided to take advantage of it.

Constance: Our troops had left Sackets Harbor to go to the other end of the lake. They were attacking York, which is today Toronto, and so everybody was there. And then the Crown forces in Kingston said, “There's nobody over at Sackets. Let's go attack Sackets,” which they did. So a little defense. The battle was in the early morning, May 29 1813, it was about three hours. The Crown forces, opposing forces, were trying to recapture their supplies that had been captured at York and brought to Sackets. They were also trying to destroy the shipbuilding. So the battle went back and forth, back and forth. It was pretty much a draw, although we like to say that this was our victory, because we did not become - we were not captured and taken off by the Crown forces. But when we thought we were losing the battle, we set fire to all those supplies, so we pretty much destroyed all the supplies ourselves. 

So because of that second battle, the National Park Service recognizes Sackets Harbor as one of the top two or three sites of the War of 1812 in the country, based on the outcome of the battle, but also the continual threat to battlegrounds, the preservation of battlegrounds, and that, of course, is an ongoing legacy, and we're doing actually rather well in the preservation of battleground.

Lauren Roberts : That battle really helped to cement the fact that Sackets Harbor was a stronghold of the Americans, and that they were going to be able to hold on to their harbor, and it would remain a significant military establishment for many years, not even just through the War of 1812 but up until World War II. 

In talking about the War of 1812 it's important to remember there were essentially two theaters that were being fought in North America. The first one is in New York with Sackets Harbor. But the fact that the Canadian border was there and access to the Great Lakes was what made New York such an important front. The other front was in the south, where the British were supplying indigenous people with weapons and supplies to fight back against the United States citizens that were trying to push for westward expansion and continued to take over indigenous lands.

Devin: One of the things we should realize when we're talking about the War of 1812 is - very similar to the American Revolution - there was an indigenous presence within these conflicts. There were still indigenous people allied with the British. There were indigenous people allied with the Americans, and they were very much involved in several of these battles throughout New York and elsewhere. Indigenous people, as noted, were involved in the Southern Campaign. They were very much players in the War of 1812 as they were in the American Revolution. And a similar result happened for indigenous peoples, where they were ultimately forced from their lands, something that had begun very early in colonial times in New England and elsewhere, continued through the American Revolution, certainly in New York, and also continued after the War of 1812, and more. And more and more non-Indigenous people moved into traditional indigenous territory, something that would play out through the rest of the 19th century. 

One of the main issues of the War of 1812 was that there was a major anti-war movement that was actually led by the Federalist party. And part of the reason that there was this anti-war movement was the restriction on trade in New York City, which caused economic hardship for many New Yorkers, and the fact that, essentially, the United States was not really well prepared for the war. So the militia in New York and elsewhere, and even the regular army weren't well supplied. So as a result of that, there were mass desertions in Militia outfits. But there was also a movement to remedy this situation, led by regular, average citizens and civic organizations to kind of step into that role of supplying the military and the militia. So Lauren, you as Saratoga County Historian, have discovered a letter that directly speaks to this issue and also shows that even in places where there wasn't necessarily a battle happening, there was still an engaged citizenry who was very much behind the war effort.

Lauren: Yes, I found in the collection of the county Historian's Office a transcription of a letter written by a gentleman named Howell Gardner, and he was a resident of the town of Greenfield in Saratoga County. And this letter is written to a Mr. Silas Adams on October 22 of 1812 so this is going into the first winter season during the war. And this is the letter: 

Dear Sir, You have probably heard that Colonel Prior has sent down to the people that some of his men are much in want of winter clothing. Elder Finch, their chaplain, is now down on the same business and has engaged wagons to take on such articles of clothing as people may furnish. Messengers are sent to the different towns of this county to make collections. I shall attend myself and some others in this town and neighborhood, and I wish that you and any other that will do it would go about Milton for the same purpose. They want woolen shirts, stockings, trousers, mittens, shoes and any kind of winter dress to make them comfortable, old garments past worn or anything that will keep a soldier warm. One month, I would receive, and if any person wishes to send to any particular person, roll them up and sew on a billet of their name. Judge child is going directly to Sackets Harbor. Starts on Tuesday next, the articles must be to his house by Monday night, and he will see them safe there. -Howell Gardner

This is a direct appeal to the people of Saratoga County for their local militia that had been sent to Sackets Harbor that were looking for warm clothing at the end of October, as it's getting colder and they know that they're in need of supplies, so they had put out a call to the residents of the county to collect these type of supplies and send them up to Sackets Harbor.

Devin: So as we noted, there were shortages for militia soldiers as well as regular military which led to an anti-war sentiment. There was also a political anti-war sentiment based on the fact that the two major parties in the United States were in conflict with each other, and this would be the Democratic Republican Party, which was co-founded by President James Madison, who was president at the time, and the Federalist Party, which opposed Madison and opposed the democratic Republicans and wanted power on its own, and therefore was often the anti-war party. So beyond even the conflict between the two parties at the national level, there was another layer of complexity in New York State. To learn more about the political side of the War of 1812 and how that played out in New York, we spoke with Harvey Strum, Professor of History at Russell Sage College.

Harvey Strum: My name is Harvey Strom, I am a faculty member for the last 38 years at Russell Sage College, I teach history, political science and film history. I have been working on the issues related to the War of 1812 for the last 50 years.

New York entered the War of 1812 bitterly divided. First of all, in the April elections, the state elections that occurred before the war was declared in June, the Federalists picked up 20 seats in the New York State Assembly. Won three New York Senate seats, even future President Martin Van Buren had a hard time just barely winning his seat in the New York State Senate because of opposition to the idea of going to war and because Congress, at the request of President Madison, imposed a 90 day embargo. And that issue of an embargo directly affected a lot of people in New York who switched parties temporarily and voted for the Federalists. 

The other issue was the Republicans. There were several different factions of Republicans in 1812; two factions had real reservations about the war, the Clintonians, led by DeWitt Clinton. But also there had been the Robert Livingston Morgan Lewis faction, and the people in that faction thought the war was a mistake. It was stupid. We were unprepared for it, and it would help the Federalists. The people who supported were Governor Daniel Tompkins. 

And also, there was a faction in New York City called the Martling Men, because they met at the tavern of Abraham Martling. Later on, they built their own place that opened up in 1812 called Tammany Hall. They'll later be called Tammany Hall. And so they became an anti Clinton, pro- Madison faction in New York City. And then, of course, in 1812 just as the war is about to begin, DeWitt Clinton has ambitions to run for president. And so that's a further division that splits everything up in New York politics. And so that's the chaos in New York politics at the start of the war.

Devin: So what happens? Does any of this settle down during the war? Does the war plan in any kind of unifying role, or is it, as you noted, when we come out of the war, there's still great divisions?

Harvey Strum: There'll be a brief period in 1814 of some degree of unification, but a brief period, the war is the issue. New York State, in December of 1812 will end up sending the largest anti-war delegation to Congress of any state. And so this was the peak of anti-war sentiment in New York. What will change opinion briefly is in December of 1813 and January of 1814 the British burn Buffalo, burn Lewiston, basically the whole Niagara Frontier, 12,000 New Yorkers are refugees. This will lead to, throughout the state, people raising money for the refugees. In Albany, the state legislature will pass some money for the refugees in New York City, there will be voluntary efforts, in fact, there will be a special meeting at the only synagogue in New York State in early 1813 trying to raise money for the victims of the attacks by the British. And so there's a brief period of essentially support. And what happens is, in April of 1814, in the Assembly elections, it's the landslide for the pro-war Republicans. So it looks like there's a movement towards support for the war, but it won't play out along the militia, and that support will only less for a time period, the support will reappear in August of 1814 because of the British attack on Washington and in Baltimore, the assumption is the British are coming in New York. 

And so Federalists and Republicans in New York City joined together to create a defense committee and literally 100 Columbia College students are picking up picks and shovels to build fortifications around New York, lawyers, merchants and every ethnic group. You've got 500 Englishmen. You have 1000 Irishmen, 1000 African Americans. And even part of Tammany Hall, where one of the Tammany Hall leaders provides free liquor for 1000 Tammany Hall Braves to work on the fortifications around New York City. So there's a brief period again, in the summer of 1814 because of fear: the British are coming.

 In the end, the British decided to negotiate an end to the war. The Treaty of Ghent - and actually the most famous battle was fought two, two weeks after the war had ended, the battle at New Orleans, which gave us a presidential candidate, Andy Jackson, although the peace treaty of the War of 1812, Main issues: impressment was never mentioned. The British attacks on American shipping: not mentioned. The British gave back whatever territory they controlled, and we gave back the small amount of territory we controlled on the other side of the Niagara River, opposite Buffalo. And so essentially, the wars ended the way it started. No territorial changes, the conditions that produced the war. The reason for Madison's asking for a declaration of war: forgotten about. 

One of the consequences of the war is widespread smuggling, and one of the consequences is that trade, which had tended to be all directed in New York City, now became split and northern New York, they began to essentially do their trade down the St Lawrence to Montreal. So Montreal benefits from - internationally - from the War of 1812.

Another consequence is in New York City: widespread poverty, and actually supporting people in that winter is the largest item on the municipal budget. And this problem of the impact, both on the people and on the trade, New York City does not recover from the impact of the War of 1812 until 1825. Now, impact nationally? It kills the Federalists, and because of that victory in Jackson, Americans can portray the War of 1812 as an American victory, which it wasn't. It was a stalemate. There's a brief period of increased American nationalism across the country that will only last for five years, because by 1820 the sectionalism over slavery reappears. 

Internationally, the British found that they failed twice against the Americans. One time they lose American Revolution the second time, the stalemate, and it will lead, actually, to an improvement, ironically, of America's relations with Great Britain after the War of 1812 ironically,

Lauren Roberts: The War of 1812 was a risk for America because they were such a young country. They didn't have a large standing army. They weren't prepared for a large military fight, but you know, in diplomatic matters, they needed to show that they were strong enough to stand on their own. And so even though this war is thought of as the Forgotten War, as scholars look back and do more research and bring new perspectives to it. We learn more about it and how important it actually was, especially in New York State, in establishing ourselves as a sovereign nation that was able to defend itself and become players in diplomatic strategy.

Harvey Strum: It was the second American Revolution. That's how the Republicans saw it from the very beginning. But objectively, it was - the rhetoric of the war paralleled some of the rhetoric from the revolution. And they kept talking about the revolution, that this is, in effect, a second American Revolution against the British

Markers of Focus: Hungry for History

Interviewees: Elizabeth Jakubowski, Senior Librarian, New York State Library.

You can follow the State Library and learn more about their Tasting History project at: Facebook, Instagram – @nyslibrary and X (formerly Twitter) – @NYSLibrary

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Featured Image: Salt Potatoes Hungry for History Marker near Onandaga Lake.

Further reading:

Jennifer Jensen Wallach, How America Eats: A Social History of U.S. Food, 2013.

Michelle Moon, Interpreting Food at Museums and Historic Sites, 2016.

Libby O’Connell, The American Plate: A Culinary History in 100 Bites, 2015.

Annie Hauck-Lawson, Gastropolis: Food and New York City, 2009.

Amelia Simmons, American cookery: or, The art of dressing viands, fish, poultry and vegetables, and the best modes of making puff-pastes, pies, tarts, puddings, custards and preserves, and all kinds of cakes, from the imperial plumb to plain cake. Adapted to this country, and all grades of life,1796.

Teaching resources:

John Rosinbum, “Teaching with Food History: Digital Collections, Activities and Resources,” American Historical Association.

Future Farmers of America Teacher Resources.

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. Today, instead of focusing on just a single marker, we're going to focus on a program, one of the many, offered by the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. And this program is called Hungry for History. This is a rolling grant program, so applications are accepted all the time, and the focus of this is to celebrate America's food history by telling the stories of local and regional food specialties across the United States. The program is designed to commemorate significant food dishes created prior to 1970 in the role they play in defining American culture and forging community identity. Hungry for History is intended to help communities nationwide put the spotlight on their renowned, locally and regionally created food dishes with historic roadside markers. 

All right, in order to get started, Devin, I'm going to give you a pop quiz. 

Devin: Okay!

Lauren: There are six of these signs, and I want to know if you have had any of these six types of food. Are you ready? 

Devin: I'm ready. 

Lauren: Okay, salt potatoes,

Devin:  Absolutely. I grew up in Western New York,

Lauren: Michigan hot dog.

Devin: That's a beloved favorite. I did my undergraduate studies at Plattsburgh, and the marker for that is located in Plattsburgh. So yes, I have had my share of Michigans. 

Lauren: Chocolate jumbles. 

Devin: So that's one that I have no idea what it is, and I had to actually look that one up and see pictures of it. I may have had one, but I have no memory of that name.

Lauren: Okay. How about Spiedies?  

Devin: Yes, and I make my own Spiedies using speedy sauce that I buy at Hannaford.

Lauren: I'm impressed. All right, number five, barbecue chicken - and barbecued chicken in the sense of this sign denotes the gentleman who was able to innovate the way that large quantities of barbecued chicken could be cooked over time without charring. So for festivals and fundraisers and things like that,

Devin: I have definitely had that at festivals and fundraisers around New York. And I've also had Brooks House of Barbecue in Oneonta, which is wonderful, and also cooks in that style,

Lauren: Okay, and last, but not least, all the way out to Buffalo: beef on weck.

Devin: That's another one from my childhood, growing up in western New York that we would have frequently. In fact, one of my cousins at his wedding, that was the main dish for his reception was beef on weck, and it was delightful. 

Lauren: Wow,so you did really well, five out of six. I'm impressed. I'm only at about 50% here I've never had,

Devin: Let's ask you, then which ones have you had? 

Lauren: Okay, So I have had barbecue chicken, of course, chocolate jumbles and salt potatoes, but I have never had Spiedies, beef on weck or a Michigan Hot Dog. I know! 

Devin: We'll have to do something about that.

Lauren: So in talking about these types of food, most of us, even if we haven't tried them, have heard of these. And interestingly, they are peppered around the state; beef on weck is from the Buffalo area, the barbecue chicken sign is out in the Finger Lakes area near Cayuga Lake. Spiedies are from Binghamton, Chocolate jumbles from Schoharie County. Salt potatoes, of course, from the Syracuse area. And as Devin mentioned, the Michigan from Plattsburgh. These are all great examples of communities that are erecting signs because they're proud of their culinary history and thinking about food ways and culinary history in a larger context. Why is it important that we're recognizing where these regional foods are coming from, and why is it so important to our historical memory?

Devin: Well, those are great questions, and I think what we've seen in the last few decades here has been an increase in awareness of regional cuisines and thinking about things like family history and cultural and social history. You know, cuisine and cooking really can shed a light on a variety of topics related to that, from immigration, regional identity is a big part of this cultural identity as different communities immigrated to the United States and then moved around within what is now the United States, and the interaction between cultures, going back to the very earliest immigration of Europeans and contact between Europeans and indigenous people in this country, it's just a variety of things that can be drilled down into through the field of culinary or foodways history,

Lauren: One of the other pieces of the puzzle is family history. I think a lot of us have memories, either growing up or in our own families, of spending time in the kitchen with our relatives or friends, and there were certain recipes that were always a part of family gatherings. I'm pretty sure we can all think back to some sort of family gathering, whether it's a picnic or a block party or maybe a religious gathering. And there's a certain recipe that you think of that was always there. Maybe it's on Thanksgiving, and there's always somebody's pie that you had. And so the thought of that specific kind of pie brings you back to memories of holidays, family gatherings, being in a certain place. But I think food is so connected to memory, because we all have to eat, and we all have traditions, things that we like, things that we don't like, and things that we are brought up with, raised with, that become part of our family history.

Devin: So one of the things that's been very exciting over the last few decades, with the increased interest in culinary and food history has been an explosion, really, of interpretation happening at historic sites, museums, libraries, archives that really investigate the methods of cooking In the past but also interpret how things were prioritized, what ingredients were used, and what does that tell us about different cultures, cultural assimilation, how cultures interact with each other and have interacted and shared resources over time. And one of those cultural organizations that is doing this work is the New York State Library, and we sat down with Elizabeth Jakubowski, who is a senior librarian at the State Library and is leading an initiative there and a program called Tasting History. 

Devin: How's it going? 

Elizabeth: Morning!

Lauren:  Morning. So it just so happened we had a tornado a couple weeks ago, and my neighbor is having all the tree work done right now. So it's very loud here. They're taking down all of the half broken trees so… but thank you very much for doing this. 

Elizabeth Jakubowski: Thanks you for having me. I appreciate it. 

So hi, I'm Elizabeth Jakubowski. I'm a senior librarian in the New York State Library's Manuscripts and Special Collections unit. Primarily, I help process and describe collections. I also answer reference questions and assist researchers who want to use our materials. I've been at the State Library for about five and a half years now. Before that, I worked in public libraries, both in the capital region and out in Rochester, New York. I just want to point out that I am not a chef or a food historian. I'm a librarian who loves history and historical recipes, and I'm really lucky to work with other people who share those same interests. 

So it was back in 2021 I was in our Rare Books room to retrieve some materials, and I spotted these two books which looked interesting. They were Mary Elizabeth's Wartime Recipes and Amelia Dodger’s Liberty Recipes. I was flipping through them, and both books featured sugarless recipes and other sort of substitution recipes based on their titles. I thought they were from World War Two, because I think of that war when I think of wartime cooking. But then I noticed that both of these were published in 1918 so I dove into the history of the books. I really wanted to know more about who these women were and where these books had come from. And as I did that, I started to share my enthusiasm with my colleagues, Matt, who is a fellow librarian in manuscripts, and Jamie, who's an archivist in the state state archives, were both interested in the cookbooks too. So we decided that each of us would choose a recipe, make it at home, and then bring it in so we could all try it together. We wanted to taste the recipes instead of just reading about them. 

I brought in the first recipe. It was called a stuffed peach salad. Basically it was half of a peeled and pitted peach stuffed with a cottage cheese and salted pecan mixture that you sprinkle with some paprika and top with a little vinaigrette dressing. It was good. It was a little mushy. We had a really good time trying it. There were lots of leftovers, because I always make too much food. I'm really glad it worked out that way, though, because two more colleagues joined in, based on our excitement and offers of slightly strange snacks. I'm on the library social media team, and with everybody agreeing, I decided that we could share the cookbooks we used the recipes and our end results with a wider audience. We thought it would just be fun to share using our collections in a different way. 

We've covered four different time periods in total, so I've already talked about World War One, which was our first era. Those cookbooks came from the State Library's rare book collection, which is in my unit: manuscripts. We definitely saw the need for substituting in different foods. The stuffed peach salad I mentioned; the recipe specifically said, “Don't use cream cheese for this. It's needed for the soldiers.” And when they said sugarless recipes, they meant white sugar, so brown sugar, honey and other kinds of sugar substitutes were being pushed. I don't think a lot of us realized that was going on in World War One. So that was very interesting to learn for the next era we did the 1930s those recipes came from the New York State Archives collections. It was a series called the Federal Writers, project directors, publication working files. Doesn't sound like we'd have that much in it, but it included a bunch of projects that were undertaken at the state and local levels. Research material was collected in preparation for publishing Travel and Tourism guides to New York State and local communities. So there are records relating to the state Almanac and the state encyclopedia for the 1930s. It was interesting because it wasn't a cookbook. It was average folks being asked what recipes they're using. So they sort of ranged in a gamut. Most of what we learned in that series was that there was a lot going on throughout New York State in terms of food culture. There really wasn't an overarching theme. Mostly it was the techniques in the recipes, the language being used. Obviously, ovens back then didn't have the thermometers and other regulators that we have now, so there was a bit of guesswork as to what a “hot oven” meant, or a “fast oven.” We learned a lot. 

The third era we did was the 1950s. I chose four books from the State Library's Main Collection for that, all four books were published in the 50s, and all four focused on various food trends in that era, so things like convenience food, help for the hostess and early celebrity chefs were all sort of represented by those choices. What we learned about in the 1950s was: Jello. Jello was a very prevalent ingredient. I think we had three or four recipes that involved jello in some way. It was interesting, though. One of the recipes that was made was called a cucumber salad mold, which I didn't think was going to taste very good, and it ended up being very summery and light and not too bad. It started with lime jello, and you added vinegar, horseradish, onions and cucumbers, and the person who made it, the colleague who made it, insisted that we were all going to love it, and he was right. It really wasn't bad.

Devin: That's interesting. I think I knew I'd seen some of the ads and recipes from that era that highlighted the prevalent use of jello, which, you know, is good for us, with jello being a New York State invention, and having the jello Museum in New York State, that's that makes sense for us, I guess. 

Elizabeth: Yeah, I'veactually been to the jello museum when I was living in Rochester. It was fabulous. 

So our most challenging era was the 18th century. We used American Cookery by Amelia Simmons. American Cookery was the first cookbook published in America by an American for an American audience, manuscripts and special collections. Has a second edition, which was published in Albany in 1796 that was very challenging, because recipes of that time assumed knowledge. They assumed you knew certain things, techniques. They were very, very short. In fact, one of the recipes, a cranberry tart, said to “season until grateful.” Still not sure what that means. 

Devin: Interesting. 

Elizabeth: It was very interesting. It was also interesting to see some early American recipes represented there. You could do a whole traditional Thanksgiving meal based on recipes in that book. There was a turkey to roast stuffing. There was even - she calls it a pompkin pudding, but it was truly a pumpkin pie. It was just sweetened with molasses instead of sugar, but everything else was basically the same. So it was very cool to sort of dive into that. 

At the State Library, we really do have a wide range of cookbooks, recipe books, but we also have other sources that have recipes, including magazines. We have ladies magazines that usually feature recipes and newspapers, so we have plenty of source material. When I was in public libraries, we had those local recipe books, like you said, church groups or civic societies coming together and producing those cookbooks. And I love the local recipes like you said. It does reflect the area and the time period in which they were created. So it's pretty awesome. So my favorite recipe book, in terms of usefulness, the 1950s started to have more instructions than the earlier eras, so those were very useful. Just in terms of personal interest, I would say that Amelia Simmons American cookery was my favorite. I loved learning more about early American foods. The fact that it's the first cookbook that uses the word cookie. It's sort of fun. She uses the Dutch word, or it comes from the Dutch word, which is, pardon, all of your Dutch listeners, “koekje” - I believe it's how it's pronounced. So she uses the word “koekje,” and she, like I said, reflects what we think of as traditional American foods, turkey stuffing, cranberry sauce, pumpkin pie, it's all in there. I love that sort of reflection of, you know, the 18th century. We had a cookbook I was looking at when I was looking at books for the 50s, and it was a cookbook for bachelors. And they were very simple recipes, very straightforward, meat and potatoes. I think that also reflects the time period in which it was created, what gentlemen might be expected to be able to handle in a kitchen. Devin I sure you've come a long way.

Devin: Maybe not.

Elizabeth: Oh no! But, I love those sort of quirky, niche sort of cookbooks.

We had a bit of a clunker of a jello salad in the 1950s. It was called an applesauce salad, which doesn't sound nearly as offensive as a tuna salad, but it really didn't work. It was lime jello with applesauce. The recipe just said nuts and olives. So the person who made it put in pecans and sliced black olives. It didn't work, those nuts got really moist and mushy overnight, as it chilled and the texture was lumpy because of the applesauce, the olives were sort of rubbery. It was this neon green color. It just, it really wasn't good. I felt really bad. He walked by my desk before we had our tasting and just sort of hung his head. But, you know, we all tried it. That's the one of the rules of tasting history is you - as best you can - try as many of the recipes as you can with an open mind. So we did all have a bite.

Lauren: I was just gonna say it seems like a lot of the jello - I took a class on the 1950s when in my undergrad American Studies major - and I remember, like, the popularity of using a fish shaped mold for jello. I'm not really sure why, but it seems like everybody wanted to mold their jello into the shape of a fish. So I'm wondering if maybe the tuna had something to do with that. Maybe one suggestion is my grandmother, I have recipe books from my grandparents, and she had one that was for wild game, because, you know, my my grandfather, they, you know, they lived through the Depression, and they were big on hunting, and they ate lots of different game. So I can remember seeing the recipe. She was a home act teacher, so she had tons of recipe books, and she was a great cook. But one was for crow pie, oh, and, and they talked about the ways to actually dress the the bird. How, like, how do you pull its feathers off, and how long do you cook it? And how, you know, all these different things that you could do with different parts of the of the animal as well. You know, squirrel there were a lot of squirrel recipes. I mean, it was a whole recipe book just for wild game. So you know that also, I think, reflects the times that of the food that might have been available in a place, in a rural place in New York during the Depression. 

Lauren: Devin, when we were talking to Elizabeth, you and I were somewhat reminiscing about interesting recipes from our past, and it prompted me to bring out a cookbook that belonged to my grandmother called the American woman's cookbook that was published. This edition was published in 1939 so just prior to World War Two, although there was also a special edition published during the war that focused on ways to stretch your rations. How can you make your the food you did have access to last longer for a family? But this cookbook in particular is well loved and well worn. I think the mark of a great cookbook means that there are lots of stains on the pages, lots of earmarks, increased corners for our favorites that we turn back to.

Elizabeth: the last round of Tasting History, the one that I'm still editing, is going to be family history recipes. So for this series, I asked participants to choose a family recipe, something they grew up eating, or something they share with their families, or they could, like, dig into their family history and try a recipe from their genealogical past. The range of recipes that people brought in was huge, and the stories that everybody shared went from silly to sentimental. I chose this theme to highlight the genealogical materials held by the State Library. That one was a lot of fun. People very much got creative. There was something called divorced dads’ dessert.

Devin: Okay? 

Elizabeth: It was ice cream with canned fruit. I brought in my mom's macaroni salad. We'll be sharing those recipes on the New York State Library's website, as well as when we post them on social media. So we're very excited to start sharing those. The next one might be a surprise, but I do have a couple ideas lined up for some future eras to explore. It's funny, you mentioned the Gilded Age. That's one of my future “I-definitely-want-to-cover” eras. We have a lot of ladies magazines from that time period, and I would really like to use those as a resource and sort of dig into Gilded Age recipes. Jamie, who I mentioned earlier, who's in the State Archives, she located some state supplied World War Two era recipes, so like suggested recipes for folks that were put out in handbooks or brochures. So that sounds like a lot of fun. I know I mentioned newspapers as a source, I would definitely like to dig into that; the State Library has one of the largest collections of newspapers, so I definitely want to use that. I was also interested in possibly exploring the Civil War. My brother was a Civil War reenactor, and I accompanied him on any number of reenactment trips, including Gettysburg, which was amazing. And he always ate some Dinty Moore beef stew, because my mother didn't think he could handle much more of that than cooking that. So I would really like to see what was going on with Civil War recipes, anything beyond hardtack I don't know if I want to be making. So yeah, there's lots of different eras to explore. Someone even jokingly threw out the idea of having a gelatin salad-off. So using the 1950s cookbooks again, identifying other interesting jello salads, sweet or savory, and then having all of our participants taste them and maybe vote on them and see which one comes out on top.

Lauren: The Association of Public Historians of New York State has their annual meeting coming up in September. We move around the state. This year we're meeting in Long Island. The theme is, how to tell a good historical narrative. What makes a good narrative that is engaging to the public? And actually, one of our presentations this year is from a person at a historic site who does a food program. So we are definitely jumping on the bandwagon with talking about ways that food can be interpreted at historic sites,  

Devin: That's great. So a way to summarize the importance of culinary and food history and how it can be used in interpretation by cultural organizations is given by the historian Michelle moon, who wrote a book called Interpreting Food at Museums and Historic Sites. She writes, “Food experiences can help us imagine away the barriers of time, getting a little bit closer to inhabiting the thoughts and experiences of people in the past, the intimate, daily and very personal world of food, what people ate and thought they should eat, the sensory pleasures and public identities food afforded them can create a kind of communion with the past, an understanding of how people thought and felt about the times in which they lived.”

Elizabeth: I think it's because memories are made around food. Food is so closely tied with our senses. You can hear sounds from the kitchen, people cooking and chatting. You can smell the food cooking. You can see a beautiful meal laid out on the table. You get to touch food as you prepare it and you eat it. Like you said, cultural history is passed down in families through recipes and cooking techniques. A lot of our holidays involve food, so it's something we can all sort of relate to. So I think when people are presented with historical recipes, they get to draw on their own experiences to engage with them. They don't have to have an existing framework of knowledge about the era the food comes from in order to appreciate it or to have an opinion about it. So I think when we share historical recipes, it's a way to welcome people in and have them want to learn more about the history surrounding the food.

Markers of Focus: County Fairgrounds, Ballston Spa, Saratoga County.

Interviewees: Richard Ball, Commissioner of the NYS Department of Agriculture and Markets, Joshua Hauck-Whealton, Archivist at the New York State Archives and Sarah Welch, Historian for the Saratoga County Agricultural Society.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Featured Image: "A Close Finish", Saratoga County Fair, Ballston Spa, NY. Image courtesy of SCHC at Brookside Museum

Further Reading:

Joshua Hauck-Whealton, “Farm to Fair,” New York Archives Magazine, Summer 2024.

Judith LaManna Rivette, State Fair Stories: The Days and the People of the New York State Fair, 2005.

Julie A. Avery, Agricultural Fairs in America: Tradition, Education, Celebration, 2000.

New York State Agricultural and Industrial Expo, New York State Fair and Agricultural and Industrial Exposition: 1841-1912, 1912.

New York State Fair, State Fair History.

Teaching Resources

American Farm Bureau Foundation for Agriculture Learning Resources.

National Agriculture in the Classroom Teacher Center.

Follow Along

Devin Lander: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian.

Lauren Roberts: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. And today we are focusing on a marker located in the Town of Milton in Saratoga County, which is just outside of the village of Ballston Spa. The title is “County Fairgrounds” and the text reads; Saratoga County Agricultural Society created 1841. Held annual fairs at various locations. Fair held on this site, beginning 1882. William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2022. 

And of course, we are right now in the midst of County Fair season. As we're recording, the Saratoga County Fair is going on for the rest of this week, and as the county historian for Saratoga County, I have been there every day and will be until the end of the fair. So first hand, enjoying what the county fairs have to offer. But before we talk about the county fairs of today, we're going to go back and look at the origins of these county fairs - and of course, the New York State Fair, which happens to be the oldest state fair in the nation. And we're going to talk a little bit about how that got started.

Devin: I think that it's important for us to realize that the origins of what we know today as county fairs and our State Fair, which is one of the largest in the nation - and as you noted, the oldest - really originated in learned societies in the 19th century. So going back to the early 19th century in New York, there were various collections of gentleman farmers, meaning they they owned large estates that were farmed, often by tenant farmers, but they were very interested in the farming technology, in agriculture as a science, and really their interest in agriculture and farming was to figure out ways to make it more scientific, to make it more efficient and to be able to compete with farming that is happening in Europe at the time. Again, this is some of the old story of early America, comparing itself to Europe and finding itself somewhat lacking. 

To learn more about the origins of agricultural fairs, we spoke with Joshua Hauck-Whealton, an archivist at the New York State Archives and author of the article “Farm to Fair: The Beginning of New York's County Fairs,” which is featured in the summer issue of the New York Archives Magazine.

Joshua Hauck-Whealton: My name is Joshua Hauck-Whealton. I am a reference archivist here at the New York State Archives. Have been for a couple, few years now. I am a reference archivist. That means that I am likely the other person at the end of the email exchange or the telephone, answering your reference questions, explaining the finding aids, helping retrieve the materials you're asking for that sort of thing. I've been sort of in this field for 15 years, call it now, and during my dues-paying years, I bounced around from interning at Claremont State Historic Site, which is, of course, the home of Robert R Livingston, Chancellor Livingston and working at the Albany Institute of History and Art, which is the ultimate descendant of Robert Livingston's little gentleman's agricultural society. 

Chancellor Robert Livingston was one of the largest landowners in the Hudson Valley. He had about a million acres, I think, by the time he became chancellor, and he financed himself by leasing out chunks of that land to farmers. That made him very interested in agriculture and very interested in improvements to agricultural techniques, improvement to land, convincing his farmers who rented land from him to, you know, be more productive and thus pay their rent and produce more resources for him. 

Also at this time, basically every state had an agricultural society about like this by the beginning of the 19th century; it was an acceptable means for gentlemen of leisure to get together and discuss scientific topics. It was a way to gain status. It was a way to get together with like-minded people of the same class. In the late 18th century, Robert Livingston and a number of other large landowners produced this society to discuss and do research on ways to improve agriculture, sometimes called Scientific agriculture at the time.

Robert Livingston managed to export a number of Merino sheep back to his estate here in the Hudson Valley. The merino sheep had a reputation of producing very fine wool, very large amounts of very fine wool. They also had a reputation for grazing rough, which meant that they could eat more than just grass. They could eat weeds, shrubs, things like that. You head west, you into the Catskills, which is just famously rocky, and that's where most of Livingston's land was so a sheep that could turn the weeds on the side of a hill and turn it into wool, was just exactly what he wanted. So he sent some sheep home and began - when he came back in 1803 - began breeding and cultivating and generally trying to popularize the breed. 

Lauren : I think it's important that you make the distinction between gentlemen farmers and tenant farmers, or, you know, the average farmer, because these gentlemen farmers are the ones that have the leisure time and the money to sit around and talk about how to make these things better, whereas tenant farmer, they're out there working long days.

Joshua Hauck-Whealton: Livingston started in his goal of selling sheep and popularizing sheep, having sheep shearing fairs, sheep shearing demonstrations, sheep shearing competitions. He had managed to get the state government involved in supporting his little venture, and so they were giving out bounties for high quality wool at these competitions. So he started a sort of proto-fair that was almost entirely based on sheep. But the society did not do a very good job of communicating with the bulk of farmers in the Hudson Valley. Their primary means of outreach was The Transactions [of the Society for the Promotion of Agriculture], their sort of yearly publication, and in it, you can see them trying to be Isaac Newton as much as they're trying to be a farmer. They're trying to show off their erudition. They're trying to theorize. It did not do a very good job of reaching to the common farmer. And Chancellor Livingston and many of his colleagues were quite pretentious and very obviously considered themselves aristocracy, so they weren't really going out and shaking hands with the common plowman. 

That started in the we call it, about 1819 the mainly the 1820s and it seems to be - the exact connection’s a little hard to pin down - the result of the actions of Elkanah Watson, who had been a New York businessman for a number of years, had settled in Albany for a while, bought himself some of Livingston's merino sheep, and then turned around and did exactly what Livingston was doing, and sort of a mid-level marketing kind of scheme. He went over to Pittsfield, Massachusetts, and started trying to sell his sheep, and he started holding fairs in order to sell those sheep. But the major thing about Elkanah is he's one of those, one of those people in the early part of American history, a real institution builder, a real booster, a real active, vibrant person who is constantly writing and traveling and trying to drum up support and enthusiasm for his causes. And his causes were many and varied, but agriculture was one of the main ones, and so he started writing letters just explaining what he was doing in Pittsfield, and you know, it's corresponding with people all around the state, and he was injecting a great deal of pageantry and sort of expanding the role of the of the fair that Livingston had started with just sheep. Part of that was because Pittsfield was cattle country, so we sort of had to get them to bring in cattle, to get them involved. But once he started with that, why stop? So he started having parades and talent demonstrations and all sorts of contests and generally spreading the word through his fairs and through his correspondence. This - to borrow an agricultural metaphor - cast the seeds pretty widely. So you started seeing people getting involved, and a gradual grassroots, to borrow from Ariel Ron, Grassroots Leviathan of agriculturalists who were starting to communicate back with Elkanah and other people and then with each other. And then began creating publications, and gradually through the, you know, the first one was The Ploughman - Solomon Southwick in 1819, and this had the effect of sort of mobilizing the the people that Livingston and his society could not reach, and getting them to talk with each other, and getting them to sort of see themselves as a group that could act together and lobby the government together and so forth.

Devin: It's really interesting that it took an act of the legislature, actually, in 1832 to transition agricultural fairs from really the domain of the elite gentleman farmer into every county, and this really began with the formation of the New York State Agricultural Society, which again was was created in 1832 by the New York State Legislature, and it was granted $25,000 to promote agriculture in the state of New York. 

Lauren:  And that's followed in 1841 by more legislation from the state of New York that actually funded individual county agricultural societies, and that especially in Saratoga County, that's what prompted the creation of the Saratoga County agricultural society in June of 1841 just a month after that legislation is passed, and most people don't realize that the agricultural societies for each county, they're the ones that run the county fairs. They are usually 501c3, nonprofits and separate from any arms of county government, and that legislation gave them money to be able to award premiums to the farmers. Those premiums are important because it encourages the farmers to leave their farms for a day or two or three and be a part of these festivals celebrating agriculture, but also promoting advancing agricultural practices in both crops and livestock and farming implements, because, of course, we have a lot of new implements being invented and improved around this time that are meant to improve production on farms across the state. For more information about the history of the Saratoga County Agricultural Society, we spoke with Sarah Welch, who is the historian for that organization.

Sarah Welch: My name is Sarah Welch. I'm on the board of directors of the Saratoga agricultural society that produces the fair each year. I've been with them for… since 1992 I started with them. I have been treasurer of the fair. I've been on the board, and my son, Tim, now is president of the Fair Board. So we're keeping it all in the family.

Lauren: So back in 1819, when the fair first started, what was the impetus behind starting County Fairs?

Sarah: Well, they wanted to show how important the farm was to existing. You know, the food, the meat, the wood, whatever, came from the farm. And that was what they were trying to show, is it is important that we do have this, that we do have the agriculture. And the first meeting was held in the courthouse in 1841 we didn't even have a grounds at that point. The first president was Howell Gardner, and he was from Greenfield.

Devin : So 1832 and 1841 are really the watershed years for the creation of county fairs, but also the creation of the New York State Fair. So New York State Fair was established in 1841 as part of this new legislation that directed money to the counties for county fairs. It also set aside money for the creation of a State Fair, which took place for the first time that year in 1841 and was based in Syracuse, which is where it still is today. But because it was in Syracuse the first year doesn't mean it was in Syracuse the next year. It was actually in Albany the next year. And over the next 40 years or so, it really moved around the state; it was in places like Poughkeepsie, it was in Saratoga Springs, it was in Rochester, it was in Buffalo, and it was also, somewhat surprisingly perhaps, it was in New York City. So the State Fair really was a traveling fair for about 40 years. In 1889 the Syracuse Land Company donated about 100 acres of land near Syracuse in the village of Geddes in Onondaga County to the state agricultural society to create a permanent home for the State Fair, and really that was the establishment of, again, land, but also permanent buildings that would be used every year. And so the State Fair began its permanent home in Syracuse in the 1890s.

Lauren: I think that a lot of the county fairs took a similar track to the New York State Fair. I know that's true in Saratoga County, that the early years, from the 1840s up to about 1880 the fair is constantly moving. It starts in Ballston Spa and it's also on public lands in Ballston Spa. It's on the grounds of the courthouse. It moves to places like Mechanicville in Saratoga Springs before the early 1880s when the Saratoga County Fairgrounds, it finds its permanent home just outside the village of Ballston Spa, and they built a big track because racing was also a big part of county fairs, not only horses, but as we move into the early 1900s we see car racing there and at that point, I think the success of county fairs and the State Fair are proven enough that they can support permanent structures and they can they can afford to either purchase the land or purchase material to build structures on the land, and kind of cements these county and state fairs in the heritage of the communities that they're in. 

Devin: Yeah, and I think it's important to note that over time, these fairs grew in size, but actually they were very popular right from the beginning, the New York State Fair, for example, in 1841 the very first one, saw between 10,000 and 15,000 people, which was a lot of people at the time. Considering, you know, the modes of transportation were essentially via train, via horseback, via carriage. So, you know, this was a large gathering, and as it expanded in size, and as it expanded in the amount of days that the fair took place, there was more and more opportunity for more things that would be entertaining to visitors. So we mentioned racing, but also other types of entertainment: music. There was also - vendors started to appear, not only selling kind of agricultural wares, but also selling food and goods and beverages and materials like that. And over time, as these grew and and as they became more and more a center of a person's, really summer planning, right? And people built their calendars around when the county fair was taking place or when the State Fair was taking place. And as this developed over time, they became the larger multi day, multi entertainment events that we can think about today.

To get a sense of modern state and county fairs in New York State, we spoke with the Commissioner of the New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets, Richard Ball, to get a sense of what the current administration is prioritizing at the fair and how fairs are being conceptualized in the modern era. 

Devin: Hello!

Richard Ball: Hi. This is Richard.

Devin: Hi, Richard. This is Devin Lander, New York State historian at the State Museum.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the Saratoga County Historian. I met you briefly a couple weeks ago, when you were at the Saratoga County Fairgrounds, 

Richard: I think you had rabbits, if I remember.

Lauren: Yes! Yep, those are my daughter's rabbits.

Richard:  That was a great day up there. 

Back in the day, it was - fairs served a lot of purposes. One of them was, you know, some - there were some financial rewards for farmers showing off their produce, their animals, but it was also a time to come together and network and learn some things. Over the years, you know, the fairs, everyone thinks of them as a midway place and a place to have fun fried food. But we've been looking at the fairs, particularly over the last 10 years, trying to build up the infrastructure there, and trying to relook at the relevance of our fairs, and it's something that's been a priority for the governor and for us at the department, because they're a great place to connect the dots between our agricultural community and consumers in the state. The population has changed, the demographics have changed, and we've got many families that are three, four generations removed from agriculture. So here's an opportunity to connect in a better way. 

So, State Fair, we've invested a lot of money in improving the infrastructure, but also making a conscious effort to make sure agriculture remains the centerpiece of our state fair, and one of the things that the Governor and I spend a lot of time talking about is, how do we look at the whole network of county fairs and state fairs, and together, lift the profile of agriculture and also be a connecting point for careers, for young people, for their opportunities to think about. We'll have an Ag Career Day at the State Fair where kids actually have some one on one with 4H kids, FFA kids, but also for mom and dad to connect with, hey, there's careers in the food system that are not just jobs, but are careers. In our budget this year, talking with the governor at her encouragement, we put together some funding for the county fairs to market themselves. Use some ad campaigns you're going to see, “Never Far From Fun” rolling out. And I was happy to go to the Boonville fair and get my very first stamp on my passport. We've created a passport document that looks just like a passport with places where, as you go to each county fair, you can get a stamp just like you would at a foreign country to encourage people to visit our county fairs, we've got about 50 of them in state, and obviously we want to encourage that behavior and connect dots in a better way and lead people down to the state fair to be a thrilling conclusion of all of that.

Lauren: Yeah, I just wanted to also mention I'd like you know, your emphasis on kids in agriculture, and I have a child in 4H so I'm biased, but these kids that are in 4H and Future Farmers of America that work really hard all year round, and don't get the same recognition that kids on maybe sports teams or in the performing arts get the county fair is really their week, and they are there 12 hours a day, taking care of those animals, showing them off, being judged, and getting that experience of, you know, what a breed standard is, or how they've grown a specific vegetable. So, you know, the fairs for these kids are so important, and the recognition they get for their work all year round, it's, really important to be able to promote the fair and bring in outside people who don't realize that these groups are still so vibrant and so important to to all of their communities and the agricultural heritage that we see in so many parts of the state.

Richard: Oh my gosh, yeah, you know, totally well said, when you think about the discipline, responsibility, passion that's required of these young people to produce their crop or take care of their animals. It's a it's a lesson in what the United States taught the world, you know, 200 years ago, 300 years ago, and we want to encourage that kind of behavior, and add to that, that you know, when the family goes to the fair, leave your worries behind, just come to the fair. Have a great time and observe that America's still alive and well at our county fairs.

Devin: So Lauren, as you mentioned earlier, you are in the midst, as we are recording this, of being involved with the Saratoga County Fair on a daily basis.

Lauren:  I certainly am immersed in fair life right now. As the County Historian, we have - actually the county has - a whole tent where a lot of our departments within the county see this as an opportunity to reach out to some constituents that they wouldn't otherwise see on a daily basis, and there are representatives there from, let's say, the DMV or the County Clerk informing people how do you get a passport, or the Office of Aging and Youth is there helping senior citizens learn more about the services that are offered to them. 

So as the historian. In we are actually talking about the upcoming 250th anniversary of the American Revolution, and, of course, the battles of Saratoga. We have a display of older objects from the 18th century, a time around the Revolution, that people have to guess what they were used for. And really, people love guessing these things. We have a boot jack there, which is a piece of wood that is that farmers in particular, but anyone that wore boots used to help them extract their foot from boots. And we also are offering opportunities to kids. We let them write with a quill pen, talk about what communication was like in the Revolution, because it's so different. Now, just to give them a sense of the amount of time and effort it took, but the other things that I really love about the fair are, you do get kind of a different segment of the population that wouldn't normally, let's say, come to a history lecture. And so you see, we have a huge amount of kids that are in summer recreation camps that are bused in during the day, and they are interested in hands-on activities. You see them in all of the different animal barns. My favorite animal barn are the draft horses. And of course, I also like the small animal barn where my own daughter is exhibiting rabbits as part of the domestic rabbit club for 4H and I would say a highlight for that is the bunny agility show. So that is really entertaining as well. Yeah, I think it's a mix of entertainment, of learning about agriculture and also, of course, the food. So I would have to say, over the last couple of days, my favorite fair food; I love the maple milkshakes that are made from local maple syrup with Stewart's milk, and they're delicious.

Devin: I would say, although it's hard to pick one thing, that I like the best, I'm always a fried dough fan and - 

Lauren: A classic! 

Devin: A classic, but I also am a connoisseur of Italian sausages with peppers and onions, so I try to get one every time I go to any fair, and then I compare it to everyone else's… 

Lauren: And who has the best? 

Devin: It's hard to beat the folks at the Rensselaer County Fair who have a booth. Every year I go to that fair. It's where I live now, in Rensselaer County, and I get their sausage, which is massive, and it usually makes it so I can't finish my fried dough afterwards.

Lauren: When you think about the fair coming up in the summers, and you get excited for it. What is it that that has, you know, that seems like the Fair has this certain mystique. And you mentioned, you know, the fair is like a family, but when you think about going on opening day, what is it that is so interesting and inspiring about the fair?

Sarah:  I think there is so much to see, and every year it's new displays. I mean, people are always trying to improve the fair. They want to be part of what's going on. They all have stories about it. And I think that to me, what I enjoy is I usually sit in our building and talk to the people and hear the stuff that they remember doing when they came to the fair when they were little children, how their moms and dads would bring them. Those are nice memories.

Marker of Focus: Lady Acland, Village of Schuylerville, Saratoga County.

Interviewees: Sean Kelleher, Town of Saratoga Historian and Anne Clothier, Assistant Saratoga County Historian

Further Reading:

Lady Harriet Acland, The Acland Journal: Lady Harriet Acland and the American War, 1993.

Holly A. Mayer, Belonging to the Army: Camp Followers and Community during the American Revolution, 1999.

Richard M. Ketchum, Saratoga: Turning Point of America's Revolutionary War, 1999.

Teaching Resources:

PBS Learning Media: Women in the American Revolution Interactive Lesson

Museum of the American Revolution: A Woman’s War

National Park Service: The Battles of Saratoga: Student Reading Activity

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian. 

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. Today we're focusing on a marker located along Route 4 in the town of Saratoga, which is in Saratoga County. It sits at the entrance to a public boat launch and park that's along the Hudson River, and the text reads, Lady Acland. On October 9 1777, Traveled down Hudson River to Stillwater to nurse her wounded husband, British Major Acland, held prisoner by American forces. William G Pomeroy Foundation 2021.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most of our listeners are not familiar with the name Lady Acland or her more formal name, Lady Christian Henrietta Caroline Fox-Strangways, Acland, who went by the name of Harriet. Harriet was born on January 3, 1749, in England. Her father was an Earl, so she lived a very privileged life, and she married John Dyke Acland. During the American Revolution, major Acland was sent to the colonies to fight, and in 1777 Lady Acland accompanied him to Canada. 

So for those of us who might not remember fourth grade American Revolution history, just a brief overview of that campaign led by General John Burgoyne. The British army of between 9000, 10000 were coming down from Canada, and their main objective was to fight their way through and reach Albany. And while Burgoyne was successful early on in his campaign - he took Fort Ticonderoga without a fight - and continued to move his army south until he made it to Saratoga. So the first battle of Saratoga happened on September 19, 1777, it was essentially a stalemate. The Americans were successful in stopping the British advance towards Albany, but at the end of the day, the British Army held the field of battle, so they calculate that as a victory. And on October 7, the second Battle of Saratoga occurred. By that point, the British were outnumbered, low on supplies, and they were losing men. So on October 7, the American army was victorious and forced the British into a retreat. General Benedict Arnold was instrumental in that battle, he rallied his men, and he was valiant. He was also shot just above the ankle in the left leg, which is why we have the famous boot monument. But it does force the British into a retreat. They begin to retreat north, about eight or nine miles north of Saratoga Battlefield, and they eventually are surrounded by the American forces. There's no way for them to head back north, and so they negotiate terms of convention, and on October 17, General John Burgoyne surrenders to General Gates at Saratoga, or what we now call Schuylerville. And it's the first time in world history that a British Field Army surrenders, and that army then becomes known as the convention army. They're essentially prisoners of war for several years after that, but it's known as the turning point of the American Revolution. It helps to convince France to finally become our ally and to send troops and what we desperately needed, a navy.

In June of 1777, Major Acland served in the 20th Regiment of Foot in Burgoyne's army, and he was part of the expedition from Canada that General Burgoyne was leading to come down and conquer Albany to learn more about Lady Acland and her story. We spoke with town of Saratoga historian Sean Kelleher.

Sean Kelleher: So I'm Sean Kelleher. I'm the historian for the town of Saratoga, and I've been a historian in the town for 20 years now. I've kind of come to becoming a historian through an interesting way. I've always enjoyed putting on historical events. I grew up during the American bicentennial in the Boston area. After college, became a TV producer doing primarily educational type programs for a PBS station. And the skills that I learned as a TV producer worked very, very well as a historian too, because it's basically: go out, find out information and share it with others. It's the same basic skill sets.

So Lady Acland is one of those interesting stories from the Saratoga campaign of 1777. She is this aristocratic lady, and in 1777 she marries this John Dyke Acland. So she accompanies him on campaign with a valet, a ladies maid and a dog, and she creates this narrative of the American landscape that later gets published, and there's paintings done, and it just shows people of Europe what America looks like. 

They started up in Canada, and as they were leaving Canada, her husband got quite ill, so she spent some time in June nursing him back to health, and then he joins the British Army for the attack on Fort Ticonderoga. And during the subsequential Battle of Harperton, he receives a dangerous wound, and she rushes to him to nurse him back to care. And in that process, they have a second tragedy, that their tent gets caught on fire. She goes out one side, and he goes out the other, and he can't see her, so he goes back into the tent to save her, and she's not there, but he gets burnt in the process. So he's having a tough time in 1777. But again, he gets  nursed back into health. So when we get to the second battle of Saratoga in October 1777, he's there on the front lines, leading his regiment the 20th of Foot. And he gets wounded again, so he gets brought to the British hospital. She's with the British Army. The British Army retreats north to the village of Saratoga. What we know as Schuylerville today, but they abandoned their hospital, so he becomes a prisoner of the Americans. 

On October 9, she goes with another woman, the Baroness von Riedesel, to General Burgoyne, and they ask for permission for Lady Acland to go down and to nurse her husband. So it's during a driving rainstorm Burgoyne writes a note to Gates asking for his assistance in getting her to her husband, and she goes down the Hudson River in an open boat. It's 11 o'clock at night during a driving rainstorm in October. It's her, her maid, her servant, and a minister. And of course, the lap dog. You can't leave the lap dog behind. They make it down to what we would call the Colville area, and they get stopped by an American sentry. And this is where the stories start to change a little bit. But the American telling of the story is, they halted her. They waited so that Major Dearborn, he was in charge of the light infantry from New Hampshire. He comes up. He obtains what's going on. He receives the note from Burgoyne, and he decides that it's no longer safe for them to be in in the Hudson River, brings them to shore, and then moves her to this cabin that he had set up for his bedding, and he gave gives up his bed, gives it to her, they start a fire, they give her a cup of tea, and in the process, they realize her delicate state, she's pregnant. So the Americans, according to Dearborn's telling of the story, took care of her. The next morning, at sunrise, some aides for Gates come up and they bring her down to her husband, who is at the American hospital at this point around the Neilson House, a site that many people know within the battlefield. Ultimately, they end up going as a couple down to Schuyler’s house in Albany, where they're better able to nurse him, and he regains strength. And they're prisoners until 1778.

Lauren: We also know about Lady Acland's story through the writings of Lady Frederica Riedesel, who is also known as the Baroness. She was the wife of the commander of German troops at Saratoga, and she describes Lady Acland's story as well, in more detail than Lady Acland's own diary. So she mentions that she actually convinces Lady Harriet Acland to go to Burgoyne and ask for permission to be able to cross lines and go to her husband. And of course, the Baroness is writing her memoirs after the end of the campaign, and we know that Burgoyne had to surrender, and it's not successful. But she mentions that Burgoyne is busy drinking champagne and partying with the wife of one of his officers, rather than being concerned about his soldiers that were out in the cold and the rain, because the night that Lady Acland went down the river, there was a driving rainstorm, and it was cold, and all of the troops were out in this weather, suffering through this while Burgoyne was in A nice, warm house with champagne and a lady friend. So the Baroness is very critical of this, but she also describes the story of Acland. So we have several sources that talk about what was happening on that night.

Devin: So you've outlined a pretty exciting and violent and arduous campaign from Canada down through the Champlain Valley and into what is now Saratoga County. So why would a lady born into nobility and extreme privilege in England; What was she doing following this army?

Lauren: It's a good question, and I think there's probably several different reasons, but women were constantly present with both armies. But definitely there were more with the British Army, and there's different roles that women played in following the army. So in Lady Acland's case, we know that she was privileged, she was wealthy. So she would have been able to choose if she wanted to stay home and live in luxury in England with servants and probably a beautiful estate, or she could choose to follow her husband, probably out of a sense of duty to him, or love for him, and maybe adventure. This could have been an opportunity for her to see another part of the world that she might not have gotten in any other case, and she wasn't roughing it. I mean, she had maids with her. She had supplies, all of the things that she needed. But that doesn't mean that it would have been the same type of life that she was accustomed to in England. 

Devin: And she was obviously highly educated, because she kept a transcript of her adventures and became one of the chroniclers of Burgoyne's campaign as a person who was actually experiencing it, so a very important primary source document that she created.

Lauren: In order to learn more about women camp followers, particularly with the British army. We spoke with Anne Clothier, Assistant to the Saratoga County Historian, and a living historian who focuses on programming about women in the American Revolution.

Anne Clothier: So my name is Anne Clothier, and I've been interested in the topic of the 18th century and the American Revolution since I was a little kid, and I actually got involved in living history when I was about 13, and I joined a Girl Scout Troop at the Saratoga National Historical Park. This group did volunteering there and helping out with special events. And then I started volunteering there independently, and I also joined a reenacting regiment around that time as well, and I really never could step away from history. And I went and I got my bachelor's in history, and then my master's in museum studies. And I now am working at the Saratoga County Historian's Office as assistant to the historian, but I also continue to do living history programs and presentations as well, with a special focus, certainly on the American Revolution, but also women in the American Revolution and their roles as nurses, but also the experiences of loyalists and British women who were following the Burgoyne campaign. 

So women's reasons for traveling with the Army certainly varied, and a lot of it depended on their own social background, their social class. So for someone like Lady Acland, a lot of it seemed to really have to do with her personal feelings of responsibility toward her husband. In her writings, and those who were writing about her, she seemed to really have a lot of really strong loyalty to her husband and also concern about his well being, and so that was a major reason for her certainly. It did seem like initially the plan was that she was going to stay in Garrison at a fort while her husband continued southward on the campaign, but after he was initially injured, she rushed to his side up by the shores of Lake Champlain. A lot of women did stay in Garrison, but there were certainly also many women again, that would continue on with the campaign. Sometimes the commanders were bemoaning this additional responsibility and drain on resources. However, it's also worth noting that these women were fulfilling very important roles on the campaign and doing things that really needed to happen to keep that army going. 

Lauren: So those types of roles, though, that wouldn't have been something that Lady Harriet Acland did? 

Anne: Certainly not. So she would be someone who, again, her primary responsibility was her husband, and whether that was his physical and emotional welfare, having someone to converse with and discuss. Again, her focus was him, but various other women who were following with the army would have roles that were actually assigned by the regiments that they were associated with. 

[There were]certainly more women in the British camp generally, for the most part, they had come over because they were following their husbands out of a sense of conjugal duty and responsibility, but also reality, because a woman who might have been left behind across the ocean in England, she would have had to rely on any family she might have had there, be it her father or brothers in law or things like that, if she didn't have those resources or just that wasn't a viable option. Following her husband was the way to maintain herself, maintain her children and keep the family together. So it was something that many women ended up doing. The regiments tried to keep a limit, a cap on that number, but it was still something that many women chose to do. 

So these women who were your average followers, who were traveling on campaign with their husbands, who may have been private soldiers or corporals or sergeants, things like that, they would have been assigned to roles such as nurses, and we think of nurses being necessary in the immediate aftermath of a battle. However, a lot of soldiers also suffered with sickness, so these nurses were needed to care for soldiers who were dealing with typical campaign illnesses. So it was a fairly constant need. Certainly that need drastically increased around the time of battles, but women were needed in those hospitals. Their roles as nurses were not necessarily what we think of as your typical registered nurse role today, but they were maintaining the soldiers, making sure that they had food, that they were hydrated, and also maintaining cleanliness in the hospitals as well. And it was more of the surgeons, hospital stewards, surgeons maids, that were dealing with the actual medical procedures that we think of, especially in the aftermath of the battles. But again, those women were keeping those hospitals running cleanly and smoothly.

But in addition to nursing, there were also roles to maintain the uniforms of the soldiers, to be seamstresses, to sew things that were needed by the soldiers. And also repair. These are soldiers on campaign, so certainly, things are getting ripped. So repair was a part of that. But also, again, back to that idea of cleanliness. We spoke of it in the hospitals. But cleanliness in the form of laundry, it was very important for the soldiers to have clean clothing, especially their shirts, and so women were employed washing the shirts to, again, make sure that there was sanitation to try and keep down the issues of body lice and things like that, because there was awareness that sanitation could improve the general overall health of the soldiers, and that could only make an army stronger.

Lauren: I think it's easy to see that they were absolutely necessary for the army to function. For both armies, you had to have them in the British army, and much to Washington's chagrin, you had to have them in the American army because they performed the roles that soldiers did not want to or could not. So whether they took up resources or they distracted, they certainly were essential, and they were more than just prostitutes. And I think a lot of people, when you hear the term “camp follower,” they immediately think that they were all just prostitutes, and that's that really wasn't the case. And the more we uncover sources, the more we learn about the different roles that they played, and about their experiences too.

Devin: So that brings me to a question, what happened to Lady Acland and the other camp followers of Burgoyne's army after the surrender? 

Lauren: So all of the women that were following Burgoyne's army also became prisoners of war. They were part of the convention army. They certainly didn't have the same experience. They all didn't have the same experience after Lady Acland made it through the American lines and was able to nurse her husband, the wives of the officers, there were others too. Lady Riedesel also. They were hosted by Phillip Schuyler at his mansion in Albany after the surrender, and they stayed there for a while, and then they proceeded to Boston, eventually, where the rest of the army had to walk. 

So your average camp follower had to walk. So October 17th was surrender day, if we think about what weather is like in upstate New York in the middle and end of October, they walked from Saratoga to Boston in cold weather, their clothing became rags. They were not prepared for the elements. Many of them didn't have shoes. Many of them were carrying young children on their backs along with whatever their worldly possessions were, and they had to make this arduous trip. So the terms of surrender that gates agreed to were that, you know, once burgoyne's army surrendered, they could then march to Boston and be put on ships and go back to England. But Congress did not agree with this. They thought there's no way they're actually not going to come back and fight, or they're not just going to go to a different port or reinforce some other troops so that they could then come and fight in North America. So they didn't ratify it, so they weren't allowed to leave. They weren't allowed to go back to England, so they had to stay as prisoners of war. But we know that the American army could barely feed themselves, let alone feed another several thousand person army. So they were undersupplied. They didn't have adequate housing. And they actually remained prisoners of war for years now. Now Lady Acland, they were allowed to leave and go back to England in 1778, and of course, they weren't under the same strain that regular followers were. They still had their maids. They had a carriage they could ride in. They would rent houses so they had adequate shelter.

Sean: In the process of going back to England, they have their son. So he's born on the boat. His son, unfortunately, doesn't live that long. He lives about until the age of seven, and roughly at the same time, about seven years down the road, John Acland also dies, supposedly from a duel. It may have been complications from all of his wounds, but he ends up dying. Lady Acland ends up being a widow for many years, she's probably… What a lot of people might be aware of are noticeable. Her family's quite prominent, and it's her grandson that ends up building the family home in England, known as Highclere Castle. That's the grand house that was in the star of the Downton Abbey series on PBS. So there's even a tie to Downton Abby here. So for obvious reasons, you can see it's a it's a compelling story, and it made sense to make this into a Pomeroy marker.

Lauren: As part of the upcoming 250th commemoration. It's important that we keep talking about these stories that people aren't familiar with, notably, the stories about women in the war. One of the things that we're trying to do at Saratoga 250 is to bring some of these stories about the women that were in the Saratoga campaign to light. And the last few years, we have held a Women in War symposium. The first women in war symposium was the idea of David Bullard, who owned the Marshall House, which was the house that many of the officers’ wives took refuge in during the siege of Saratoga. Notably, the Baroness was in the cellar with her three young daughters under the age of five, and the house was being cannonaded for about a week, and she tells the stories of what that was like to be there with her children and experiencing the wounded soldiers who were there with her, the other officers’ wives, some of which lost their husbands, and there was a lot of sickness. There were infected wounds, the smell that they had to endure in the cellar. So we know a lot about the officers' wives because of these writings. And so the Women in War symposium has been a way to bring scholars together who are doing this research and give them a place to present their work. And it's not just about women on the Saratoga campaign, it's women throughout the American Revolution. This past May we had Dr Holly Mayer come and talk about Margaret Corbin, who was the first female to earn a pension from the American government. She famously took over the cannon when her husband was killed and she was wounded and became part of the Invalid’s Corp and was paid for her service to the country. And there were other scholars that spoke about women of all economic backgrounds and the different roles that they played. And I think it's important to keep talking about the roles that women played. It gives us a better understanding of the larger concept of what happens in warfare, understanding that broader impact of not only the combatants, but also the people living around the area where the battles are happening and those that are playing supportive roles; that all feeds into the larger picture and understanding of what we know about the American Revolution and how it affected the lives of everyone, not just those that were combatants. 

Sean: It's not only, obviously we're talking about Lady Acland, but she's also there with her maid, so there's another woman. Their stories are there. They just need to kind of be pulled out a little bit more. And that's something that we're always actively looking for, especially today, because we're still telling the stories of Burgoyne and Gates and so on, and we're still telling the stories of the common soldier, but we're also trying to tell the stories of the common women that were there.

Marker of Focus: Ronek Park, Village of North Amityville, Suffolk County, Long Island

Interviewees: Mary Cascone, Town of Babylon Historian and Eugene Burnett, Ronek Park resident and former Town of Babylon Police Department Sergeant.  

Further Reading:

Dolores Hayden, Building Suburbia: Green Fields and Urban Growth, 1820-2000, 2004.

Kenneth T. Jackson, Crabgrass Frontier: The Suburbanization of the United States, 1985.

Gene Slater, Freedom to Discriminate: How Realtors Conspired to Segregate Housing and Divide America, 2021.

Teaching Resources:

Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis: Neighborhood Redlining and Home Ownership Lesson.

Consumer Financial Protection Bureau: Understanding Redlining.

National Geographic: Mapmaker: Redlining in the United States.

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian. 

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. Today, we're heading east to the hamlet of North Amityville, which is part of the town of Babylon on Long Island. The sign is located at the intersection of Albany Avenue and Croydon road, and the text reads, Ronek Park. Honored as a non discriminatory housing development started by Thomas Romano in 1950. A part of the local housing boom after World War II. William G. Pomeroy Foundation 2015. So if you aren't from Long Island, you might be unfamiliar with the name Ronek Park, you probably have heard of a different housing development, also located on Long Island that was built around the same time called Levittown. And, of course, we're going to be discussing what made these two communities very different. Before we get into that, let's jump back for a bit and talk about why we have numerous housing developments popping up on Long Island in the late 1940s and the early 1950s.

Devin: I think really the suburban boom in the United States was the result of several different factors; more immediately was that the United States emerged from World War Two as - that though there were horrific losses of American men and women during the war, the United States was essentially unscathed compared to Europe, Japan - obviously, compared to China, the United States did suffer a direct attack at Pearl Harbor, but otherwise didn't have the catastrophic events unfold that those nations did. And we really have to think about the demographic changes that were happening shortly after the war, the biggest being the Baby Boom. Couple this with an economy that had emerged from the Great Depression. And during World War Two had become a manufacturer of the war. And so the economy was humming. They were looking for housing that could provide for a family, so, all of the new things that were coming out after World War Two as the war economy transitioned to a consumer based economy and consumer goods became ever more prevalent as the technology improved. Prices went down on things like washing machines and other devices that previously had only existed for the very wealthy. There's also the increase in the automobile, which made living outside of a city more possible. Many, if not most, of the people who moved to Levittown still worked in New York City. So how were they commuting? Well, yes, there's a train but many of them also are commuting by automobile. And of course, Long Island became kind of a natural suburb of the city. So to learn more about what Long Island was like in the postwar era, and how it became the site of so many of these housing developments, we spoke to Mary Cascone, the town historian for the town of Babylon.

Mary Cascone: Well, I am Mary Cascone and I am the historian for the town of Babylon, which is on the south shore of Long island I do a little bit of everything. I like to tell people that around this office, we never know what we're going to find until we look. And that's pretty much how we approach every day. So ask us, and we'll see if we can.

So looking at population statistics for the town of Babylon, pre World War II 1940, we have 24,000 people. But the big jump that happens, we quadruple our population from ‘50 to ‘70. We go from 45,000 people to 203,000. And I was just speaking at an anniversary program last week, and I was you know, why were we building all these libraries? Well, everything comes down to the suburban boom that the people come out, they need houses, the families bring children which need schools, they need, we need to widen the roads for all of the cars, now they need something to do so we need to expand the public parks. But then all of the commercial entities that come in. The town of Babylon, at some point was just like the fastest growing community during that time. It was definitely on Long Island. It might have even been in New York. It goes to our location. We border Nassau County, so all those people coming eastward from New York City - We already had established railroads, we had commuter stations ready to go. The Southern State Parkway had come through for us by then. So did Southern State. So our infrastructure was kind of just ready. 

Although, I will say that the people at the time didn't consider themselves ready. I am fortunate to have spoken with a lot of people probably about 15 years ago that have since passed away, including the supervisor from the late 1950s. Arthur M. Cromarty, we have a court complex and Riverhead named after him. Now if you get jury duty, you go to the Cromarty Court Complex, but he described what it was like to have all of these people. One of the reasons why he talked about expanding the parks was we had so many people and they needed things to do. There are so many stories that come out of that suburban boom, including all of the wives and mothers who had been used to living in the city where they could walk to places, and now they're in the middle of nowhere. So as much as we built these communities have lots of people, there were also those areas where people felt isolated, because now they didn't have access to transportation. The deli wasn't down the street, my own grandmother talked about this; moving to Long Island in the 1960s. So it's another piece that I remember, along with schools were so crowded, they were doing double shifts, very much like what we saw during the pandemic, where they would try to reduce the number of kids in school by doing a morning session and afternoon session. They were doing that in the 50s and 60s. And so I can find newspaper headlines that will say, Oh, “North Babylon school expects to drop second shift by fall.” So as great as it was, as quickly as it built, it was difficult. And you can still see that in some things when people will say, “why does this road and here why doesn't it connect to the other one?” And you have to look at when was it built? Was it part of an earlier development?

Lauren: There's also something else that was very helpful in this housing boom, and that was the GI Bill, the government was very conscious of not wanting to fall into a postwar depression. So as early as 1942, they were discussing, you know: how are we going to reintegrate the troops back into regular life after the war is over? And there were estimates that up to 15 million men and women might become unemployed at the end of the war. So in 1944, President Roosevelt signs the Servicemen's Readjustment Act, which is the actual name for the GI Bill, and it really helped in three areas: it tried to mediate unemployment, it gave money to service members for education and training, and the third thing it did was provide money for housing. According to the World War Two Museum, “the guarantee that was provided by the GI Bill made veterans safer investments for banks, since the government would pay back either 50% of the loan or $2,000, if the recipient failed to pay for the loan.” The Veterans Administration guaranteed over 2 million home loans by 1950. So that's the scale of veterans that were taking advantage of the GI bill by 1950. 

We have to remember that in World War Two, the army was a segregated army. So blacks fought in different regimens than whites at the time. We did not have a fully integrated society, so they were coming back from a segregated army into a Homefront that still was grappling with racial divides, and that didn't end with housing developments, though the GI Bill was meant to help all service members coming back, there were some endemic problems with getting loans for everyone that was a service member.

Devin: So as we're thinking about these developments happening in Long Island and elsewhere around the United States, brings us to thinking about how race played a role. And specifically, the term “Redlining.” Redlining actually goes back to the Great Depression, and the Homeowners Loan Corporation Act, which was signed into law in 1933, which was designed to provide an overview and a ranking of communities based on how much of a risk they were to give out mortgages in and it was really through that initial act that the term redlining came into parlance, and that's because there were four categories of “quality” of a neighborhood and they had corresponding colors, green being the highest level, then followed by blue, then yellow, and then red. And according to historian Kenneth T. Jackson and his groundbreaking work Crabgrass Frontier, the Suburbanization of the United States, the first grade also known as a and green areas were described as new, homogenous, and quote, in demand as residential locations in good time and bad. Again, this is a quote from Kenneth Jackson, “homogenous meant American business and professional men, for example, Jewish neighborhoods,” - or even those with “an infiltration of Jews could not be considered best, or any more than they could be considered American.” So immediately, you see that Jewish people were also prejudiced against, and the lowest level, as we noted, the red color and the D grade, were almost exclusively reserved for African American neighborhoods in urban areas. And this is where we get the term redlining. And in some cases, the racism was so abrupt that even a community with very few African American people in it would immediately get a red line. That was very important because it meant that mortgages and resources going into these communities would not be seen as a good investment. Whether or not the people that lived there were well-off or not, it didn't matter. These were considered to be high risk, and therefore very hard to get mortgages, very hard to get home improvement loans, very hard to get business loans. And many historians, including Ken Jackson and others, have drawn the conclusion that redlining is something that really decimated urban communities because it discouraged any kind of investment, and it discouraged loans of money and resources. And at the same time, as the FHA and the GI Bill come online, in the postwar years, we see the government favoring the building of new single family homes, in suburban communities. 

Lauren: So as a result of these redlining policies, when new subdivisions were being built, it was important to some of the developers that their communities were not seen as risky communities for mortgage loans. So in Levittown, they actually had a policy that houses would only be sold to Caucasian people. So African Americans were completely excluded from being allowed to purchase housing in Levittown. And that's why we see places like Ronek Park come about because these African American servicemembers were coming home and they were being denied access to many of the large developments. So they needed a place to go.

Devin: So we know that the gentleman's name who was kind of the main developer behind this was named Thomas Romano, and what do we know about him and his reasoning for establishing a non discriminatory community? 

Mary: I know that he was honored by many organizations for creating a nondiscriminatory community.

From a business point of view, I think it was brilliant. Because you have people that want to buy a house, you have people that are ready with money, they're willing to sign a mortgage. And why would you you're he's saying, “I'm not going to turn anyone away.” Because remember, he's not saying, “Only black people come here.” He's saying, “Hey, everybody, I'm ready to take your money and give you a house.” So that's how I often look at it.

He buys up the land, and he starts filing those papers. He's in earlier than a lot of other developments. And people are looking for places, we see that through the sales and the deeds that were being filed. And so when I have people that will come to me, and specifically within the town of Babylon, they'll say, “Well, why did all the black people move to North Amityville and Wyandanch?” And then I sit there and I explained that people are going to not go not only where they feel comfortable, but also where people are going to let them buy a house. So really, instead of it being the effect is that instead of it just being non discriminatory, they end up being steered that way. And we had in nearby Wyandanch, we already had communities, neighborhoods that had been started by businessmen of color. Carver Park is one that had started. So Ronek Park isn't the only one. But when it came to the marker program, this was one that I knew was very unique. And also because when I put together almost 100 pages of newspaper articles and everything about it, this was not just being advertised here in New York. And while it gets reported in the local papers, they're not trying to advertise to people that already live in the North Amityville or the town of Babylon area, they're trying to appeal to the city people to get them to move eastward. And that's what we find with a lot of real estate, even going back to the late 1800s. But this was so unique, because this is getting reported across the country. Now, historically, black newspapers in New York City include the New York Amsterdam News and The New Age. But then as I was able to expand out, and that's what's great about being a historian in the 21st century is the access that we have to so many more resources. In Baltimore, there was The Afro American. And then there was the Chicago Defender. These are all reporting about, you know, this historic event of Ronek Park. So they may not have been the first, they may not have been the biggest, they may not have been the best, but they were really good at advertising. They got the word out. And that's probably why more people know about them. 

Devin: Well, I love this advertisement that you've shared from the New Amsterdam News that says “not only do these houses brand new cost $6,990 Complete, there are no un-American undemocratic restrictions as to race color or creed.” I think that is brilliant advertising, right? 

Mary: Yes, it is. 

Devin: Because they're not saying, you know, this is for people of color, or they're just saying the restrictions that exist elsewhere are unAmerican and undemocratic. 

Mary: They are appealing to people's patriotism! 

Devin: Exactly. 

Mary: …through real estate! I will also send you an advertisement. That was actually very confusing at first, because when I first saw it, it says, “We Proudly Present America: 1960.” But this was published in 1950. So to us today, we're going, “wait a minute, that's confusing. What do you mean?” but published in 1950. They're saying we're already 10 years ahead of you.

Devin: So as they were building Ronek Park in 1950, the first 147 homes actually attracted 3000 people to come and see them being built and being plotted out. There was an article Newsday from January of 1950. It says: “3000 Swarm to see Interracial Project.” So again, there was really big interest in this. There was a big market. Obviously, there's many African American people that were looking to, to build and own homes on Long Island. But there's also just an overall interest in this because it was being advertised again and written up in the newspapers, including the New York Times as an interracial or community where race would not be taken into account.

Mary: I think it was, I think that the people that moved in, the majority of them were African American, from New York City. This was also a place where mixed race couples would be welcomed. Today it continues to be predominantly black, that community and when all of North Amityville, but its Hispanic population has been growing. Now, we already had a black and Native American population that was living in North Amityville, for generations, but they're living in a very rural landscape. And then all of a sudden, across the street, you now have this whole modern community. And I have had people that that talked about how there were these social differences just because you have black people that lived there, and now Black people that are moving in, you know, they were city people versus country people. That's a whole ‘nother social aspect of the newcomers. And also, people that came from the city, we had a lot of World War II veterans, we had people with good paying jobs, and they were arriving with money. For a lot of them, they had a higher economic status than the people that were already living there. And that that can cause friction in any community, regardless of race.

Lauren: In order to get a personal perspective from one of these returning service members, we reached out to Mary who had done an oral history interview with Eugene Burnett in 2008.

Mary: In 2007, and 2008, we had a town of Babylon oral history project, and I interviewed 75 people and a couple of them from North Amityville. And that's - when people are older, now they're in their 70s and 80s,  And they're reflecting on things that, I don't know, maybe we just created a really safe space for them to talk, but they would share. And so Eugene Burnett, he was really important to our local history for sharing his stories. He talks about being rejected from Levittown about seeing an ad for Ronek Park. And coming here. He describes what it was like living in New York City.  Women, he remembered women washing clothes on washboards, and having to carry things up and down. And that he goes to Ronek Park. And now everyone's living in the same house, they have all the same amenities. They've got these brand new kitchens, there's washing machines. Okay. I think it's really actually I just got chills thinking about it, that here's this guy that he is describing how he watched the women before him struggle in doing laundry, and now that his family would have this modern appliance, but then he also shared how the houses weren't really built all that well, which is something that we get from mass production, you know, it doesn't just have to be Ronek Park, I think we can say that about a lot of these quickly built properties.

But he does talk about how there was that sense of community because all these people that came from New York City, they had, they had similar jobs, they had kids at the same time, they're filling up the schools. And one of the things that did happen, though, I think, is that those people that had the good paying jobs, and then were like, hey, this was my starter house, now I'm gonna move on to something larger, that they left to the community. And during that time, they started to lose a little bit of that sense of community that they had built up in the early years. And Mr. Burnett has since passed away.

Actually, it was just last year, which is why as difficult as it was recording all of those oral history videos, I'm so grateful that we had finally gotten them up to the town's YouTube channel. Because that's instead of me telling his story. It's him.

Eugene Burnett: The army at that time was it was a segregated army. Then determining for me that there was a problem with race. And some of the things that were done was just terrible. And they stay with me to this day. But the experience overall was good for me in that it made a man of me. 

I saw this advertisement for Levittown. And I decided that my wife and I, we were talking about getting married, and we didn't want to raise our children in New York City, because at that time, drugs had come into the community and we had lost some of our friends to heroin. And so we got in the car, we drove out there. And we looked at the house and of course, living in an apartment and seeing this. Everything was brand new and so forth and so on. So So I went up to the salesman, and I said, “I like the house and I'm interested. And do you have an application, whatever that I could fill out?” And he looked at me and he paused for a moment, and he said, “It's not me. But the owners of this development have not as yet decided to sell these homes to negros.” I was shattered by that, I never expected that. 

Also, I saw that advertisement, also, I think, perhaps in The Daily Mirror. And I, it said “regardless of race, creed, or color,” so I followed up on that and went to the same procedure, and of course, was accepted and eventually bought the house and got married and moved in there. I think it was in November of 1950. 

Very undeveloped. Dirt roads, no sidewalks, no streetlights, houses, that will build these flat tops. They had flat roofs, refrigerator, electric stove, it was an all electric kitchen, washing machine, you gotta understand, from my age, what I saw, you know, women scrubbed and washed clothes, and we had ice boxes, and we had wind-up record players. And the first advancement middle class thing that came in was “The Combo,” they called it, which had a record player, and radio. You know, that was a big deal. And all these things were already readily available when you moved into Ronek Park that we didn't have in the apartments in New York.

For $38 hours. That includes the taxes, insurance, the mortgage interest, everything $38. But I mean, that sounds like a steal. But as a police sergeant, my take home pay was $149.50 every two weeks. That… things cost different those days. I remember saying to myself, if I could just make $2 an hour, I'd be rich.

That was my goal to make $2 an hour. 

Lauren: Now, these examples of housing developments like Levittown, that practiced the policy of only accepting whites into the communities was not unique. It happened all over. And it wasn't illegal. It wasn't until the late 60s when the Fair Housing Act of 1968 actually prohibited housing discrimination by law. So, you know, from the time when Eugene Burnett moved in in 1950, it's almost two decades before this practice is deemed illegal. 

Eurgene Burnett: As I look back and reflect, it was a feeling of community. The people of - African American veterans had nowhere else to go. So what you had, what came there to buy these homes were educated people well to do people, you know, and it was a nice community.

Featured image: Chinatown, Manhattan. Image: NYC Tourism.com

Marker of Focus: Chinatown and Little Italy Historic District, Manhattan.

Guests: Dr. John Kuo Wei (Jack) Tchen, Director, Clement A. Price Institute on Ethnicity, Culture, and the Modern Experience at Rutgers University Newark and Ashley Hopkins- Benton, Senior Historian and Curator at the New York State Museum.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading and Resources:

New York Before Chinatown: Orientalism and the Shaping of American Culture, 1776-1882 by John Kuo Wei Tchen (2001).

Back to the Basics: Who Is Researching and Interpreting for Whom? by John Kuo Wei Tchen, The Journal of American History (1994).

New York Chinatown History Project by John Kuo Wei Tchen (1987).

Museum of Chinese in America

Welcome to Chinatown

Teaching Resources:

Museum of Chinese in America: Learn

New-York Historical Society Curriculum Library: Chinese American Exclusion/Inclusion

Library of Congress: Asian American and Pacific Islanders Heritage Month Resources for Teachers

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. In honor of the upcoming Asian American [and] Pacific Islander Heritage Month, we're going to be talking about a marker located at 151 Mulberry Street in New York City, which is in the borough of Manhattan, and the text reads, Chinatown and Little Italy Historic District has been placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 2010, by the United States Department of the Interior, William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2022.

Now, this marker is not one of the traditional blue and gold markers that we usually talk about. And in this case, if you have a structure that's been listed on the National Register of Historic Places, you can apply to the Pomeroy Foundation. Because when a structure is nominated for the National Register, there is no form of signage that you are given as part of being listed. So this offers a chance to have signage, which alerts the public to the fact that this is an important historic structure. In this case, the plaque itself is on the side of the building; because it's in New York City, it would be really difficult because of the congested sidewalks to have a marker on a traditional pole, like we see in a lot of other places. So in New York City, it's much more common to see plaques on the side of the building. And actually, the building that it's on is the Italian American Museum. As mentioned, it is the Chinatown and Little Italy Historic District. And we'll talk a little bit later about why those two communities are in the same location. 

The marker itself was applied for by the Two Bridges Neighborhood Council that was founded in 1955. The neighborhood is bordered by the Brooklyn and Manhattan bridges and the East River. And at that time period in the 50s. Tensions were high, there was gang violence, and this area was becoming one of the city's first racially integrated neighborhoods. And so the neighborhood council was created to try to resolve some of the conflicts and to serve as a channel for communication among settlement houses, churches and community leaders. And this information is according to their website. 

So let's go back and talk about Chinatown - which is going to be our focus this month - and talk a little bit about the origins of Manhattan's Chinatown.

Devin: Manhattan's Chinatown is one of the oldest in the country. It's one of nine in the city right now. It was the oldest and the largest for many years. It's located in lower Manhattan and you mentioned Little Italy, which abuts Chinatown on the northern side. 

When we think about Chinese immigration history in the United States, the first wave of immigrants really happens around the Gold Rush on the West Coast. And it was not until kind of after that point in the 1850s, it's estimated that the first Chinese immigrants began coming to New York City. And the reason that they came was the reason that New York City became such an immigrant hub: it was because of the port, right? And so because of this port culture, not only did Chinatown exist and more and more Chinese immigrants began to settle in the lower part of Manhattan; also, the Lower East Side, as I mentioned, became an ethnic neighborhood for Jewish immigrants and other immigrants from Eastern Europe. And then of course, Little Italy. All of these people were associated, at least early on, with the Port of New York City. Many of them either worked on the port or had businesses that served people who did work in the ports. When we think of Chinatown, many of the early settlers there, opened businesses such as laundries, restaurants, stores that often served the port community. 

In the 1850s and 1860s, as more Chinese began settling, there became a kind of racist backlash against the settlers, many of whom were working class. So there began to be conflict between working-class white Americans and these Chinese immigrants and other immigrants. But specifically, there was bigotry directed at Chinese immigrants, because they were seen as representing many of the concepts that were false concepts, but that Americans believed when they thought about “The Orient,” or Asia that, that these cultures were a decadent culture, that they were not Christian. They had different religions, different customs, they dressed differently. So there was a kind of an easy way to think about othering Chinese immigrants. And this led in many ways to the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, which specifically put quotas essentially slamming the door on Chinese labor coming to this nation at all. 

To get more context on the origins of Chinatown, and on the Chinese Exclusion Act, and its effect on immigration, as well as the community that already existed in New York City. We spoke with Dr. Jack Tchen.

Dr. Jack Tchen: Hello, my name is Jack Tchen. My full published name is John Kuo Wei Tchen. My work has really been about building capacity in communities that have especially been disenfranchised from really historical records. And as historians, we know that what's written down and what is kept in libraries and archives are what are oftentimes the stuff that history books are written from. I worked on a - well it's now a book - called New York Before Chinatown. And it's really about the role of Orientalism in the shaping of American culture, from 1776 to 1882, which is when the Chinese Exclusion Act was passed. Most Americans don't know the Chinese were excluded from this country. Technically, that was repealed in 1943, when the US and China became allies in the fight against Japan. It wasn't effectively repealed until 1965 and 68. Because in ‘43, the laws defaulted to the 1924 Immigration Act, which is really an act as defined by the eugenics movement. The eugenics movement is a part of the history that I've also worked on; [its] something that we don't understand, and it's ongoing legacy and the impact on not just the kind of attitude that was dominant in scientific racism against African Americans, against indigenous people and really segregating them from the culture. But of course, it got applied towards Chinese in 1882. And then that emboldened hardcore eugenicists, thinking that they would then enact an immigration law that would exclude the great majority of so-called “inferior” European immigrants as well. So the ‘24 quota for Chinese, 105 people were allowed a year. And so from, technically the repeal of the exclusion law, that got it, the immigration policy was defaulted to the eugenics laws. So those were not changed until ‘65 and ‘68. I go into detail because these historical forces have tremendous influences on not just whether Chinese or Asian Americans were acknowledged, but also the history collections themselves and the history profession themselves and what's collected, what's ignored. And if Chinese are excluded from this country, they're not thought to be worthy of citizenship or could be citizens, and therefore, women were excluded and families were really very marginalized. So it really explains why there's such a gap. It's an intellectual kind of black hole, where these were people who just didn't quite count and therefore they were not part of the collections.

Devin: Early historians of Chinatown such as Jack Tchen quickly realized that the community itself was marginalized within the historic record. And they realized that institutions had not been collecting material related to the history of Chinatown. The archives did not have a historical record of the people that lived there, in many ways because of the language barrier, but also because of the priorities of the collecting institutions. So when Jack Tchen and others began studying and looking at Chinatown as having its own history, they realized that this archival record did not exist. So they created the Chinatown History Project, which was one of the first community history projects in which public historians went into the community itself, and literally knocked on doors and went door to door asking for people to share their personal histories because they began the project by focusing on the laundries in Chinatown, which had not been looked at historically or studied, but were so numerous and important not only to that community, but to New York City as a whole. So, you know, it really was a groundbreaking project that has led to other similar type projects in other communities around the nation.

Dr. Jack Tchen: In terms of my own background of being a Chinese immigrant, really a Chinese refugee; As I began looking for those records, they were not to be found. At the New York Historical Society, really little bits and pieces. At the New York Public Library, bits and pieces. Oftentimes what would show would be advertising trade cards or racist caricatures in Frank Leslie’s or Harper's Magazine. So it really drove a curiosity and a need to begin building archives and collections personally, but then also, as we started the New York Chinatown History Project, to begin building up those archives. So I started out really, as someone doing community-based history. So, my start really was as a public historian as someone also collecting materials and I got a PhD at NYU, in American history, but also: in thinking through questions of public history and a dialogue approach towards history, which is really acknowledging those who have been left out of history and how to include their records and their voices and their experiences. 

I should say that I'm not from New York, nor near Chinatown. Originally, I'm from the Midwest. And I arrived in New York in 1975 and began volunteering at a community arts and cultural organization called Basement Workshop. And one of the first people I met was Fay Chiang, someone who hasn't received her full due in terms of the heroic roles that she played just in building the Basement Workshop and writing grants and doing the kind of unsung work that oftentimes women do. But in particular, she was also this fantastically talented poet, and visual artist. So it turns out that besides those qualities about her, she was also the daughter of a laundry family. I began really thinking deeply about: what does it mean to have been part of the thousands of laundry families that really built up New York's Chinatown? So I had the eyes of an outsider, but also working with people from the community itself. So, I began kind of digging deeper and deeper and looking at books, reading, studying, and realized that that history had not been really documented from the community's point of view. So that became the basis of our, of our work. I was able to work with some other folks who are just kind of freshly minted from college, to form the New York Chinatown History Project and to write a proposal that actually got a significant size grant for people who are willing to work for very little creating a new organization, going into dumpsters. 

And at the time, our office was on East Broadway, which was kind of a transitional neighborhood area. And it's just at Chatham Square, one of those historic squares that has largely been forgotten by people today. The Bowery goes up from there, the early history of New York is very much the Bowery where working class folks were living, but also a very intermingled community of African Americans, early Chinese. So what was happening at Chatham Square was that the leases for many of these stores were coming up and the leases had 99 year leases. So this was a material culture history that was not registering for the New York Historical Society or the Museum of the City of New York. Quite frankly, it was only the local folks who cared about these places, because they had been, of course, part of the everyday life. And even then, [       ] Pharmacy, which is the oldest pharmacy in the city, at the time, was just being tossed out; all their storefronts, all the stuff inside. So what I realized is that, well, Chinatown was never strictly Chinatown, it was always part of the port culture. And the stores that were closing down, were emblematic of that mixture of what was going on. So from the very beginning, we never represented Chinatown as an isolated, segregated community that only cared about itself. It was always intermingled with Irish, with African Americans, with - I heard lots of stories about the Jewish community coming in, having meals. We weren't intending to collect lots of stuff. But as the stores start closing down, I just could not bear the thought of these things being thrown out. Certainly [to the] uptown historical societies, this is too lowly, really, quite frankly, for them to collect. We did strike an early relationship with the [New York] State Museum, which I think at the time really was one of the few places that really valued the items that were in some of these stores. So we opened at the at the New York State Museum. And we also opened at the New York Public Library on 42nd Street before they had a gallery. We were really one of the early shows that happened in their entry lobby area. So we got some great coverage from the New York Times. And in that way, I think the New York Times coverage, ironically, also got the Chinatown community to take this group of young people that not all of whom were from the community itself, right? We started being taken more seriously. Because we were able to document the history of Chinese laundry workers, which is not the history of Chinatown, per se, but of those ten thousand or so laundry workers who were in the metro region. And it's really the laundry workers who were the early financial base for Chinatown itself.

Devin: Because there was no repository for this material, there was nowhere for them to possibly donate it, whether it be to a museum or to another institution. So the New York State Museum agreed to take material from three general goods stores, and combine them into one exhibit that would focus on the Tuck High store, which was at the time 101 years old, was closing, the family was moving away from the business, and the museum decided to interpret Tuck High as it would look in the 1930s using a collection of material from three different stores. We spoke with curator Ashley Hopkins Benton about the Tuck High exhibit.

Ashley Hopkins Benton: My name is Ashley Hopkins Benton. I'm a senior historian and curator at the New York State Museum. I focus on social history, especially women's history, immigration, LGBTQ plus history. And I'm also interested in our toys, glass and ceramics collections. 

The Tuck High store was founded in 1879 by a Chinese immigrant Feng Wen Lee. And it was kind of a general dry goods store. They had a number of different products through their history. They carried herbs and some food items and supplies like walks and cooking tools, and some ceramics. But it was also very much a community center in Chinatown. It was a place that men that also worked in Chinatown would go to socialize, to get a meal. They had a pocket that served kind of as a post office, so for men that were working in Chinatown and trying to communicate with their relatives in China, but maybe didn't have a permanent address, they would receive mail there. They also provided services where they would write letters for people that were not literate. 

And so it was located originally at 19 Mott Street and it was there for 50 years. And then in 1929 It moved to 24 Mott Street, which is the location that the museum ultimately collected. 

By 1980, Chinatown was changing. There was gentrification, the rents were going up astronomically. And the Lee family - at that point it was Wah On Lee and Coon On Lee - decided that they couldn't keep the business anymore and they were interested in selling it. And thankfully there were people that were really interested in Chinatown's history that were able to make the connection with the New York State Museum. And so the museum went down and met with the Lees and observed their business and ultimately decided to purchase large parts of the store: the fixtures and some of the merchandise, and the equipment, the cash register, the cooking equipment, and then other parts were gifted by the Lee family. And while they were in the process of making that collection, and working with them, they found out that there were two other stores that had recently closed, so they also acquired the contents of Sun Goon Shing and Quong Yee Wo. And the exhibit that you see today in the museum is a reconstruction of the front room of the Tuck High store filled with the materials from those three stores.

Devin: Maybe you know this, or maybe not, what does Tuck High mean?

Ashley: It means “high integrity.”

Devin: You know, we deal in the museum world with material culture. And so what does that tell us about both the store but also the community?

Ashley: Well, I think it tells us some of the ways that they were supporting the Chinese community, ways that they could harken back to their Chinese heritage and really retain those customs. So there is a large collection from one of the stores of calligraphy paper and calligraphy supplies and writing elements. So that's one big theme. Um, there's also a very large collection of herbs and medicines that would be used in traditional Chinese medicine. And the store also employed a druggist or - he was actually referred to as the drug man - who worked in the back and would talk to you about your ailments and help prescribe various things that would help you feel better. 

The stores that we know about, you know Tuck High closed in 1980, Quang Yee Wo, closed earlier that year. And then Sun Goon Shing actually closed around 1972. So - and was warehoused. So I think there were so many of these stories happening all at once that it was a wake-up call. There's some really great photos that the curators took, like as the shop was closing. So, because of the rising rent, there was a hard fast deadline of: this is the day the Lees need to be out. But they also were interested in operating the business up until the last day. So the curators were literally there like taking pieces of the building out while the Lee family was still selling materials propped up on boxes with a board and selling to the regulars. 

Chinatown is right now undergoing another wave of gentrification and rising rents. So there are a number of stores and restaurants that have been around for generations that have closed in the last couple of years. And that's caused a lot of change, again in Chinatown, but there are still family businesses that harken back to some of these traditions and do serve as a community stopping place. And it's a place where you can get a variety of goods. And what's really interesting as an observer who's up here in Albany rather than down in Chinatown very much is that a lot of them have an amazing social media presence and are sharing their stories and how they're serving the community and the ways that they're trying to preserve their own history as well through social media. So that's really fun. So K.K. Discount is one, which is a really kind of general store that sells supplies for a variety of things. But they've also worked to kind of keep the community together and to share about the good things that are happening in Chinatown. And then another example that I was thinking about is Wing on Wo [&Co.], which was actually located just next door to where Tuck High ultimately was located and is now the oldest continuously operating store in Chinatown. And through their W.O.W. Project, they're promoting the Chinatown community and keeping it vibrant and the businesses vibrant. 

When Tuck High came to the museum, there was really a great amount of communication between the museum staff and various people in Chinatown. So not only the Lee family, but the families associated with the other stores and people that were working on Chinatown history. And there is a great trove in our collection of all of the reports that were in Chinese language newspapers when it opened in 1981 in the museum. So that was a great excitement. And as I said, continued communication between Albany and Chinatown. There was also a lot of excitement, just in the reports that the museum was collecting the space before it was even open. There was a New York Times article and there were numerous letters from people all over the country, some of whom, as I said, visited Tuck High with their families when they were younger, and we're just writing to say “I'm so glad you're preserving this history. This is my family memories.” But one of those was actually from a gentleman in Albany who had traveled with his family regularly to visit the store. He was writing because he was excited that we were saving it. But he had also read that there was interest in including mannequins in the space, which was an exhibit technique that the museum regularly did, to people our spaces and kind of show the way that people interacted with them. Those mannequins that are in the museum are cast from real people. And he offered himself up as the model for the cast that would be made for Tuck High. So the druggist that you see is actually a man that lived in Albany, who had been to Tuck High in his younger years.

Lauren: It's fascinating to me as a public historian, and probably you as well, Devin, that the work Dr. Tchen was doing in the 1970s, and 80s, is so far ahead of his time, it seems like as we're talking about it, this is a project that could be going on currently. And when you look at the field of public history, one of the things that we'd like to focus on is helping communities tell their own stories. And it takes a lot of effort to do that, you need to gain trust, you need to build relationships with the people in those communities. And if you want any hope of being able to fill those holes that are in our archives, this work needs to be done now before these communities disappear.

 Devin: I think that's absolutely true. And I think part of the process is not only building the relationships, but sometimes it's getting the communities themselves to understand the importance of their own history. Dr. Tchen told us, it was a struggle at times for the Chinatown History Project to get some of the residents of Chinatown to, to understand the value of their own history. And, and that's often the case, as we see in communities that we work with across New York State. 

Lauren: I know that sometimes when I go into an oral history with someone I want to speak with about a particular event in the past, some people tend to think that their experiences are not important or even worthy of an oral history, you know, and so I think one of our jobs is to help people realize that their stories are worthy of being told and collected. And to make them realize everyone's story is a piece of the larger cultural fabric, and that all of those representations need to be included for us to have a larger picture of where we are today. So even when communities think that their story is just a tiny sliver of the overall pie. It's the job of the public historian to help them realize that their stories should be collected, and they do have meaning.

Dr. Tchen: As the Chinatown History Project began to develop, and we became a museum, I really began thinking about these questions in a larger way about the idea of a dialogue-driven museum as opposed to a collections driven museum or an academically-defined Museum, right? How can we begin to formulate what's important and how people understand things from their point of view, and to really privilege the community language. It's really from that kind of lived and embodied experience that these values really became important to me. You know, our first name for the New York Chinatown History project was the Center for Community Studies. And I really do believe that place matters, communities matter, and that ultimately, it's through public history more than academic history, that people get a sense of place, community meaning, community building and being able to locate themselves in these stories.

Marker of Focus: Grace Leach, Essex County

Guests:

Laurie Rankin, President of the Adirondack 46ers club, and Jane Meader Nye and Tony Solomon, Adirondack 46ers club members and friends of Grace.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading:

The Adirondack High Peaks and the Forty-Sixers(1970), edited by Grace Leach Hudowalski.

The Mountains Will Wait for You, (2013), a film about Grace Leach Hudowalski by Fredrick T. Schwoebel and narrated by Johnny Cash.

Hiking the Adirondack 46 High Peaks: A Guide to the Region’s High Peaks(2024), by Johnathan Zaharek.

The Adirondacks: A History of America’s First Wilderness (1998), by Paul Schneider.

Teaching Resources:

The Adirondack Experience: The Museum on Blue Mountain Lake Educational Resources

The Adirondack Mountain Club School Outreach

The records of the Adirondack 46ers club, 1940-2013, New York State Library

The Wild Center School Programs

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. In honor of Women's History Month, we're looking at a marker located in the town of Ticonderoga in Essex County. The marker is located at 10 Montcalm Street, and the text reads: Grace Leach, born near this site in 1906. She became the first woman to climb the Adirondack 46 high peaks, completing her climbs in 1937. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2016. 

Grace Leach is also better known by her married name, Grace Hudowalski And she is a fascinating woman. Although, as a young girl Grace grew up in Ticonderoga, her parents thought it was important that she moved to Troy so that she could attend a high school. So in the early 1920s, her family moved to Troy where she attended school, however, her father operated a hotel in Minerva, so she was never too far removed from the North Country. 

In the summer of 1922, when Grace was a teenager, she joined a group of young people who were going to hike Mount Marcy, and this is her first experience climbing one of the high peaks, which we should probably say is the 46ers are considered any of the high peaks in the Adirondacks over 4000 feet. And there's a little leeway with that, too. But that is - the general idea is - that all of the high peaks over 4000 feet that they knew about at the time, are included. So Grace joins this group and she climbs Marcy, and it's a hard climb, it's not a nice day out. She mentions that, you know, a lot of the time she's on all fours, and it's really difficult. And some of them turn back but she doesn't and from the top clouds part and she looks down and she can see Lake Tear of the Clouds, which is the source of the Hudson River.

Devin: The 46ers - as an active organization - began in February of 1937, when they were called the 46ers of Troy, because that's where Grace and her husband, Edward were living and others who were very interested. But the organization itself traces its roots as far back as 1918, when Robert and George Marshall - who were New York City gentlemen who were interested in the Adirondacks, because they spent their summers there - climbed their first high peak, which was Whiteface Mountain. In 1922, Robert Marshall publishes kind of the first book about the high peaks that describes them and, and as you noted, there is some leeway. Some of them are not quite 4000 feet, but most of them are right up to Mount Marcy, which is the highest elevation in New York State at 5344 feet. So the 46ers kind of started as an unofficial group of people who are very interested in climbing the high peaks in the Adirondacks and climbing them all. In 1837. They formed the official club of which Grace was the first president And to learn more about that we spoke with current Adirondack 46 or President Laurie Rankin.

Laurie Rankin: So I am Laurie Rankin, I am the president - current president - of the Adirondack 46ers, I am member number 5525 with the WV after my name and number. The W stands for having climbed all of the peaks in winter, as well as in the three seasons. And the V stands for having given at least 146 hours of volunteer service to the organization. 

So the organization is - in our mission statement - dedicated to people who have climbed off 46 high peaks, but also who are very involved in education in preservation of the environment. And we also are working with the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation on some of their environmental goals. Mostly those have to do with stewarding and with trail crew work. And then finally, we also are very involved in supporting other organizations that hold similar missions in the Adirondack Park. So we actually go back to an earlier organization to talk about Grace and how she came to be the very first president of the Adirondack 46ers back in 1948. So Grace, as a young girl, attended a church in Troy, as did some other folks. And they'd heard about these people, [the] Marshalls and Clark, who had climbed the mountains in the Adirondacks. And they thought, “Wouldn't this be a great thing for the kids to do here and Sunday school?” And so they started climbing and taking some of the kids with them. And this young Grace had heard about this. And she thought, “Well, wow, that's something I would like to do.” But of course, at the time, this was not something that girls or women did very often. And with the support of her father, in particular, Grace decided to give it a try. And so as a girl, she climbed one of those mountains. And she wasn't sure if she could do it a few times, she was worried about keeping up with the lads. But she did it. And she found great joy in doing that. Eventually, she continued to climb the involvement in that church, which was actually the Grace Methodist Church in Troy, was the original start of an organized group of people who were dedicated to climbing those peaks. And so it was a fairly small group of people at the time. That is kind of where Grace got started. The organization itself, of course, started actually in 1948. And by then she and her husband were married. And she was the first woman to have climbed all the peaks, only the ninth person to do it. And the very first woman.

Lauren: It's important to remember that at the time that Grace and Ed were hiking and starting this club, it's not the 46 that we know today, there weren't paths that were guided by trail markers. You didn't have trail crews and stewards that were in there making sure that you didn't have a mile worth of mud or you know, they were moving The Boulders out of the way or or downed trees in a storm. We have a much easier climb nowadays, then, Grace and her cohorts did back in the 20s and 30s. And Grace actually finished her 46 In the year 1937. She finished on Esther, when she was just over 30 years old.

Devin: I think that's a great point that you make about how the high peaks are different today. One of the things that the Adirondack 46ers and their predecessor, the 46ers of Troy really did as a club - it wasn't just about climbing the mountains and getting your number and your name in the record book. It was about things like preserving the mountains in their pristine shape, they did work on trails and also did work to not create trails, because sometimes when trails are created on these kind of high peaks, they can cause environmental damage due to runoff and things like that. So they actually worked on guiding people to the tops of these mountains without specific trails so that they would not be trails kind of dug into the surroundings. But they've done all sorts of work many publications and really Grace. Even beyond her presidency, as the first club president became the institutional historian for over 50 years.

Laurie Rankin: Grace was a very organized individual to begin with. So when it started, she was like, “Well, now how are we going to put this group of people together?” And to hear her tell the story of even trying to determine how to organize, so that we know who climbed first and who climbed second, and things like that was something that she was very thoughtful about. And so she actually went by the dates by which people completed climbing the 46 peaks. As she continued through her journey, she just simply enjoyed listening to what other people were doing in their climbing journey. She loves to support, she loves to hear the stories, she has said, there are several famous quotes that she said, one which came from her dad, and was simply “It wasn't about getting to the top, but it was how you enjoyed the climb along the way.” And she wanted to hear about that, she truly did. And she felt that it was a gathering of people, this club, this organization that had this commonality of how they made that climb. And she wanted that information as part of the record. So that it wasn't just simply giving somebody a number, and saying “Congratulations!” - That there was more to it. And of course, in the early years, that was something that she was able to keep up with very, very well. But as the organization began to grow, it became really, really a full time job, if you will. But again, she was very dedicated to it. And she loved to truly love to hear what people had experienced when they were out there climbing. And not always the good things, sometimes the things that didn't go so well as well. So her boots, we don't say her shoes, but we say her boots or hiking boots, eventually had to be filled by several people. And because Grace corresponded with all these people, we call those folks the Correspondents. And letter writing has sort of gone a little bit out of vogue. And we correspond most often electronically now. But it still retains the same important information that Grace wanted to hear, and wanted to share with others. And that is about that experience, not just to say, “I got to the top of Mount Marcy on Tuesday, such and such a date.”  And, “Here's your finish number.” It was all the special stuff in between that connected them, and still does.

Lauren:  I think it's such a great way that she was able to take hiking, and bring it away from just the physicality, the athleticism, how fast can you get to the top, right, that's not the point of becoming a 46er. Because there are a lot of, you know, strong, able people who can run up; And I think they use the term sometimes, you see the term “bagging a peak,” right? Because they're trying to get to the 46. But for Grace, it was so much more than just the strength that it took to climb the mountain, the physical strength, it's the relationships formed along the way. It's the memories that are made. And that includes the failures and the triumphs. There's lots of times that Mother Nature throws curveballs in the way of hikers where you think you're going to be able to get to the top of this mountain today. And that doesn't happen. And I think Grace had that knowledge from an early age because of the way she talks about what her dad said to her as a young girl. But the idea that it's about the memories that you make along the way. It's these relationships formed between hikers. And Grace's way of capturing all of that, and making the hikers actually reflect is by writing these letters. I mean, I think it was mentioned that by the time she finished, she had written over 60,000 letters. I mean, that that's an amazing accomplishment. And we're not talking about email here. You know how many emails you can fire off in a day. She's actually going to the post office, collecting these letters, reading them all and thoughtfully writing back to these people. And there's this wonderful archive that's been created about all of these 1000s of people and there's 1000s of members of this club now. And they have a written legacy about what it's like to climb these peaks. And I think reflecting on that also is one of the reasons that they're so interested in preserving them. 

When Grace first started writing back to climbers, there were a good number of them. But the club grew very quickly. And it became a bit overwhelming to Grace in her later years; she was getting older, the letters were just coming in faster and larger quantities. So she started to have some helpers. And I'm lucky enough in my office as the Saratoga County Historian, that one of my volunteers Jane Meader Nye, who is 94 years old, and has been volunteering in my office since the 1990s. She was a friend of Grace. And her husband, Tony Solomon was also a friend. And they were helpers. They met Grace because they have their love of hiking. And I sat down and spoke with them to learn some of their favorite memories about Grace Hudowalski.

Jane Meade Nye: My name is Jane Meader Nye, I'm local, I grew up in Schenectady, New York, I was born in Ellis Hospital, so I never got far from home. But I've wandered all over the world. 

Tony Solomon: My name’s Tony Solomon. And when I retired, I was also at the time a 46er. And being bored, I contacted the president of a club, and I said, “If you need any volunteers, I'd like to help.” And she said, “That’s good! Grace lives at nine Cardinal Avenue. And what we want you to do is you go in the back door, the back door is open, there'll be somebody there by the name of Mindy, and Mindy will introduce you to Grace.”

The reason why she needed help, she was inundated with work, answering letters, and so we would help her with the letters. Grace felt that if you climb a mountain, it's good enough to write about it, tell us about it. And if you wanted to be a 46er, or you wrote to Grace, you said:  “Dear Grace, I'm starting to climb 46 peaks.” And she would send you a mountain list where you'd write your mountains down. And she didn't require this, but she would appreciate a letter every time he climbed a mountain or time to climb two or three mountains to tell her about it. She also would like - if it's a child - and have the child write their own letter, she loved having letters from children, we'd help her go over the letters. And she'd write the replies pretty much. But we sometimes would like some. When we started helping Grace, there were about 200 new 46ers every year, and these people would be writing in and she put all the letters and organize them and they'd be in order of finish, because every 46er gets a climbing number, based on when they finished. So we would do that. And then she also required that everything would be put in a loose leaf notebook and you had to make two copies of it. One copy stayed with the 46ers. The other copy was - at the end of the year - went to the State Library. 

And then Grace lived at Cardinal Ave for about six months of the year and then she moved to her cottage - actually was nice cottage - up in Schroon Lake, called The Boulders so when she moved up there, Jane and I, we went to the Boulders to help her. And on the way up to the Boulders we would stop at the post office in Adirondack, New York to pick up her mail and then go to The Boulders and she would make us lunch - usually it was toasted cheese. 

Jane: Grilled Cheese. 

Tony: We’d spend the day there. And we developed a really good relationship.

Lauren: One of the interesting stories that came out of my conversation with Jane and Tony was about Grace's connection to Noah John Rondeau, who was known as the Hermit of Cold River. Grace met him when she and her husband went in to climb the Sewards - and where he was in the woods was not an easy place to get to. It was a 14-mile walk and she and her husband went in he offered to help them find their way across the swamp to the mountain that they were climbing at the time, and on their way back offered to make them a cup of coffee and Grace talks about this experience as part of the documentary called The Mountains Will Wait for You that talks about Grace's legacy with the Adirondack 46ers, she also mentions that after that every year on his birthday, she would bring a birthday cake in.

Tony: There was a hermit that lived up in the cold river and his name was Noah John Rondeau. And he made a home there. 

Jane: Very primitive. 

Tony: Very, very primitive camp. I mean, this is a very difficult place to get to. I mean, it was a long, long hike from any place. And Grace - and some of the other 46ers - have gone there once. She had gone back again, several times. And she would carry a birthday cake.

Jane: Every year, every year.

Tony: They had a hurricane in 1950. A terrible, terrible hurricane. And it did a lot of damage up in the Adirondacks. And the Conservation Department wanted Noah out of there for years. But he wouldn't go and they didn't have, I guess... 

Jane: …the ability to make him. 

Tony: Yes. And pretty soon after the hurricane. They got him out. And he never went back. People knew about him. I don't know how but they did. I mean, I remember as a kid I knew about him. Evidently, she went in there by herself.

Jane: From what I've put together, she went by herself. 

Tony: It would be three days for us. I mean, two nights and three days. It's a long hike. I mean, she… I can't believe she did it in a day.

Lauren: With a birthday cake in her hand. 

Tony: I can't believe she did it. I mean, but… She did.

Lauren: Another great event in Grace's life was the 60th anniversary of finishing her 46th, which happened on August 26 1937, on top of Esther. And for the 60th anniversary of that Grace was brought to Whiteface. And still at that time, even in her older years, she was determined to climb to the top by herself.

Tony: Somebody was always coming up with ideas, and they still come up with ideas. And so we put a 46er on each one of the summits. And I climbed Whiteface -that was the one that I climbed. And then Jane drove Grace up Whiteface. And the first surprise was that Grace worked for the State. And she had a really good job with publicity and, and they gave her, when she retired, this silver medallion that enabled her entrance into any state building or park or wherever. So instead of paying, she just showed the medallion, and they drove up. And I met them at the parking area, and the idea was to take the elevator up to the top. And Jane is walking up with Grace and Grace takes one look at [the elevator]. She says “I have never ridden in that elevator and I'm not gonna ride it now.”

And you know, she was like 90 years and over 90 years old at the time. 

Jane: About 93, maybe.

And there's a stairway that goes up there, and it's rather steep, and it's a quarter of a mile. And she walks up that stairway - she and Jane are going up the stairway - and I’m following behind. 

Jane: I had her pack, a small pack on my back.

Tony: A lot of people up there that day - it was probably a weekend or something - and we get up to the top and she sits on this big boulder. And the next thing we know somebody had contacted Channel 5 from Plattsburgh and they’re interviewing her, but that - oh! And then - I’d forgotten - and afterwards we went back to her camp at The Boulders at Schroon Lake and then everybody that had climbed a mountain came back there and we had a rather nice celebration

Jane: That we did. 

Tony: Yeah, that was good. It was a lot of… a lot of fun.

Lauren: Grace passed away in 2004 when she was 98 years old, but her legacy lives on. Her presence is felt so much so that some of her fellow hikers and 46ers went through a grueling, decade-long process to get one of the high peaks renamed after her. And after about 12 years, the peak East Dix was finally renamed Grace Peak.

Laurie:  That was a very, very long process. And I will say that the credit to that goes to Mr. Doug Arnold, who was just fearless and going out there and meeting the very stringent criteria of the USGS in order to rename a mountain. And there was tons of legalese, if you will, that had to be followed. But aside from that, there was also - he had to prove that there really was a support locally for the renaming of this and then at the same time, he had to prove to people what an important person Grace was, and why she deserved to have her name on this peak, so it was extremely involved. It was very lengthy. And you had to maintain that momentum and that support during that time frame. And so my involvement was, was really just minute, behind the scenes, here or there and trying to get people to attend public meetings, those kinds of things. Doug really is the one who gets all of the credit for that.

Lauren: It shows how dedicated Grace was and how much of her time was spent, because she had a spiritual connection with the mountains. And that's something that she wanted to foster with others. And she encouraged not only women to write letters, but the men had to write their own letters. And she talks about how sometimes, you know, men didn't want to write letters, but she made them write. You know, she didn't want the wife to write for both of them. She wanted to hear individual experiences. And even when young children were hiking, they were drawing pictures, even if they couldn't write, they would dictate to their parents, but sometimes included pictures. It really seems like, you know, she was able to take the joy that she felt on the mountains and spread it to others, and that the joy she received from reading these letters, and, you know, living others’ experience in the mountains was really what what kept her going and living till 98 and continuing to do this work, and then passing it on to others like Jane and Tony and other Correspondents now. And even though they use email, the sentiment is the same; people are still documenting their experiences in the high peaks and sending it in to become a part of this kind of unique club.

Tony: She was the organization I mean, she was with it right from the beginning. She was the one that you wrote to when you wanted to start to climb, she was the one that presented  your certificate to you, when you came to the 46er banquet in May to get your climbing number. It's… Grace was the organization; she made the rules.

Laurie: I think that one of the other things that I liked about Grace, and I really like about the 46er organization is we have tried very hard to keep the traditions and the history alive. We really like our new climbers to know who Grace was, we really want them to know what she gave to the organization. And a quote that I do remember of hers was that “We don't use titles in the mountains,” she would say. We are all climbers, and we are all out there joyfully. And we don't give titles to one another. And we've tried to remain pretty humble, I think, and followed in her footsteps that way as well. 

When we were celebrating Grace's birthday, several years ago, we were hiking each of us to different mountains of the 46. And Grace's favorite bird was the hummingbird. And I - and my husband - hiked to the summit of Mount Colden. And it was a very cold, rainy day, and there's not a lot of blooming plants at the top of a mountain. And yet, we were greeted by a hummingbird at the summit of that mountain. And this was after Grace had passed and, and I kind of thought to myself, “Wow, she's here.” And so I hope in the short time that I've been able to help the organization that I have kept Grace's words in the back of my mind. And that visit that she made to me on Colden.

Marker of Focus: Schooner "Amistad", Suffolk County

Guests:

Dr. Marcus Rediker, author of The Amistad Rebellion: An Atlantic Odyssey of Slavery and Freedom and producer of the film Ghosts of Amistad: In the Footsteps of the Rebels, and Dr. Georgette Grier-Key, Executive Director and Chief Curator of the Eastville Community Historical Society.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading:

Marcus Rediker, The Amistad Rebellion: An Atlantic Odyssey of Slavery and Freedom, 2012.

Howard Jones, Mutiny on the Amistad: The Saga of a Slave Revolt and Its Impact on American Abolition, Law, and Diplomacy, 1997.

Alexs Pate, Amistad,1997.

Teaching Resources:

Consider the Source New York Slavery Resources—New York State Archives Partnership Trust

Ghosts of Amistad: In the Footsteps of the Rebels Educator Resources

Discovering Amistad Teacher Resources

PBS Amistad Lesson Plan

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian. 

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. In honor of Black History Month, on this episode, we are heading out to Long Island. The marker of focus is located very close to the shore, near 185 Soundview Drive in Montauk. The title is Schooner “Amistad” and the text reads: In 1839, illegally enslaved Africans subdued captors on ship, came ashore nearby, then jailed in CT. Finally freed by U.S. Supreme Court in 1841. William G Pomeroy Foundation 2022. 

The story of the Amistad may be familiar to many of our listeners, because in the late 1990s, Steven Spielberg produced a major motion picture, which followed this story. And the story is of a ship that was carrying illegally enslaved Africans heading to a plantation in Cuba. These Africans rose up and revolted successfully against their white captors, and attempted to sail the ship back to Africa. 

Devin: The Amistad case is interesting in a lot of ways, we have to realize that in 1839, and the era in which they were stolen from their homes in Sierra Leone, which was a British territory, the slave trade had been made illegal by the British, but there were still slavers bringing enslaved Africans across the Middle Passage to the United States, to the colonies in the Caribbean. So that was very much still happening. In the case of the Amistad - which itself was not a slave ship, it was a schooner - it was transporting 49 enslaved men and four children from one part of Cuba to the other. These men and these children had been purchased by two plantation owners. 

So, in Spain and Spanish colonies at this time, slavery was still legal. So again, you have this complexity of violating British rules and laws, as far as the slave trade from their territories is concerned, we have the same complexity in the United States at this time: in southern states, slavery is very legal in many northern states, but at all, it's illegal. So this is a very complex case. The idea that this was a successful revolt at sea is something that we spoke to Dr. Marcus Rediker about.

Dr. Marcus Rediker: My name is Marcus Rediker. I am a distinguished professor of Atlantic history at the University of Pittsburgh. I have written a number of books, all of which have something very important in common: they are all what we call “history from below.” The history of ordinary people making history.

As I was writing a previous book called The Slave Ship: A Human History - seeing one revolt after another fail - in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, “Why was the Amistad rebellion successful?” What I wanted to know is: who were these people who made it? How did they actually do it? The main finding on this set of questions was that these people were from southern Sierra Leone, all 53 of them. They were from about nine or ten different ethnic groups. But they came from a region in which the wars of the slave trade were raging. And what this meant was that the men of every village had to be trained warriors. So what I learned was that the ways of warfare in southern Sierra Leone, were the key to the successful uprising. So in my view, the most important thing about the Amistad Rebellion has its origins in West Africa.

Steven Spielberg's film begins with Cinque trying to get a nail out of a piece of wood, which he can then use to pick the lock. There are actually sources that say that they broke the padlock, not picked it that they broke it. And it was crucial for me to figure out that there was not one, but two blacksmiths on board. And metallurgy in this part of West Africa was quite advanced in this period, I'm quite confident that these people knew the properties of this metal, and they knew how to break it. 

One of the principles I might say, of the kind of history I do, is that we treat ordinary working people as thinkers. So one of the things that I'm trying to figure out is, what kinds of things would the Amistad Africans have known that would have helped them to conceive, to plan, to coordinate, and to execute this uprising on board the ship? I found that one of the keys was: all of the nine or ten ethnic groups came from areas of southern Sierra Leone where a key institution of what is called the Poro society; all male, secret society that is involved in the governance of the village. But one of the things that's really important about the Poro society is that it makes the decision about when to go to war. And it turns out, I found a document, a really remarkable document; some years after the Amistad rebellion, when - after people had gone back to Sierra Leone - one of the Amistad Africans described the process of making that decision. And he said there was a big debate. And some people, led by Cinque, who, by the way, had quite serious military experience, he was on the side of the uprising, but other people were reluctant. And so basically, this person said that a speech that Cinque made, convinced people, they decided by consensus that they were going to try to rise up and capture the ship. 

Now, something else happened that made them believe that this was possible. You know, there were four children on the Amistad, the three little girls, and little boy, they were not in chains. And so they had the freedom to sort of move about the ship. And the little girls discovered a box that had cane knives in it. But it turns out that the Mende warrior fought with a cutlass, or a long knife of this kind. So imagine yourself as a Mende warrior when you find out there are all these weapons that you can use, that you're familiar with. This is like a sign from the gods that you are meant to rise up. So again, there's a military knowledge and skill that's involved in this. 

Okay, so when they did finally break onto the main deck of the Amistad, the crew are starting to fight back but two sailors who were supposed to defend the ship and this situation saw that they weren't going to win, and they threw a canoe overboard and jumped overboard to follow it. And in a matter of five minutes, the Amistad Africans had captured the ship. So they took the two enslavers on board, Ruiz and Montez, and made them their captives, and told them to sail the ship in the direction of the rising sun, sending an eastward back towards Sierra Leone. But Montez, who had been a ship captain, was very clever. And he didn't do that. He pretended to sail in that direction during the day, but at night, he sailed back toward the coast in the hope that they would be captured. With the help of the Gulf Stream, going up the Eastern American coast, they go past Fire Island, and they go up to the northern end of Long Island, a place called Culloden Point, and they decide to go ashore and they see a group of white hunters. Now one of the members of the Amistad group could speak a little bit of English, his name was Burna. They went ashore, carrying their muskets. They put their guns down, they raised their hands they said, “We mean you no harm.” 

There's one fascinating thing that this man Burna said, when he saw these hunters he asked them: “Is this slavery country?” Now, to me, that's a fascinating point because it implies the knowledge that some areas were slavery country and other areas were not. And as it happened, New York State had abolished slavery in 1827. And so the men said, “No, it's not slavery country.” And then the Amistad Africans began to rejoice and dance, and so great was their joy at having reached a place that wasn't slavery country. This is a crucial part of the story: It turns out that Montez, the enslaver, had planned to take them ashore in Charleston, what do you think would have been the outcome there? So the fact that they did make it that far north is actually a crucial part of their eventual success. But before they can communicate very much with these white hunters coming into view in the background is the U.S. brig Washington of the U.S. Navy. And the Amistad men see this, and they go rushing back to shore, but they're too late. And so they're captured by the U.S. Navy, their vessel is towed across to New London, Connecticut, where they're put in jail. And thus begins the sort of landed part of the story.

Lauren: You mentioned the complexity of the different countries having some places that had banned the slave trade and some that had not. Another complexity is salvage rights. We're dealing with a schooner that has been taken over. So when the brig Washington gets on board, they have a decision to make once they discover that it is a number of illegally kidnapped Africans, of course, they don't know that. They believe that they are enslaved Africans, which means that they would be treated as cargo. And so along with the boxes of saddles, and cloth and other things, enslaved Africans are considered to have a monetary value as part of that cargo. So the captain of the brig, Washington decides that he would probably have a better chance bringing that ship into Connecticut to claim salvage rights, because Connecticut did not fully abolish slavery until 1848. So the ship gets brought into Connecticut, and that's where the Africans are imprisoned, and that's where the court cases begin. 

Devin: The president at the time was a New Yorker, Martin Van Buren, and he was more inclined to essentially just give the enslaved Africans back to the plantation owners, give them back the boat, send them on their way and kind of move on. But the abolitionist movement who were really gaining prominence in the North of this time in New York and other northern states really saw this whole situation as an opportunity, potentially, in their wildest dreams free these enslaved people, but really strike a blow against the entire institution of slavery in this country.

Dr Marcus Rediker: New York actually plays a very important part in the Amistad rebellion. First of all, Louis Tappan - who is probably the wealthiest abolitionist of the time - Lewis Tappan took an immediate interest in this case and devoted considerable resources to it. Joshua Leavitt, the publisher of The Emancipator was based in New York, which was one of the main ways that the story became known. They rushed to New London to meet the Amistad Africans.

And that was because a rank and file abolitionist named Dwight Janes, dockside grocer, had gone on board the Amistad as soon as it came to New London, and then went and wrote letters to Tappan and all the rest, saying, look, we've got an unbelievable opportunity here for the abolitionist movement. But here's another example of the way New York mattered, the Amistad Africans spoke many different languages, but the abolitionists could not find people to communicate with them. They brought in people from three or four different ethnic groups - African ethnic groups - to see if they could speak any of the languages that the Amistad Africans could, and none of them could. So this Yale professor Josiah Gibbs, but he talked with a little girls, and they taught him to count to ten in Mende. So what did Gibbs do? He went to the waterfront of New York and walked up and down the docks, counting from one to ten in Mende to see if anybody could understand him. But these two sailors came up to him and said, “We’re Mende.” One of these was James Covey, who will end up being the main translator, who then goes immediately to the Connecticut jail. And that then allows the Amistad Africans to tell their story to the world. Before that they were, they were like an abstraction to everybody. Nobody really knew who they were, The motley crew, on the docks of New York is what made possible the breakthrough in communication.

The first thing your listeners need to know is that a jail in the first half of the 19th century is not like a jail today, they were much more open institutions. The jailer would always try to make money on the people who are in the jail. So imagine the jailers' excitement when there's this huge interest in the Amistad Africans, and people start lining up to come and walk through the jail and see them, you know, talk to them through the interpreter after James Covey is found. And so he actually - the jailer - starts charging admission. The abolitionists don't like this. But the Amistad Africans seem to have liked it because people brought them food, people gave them money. And then the other thing that happens: artists came in, these artists would, you know, one guy created a panorama of the revolt, someone else created a history of the Amistad Africans and drew portraits of quite a few of them. And so this actually helped to fuel the abolitionist cause by making them real to people.

And see, that they couldn't really be mistreated very much, because the abolitionists were in there. So they're - everything is closely watched. At times, they would be allowed to go out on New Haven common, where they would perform these amazing feats of acrobatics. And what I learned was that military agility and acrobatics was part of the training of a Mende warrior. So there was kind of a popular entertainment aspect to all this. But what's really crucial is that many people who filed through the jail would go home and write a letter to their local newspaper. And they built - through this through this contact - a really strong following of supporters in New Haven, some of whom were abolitionists, but some of whom were not. I mean, I saw letters of contribution to the Amistad committee, and people will say things like, “I am no crazy abolitionist, but I do support the right of these people to be free.” There was a kind of social movement aspect of this, they had really, you know, most of the most white people in Connecticut, in this period, didn't know any people from Africa. So what happened was, I think they became real, they became human beings, just like you.

Devin: So this was a, as we noted, a very complex court case, it took over two years for it to finally there to be a verdict started out in the courts of Connecticut, the courts there decided that this was a federal problem. And so they kicked it upstairs to the Supreme Court. And as we noted, the abolitionists had hired a team of attorneys to really work this case at the local level, and they were successful in petitioning it to make it to the Supreme Court, but they needed a kind of star to really bring this case forward. They chose a former president, by the name of John Quincy Adams, who at the time, was actually serving in the House of Representatives, but he was also - he was elderly at the time, he was 73 years old, but he was exactly what they needed. He was a big name, a person who had impeccable legal credentials. And what he does is study the case, he studies all of the legal documents, and he argues for eight and a half hours in front of the Supreme Court, and in the end, it sways the court in the favor of the enslaved Africans. 

Lauren: Although the two year long court saga takes place in Connecticut, we need to remember that the story actually begins in New York. So we spoke with Dr. Georgette Grier-Key to learn more about the impact that the Amistad story continues to have on New York state history.

Dr. Georgette Grier-Key: Hello, everyone, my name is Georgette Grier-Key, and I'm the executive director at Eastville Community Historical Society, which is my home base, among other positions that I hold throughout the state. Eastville is situated in Sag Harbor, and we're sandwiched in two townships, the town of East Hampton and the town of Southampton. And so what we have been doing since 1981, we were incorporated by the Board of Regents to tell the history of Sag harbor in the East End. And our tagline is “Linking Three Cultures”, because we have a population of indigenous that settled from Montauk, when they were pushed out. We also have African Americans that were both free and enslaved, then we have the immigrant population of European descent that settled there. So as you can imagine, our history is very vast, from colonial times to the present. And we're making sure that we continue to tell that history through preservation, through the arts, and looking at humanities and how they matter for our life today. 

This is a global story, the Amistad - and even a national story, because this case, it went all the way to the Supreme Court. And you have John Quincy Adams defending 35 enslaved Africans. So yes, it is a story about enslavement. But it's a story also about resilience. It's also a story about their culture, I think about how they were trying to navigate back to freedom by using the stars, you know, that's another extraordinary story. So even this is the precursor to the Underground Railroad. And you start to think about Harriet Tubman, how she used the stars. But I think it's more important because when we talk about slavery, the North has gotten a pass because it has been written out of history. And so this is a nod to Northern slavery that we often don't talk about, but it's happened right here in Montauk, they came aground here, they were looking for provision here. And for my organization, along with the Montauk Historical Society, and other local groups, we have sought to preserve and reclaim this history in its specific place where it happens, this new marker from the Pomeroy foundation, it's actually closer to the spot where it happened on the beach, which is really not accessible for a lot of people. You know, it's back and off the beaten path. And so that was a day to remember. And so we can talk about that day, too.

We wanted to commemorate it at the right time, if you look at Amistad, we did it on the actual day, which is August 28. So we said this has got to be a big deal, we need to make a big deal out of this. So we went to planning. And when we went to planning, we came up with a program, I gotta tell you, most people who attended that day thought it was very, very spiritual. Because we had various things like we had Dr. Maria DeLongoria, do a libation celebration to pour out and to pay homage to the ancestors, right. So that was very powerful. Then we had a young group called the Venettes, two young men come and do a dance at the site on the beach. And then we had something that's historically called a ring shout, it's not really a dance, it's more of a cultural, spiritual type of thing, so we had that. we had African drumming, we also had an African instrument called the kora. So it was a very powerful day where there was celebration, but also remembrance, and a means to move forward with telling this truth and this history and what it means for our region. 

And then at the end, we go back up to the spot, because we were down on the beach, I gotta tell you this, walking from the actual spot down to the beach, you could swear that you were like, in the jungles of Africa, like taking that same journey walking through the woods, to go to this water, this beach. Because if you understand where the topography of this area and the terrain, it's really very difficult to navigate. And we had everything set up there. But walking through those woods, you couldn't see anything. But you could hear the African drumming. And we did that intentionally because we wanted people to understand that there's a change happening right now. And so that's why I say it started off very powerful in the beginning. So how do you top that? I gotta tell you, if you see the video, you'll say, "Oh, my goodness!"

And so this year, we're like, we got to do something, again, because we've been trying to make this an annual thing. And so we call it Amistad Weekend. This year, we will be having Discovery Amistad back. And we're looking at dates of August 22 to August 29. And so we will have tours, we will be on the beach where they actually ran aground. So we're planning a whole weekend, again, to really talk about this history.

Lauren: I think it's really cool the way that the community has used African culture to celebrate the unveiling of the marker but then to talk about the cultural influence both in 1839, and today. When the Africans who were on the ship were held captive, they were using their experience as African warriors, first of all, to be able to revolt successfully. And then they continue to use their skills and their culture, while they are trying to earn money to get themselves back to Africa. And to be able to push that forward into today, in the way that the community was using African drumming, and, and dance and commemoration. It's really inspiring to have this type of marker unveiling as the result of, you know, getting a grant from the Pomeroy Foundation to be able to reclaim this history, bring it back to New York, right near the area where it happened. And to evoke feelings about the influence of that culture on this story.

Devin: You’re right, and it does tie directly to the work of Marcus Rediker who, in his book, The Amistad Rebellion: An Atlantic Odyssey of Slavery and Rebellion really tries to answer the question of, you know, why was this revolt successful? So it's really an amazing story. And it's a story about the human desire for freedom, I think, but it's also a story that is uniquely an African story. And that's why, as you said, the bringing together today, at the unveiling of the marker in 2023, African culture and music and all of that to the forefront really positions this as an African story by way of New York.

Dr. Marcus Rediker: One of the things that has always struck me about the Amistad rebellion is that: these 53 people stage an uprising on a small schooner on the north coast of Cuba, seize their freedom, guide the ship to Northern Long Island, and inside of two years, the most powerful people in the world are debating what they've done. Presidents, monarchs, the British Parliament, abolitionist groups all around the Atlantic, Supreme Court justices, these are the most powerful people in the world talking about this event. And to me, this is one of the really great things about history from below, you never know, when something might arise, that will create a kind of an extraordinary set of consequences. And I do think the Amistad rebellion is important because it was a victory. And even though they were not enslaved in the United States - that's one of the reasons the Supreme Court was able to rule the way it did; it ruled on the very narrow grounds of the violation of a treaty between Britain and Spain, so as not to set any precedent for anybody who's, you know, gaining freedom in the United States. But you couldn't separate out the fact that you had these self-emancipated people who had taken on, you know, not just one but two of the main, you know, governments in the world, Spain in the United States and had won their freedom through this long struggle. It's just an extraordinary story. And I can tell you, the abolitionists were shocked. They did not expect to win. When the Supreme Court ruled in their favor. They were bowled over but such as the nature of the campaign that they and these African rebels waged, it was a winning campaign.

Marker of Focus: Escape Prevented, Niagara County

Guests: Anton Schwarzmueller (Project Coordinator) and Jim Ball (Board President) of the Niagara Frontier Chapter-National Railway Historical Society, Lindsey Lauren Visser, Buffalo City Historian

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Featured Image: John Y. Beall, credit: Library of Congress

Further Reading:

Transcript of the Trial of John Y. Beall, Library of Congress

An Irrepressible Conflict: The Empire State in the Civil War by Aaron Noble, Jennifer Lemak, and Robert Weible.

Teaching Resources:

Consider the Source New York Civil War Resources—New York State Archives Partnership Trust

An Irrepressible Conflict Online Exhibit—New York State Museum

New York State Military Museum Civil War Resources

New York State Archives Military Records

Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE) Credit: The New York State Museum is an approved provider of Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE). Educators can earn CTLE credit (.5 hours) by listening to this episode and completing this survey Please allow up to two weeks to receive confirmation of completion.

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On this episode, we're taking you to a marker located at the Amtrak train station at 825 Depot Ave West in the city of Niagara Falls, out in Niagara County. The title of the marker is “Escape Prevented” and the text reads: On December 16 1864, local police officer D.H. Thomas arrested two Confederate spies nearby after their attempt to derail a passenger train south of here. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2022. 

So we've got Confederate spies attempting to derail a passenger train south of Niagara Falls, it sounds like a pretty interesting story, and one that I had never heard of in context of the Civil War. So let's start by refreshing our memories about what was going on in the country in the 1860s. 

The Civil War begins in 1861, when Confederate forces fire on Fort Sumter and we are launched into a long war - North versus South. The North certainly has the upper hand with personnel and money and infrastructure. And it becomes obvious that by 1863, the vast majority of fighting is in the south. And it begins to take a toll; they're running out of people, they're running out of money, they're really getting desperate. And so that's where we're at here in late 1864 when our story begins, way up north on the New York Canadian border up in the Buffalo area. So what would the city of Buffalo have been like at this time during the Civil War?

Devin: Did you get all the snow?

Lindsey Lauren Visser: I did, yes! It's… what a time to be in Buffalo. Let me tell you, you caught me right in between blizzards, it's great.

Devin: We spoke with Buffalo city Historian Lindsey Lauren Visser to get a sense of what Buffalo was like in 1864.

Lindsey: So my name is Lindsay Lauren Visser, and I am the City of Buffalo Historian and very, very new to the position. And so at the moment just trying to raise general awareness of the depth of history for our city because it has so much to be excited about. 

I think the thing that I always try to remind people is: when we think of cities within New York State, we think they're very old, and Buffalo relative to the rest of downstate is quite young. And especially when we talk about during the Civil War period, Buffalo had only really been open to European settlement from just after the turn of the 19th century. It's then promptly burned to the ground by the British during the War of 1812. So we're off to a great start! So 1813, 1814, the city is rebuilding, and it's shortly thereafter that the Erie Canal is announced and Buffalo is identified as the terminus. The Erie Canal opened in 1825 [and] completely changed the landscape for Western New York. You now have Buffalo serving as a shipment center for all of the Great Lakes, all of the Midwest, and now connecting them to the northeast. It really puts Buffalo on the map, and it puts it very quickly. But we see the railroads coming as early as 1837. So it's literally just that tiny little nudge that Buffalo needed to really secure itself as that center. And that continues throughout the development of the rest of the 19th century, because the railroads now have to connect to Buffalo because it's so important because the Erie Canal made it important. 

Buffalo really starts to turn the corner from just an industrial powerhouse; we start to get some amenities. This is the time period in the 1860s, where the Historical Society is formed, the Fine Arts Society is formed. So you're starting to kind of elevate the city. And even during the Civil War, we have a number of people who are fairly instrumental in the government at that point in time, which again, I think, adds to the gravitas and the prominence of the city in general.

Devin: You don't necessarily think of Buffalo and Niagara Falls as a battleground in the Civil War, right? We know that the vast majority of the action took place in the South, there was some in the West, there was a battle of Gettysburg, which was the one attempt that the South made to attack the North on their soil. But New York as a destination for these types of activities does make some kind of sense, right? New York was the industrial heartland of the North and the effort of the Northern cause. I mean, we know today that New York State supplied more men, more material and more money for the northern cause than any other state. So if the South was thinking about bringing the war home, and bringing it to a civilian population, that New York State could have been focused. Now, why it wasn't New York City and why we're talking about Buffalo is because of how close it was to the Canadian border. So in 1864, it was still part of the British Commonwealth - it was called British Canada - it was a neutral country, and therefore Southern soldiers, and people could travel there could live there, they weren't in any way stopped at the border or anything. So they could launch clandestine activities against Buffalo and Niagara Falls from Canada.

Lauren: So it's interesting that you say that British Canada was neutral, because this is where some of the guerrilla operatives are planning their attacks on American soil. Although they maintain neutrality, this does lead to an opportunity for Confederate spies to have some gray area where they can plot.

Lindsey: This was definitely something that the Confederacy was plotting and planning and really supporting. And so what we see is that in 1864, there's an actual effort, if you will, to make a Clandestine Service, located out of Canada, because there was the effort to strike fear into the heart of the Union, start to disrupt things, start to really target the strategic locations. And so there's actually a former congressman Jacob Thompson, who ends up being the head of this program, if you will, in setting up a base in Canada. And they gave him a lot of money to do this. I think it's a draft note of a million dollars. And it's coming at a time period in which the Confederacy does not necessarily have a ton of resources to be throwing around, so the fact that this was given that much support really does show that this was something that I think the Confederate government really was backing. 

So there's a few plots that they ended up trying to orchestrate. It's kind of logical, but the only way I can describe it is the people who they got to do this were a bit bumbling and couldn't really get the job done, which I suppose is good in the annals of history, if you will, that they weren't quite as successful in what they wanted, but at the time it made for some interesting situations. I think you kind of mentioned that the attack on the USS Michigan, this was a very concerted effort to strategically do something. This one had two kind of folds to it, if you will. The first was that they were going to try to take over the Michigan because it was a prisoner transport. So you've got 2700 Confederate soldiers who are prisoners of war, who you'd be liberating. On top of it, the USS Michigan is a gunboat. So now you have a gunboat and an army and the Great Lakes so they can effectively sail up and down the Great Lakes and hit targets like Cleveland, Detroit, and Buffalo. So now you've got some real means to do some damage. And this particular plan comes down to their inside guy, the embedded one who was supposed to serve the crew the spiked champagne, got caught literally like the day and they were supposed to do all of this. And so unfortunately for - or fortunately, but our Confederate soldiers who were trying to execute this plot - they anticipated the Michigan being effectively incapacitated, it was not, and they had to call off the attack. So our mayor at the time, William Fargo, of Wells Fargo fame, he actually sets up his own intelligence network to try to preempt anything and at least have some early warning.

Devin: So as we noted, in 1864, the Confederacy didn't have the infrastructure, the industry that the North had to be able to resupply in the same way. It was looking for ways to influence Great Britain to come in on its side. 

Lauren: One of the other things that they tried and succeeded at was striking fear in the hearts of people in and around Buffalo. I mean, if you're a citizen, and they're targeting ships, trains, they're robbing people, you know, this is going to make an impact on your everyday life. And it will get the attention of local officials to be on high alert when these things happen, in the same way that terrorists do today to make citizens afraid in their everyday lives.

Devin: Right, you would never know where they could strike next. 

Devin: Do we know if the Canadian government were reprimanded by the US or in any way questioned about, you know, hey, you're letting these guys operate out of your country?

Lindsey: I'm so happy you asked this question, because it actually does relate back to another one of my favorite stories from the Great Lakes, that Buffalo’s involved: I don't know how familiar you are with the the (almost) War of 1837 and the burning of the Caroline. 

It basically… This event that happens is as close as you can come to violating neutrality. In fact, they do violate neutrality, and having phenomenal consequences for it.  Long and the short of it is: Canadian rebels sneak out of Canada, they go to Buffalo, they get an enormous amount of support from Buffalo, and they occupy Navy Island which is Canadian soil. The Canadian military comes in, and they decide to take an American ship because the Canadians are using it in their rebellion. So they take out an American ship, kill an American civilian in American waters. And it leads to a huge five year long debate over what constitutes pre-emptive self defense and the enforcement of neutrality. And so Canada and the United States had literally just been doing this from 1837, to about 1842. So when I tell you Canada was like, “We need to get this right, because this was something that we had just been dealing with.” So that whole issue of Canadian American neutrality and the enforcement of neutrality, especially along the frontier, was something that was very present, I think, in everybody's minds. 

So the Canadian government is in a bit of a tough position on this, obviously, they're aware that the Confederates are using Canada to do this, the Confederates are trying to suggest that they're just residing there, and that all of their illicit activity is being conducted on the American side, they're just residing in Canada, and the Canadians are kind of like, “Okay, this is gonna get really dicey. We've been down this road before, we don't really want to do it again.” So there's moments in which they threaten to extradite some of the Confederates, take them out of the country. But by and large, the timeframe that we're talking about of these kinds of Confederate activities, is really only a period of about a year or a little bit more, which I know sounds like a long time. But when we talk about things at the federal level that, oh, that's really not a long time, I think had this been something that was going from the earliest phases of the work, the Canadian reaction and response would have had to be a little bit more pronounced, but because these were kind of these isolated attacks that are happening on American soil, they're starting to get more aware of it at around the same time that it's winding down anyway. 

So I do wonder to what extent there was a little bit of mindfulness of the fact that if these Confederates are looking a little bit suspicious, they may be part of something that's a little bit bigger. I do think there was some awareness of that as well. Because again, they're really starting to see this as a legitimate threat that they're starting to combat. So interestingly, Beall - who is the Confederate soldier, who I guess is kind of, in some respects, the star of our show today - He's involved in that attack on the Michigan and he's actually in command of that particular project. He escapes after the unsuccessful capture and lives to fight another day, which just happens to be the Dunkirk to Buffalo railroad.

Devin: These weren't exactly great criminals. Let's talk a little bit about some of the follies of Beall and his men.

Lauren: You're right. They weren't very good at what they were doing. And we know this because John Beall had already been captured and imprisoned once for his actions down in the Chesapeake where he was acting as a privateer. He was caught, imprisoned, and then after he's released, that's when he makes his way up to Canada and starts different tactics preying on the people of New York State. But they tried several times, and were not successful at any of them. They were late, they couldn't even get there on time, they missed the train. They put an obstacle in front/across the tracks, but the train could see it far enough in advance to be able to slow down and stop the train without any harm to the passengers or derailing the trains. So on their latest attempt, they decided, you know, this isn't working, we're gonna go back to Canada so they take their sleigh back to the City of Niagara Falls, and they're waiting in the train station, when Officer David H. Thomas of Niagara, sees them sitting in the train station and thinks they look a little suspicious.

Devin: To learn more about the story, we spoke to Anton Schwarzmueller and Jim Ball from the National Railway Historical Society Niagara Frontier chapter. This was the organization that successfully applied for the Pomeroy marker.

Jim Ball: My name is Jim Ball. I'm the president of the Niagara Frontier chapter of the National Railway Historical Society. And the organization owns and operates the Railroad Museum of the Niagara Frontier.

Anton Schwarzmueller: My name is Anton Schwarzmueller, I am also a member of the Niagara Frontier chapter. I was always kind of looking out for interesting opportunities that would have some connection to railroad history, in particular local railroad history. I just happened to be reading a book by Dr. Amanda Orman called A World on Fire. And I suddenly came upon a brief note about this incident. And since the incident did happen here locally, I decided that this should be something that we need to procure a historical marker for, so that the public passing by might be informed and become interested in this. And we just went forward from there. 

You know, these coaches were all made of wood, they were, you know, brittle by today's standards, it was December, so you would have had stoves in these coaches. And if you had, indeed this did happen when you would have a coach to rail and if there was a stove in that coach, well, you know, embers go everywhere, and everything is wood and cloth. And if you're trapped in that coach, you're just gonna get cooked. Other things that would happen is you could have an incident where they called up telescoping, because the ends of these coaches weren't reinforced really in any way. And if you had the coach in front suddenly stop, and you had coaches behind, you know, the weight behind the inertia going forward, you would actually have a situation where, you know, the following coach would break through, you know, the end of one coach and actually insert itself into the coach in front of it. And that was called telescoping and you probably weren't going to survive that. 

At the time, public and law enforcement and the military were aware that there were Confederate operates in Canada. And indeed, just back in October of 1864, we're probably more aware of the St Albans Raid in St. Albans, Vermont, where a group of perhaps 22 Confederate partisans practically invaded and made their way to St. Albans, Vermont, which is not far from the Canadian border - that's where they invaded from - and robbed several banks, and I believe one civilian was shot and killed. So certainly, local authorities were aware of the danger posed by partisans crossing the border and causing trouble. Officer Thomas would be on the lookout for confederates. But it's sort of interesting in that when Officer Thomas entered the New York Central Depot, he assumed that Beall was an escaped prisoner, which sort of makes sense because the fellows - there were two of them, they were waiting for the 11 o'clock train to Canada. So then Beall claimed right away that yes, he was indeed an escaped prisoner from the prisoner camp in Point Lookout, Maryland, which was not the case. Officer Thomas took that to be true at the time, which is, I think, what nowadays we would call confirmation bias. And another interesting element of what Beall said was when Officer Thomas first approached him and asked him to identify himself. He gave his name as Beall. And he asked him again, some point later and Beall said, “No, no, my name is W.W. Baker.” And Officer Thomans said “No, you just told me that your name was Beall.” “No, I did not!” he replied. So even then, even with that element, he was, you know, again, misrepresented himself as an escaped prisoner. 

And this is important, because he did have an Acting Master certificate from the Confederacy, which can also be a source of protection for someone who is actually taken prisoner, because then the capturing military would have to treat them as a prisoner of war. Whereas if you have a spy, which is what he was - a spy, saboteur, guerrilla - and traveling in civilian clothes; well, spies do not have the protection of say soldiers captured, like in a battlefield or, or escaped prisoners. They don't have that protection, you might say. So that would explain why Beall stated that “yes, I am an escaped prisoner,” he probably had some idea of what happens to spies that are caught.

Devin: So when Officer Thomas arrested Beall, he was with one of his associates, a gentleman named George L. Anderson, who was a young man younger than Bealle. And when he realized that the seriousness of the charges that were going to be brought against them, which was essentially spying, and that would mean a military tribunal, and a result of which could very easily be the death penalty.

Lindsey: Anderson, being young and realizing this is really bad, breaks. He is your typical informant in the sense that he's like, “I will take whatever plea deal I can get, this is bad, what do you need me to say?” And he completely turns on Beall. So Beall goes to trial in a military tribunal. Now we have a whole slew of new issues. He's charged with espionage, which might not necessarily be the best indictment, because his activities aren’t really typical espionage; as such, there isn't an intelligent side to it. But at the same time, it's 1864. They don't really have a concept of terrorism the way that we would, and don't use that language. So they refer to it as guerrilla attacks. But it's a case that his lawyer actually in that trial transcript makes in saying, “This isn’t espionage - first - which is super important, because you can't turn it into something you didn't do.” But second, and this is what I find so fascinating: He's acting on orders from the Confederate government. So the fact that he's acting on orders, the Confederate government makes it really complicated because the United States doesn't recognize the Confederacy as a foreign government to be authorizing the orders. So he's in a bit of a gray area, because if they say, “Okay, well the Confederate government avowed this attack,” that it's recognizing their national authority to do so. And so he's stuck, if you will, and ends up being found guilty and ultimately executed about two months before the war ends.

Devin: We have linked to a digital scan of the original transcript of the court case on the podcast website, which you can check out. And it's pretty interesting because you see that Anderson not only testified against Beall, but testified against several other people who are involved who’d made it to Canada, including a person named Colonel Martin, who was kind of the brains behind the operation if there were any, but he had already fled so Beall and Anderson were the two that they captured. And Beall was the one that ended up being tried and convicted and hung.

Lauren: And the transcript makes it clear about why there was some controversy over whether Bealle deserved to die for his actions. I mean, it's clear that he had already been convicted of this. He was not a first time offender, but he didn't actually hurt anyone because this was unsuccessful, and he possibly, probably wasn't the mastermind behind it. Once

Anton: Once the trial was finished, then the union government made this public knowledge so the media didn't know that this trial was going on until they had finished and then there was some attempts in part of congressmen and some senators to ask President Lincoln to, you know, change his sentence. These attempts, these requests, these pleadings, they went unanswered.

Devin: So why are we talking about a marker to commemorate - in a way - an event that didn't happen? They were not successful in derailing this train.

Lauren: I would argue that if it weren't for this marker, this would be a story that was lost to history. And although they were unsuccessful in their several attempts, if they hadn't been so inept, they could have inflicted real harm. And so having this marker, which, by the way, is at a modern day train station, so that we remember the importance of rail, is a way to remember that history did happen here, they were caught here, Beall was executed for his plot. And this is a way that we have a physical presence to remember that this is a different type of warfare that was going on.

Devin: Right, I agree, I think the popular image, at least that I have, when thinking about the Civil War is two big armies lining up across a field from each other and sending volleys of musket fire into each other's ranks, and then maybe one side charges the other and, and that was the reality of a vast portion of the American Civil War. But the other part is this clandestine effort on behalf of the Confederacy to bring the war home, but to also influence Great Britain and other European nations to maybe come in on their side to help them continue the war and, you know, become victorious, which was their end goal, obviously. So, you know, these are parts of the history that we don't always remember. And we don't always think about when we, when we think about great events, such as The Civil War.

Jim: We are a 501 C3 nonprofit. And our mission statement is boiled down from a paragraph into three words, and that's Preservation, Restoration and Interpretation. And the historic markers are one of the finest examples of interpretation other than our own museum that we can provide. Once they're in place, they inform the casual visitor and the serious scholar alike and they're permanent, they're there for generations to come.

Lindsey: I think what I really enjoy is that they help make very clear how interwoven the past is to the fabric of our present. And when we are going through our daily lives and you encounter a marker, it gives you an opportunity to put an event in context in a place. And I think that's so important. Because you're absolutely right, there are all of these events that kind of exist in the ether and these markers really tie them to something physical and creates an access point for people to learn more. I think the marker for this one is just this tantalizing little tidbit that as soon as you start pulling at the threads, you realize this is a really amazing story. And it gives an opportunity for people to interact with history in that way.

Devin: Thanks for listening to A New York minute in History. This podcast is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G Pomeroy foundation. Our producer is Elizabeth Urbanczyk.

Lauren: A big thanks to Lindsay Lauren Visser, Anton Schwarzmueller, and Jim Ball for taking part. If you enjoyed this month's episode, make sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and share on social media.

Devin: To learn more about our guests and the show, check us out at wamcpodcasts.org. We're also on X and Instagram @NYHistoryMinute. I'm Devin Lander,

Lauren: …and I'm Lauren Roberts.

Devin: Until next time, 

Both: Excelsior!

Devin: WIDE RIGHT!

Marker of Focus: Plymouth Freeman, Madison County

Guests: Donna Wassall and Karen Christensen of the Fayetteville-Owahgena Chapter DAR, Paul and Mary Liz Stewart from the Underground Railroad Education Center, New York State Museum’s Chief Curator Dr. Jennifer Lemak and Senior Historian Ashley Hopkins-Benton.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Featured Image: Soldiers at the Siege of Yorktown (1781), by Jean-Baptiste-Antoine DeVerger

Further reading:

The New York State 250th Commemorative Field Guide—Office of State History and the Association of Public Historians of NYS.

Liberty Is Sweet: The Hidden History of the American Revolution by Woody Holton.

Slavery in New York edited by Ira Berlin and Leslie M. Harris.

Gateway to Freedom: The Hidden History of the Underground Railroad by Eric Foner.

My Bondage and My Freedom by Frederick Douglass.

Women Will Vote: Winning Suffrage in New York State by Susan Goodier and Karen Pastorello.

Votes for Women: Celebrating New York's Suffrage Centennial Jennifer Lemak and Ashley Hopkins-Benton.

Gay Metropolis: The Landmark History of Gay Life in America by Charles Kaiser.

Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940 by George Chauncey.

A Queer History of the United States by Michael Bronski.

Teaching Resources:

Consider the Source New York—New York State Archives Partnership Trust

The Underground Railroad Education Center

Votes for Women Online Exhibit—New York State Museum

Slavery in New York Educational Resources—New-York Historical Society

LGTBQ Teaching Resources—United Federation of Teachers

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian. 

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On this episode, we're focusing on a historic marker located on Putnam road in the town of Nelson, which is part of Madison County. The title of the marker is "Plymouth Freeman" and the text reads: Plymouth Freeman, black patriot awarded Badge of Merit for six years service with third Connecticut regiment in Revolutionary War. Lived near here circa 1800 to 1829. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2021. 

So we're going to be talking about the story of Plymouth Freeman. Plymouth Freeman was a black man from Connecticut, who, as the sign says, served for six years in the American Revolution. He enlisted in Windsor, Connecticut in 1777, and served until he was discharged at the end of the war in 1783, at West Point. Although we don't have a record that points to this, it appears as though he may have been an enslaved man, and that he may have been serving as a substitute for either the person who enslaved him or someone else. It's not clear yet what the records are.

Devin: We spoke with Donna Wassall and Karen Christensen from the Fayetteville Owahgena Daughters of the American Revolution chapter to learn more about the research that they've done on Plymouth Freeman.

Donna Wassell: My name is Donna Wassell, and currently I'm the regent of the Fayetteville Owahgena chapter D.A.R. New York State Society. And I became interested in the organization after finding out that my great grandmother had been a member of the D.A.R. in Hartford, Connecticut, I myself have only been a member for six years.

Karen Christensen: My name is Karen Christiensen, and I've been for 31 years a member of the Fayetteville D.A.R. chapter. I became interested when my mother and I went to her cousin in Virginia, and found our nine times great grandfather's headstone. And it says “sergeant in the Revolutionary War” on it. I was researching the history of the house Cazenovia for a friend - and saying, you know, who owned what, when, where and all that - as a housewarming gift. And I came across this article about Plymouth Freeman. And from there, it just kind of escalated. I thought it was very cool that there was a Cazenovia patriot of color, a free man of color, back way back during the Revolutionary War. So that's what got me interested in it. I called Donna and of course, she's the most curious person on earth. And, and, and we started to research it together.

Donna: Actually I have a very vivid recollection of this whole conversation. It was following one of our chapter meetings and she approached me and she said, “I read this article, and it's about a freed slave who fought in the Revolution, and they settled in Cazenovia. And I think we should do the research to get a Pomeroy Marker for him,” is exactly how that went. So reading the article just opened up a whole world of unanswered questions, and that's when we really started to dig in. Some of his history that was in the article was vague, and some of it was - sounded like it could have been lore or legend, and we weren't quite sure. So I made a list of questions, and then we started from there. 

The first place I went was Ancestry. We had seen copies of Plymouth’s discharge papers from the military. And I started searching “Plymouth Freeman” on Ancestry and all I could come up with were his discharge papers. I couldn't find any information about him prior to 1782. I said, “Well, we know he served, he's got to have muster records, they have to be out there somewhere.” I started searching “Plymouth” with no last name, “Plymouth, African American.” And finally I searched “Plymouth Negro,” and all kinds of wonderful records appeared. So he had enlisted under the name Plymouth Negro. And up until 1782, all of his military records were under the name of Plymouth negro. So that was, it was like hitting the motherload, I thought, when I started seeing all that information, Karen and I, Karen looked and we could never - she looked hard - and could not find manumission records for Plymouth. That's one of the reasons on the Pomeroy marker, we could not put “former slave,” even though we believe he was, but we couldn't put that because we didn't have the documentation to prove that he had been manumitted. 

It's probably most of the common knowledge now that oftentimes enslaved persons would be substituted for their owners, sometimes with the promise of “you serve in my place, and you will, you'll get your freedom.” And I knew that Plymouth enlistment date on his master records was dated May 26 1777. And I went through these books and found an enlistment record from May 26 1777. But it wasn't Plymouth's name. It was another local citizen's name. And then, a few entries down in the same book was another entry that said that this man who had enlisted had paid £30 to substitute black man in his place. One of the questions that still needs to be answered is: Was this the guy that - did he, in fact, substitute Plymouth for himself? Or is there some other way this whole thing went about? But it's interesting that the dates line up, and that they refer to an unnamed negro man who took his place. The legend or the lore that was going around and being published about Plymouth said that, you know, he was a former slave son of a king in Guinea, Africa, and that he had served in the Revolution as a cook to General Washington. And that intrigued me, and when I started finding his muster records dating back to 1777, when he enlisted, he was a servant to a general, but it wasn't General Washington. He served almost the entire duration of his enlistment as a waiter to general Jedediah Huntington out of Norwich, Connecticut. That might seem like it's a letdown because it's not General Washington but once I started researching General Huntington, and his contributions and participation in the conflict, Plymouth’s life just it must have been fascinating and the things he would have seen and been exposed to as a waiter to General Huntington kind of still blows my mind when I think about it.

Lauren: Throughout those six years of service, he saw some pretty incredible historic moments, starting with Valley Forge, going through Monmouth, the mention of some really important trials, including Charles Lee and Major Andre. These are things that we learn about in basic American history. So to know that Plymouth freemen was part of all of these events, or was at least present at all of these events is really a remarkable past to have. And we know about these things through the research of pension papers, through muster rolls, were able to kind of follow Plymouth Freeman’s service through these major events. 

Donna: These muster records are pretty thorough. I was able to get most all of them for the whole six years, and it's pretty detailed about where they went. It would say, you know, “Plymouth Negro on command with general Huntington, Fairfield, Connecticut” or “at West Point,” you know, it would say exactly where they were. So some of the assignments that he was on with General Huntington was the Valley Forge encampment. In the spring of 1778, the both of them left for commission on the losses of Fort Montgomery and Clinton. In June 1778, they were at Monmouth during General Lee's retreat. Also in the summer, General Huntington was assigned to the court martial of General Charles Lee. In the fall of 1780, General Huntington was assigned to be at the trial and hanging of Major John Andre, the accomplice to Benedict Arnold. 

So I looked up also, besides finding out that according to the general's orders, all men including the servants in the waiters be trained in military drill and able to bear arms. The other thing says is essentially they were like, I hate to use the words “man in waiting,” but they were like a personal valet, servant - they were at their beck and call, and everywhere that officer went, their man went with them. I think with that it's safe to assume that Plymouth was with the general on all of those assignments that Huntington was on. And that said - going back to the legend about Plymouth being a cook to General Washington - General Huntington was a close confidant and comrade of General George Washington, they were friends before the war. So it is absolutely very possible that at some point Plymouth Freeman did either cook for or wait on General George Washington.

Lauren: You may be wondering if black men were integrated in the Continental Army during the American Revolution, and in fact they were, and that's something that wouldn't happen again in the American army until the Korean War.

Devin: Yeah. And that's an interesting point. And it brings up some interesting questions about someone like Plymouth Freeman, or any African American who served in the Revolutionary War. They were essentially serving on behalf of a country - that would become a country - that was a slave country. Now, some of these people were free blacks, they were already freed, and some, as we noted, with the possibility with Plymouth Freeman, that they would have been enslaved when they enlisted, and could have been a substitute for someone else. So it brings up some interesting questions about the ideals of the American Revolution and the language that was used by the people like Thomas Jefferson and the “founding fathers” of the nation, with regards to liberty, with regards to freedom. And it also raises some interesting questions about why someone would choose to serve the American side as opposed to the British side who were offering enslaved African Americans freedom if they came and served for them.

Lauren: Karen and Donna planned the dedication of the marker so that it was exactly 239 years to the day that Plymouth Freeman was discharged from service. And they were able to get a pretty great turnout for one of these events.

Donna: There was a book written in the 1800s by a reverend, W.W. Crane. [He] grew up in the town of Nelson, and he wrote a book about his childhood and he makes reference in his book to being friends with this boy, nicknamed Black Jerry, and Black Jerry was Jeremiah Freeman, who was Plymouth's son. And in his book, he makes reference to [how] Black Jerry would always tell him how his dad, you know, had been a slave and served in the Revolution and waited on George Washington, and all these things. So between where I know that the Reverend Crane lived as a child, and what the Town of Nelson historian was able to put together, we were able to pinpoint within a short distance where Plymouth would have lived. So he was right in the Cazenovia/Nelson area until probably, you know, not long before his death. We do not know where he's buried. That's Karen's burning desire, but trying to figure out where his remains lie. I don't know. Other people have looked; they've been looking for 200 years to find where he is.  

The day of the marker dedication: It’s on a little secondary side road right off Route 20 in the town of Nelson, on some guy's front lawn, because he was gracious enough to let us put it there. We put a lot of press out before the marker dedication, and I would say we had probably 70 people at this thing. We had history teachers from the local school, we had some local dignitaries, the President General of the Daughters of the American Revolution showed up. It was amazing. And there were some people that had heard the story, and there were others who had never heard of it. And then there were others that were so grateful that a person of color was honored in this way for fighting in the Revolution. And we had a follow up article that went out after in the woman for the local news who did the article, I think it was a two-page spread. It wasn't just like, “Daughters of the American Revolution host a marker [dedication],” it was his entire history. Right off the biography that we had read at the ceremony. 

I think, yes, of course, Karen, I'm sure, and I - I know every chance I get to talk about it, I talk about it. Because it's a fascinating story. It really is. And I mean, Plymouth’s this one guy, one former slave, African American man who went and fought for freedoms that potentially wasn't gonna have, and did it honorably and was recognized for that.

Lauren: I think it's interesting that they just happened to come across this article in 2019, that mentions him, and, and then you fall down the rabbit hole of trying to research this person. And especially, you know, when it is a minority, or a black person from the 18th century, trying to find those records is really difficult. We have to commend those women for the research they were able to do and you know, you just wait for those needle-in-a-haystack moments to try and uncover these little bits of information to piece together the story.

Devin: I think this story of Plymouth Freeman is a fascinating story as we've gone through it. It's an incomplete story because of the records. And maybe these records will be found, as Donna and Karen continue their Odyssey to discover more about Plymouth, but it really brings to light some of the dichotomies that existed in the American Revolution. We think about the American Revolution as this revolutionary event. And it really was, it was a world-changing event. But in other ways, it was very much of its time, as I said, the United States, as it became known, was a slave nation. Also, half of the population was not given the right to vote, or the right to do much of anything, including owning property, and that's women. But over time, because of the ability to change the constitution and amend it. It really led to a series of other revolutions. 

On October 22 2023, I moderated a panel of experts on the concept of the unfinished revolution in New York State. 

Devin (at presentation): My name is Devin Lander. I'm the New York State historian here at the State Museum. And I just want to welcome all of you. As we've been thinking about how to commemorate the American Revolution. It's very clear as historians that the revolution itself was incomplete. This is something that's echoed in the founding legislation that creates a state commission in the state of New York:

 “The legislature finds that New York played an immense role in the lead up and execution of the American Revolution during the period of 1774 to 1783, and was the site of several important battles, skirmishes and other events that were internationally significant during the Revolutionary era. The American Revolution itself was imperfect, and many - including women, African Americans and Native Americans - did not benefit from its ideals of liberty and freedom. However, the struggle to fully realize the ideals of the revolution has continued over the past 250 years, as is evident in New York's leading role in such revolutionary civil rights movements, as the women's rights and abolitionist movements, the Underground Railroad and the LGBTQ movement. The commemoration of the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution should also be an occasion for recognition of New York's vital role in the revolution itself as well as the ongoing struggle of marginalized peoples to achieve the ideals of the revolution.” 

So this panel has been assembled to talk about New York's role in these kinds of continuing revolutions. To my right is Paul Stewart. He is the co-founder with Mary Liz of the Underground Railroad Education Center. Next to Paul, is Mary Liz Stewart. She has an active background supporting nonprofit organizations, cultural heritage organizations, and museums. Next to Mary Liz is Ashley Hopkins Benton. She is a senior historian and curator of social history for the State Museum. Final on our panel is Dr. Jennifer Lemack, who is the chief curator of the New York State Museum. So thank you all for joining us, and we will begin our discussion. 

But let's start with, kind of the beginning with America's founding documents: How have America's founding documents been used to press for social, political and economic change beyond the founding of the United States itself?

Paul Stewart: That's a great place to jump in. Because particularly when we think about the Declaration of Independence, you know, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” that, although it was used as a theme at that moment, to the American Revolution, and I think their intent was to contrast that with the British nobility, and to sort of say that the king wasn't any better than they were. But I think implied in what they said there, was that there were rights that were inherent that were extended, and you began to see that almost right away reflected in the concern of African Americans for asserting rights within the context of the United States. It was a very strong theme within the movement that we’d come to call the Underground Railroad and the abolitionist movement, it continued to echo throughout. And of course, today, in this day and age, it is still something that we can use as a touchstone to talk about moving forward to create a more perfect society, and to bring those rights, or recognize those rights, assert those rights, in the context that we see them today that where they need to be asserted and defended.

Mary Liz Stewart: I'll take it a step further, with a reference to our black abolitionists, based in the research that Paul and I have been doing over the years. And we came to recognize that for our block abolitionists, while their primary concern - as with white abolitionists - was for the elimination or abolition of the institution of enslavement in the state, in the nation - we noticed that our lock abolitionists took some extra steps which was to engage in a variety of state-based and nationally-based activities. For instance, there was the existence of an organization called the American Council of Colored Laborers that had a home here in New York State. We have the New York State Suffrage Association. We have education also being a focus of attention for many of these black men. In fact, in particular, here in the city of Albany, the city school district of Albany was sued because it refused to let black children through its doors, and the legal case was initially resolved in 1851, which only to find out that the application of the legislation applied only to the children of Stephen and Harriet Meyers. So city residents took up the cause and continued the pursuit of equity in education here in the city of Albany. The relationship between these kinds of civil rights activities, really in relationship to those promises, laid out in the preamble become very explicitly engaged in by our black abolitionists.

Ashley Hopkins-Benton: As I look across the history - especially of the women's rights movement, and the LGBTQ+ rights movement - what I see is trying to find the ways in which those groups fit into those documents and can place themselves in the history that maybe they were omitted from in the beginning. 

So in 1848, and Seneca Falls, The Declaration of Sentiments is delivered, describing the demands of women and it starts “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men and women are created equal.” So they are co-opting that document. And then by the 1970s. The Women's Declaration of Independence is rewritten again by Serena Hanson and Sidney Pendleton. And again, taking that initial document and reworking it to talk about the ways that women are still left out of society in the 1970s. 

In the 1870s. Francis Minor declares that women aren't left out of the Constitution and voting rights and that they should go try to start voting. And so in 1872, Susan B. Anthony and fifteen women from Rochester test that out, and are arrested because some say that they are wrong in that assertion. Also, in arguments for LGBTQ+  rights, they pull little bits and pieces and ways that they see that they fit. So then in 2015 in Obergefell v. Hodges, which is the Supreme Court case that eventually allows marriage equality, Justice Kennedy in the ruling says that “the plaintiffs ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The constitution grants them that right.” And he is looking back to the 14th Amendment finding these bits that aren't explicitly about the LGBTQ community, but can provide them protections.

Dr Jennifer Lemack: One of my favorite examples of, kind of harkening back to our founding documents and principles, is the New York State Suffrage campaign of 1894. They calculated how much women pay in property taxes. And what comes next is the cry that “taxation without representation is tyranny.” So harkening back to the founding fathers and our original patriots, and they mounted a huge campaign, and they sent out 5000 petitions across the state, and they were able to get over a half a million signatures, and they presented the signatures very dramatically to the New York State Legislature, and they were voted down. 

One of our prized artifacts here at the State Museum, is the Spirit of ‘76 Suffrage Wagon, which in 1913, in Long Island, Edna Kearns and Irene Davidson dressed as Minutemen, and carrying signs that said, “Taxation without representation is tyranny,” rode the wagon from Long Island to New York City for a parade in September 1913, one of their daughters was dressed as Lady Liberty. So the suffragists constantly used this revolutionary rhetoric to get their points across.

Lauren: Recently, I attended the 2023 reenactment of the Boston Tea Party. And as part of that commemoration, the reenactors made a point to include that not everyone was included in the meeting of the body of the people where it was decided that the tea would be dumped in the harbor, they actually use the narrator Phyllis Wheatley, who was a woman of color, a poet, [a] formerly enslaved person whose book of poetry was actually being delivered on the same ship as one of the ships that was holding tea. And the point is made that people like her were not invited to participate, yet they still had to suffer along with the consequences of those decisions made by those that had the right to have a say. So when we think about the commemorations of the 250th, looking at a broader context of who was and was not represented, but also the means that were used to get their point across to King George about wanting fair representation, and wanting to be able to govern themselves for some in the colony. 

Devin: It also gives us an opportunity to think about the American Revolution as an ongoing revolution, and we're still living in the ripples. And in our case in the United States and the New York. It's been a series of other struggles, and other revolutions, and we're still living that history.

Lauren: Thanks for listening to A New York Minute in History. This podcast is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy foundation. Our producer is Elizabeth Urbanczyk.

Devin: A big thanks to Donna Wassell, Karen Christensen, Paul and Mary Liz Stewart, Dr. Jennifer Lemack, and Ashley Hopkins-Benton for taking part in this month's episode.

Lauren: To learn more about our guests and the show, check us out at WAMCpodcasts.org. We're also on X and Instagram as @NYHistoryMinute.

Devin: I'm Devin Lander,

Lauren: …and I'm Lauren Roberts.

Devin: Until next time: 

Both: Excelsior!

Marker of Focus: Native Voices, Chemung County

Guests: Dr. Joe Stahlman, Tribal Preservation Officer, The Seneca Nation of Indians, Dr. Nina M. Versaggi, Public Archeology Faculty, Binghamton University, Dr. Michael Jacobson, Public Archeology Faculty, Binghamton University. This episode also features parts of a public lecture given by Dr. Scott Manning Stevens at the New York State Museum on October 29th, 2023.

A New York Minute in History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading:

Ned Blackhawk, The Rediscovery of America: Native Peoples and the Unmaking of U.S. History.

Amy Lonetree, Decolonizing Museums: Representing Native America in National and Tribal Museums.

A. Lynn Smith, Memory Wars: Settlers and Natives Remember Washington’s Sullivan Expedition of 1779.

Scott Manning Stevens et al, Why You Can't Teach United States History without American Indians.  

Teaching Resources:

Akwesasne Cultural Center

Cayuga Nation

Delaware Nation

Delaware Tribe of Indians

Ganondagan State Historic Site

Onöhsagwë:de’ Cultural Center

Onondaga Nation

Ramapough-Munsee Lenape Nation

Shako:wi Cultural Center

Shinnecock Nation

Stockbridge-Munsee Community Band of Mohican Indians

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to a new season of A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian. 

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. In honor of Native American Heritage Month, we're going to be focusing on not one, but a series of five markers that are located in Chemung County. 

Devin: And just a little bit of background on the origins of Native American Heritage Month:  interestingly enough, it can trace part of its origin to New York State, and the great Dr. Arthur C. Parker, who was a Cattaraugus Seneca. Dr. Parker was the first state archaeologist at the New York State Museum in Albany, and he went on to become the director of the Rochester Museum of Arts and Sciences. And he was also an advocate for indigenous rights. And it was through his advocacy in the early 1900s that this idea of setting aside a day to commemorate indigenous peoples really kind of began and then others kind of took it after him. And then eventually Congress passed legislation that was signed by President Obama creating Native American Heritage Day, which is the Friday after Thanksgiving.

Lauren: One of the markers in this series is entitled “Native Voices” and the text reads: The 1779 campaign drove native peoples from their villages. Seneca and Delaware fought to protect their family, homes and way of life. William G Pomeroy Foundation 2019. This marker is located adjacent to a stone marker that was erected for Newtown Battlefield and was put up in the early 1900s. The other markers are located nearby and talk about the Clinton Sullivan campaign of 1779.

The lead up to the 250th is one of the reasons that this series of five markers was erected, because it was the Delaware Nation themselves that actually reached out to the Public Archaeology Facility at [SUNY] Binghamton, which - that's the facility that was able to get the grant for these five markers.

Dr. Nina Versaggi: I'm Dr. Nina Versaggi. I was the director of the Public Archaeology Facility on the Binghamton University campus. 

Dr. Mike Jacobson: Hi, I’m Mike Jacobson, and I was the project director at the Public Archaeology Facility and I started a program focused on looking at Revolutionary War battlefields in New York State.

Dr. Nina Versaggi: I was contacted by a representative from the Delaware Nation. She asked if we would partner with the Delaware Nation, as well as other regional nations, to apply for signage as part of this program to commemorate - this as a new Pomeroy program to commemorate the 250th anniversary of the Sullivan Clinton campaign. They were a bit concerned because before the Revolutionary War, the Seneca had accepted many refugee nations to come and settle in Haudenosaunee territory.

The Delaware comprised one of those nations that came and were settled in the Chemung Valley. So the Delaware, since maybe about the early 1700s, had been residents. And these were their villages, their homeland that was in the sights of the Sullivan Clinton campaign. So they were concerned that their history here would be neglected and ignored. And so they saw this as an opportunity to have some kind of signage that recognized their presence there, and their history.

Devin: Now, just a little bit about the Clinton Sullivan campaign: what we need to remember is that at one point, all of New York State and the colony was indigenous lands. So, indigenous people who were allied with the British were conducting a series of raids along the frontier, along with their British allies. Many indigenous people, I think, were not necessarily thinking about driving people off from those people's lands, they were thinking more along the lines of driving people off from their lands, because they had been their lands traditionally, for centuries. 

So in 1778/1779, the governor of New York, George Clinton, really implored George Washington to do something about these raids. Washington gave overall command of the campaign to General John Sullivan, who was going to lead the main army up the Susquehanna River from Pennsylvania. Meanwhile, General James Clinton was moving his army westward from the Albany-Schenectady area. 

Historians have argued over the years about what the actual mission was of the Clinton Sullivan campaign, but I think it's pretty clear: The mission was to destroy the capabilities of the indigenous people, so, those allied with the British, to wage war on the frontier. To do that, the Clinton Sullivan campaign ran a rampage across indigenous lands. They were instructed to destroy villages, destroy crops, take as many prisoners as they possibly could… And there was a small battle at Chemung, but then there was a larger battle at Newtown Battlefield. And the destruction that was wrought; we're talking a loss of an entire season's worth of crops for people, creating mass refugees who ended up fleeing to Fort Niagara, where their British allies there did not have the supplies to help them through a very bitter, cold, Western New York winter. So, there were mass casualties as a result of that.

Dr. Nina Versaggi: Chemung County - and these two battlefields: Chemung and Newtown - they probably have the, you know, the highest number of memorials to the campaign than any other place in New York State. I can't remember if it was twelve, or eighteen markers that had already existed. Other groups had paid for these markers, and did the text. 

Part of our collaboration with the nations, mostly it was the Seneca and two Delaware Nations…  So at the end, we had a conference, a summit, where we brought the Native Americans who have been collaborating with us together for further discussions and a workshop. And part of those discussions involved a tour of the battlefields as we now understood them. And it was emotional. It was hard to do. I wasn't expecting it, but it was very emotional. And there were some tears shed when people read some of the markers that already exist. There was some graffiti on some of them, Mike?

Dr. Mike Jacobson:  Yeah, if you go out there and… there’s still bronze plaques. And people had etched out some of the lettering and replaced it with statements similar to - I'm just paraphrasing - that they were defending their lands; basically, tried to input indigenous perspectives onto the landmarks that were already there.

Dr. Nina Versaggi: We involved indigenous scholars, some of them military scholars, in our projects, our grants. They wrote for our reports, first-person accounts. Our aim was to give that first-person account to indigenous peoples because only one side - for the most part - of the story of the Revolutionary War and the battlefields has been told, and so that pretty much was our aim. And it wasn't an easy path to begin with. You say there was some reluctance. Some of the Native American groups didn't want to talk about it at all. They thought that the wound was still open and raw and that they did not want to talk about a blood that had soaked into the ground even generations ago.

The bottom line of that tour was that we went back to discuss how the indigenous people we work with wanted to move forward. Unanimously they said, “We would like to have new signage that gives us a voice.” 

But they were pretty adamant that they did not want the old ones removed. They wanted the new signage juxtaposed so that people could see the past, and how history was interpreted, and see the present and the Native American voices, giving their history with its battles. So I thought that was very interesting. And it actually makes a whole lot of sense.

So history is not static. And some of the history is pleasant, but it is what it is. And we learn from it. And we change things [unintelligible]. So they thought it was really great that they made the point that we absolutely do not want these removed, because we want people to see what it was like, and what the attitudes were, But now we want people to see what they were missing. And that's part of the story too.

Dr Mike Jacobson: When you have sites of conflict, you obviously have lots of people that are interested in it, they're all looking at it with their own perspective. So as we reached out and consulted with Native Americans to get their perspective, and really get their voice in this, we also reached out to the landowners, obviously, not just to get access to the land, just so we could do our research, but also just to start those discussions about possible preservation of the battlefield over the long term. And then also try to balance that perspective with other descendant communities such as the Sons of the American Revolution.

A lot of the landowners trace their history to the founders of the white settlers right after the Revolutionary War. Some of them would actually show us the land grants given to their ancestor over like, 200 years ago. So they had that pride in their family's connection with the land.

Lauren: Commemoration is a powerful thing, because the legacy of what comes out of these commemorations tends to be what sticks in people's mind. So as we're getting ready for the 250th, I think it's really important that we recognize that including source communities, the people who were part of these stories, these events, that all of their perspectives are included. We don't want just one to rise to the top, and then that's the only focus that people remember when it comes to the next commemoration fifty years from now.

Devin: Yeah, absolutely. And I think Dr. Versaggi and Dr. Jacobson really spoke to that about their partnerships, not only with the Sons of the American Revolution, and the Delaware Nations, but also the locals. And many of these people can trace their families back generations and maybe grew up with the old markers. And so it's very complex to deal with this history and to think of it in a more holistic and, frankly, authentic and accurate way. But it's something that can be done over time. And one of the ways to do that is to build relationships with all of the stakeholders. And we were able to speak with Dr. Joe Stahlman about how to build those relationships.

Dr. Joe Stahlman: My name is Dr. Joe Stahlman. I am the Tribal Historic Preservation Officer for Seneca Nation. I do a lot of consulting and writing, and a whole host of things where I talk about things that I feel like need to be addressed in certain ways to kind of re-humanize our fields of study.

The National Historic Preservation Act of 1966 set up a system where each state could have, like, State Historic Preservation offices. Within this act, you also have Tribal Historic Preservation. And so it's kind of a twofold job. So one: you focused on your nations - the ones that you represent - their home territories, but also: these communities also have Aboriginal claims to other lands beyond their current boundaries. And so whenever there's a development project or there's an initiative, a natural disaster, some kind of EPA cleanups, you know, we get calls to see if there's any cultural properties or landscapes that that tribe of interest has in those areas. And if so, we have a voice in those outcomes.

I think it works most of the time, you know, consultation can be a little rocky you know, trying to get tribal or indigenous perspectives across to federal or state agents can be a little difficult sometimes, because once again, you're bridging worldviews. Even though we're all considered Americans, we're really different. So I find my job kinda important. I'm not trying to inflate my importance, but the job in itself is important because we're helping our federal and state partners understand that there are other worldviews out there that are different from theirs. And that goes all the way from a perspective of a landscape to even a perspective in history. And so one of the things that I do in historic preservation is I try to get fair and equitable language out there. So all people kind of understand all perspectives to a story. 

But when I think about roadside markers, I don't want to go bash them down and destroy them, what I would like to do is put up an alternative marker next to it, so you have another story. And sometimes, some of the language is just abysmal, it's shallow, it's, it can be vapid, and not really provide anything. “Indians died here,” you know, sometimes it's really that basic, right? Or you even have a site where it's like: “Dug by archaeologist Steve Morris.” And there's nothing about the people that he dug up or anything. So it's really, you know, some of them maybe need to go, but I think, to be fair, and equitable, I think a lot of these signs, especially the American Revolution, or even the War of 1812, French and Indian, whatever, there should be other voices along the roadside with them. And I'm a firm believer in that. And it's not about censorship, but it's about equal voice. 

As everybody moves forward, you know, there is… I worry about word choice, though. You know, like Sullivan “Expedition” is a word that keeps popping out, the Sullivan “Expedition.” And it's actually an invasion of foreign lands. And it's never discussed that way. And I would like to see some road markers that talk about a foreign invasion, right? The United States has - this is its first act - as a government and they invaded a foreign country. It's a weird thing, like, how do you go about all of this education that you were just talking about when you have to, you know, make people who now live in Yates County, New York, understand that back in 1779, that was another country. It's hard to do in a classroom, let alone on a sign, right? 

Lauren: I think we have to remember that these markers and monuments are meant to be a gateway into learning more about a subject. The four or five lines of tax that can fit in this space, are meant to pique people's interest to let them know that something important happened on this spot. And then the hope is that it will entice them to learn more to actually go to articles, to websites, to places where there's more options for contextualization, and learn about it further. But just that initial introduction into “history happened here” is what the markers do really well. And that's why it's important that we pay attention to the wording that's on the marker, the location of the marker, and the inclusiveness of who's telling the story on the marker.

Dr Joe Stahlman: It really starts with a phone call, and starting that relationship, and you know? Start that relationship from the beginning. Don't develop your project, have your questions, have a methodology, and even have the expected outcomes in hand when you reach the community. You know, start at the very beginning, make it really inclusive, right? And so I get a lot of calls in my job from a lot of federal partners, mostly federal partners, and it's open minded, well-intentioned folks who are wanting to be inclusive, but you know what? They're calling me at a point where sometimes they have already done the analysis of the data. And they're calling me for input at that point, I just say no, because that's not a story about us. You just kind of… I'm just sprinkling on top of a story. And that's not what communities are looking for, I don't think.

You know, I think the bigger organizations who really care about history and commemorations should really reach out to as many communities as possible, it's their responsibility. Because people don't realize: small communities, rural communities, native communities, impoverished communities, you know, we're busy with living life and we don't necessarily have, you know, an army of scholars or historians out there because people are out there trying to take care of their families with, you know, something a little bit more tangible for income and, you know, being a historian is kind of a lofty, luxurious thing to have.

Devin:  So much of indigenous history, at least in museums and often historic sites, is seen as something that only happened in the past, “these people exist in the past.” And this was something that we were fortunate to hear Dr. Scott Manning Stevens talk about recently at the State Museum when he gave a public lecture.

Dr. Scott Manning Stevens: I'm delighted to be here. It's a place I have been coming - my mother reminded me - since I was four. And, I've had issues with it ever since then. So I thought, wow, I finally have the bully pulpit. I can talk…

As many of you know, Native Americans are most frequently coupled with natural history. Not history, natural history. So we're always just around the corner from a dinosaur. And when I was a kid, that always struck me: Why the dinosaur? Right? Why us and the dinosaur? I don't see anyone else with the dinosaur. Is it the presumption of things extinct? I should hope not.

Not a dinosaur here but a mastodon, same theme that you know, when I was a kid, I loved the mastodon, but I didn't necessarily want him coupled with my mother's people's history. But in the old museumology, it was all about the past. You had very little indication that there were living native people in your state. You know, I'm always amazed - I teach at Syracuse, New York, right in the center of the Confederacy. And there are many students that will be like “Are there reservations in New York?” And it just makes my head explode. You know, you drive through one to get to campus! It is, you know, about four miles away. And it says when you're on the, you know, 87 or 81, through, you know, “Onondaga Nation,” you're driving through it, but it's just... it's somehow invisible to people.

Recently, I was part of a group of people that advised the Adirondack Museum - now called the Adirondack Experience - in Blue Mountain Lake. One of the things we noticed from the old building is it had no references to indigenous people… in a place called “Adirondacks.” Gee, you wonder where they got that kooky name. And yet, we were essentially invisible somehow, the Adirondacks was Indian-free. And so one of the first things we said most glaringly, is you have to include indigenous people. This was our homeland. Again, a shared space between mostly Mohawk and Abenaki people as a hunting ground, and others lived along the rivers there. And we said it also has to emphasize our contemporary presence and communities, to get us away from a museum as things in the past, as things put on the shelf, to look at and contemplate without thinking: “Now, this is actually the representation of a long term, multi generational, multi era nation that lives within this region.”

There's a great book by the scholar Amy Lonetree - she's a Ho-Chunk scholar, teaches out in the UC system in California - called Decolonizing Museums. And she holds up the Anishinaabe cultural center called Ziibiwing in Mount Pleasant, Michigan, as a primary example of a decolonized museum. And that's always been, you know, a somewhat controversial notion because a lot of people will say, “You can't decolonize museums, they are a colonial artifact in themselves.” And that goes towards the renaming of them by pivoting the focus away from artifactual collections to living cultural events. And I've had the fortune of going to Ziibiwing, and what I loved about it was, it is a people telling their own story. Right? Not someone else, a group of experts from outside the community telling you about them and putting their lives in vitrines and their objects there for interpretation by non-Indigenous experts. But it is the community telling you, basically, how they see themselves in the world. And how they understand their history. And it is not an easy history. As it's not for most indigenous people. There's you know, disease, dispossession of land, boarding schools, dispossession of culture and language. There's substance abuse problems in endemically poor communities. The Cultural Center does not flinch from any of that. But it interprets how they understand how they got where they are. And I think every, every people represented in such institutions has the right to weigh in on how they're being curated for the public.

Devin: All of this complex history of the Clinton Sullivan campaign, and how indigenous people have been represented in museums and historical sites and historical societies, is very much an ongoing discussion. But that's what history is, right? Some people may think of history as a battleground. I personally think that history is a conversation. If it's done properly, it's a conversation that is always searching for other perspectives. And I think the 250th commemoration of the American Revolution, and the unfinished revolutions that transpired after the American Revolution really gives public historians an opportunity to think about the varying levels of New York's history in a way that continues building upon past histories that have gone before us, some of which are not true or not accurate, are blinded by various things like racism, for example. But because of the past work and our understanding of it, we can continue to strive to complete that story. And that's what historians do. And that's what the commemoration, in my opinion, gives us the opportunity to do.

Dr Joe Stahlman: History is a commons. And that's what I try to do in my job. And I'm not really pushing forward any narratives or anything at this point, it's really I see history as kind of a commons and  it should be a place that we don't really get political and battle over. But we do. And I think that's the shame of our field, sometimes, you know, and sometimes we get a little married to our ideologies or the narratives that we have crafted ourselves. And I think if we can just kind of look beyond it a little bit, and just appreciate that there's other stories of the same thing that you might love. I think that might make this a little bit more inclusive. Right, and, and it also makes you feel freer to tell your own story that you might hesitate to tell. 

I hope that there's space for all of our stories, in this, and it's never been one of censorship, it’s just one of like, “Hey, you're not doing the same thing that I would do for you.” And I think the 250th is a great opportunity for really New York to come together. You know, I'm part of so many small networks throughout the state. And I'm just amazed by all of what New York has. I just hope that the listeners kind of go out there into the world with those kinds of eyes, I think sometimes, because: New York's a pretty amazing place.

Devin: Thank you for listening to A New York Minute in History. This podcast is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio and the New York State Museum, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. Our producer is Elizabeth Urbanczyk. 

Lauren: A big thanks to Dr. Scott Manning Stevens. Dr. Nina Versaggi, Dr. Michael Jacobson and Dr. Joe Stahlman for taking part in this month's episode. To learn more about our guests and the show, check us out at wamcpodcast.org. We're also on X and Instagram, as @NYHistoryMinute.

Devin: I'm Devin Lander, 

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts. 

Devin: Until next time:

Both:  Excelsior!

Marker of Focus: The Fox Sisters, Newark, Wayne County

Guests: Tracy Murphy, executive director of the Historic Palmyra Museums; and David Stiles, former president of the Newark-Arcadia Historical Society

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading:

Ann Braude, Radical Spirits: Spiritualism and Women’s Rights in Nineteenth-Century America

Amy Lehman, Victorian Women and the Theater of Trance: Mediums, Spiritualists and Mesmerists in Performance

Simone Natale, Supernatural Entertainments: Victorian Spiritualism and the Rise of Modern Media Culture

Barbara Weisberg, Talking to the Dead: Kate and Maggie Fox and the Rise of Spiritualism

Teaching Resources:

Adam Matthew Digital, Nature and Scope – Spiritualism, Sensation and Magic

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. Today we're going to be focusing on a marker located at 1510 Hydesville Road in the village of Newark, which is in Wayne County out in western New York. The marker’s placed on what is now the site of the Hydesville Memorial Park, and the text reads: “The Fox sisters. On this site, events of March 31, 1848 began sisters Maggie and Kate Fox’s central role in the origin of modern spiritualism. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2016.”

Some of you may know the story of the Fox sisters, but before we talk about Maggie and Kate and exactly what the “events” are, that are mentioned on the sign, let's take a minute to remind everyone what spiritualism is. Spiritualism is the belief that the living can communicate with the dead, or the spirit of the dead. And of course, this isn't a new concept. This has, in different iterations, been believed around the world for centuries. But the religious movement we're talking about today, which we refer to as modern spiritualism, that's what really begins or takes off here in America with the advent of the Fox sisters and their abilities to commune with the dead. And like most religious movements that take off during that time period, they begin in New York. What was it that made the location and the time ripe for these ideas to really take hold?

Devin: I think it was a lot of things. Actually, if we think about the date that the fox sisters begin allegedly communing with the dead, it's 1848. Right. And we know, in the same general area of Central Western New York, was a big event happening in 1848. And that was the suffrage convention at Seneca Falls, there was a lot of other things happening. We know that the Erie Canal was completed in 1825, and kind of opened up central and western New York to more settlements, places like Rochester started to boom. By the 1840s and mid 1840s. The railroads were really coming in strong in upstate New York and opening even more access to transportation of goods, but also of people and also of ideas. So there was a ferment happening in upstate New York, as it became known was the burned over district because of all of the various religious movements and different social movements like temperance like suffrage, like abolition, were all taking place. Because of that it kind of created the fertile soil, so to speak for something like modern spiritualism to take root.

Lauren: So now that we've set the stage, let's go back to the hamlet of Hydesville, which is within the village of Newark, and how the Fox sisters fit into this time period.

Tracy: Hi, my name is Tracy Murphy. I am the director of Historic Palmyra, which has five museums. And I'm also the historian for the Fox sisters’ property in Newark, New York, or Hydesville as I like to call it. And I am also a member of the Newark Arcadia Historical Society.

They actually came to this little house in 1847, and they were there with their mother and father John and Margaret Fox. Their father was a blacksmith by trade. Obviously, their mother was a homemaker. The girls’ names were Margaretta and Catherine, and they were fondly called “Maggie” and “Kate” by their family. And their family moved there because they were building a home that was about two-and-a-half miles up the road, on Parker Road, from where the property is today. And they wanted to be closer to their son, David, whose home is still standing.

Lauren (to Tracy): So they were renting this house while they were building their new house?

Tracy: That's correct. They were not the first family to actually live in the house. They were about the third family that moved in. It was December, so it was pretty cold. They were really only there for a few months. However, moving into the cottage, one of the first things Mrs. Fox said was “This house is haunted.”

It very much started out as just, you know, quiet little tappings. Like someone would be tapping on your window or your door. And they would go and look and see where the noises were coming from, and could never really find an explanation. And it went on for weeks and weeks, until finally, March 31, the family decided that they were all going to bed early. They were not going to be entertained by this noise that kept happening every night, and their mother instructed the girls that they were to go to bed and nothing was going to be said about this. And so that's pretty much what happened. They got all settled into bed, and all of a sudden the noises started again.

Lauren: Later in 1848, the Fox sisters’ mother, Margaret, actually publishes a testimony of what happened in the house. And this is a piece of it: “On Friday night, the 31st of March, it was heard as usual…It was very early when we went to bed on this night, hardly dark. We went to bed so early because we had been broken so much of our rest that I was almost sick. My husband had not gone to bed when we first heard the noise on this evening. I had just laid down and it commenced as usual. I knew it from all other noises I had ever heard in the house. The girls, who slept in the other bed in the room, heard the noise and tried to make a similar noise by snapping their fingers. The youngest girl is about 12 years old. She is the one who made her hand go, and as fast as she made the noise with her hands or fingers, the sound was followed up in the room. It did not sound any different at that time, only it made the same number of noises that the girl did. When she stopped, the sound itself stopped for a short time. The other girl, who was in her 15th year, then spoke in sport and said, ‘Now do this just as I do. Count one, two, three, four.’ etc., striking one hand and the other at the same time.”

Tracy: But she made no sound, and they heard an immediate four raps. To which she responded, “Oh Mother, look! They can see as well as hear.” They say that Mrs. Fox’s hair turned gray within 24 hours, and I don't doubt it.

Lauren (still reading): “And then I spoke and said to the noise, ‘Count ten.’ And it made 10 strokes or noises. Then I asked the ages of my different children, successively, and it gave a number of raps corresponding to the ages of my children.”

Tracy: What ended up happening is that their son, David, caught wind of what was going on. And so he came down – this was all still on March 31. He came down, and he suggested writing the letters of the alphabet on pieces of paper and then asking this unknown rapping noise what his name was. You know, first they had to ask, “Is this a human that makes this noise?” to which the response was, “No.” Then they asked, “Is this a spirit?” “Yes.” Once they confirmed that they were dealing with a spirit, then they tried to get more information, which they did. They found out his name was Charles Rosna. He was a traveling peddler who had stopped at the house two families before the Foxes – [and he also said] that he had been murdered and buried in the basement. And so the family went into the basement the next day and started looking for him. Unfortunately, they would start to dig, and they would get a few feet into the ground, and then the basement would start to flood. So, they did eventually have to give it up. They tried a few times, they tried again in July, but it just kept flooding. So, they eventually gave up.

Lauren: I would have been out of that house. I [wouldn’t be] hanging around. But the mother decides – and they're all devout Methodists – the mother decides that she's going to bring in the neighbors to see what they think. Outside opinion, what's going on here. They bring in the neighbors, and they're convinced too. Eventually, the parents decide it's best to get the daughters out of this situation. Maybe it's just the environment, the house that is affecting them. So, they move the two sisters to Rochester to live with their older sister. And now once the girls get into Rochester and are living with the older sister, rather than the rapping decreasing, it seems to increase. And their spiritual communications seem to get stronger.

Devin: One of the reasons it may be that the rappings continue and actually grow in frequency while they're in Rochester is that their sister, Leah, makes a determination that people will pay to come see them. She comes up with the idea of charging people $1 to have a seance with the Fox sisters.

Tracy: She became their manager, and she basically made sure that they went on a world tour and traveled as far as England.

Maggie being the older of the two, honestly, I don't think her heart was in it. Kate, out of the two, was probably the strongest medium, had a little more skill, and I think it was because she was younger. It definitely wasn't easy. You did have a few religions, and Wayne County was known as the Burned Over District because of all of the different religions that were coming all of the time. It seemed like every weekend there was, you know, a Methodist revival or a Presbyterian revival. You had the Mormons, the Shakers, the Quakers. Some say there were the “moneymakers.” It really was a rough time for a lot of people, I think to really understand where the loyalty lied. Every time there was a demonstration, there would be someone right behind them saying, “You just faked it. I saw you move your toe, I saw you do this.”

First of all, women didn't really have much of a choice when it had to do with anything. We were property. We didn't have a voice, we couldn't vote. When the girls were doing demonstrations, you had a panel of scientists and physicians who basically said, “We know you're faking it, and we're going to prove it.” And they would make them strip down to nothing and stand on tables while they were calling spirits, to show that they can do these demonstrations. And the men would hold their knees or any of the joints, to make sure that they weren't doing what they thought they were. They came to the conclusion, especially when they did a demonstration in Corinthian Hall, which was in Rochester, that there was no logical explanation for what they were doing.

Devin: So the fame of the Fox sisters spreads almost instantly. Again I think it's because of the time. We start seeing rapping spiritualists, as they're known, kind of popping up around New York, New England, eventually even beyond. It's a phenomenon where, suddenly, other people can do this. It was something that really began with the Fox sisters, and they continued to be the most famous – and in some cases, their fame led to some distasteful events taking place, including Maggie almost being kidnapped in Troy, New York, after one of their seances, by a group of men who were offended by her ability to speak with the spirits. So, it wasn't all celebrity wining and dining for these kids at the time. And in 1849, they actually made an attempt to stop doing their routine with spiritualism by saying that the spirits were no longer going to be talking to them. It didn't last very long, and within a couple of weeks, they were again communing with the spirits. So, it was something that took off and eventually had an entire community of people around the nation believing in it, including some of the more prominent suffragists during the time, like Matilda Joslyn Gage. Others really wanted to believe, I think, because they had recently undergone a tragedy: maybe they lost a child, or they lost somebody close to them, and they wanted to be able to talk with the person from the beyond – which was something that many of the spiritualists offered, the ability to talk to your loved ones. As well as celebrities, if you wanted, like the Founding Fathers, including George Washington and Ben Franklin.

Lauren: And as their popularity grows, they start to develop different tactics. It's not just the rapping that occurs, but they go into trances. One of the sisters is able to write a message at the same time she's speaking a different message. They develop these skills and different ways to get their message across to all of these believers who are waiting to hear from their deceased loved ones. And as part of this, you know, they're young girls at the time – they meet potential husbands.

Tracy: Maggie fell in love with a man when she was 16 years old, who was in his late 20s, early 30s. When they were in New York City, he came to see her every single day, and they developed this relationship. Eventually, he was going on a three-year world exploration to Antarctica, and basically told her that he wanted to marry her. Her mother said, “OK.” They were married, in a small ceremony, which basically back then was as easy as the man saying, “I take you as my wife,” and her saying, “I take you as my husband” in front of witnesses, and OK, we’re married. He promised her mother that when he came back, he would announce to the public by putting it in the newspaper that they were married. And you know, everything was wonderful. Being separated from him for three years was hard. But the fact that he died on his trip, at the end of the three years, was even harder. He contracted malaria and died in Havana. She found out through the front page of the newspaper. She basically just became so heartbroken that she never recovered from it, ever. People would find her in New York City laying on random stoops, and she had no idea how she got there, because she was drinking. And that was the only way she knew to cope.

Lauren: They were celebrities of the time, but this only lasted for so long. And as they grew older, of course, Maggie has this bad experience with losing her husband, and does not have a good financial situation – she turns to alcohol. Kate also turns to alcohol. And at the time, there is talk about their older sister, Leah, making threats about Kate not being a fit mother. So, they feel attacked by their sister. And in 1888, something happens that changes the whole perspective on the credibility of the Fox sisters.

Devin: Right, it's Maggie who does a complete public demonstration of how the Fox sisters were able to make the [raps]. And she did so with her sister in the audience, who basically nodded in ascent that they were making these sounds, at least initially, by cracking their toes on wooden floors. Over time, they were able to change and adapt to doing this in front of a larger audience, and do these other actions in a way that was believable and really exceptionally well done. But it turns out that, at least initially, Maggie says it was all a fraud.

Tracy: In 1888, the big confession mostly came about because these are grown women now – they’re in their late 50s. And you've got not a lot of money coming in, because you know, it's just not as good as it used to be. There is a reporter who approaches Maggie, and he basically said, “Listen, why don't you just take this money? I'm going to offer you $1,500, and I just need you to go to the Grand Hall and tell people that you faked this.” And so Maggie went on stage and said that her sister and herself faked the whole thing. They did it because they wanted to scare their mother, and it worked. And then their sister got involved, and their sister basically got greedy, saw that she could make money on these guys, and it spiraled out of control from there.

Lauren: They call this confession, the deathblow to spiritualism.

Lauren [to Devin]: So, what do you think?

Devin: Well, I think it's pretty interesting to think about a time in history when all of the stars were aligned, so to speak, for something like spiritualism to take off – which still exists in some forms. Today, there's still people who commune with spirits and who believe that they can talk with ancestors and with people who are have passed on. There's an entire religious movement that has developed called theosophy, which really developed shortly around the time of the Fox sisters, and was first established in New York City, and this group still exists. They believe in the teachings of Madame Blavatsky, who was a Russian immigrant, who believed that she could commune with what she called “the masters,” who had one truth that was behind all religions, and that they communicated that truth to her, and that she was able to write it down in book form, and then also give talks and teach others how to be able to access the masters. That became a large movement by the end of the 19th Century, and a worldwide movement, again, still exists to this day. So, the Fox sisters were trailblazers, there's no doubt. There is no doubt that they were able to gain a level of fame and notoriety that wasn't common for young women of their day, for sure. We have to think about this as before vaudeville or before any real opportunity for women to be on stages and be the focus of attention in the way that they were. So, they were trailblazers in that regard. And they were also, I think, very much of their time. Their stories were tragic. They both died, essentially, alcoholics, kind of penniless. They weren't well known by the time they passed away.

Lauren: It kind of reminds me of, sometimes, we hear stories about child actors. Where they have this fame early on, right? They start from relative obscurity – which is true of the Fox sisters, they're in this very small rural town, with not a lot of entertainment going on, not a lot of things to branch out, and not a lot of opportunity for them. When you're around 12/15 years old, and they see their mother, you know, that's kind of the normal trajectory for women in that location at that time to take. If it did start out as a way to scare their mother, or if they really believed that they were hearing something, either way, this was a way to change their lives and to have experiences that they never would have had, if it hadn't been for this unusual talent that they seemed to have.

Tracy: When people hear the story, they always focus on the confession. That, “Yup, it was a hoax. She told everybody, and she did it in public.” And I always come back with the fact that in 1904, the house was still standing in Hydesville. There were school children playing in the basement, and one of those children fell into the wall, and the wall broke apart. And behind the wall was the skeletal remains of a man, and a tin pack that was very similar to what a peddler traveling in 1846, ’47, ‘48 would have had as well.

Lauren: So let's go back and talk about what happened to the house. The house was there for several more years. In fact, it stayed there until 1916, when the house was moved to a place called Lilydale, which is a community south of Buffalo known for mediumship and spiritual healing. And it remained in Lilydale until 1955, when unfortunately, it burned down. So, the house no longer exists. However, back in Hydesville, the foundation remained, and an interesting gentleman named John Drummond came and moved onto the property and built a replica house there. So, if you go to Hydesville today, you can visit the Hydesville Memorial Park, which is what the property is now called. And you can look through the windows and see the foundation. You can see down into the foundation, where the story of the murdered peddler takes place. You can see the false wall in the foundation. Many people go there today. And in 2016, the local historical society decided that it would be a good idea to apply to the William G. Pomeroy Foundation to mark the site as the start of the modern spiritualism movement.

In order to learn more about the process, we spoke with David Styles, past president of the Newark Arcadia Historical Society, who formed the committee in order to get this marker erected.

David: That was a back-and-forth type of thing. Many times, Tracy, I'm sure you remember that a little bit. I bet you I came back to you at least three, four, maybe five times at least before we got the wording just like they wanted it – both size and number of letter constraints, and what was written.

Tracy: And we had to prove it. We had to prove everything that we were saying [on the marker].

The big confession, you know, it became known as the death blow to spiritualism. But honestly, when you've got a wildfire that burns strong for so many years, it's hard to put it out. We had the numbers over here, it had already been big in the UK. So, by 1888, we had hundreds of thousands of spiritualists living in America, that I don't think it made much of a difference. The importance of their story is that you can do anything that you put your mind to, even if other people think you're crazy. They never gave up. They stayed true to themselves. And look at them: 175 years later, we're still talking about them. You know, it’s not every day you get to start a movement.

Marker of Focus: Florence, Oneida, Oneida County

Guests: Jessica Harney, Camden High School social studies teacher; Rebecca McLain, executive director of the Oneida County History Center; and Matt Kirk, principle investigator at Hartgen Archeological Associates

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading: 

“New Historical Marker Planned at Site Oneida Abolitionist Bought for Black Families to Own,” Edward Harris, Observer-Dispatch, April 14, 2023.

From Slavery to a Bishopric, or, The Life of Bishop Walter Hawkins of the British Methodist Episcopal Church Canada, S.J. Celestine Edwards, 1891. Bishop Hawkins was one of the residents of the Florence Farming and Lumber Association before moving to Canada.

Practical Dreamer: Gerrit Smith and the Crusade for Social Reform, Norman K. Dann, 2009.

Information about Stephen Myers: https://www.albany.edu/arce/MyersXX.html

Teaching Resources:  

Consider the Source New York: Finding Florence

Columbia University Mapping the African American Past

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. Today we're focusing on a marker located on Florence Hill Road in the town of Florence in Oneida County, which is in the central part of New York state. And the text reads: “Florence Farming Association existed here circa 1848-1860. Settlement of free Blacks promoted by Stephen Myers, other notable abolitionists. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2016.”

Now, the Florence Farming Association was a community of free Blacks established in the 1840s. And it may sound familiar to some of our listeners, who remember our episode on Timbuctoo up in Essex County. They are related in that they come out of the same idea from Gerrit Smith, about enabling African Americans to own land in the hopes that they would then be able to vote in New York state.

Devin: Absolutely. The Timbuctoo episode that we did a couple years ago was something that I think some people knew about, because John Brown was associated with Timbuctoo. Less people, certainly, know about the Florence Farming Association. But for a little bit of background about why Gerrit Smith and these abolitionists came up with this idea to give away land, let's revisit what we discussed with author Amy Godine, during the Timbuctoo episode.

Amy: It really starts, in my view, around 1821 or so, when the New York state Assembly enacted a law which deprived Black, free New Yorkers of the right to vote unless they could prove they owned $250 worth of real property. It was racialized voter suppression, with the intent of tamping down the possibility of an anti-slavery voting block that could vote against slavery's business interests, and it was very effective. This law would effectively disenfranchise Black New Yorkers really until 1870. It wasn't stripped from the books, and then only by federal law, not by state law. So, this law was despised by progressives, by Black New Yorkers, by white abolitionists, and all reformers, and they had tried again and again to work up a way to take it down to get it retracted. And in 1846, at the next constitutional convention for New York, an opportunity arose to address this again. And Gerrit Smith, the radical abolitionist reformer, who was also incredibly wealthy and land rich, maybe anticipated that this vote would not go the way he and other reformers hoped. And so, he came up with an idea to give away his own land in mostly 40-acre parcels to as many as 3,000 Black New Yorkers all over the state, but mostly in New York City, to help them meet this voting requirement. Not that the deeds equaled $250 – but if they moved to the land and improved the land and approved their lots, they would gain this value soon enough. So, it was his hope that in giving away land he didn't want to people who he felt needed to get out of cities, which were mob-ridden and intransigently racist and unfriendly to Black advancement – he would be striking a blow on so many fronts.

Devin: One of the prominent abolitionists that Gerrit Smith worked with to help promote his plan, but also who he gave land to, was Stephen Myers, who was a very prominent abolitionist and African American – a former enslaved man himself who was a conductor on the Underground Railroad, and who lived in Albany. He was also the publisher of several abolitionist newspapers and magazines, and became a prominent speaker in different places around the Northeast about abolition. Again, for longtime listeners to our program, you will recognize the name Stephen Myers, because in January 2020, we actually toured the Myers residence in Albany, which was a station on the Underground Railroad during the 19th Century. And at the Myers’ residence, we spoke to Paul and Mary Liz Stewart, who are experts on the Myers.

Mary Liz: When vigilance committee members met in the front parlor of the Stephen and Harriet Myers residence, one of the things that was a real eye opener for us – I mean, we assumed that as abolitionists, their first task would be to strategize on how to abolish the institution of slavery and what kind of strategies they would engage in to do that. Then, of course, there was the understandable issue of how to meet the needs of freedom seekers coming into town and coming through the front door of the Myers’ residence. So certainly, those would be at the top of their agendas. But as we continued our research, what also emerged were documents that identified the fact that these abolitionists were also dealing with issues of equity, housing, voting rights, health care, jobs, education – you know, it's very similar to what we still talk about today. And yet, these issues were very much part and parcel of their activism. So, for Black abolitionists, we find that they are not just concerned about this institution of slavery and its abolition and meeting the needs of freedom seekers, but they recognize the need for addressing issues of equity across the board. And while they're doing all these things, they're working full time. This story is much bigger and much more comprehensive than it is usually given credit for.

Lauren: Now, although these two communities are related, they differ in the way that the lots were given out, and also in the way that there was a more communal aspect to the Florence Farming Association, as opposed to where Timbuctoo was a little bit more individualized.

Devin: So, we tried to get an idea of what Florence, which is, again, in Oneida County, which is kind of a rural area – now what was Florence like, and what was Oneida County like in the 1840s? To get more information on that, we spoke to Rebecca McLain, the executive director of the Oneida County History Center.

Rebecca: Hello, I'm Rebecca McLain. The Florence Farming Association falls within our geographic boundaries of the history that we cover. And we are most recently associated with the site through Jessica Harney.

Jessica: I am a high school history teacher for Camden High School. My association with Florence has been through research that I've done personally, but I’ve also been able to involve my students in. I'm on the cabinet of freedom for the National Abolition Hall of Fame and Museum, and also have worked closely with the Oneida County Freedom Trail Commission.

Devin [to panel]: So how many people eventually settled in the community?

Jessica: It's hard to say. What appears to be a big difference between the more notable Timbuctoo site is that the Florence site was a community. The men working in Florence incorporated into the Florence Farming and Lumber Association, and they're promoting their site as a place where we’ll be able to have some of these shared resources, that we'll be working together to develop the land. The newspapers suggest that they have divided some of the land up into to 100 village lots that contained a quarter of an acre each. So of course, that would not be enough to get individual voting rights. So, we kind of see a shift in the purpose and intention of this settlement, as opposed to what Timbuctoo was. There's a total of about 25 acres that they're working with, to divide up into those smaller 100 village lots. They're also, in their newspapers, promoting that there may be 80-100 people living on site.

Basically, we're limited by what we know for historical records. In terms of the 1850 census, and the 1860 census, we can begin to tell a story of who actually made their way and who was on the site in 1850. To get kind of a little bit more of a specific answer, when we look at 1855, which was the New York state census. And then we've further been able to break that down by finding a rare gem in some Oneida County archives. That was a random box of Florence records from 1853 to 1859. So that sort of helped us narrow the gap. And ongoing research is happening on that to be able to, you know, figure out exactly who is living there.

Devin [to panel]: Let me kind of get a broad view here and ask Rebecca: can you tell us what was Oneida County, like in 1840s and 50s? You know, who was already living there, who was maybe coming and going and what kind of industries there were?

Rebecca: Utica was kind of a growing city center, it had just become a city about a decade earlier, after the completion of the Erie Canal. You do see a lot of transportation throughout the county, we’re just in a good geographic point. And then I think a lot of the surrounding towns were still, I mean, just like it is today, you can get pretty rural pretty fast. In general, in the county, there would have been, in terms of demographics early on, German immigrants who have come through. And Irish.

Devin [to panel]: Was there a large African American community at this time?

Rebecca: In Utica, I think there was. It wasn't huge, but there was definitely an African American population that was in Utica and Rome.

Devin [to panel]: One of the things that we found when we were doing our work on and speaking to people about Timbuctoo – so many of these African American families that tried to move there, they were the only African American people there, essentially. Do we have any record of like, what the local reaction was, or from the settlers themselves, what their interactions may have been with the neighbors? Because again, we had some examples up in Timbuctoo of negative interactions, and actually people stealing their land and telling them that their parcel began in a swamp, and you know, “Well, this isn't very good farmland. So why don't you just sell it to me? I'll give you $1” or whatever. There was a lot of that happening there. So, any evidence of any interactions, good or bad?

Jessica: At this point in our research, we have not found anything overtly negative. Florence is being settled, I would say, pretty simultaneously by the Black Americans moving into this region. We also have Irish immigrants that are coming into the region as well. They end up staying, and they're overwhelmingly still represented today, in the Florence community. What we do know is that they're going to really lean on that Rome community for support. So, we know from the newspaper documentation that in October of 1849, Reverend Peterson out of Rome, also worked as an agent for the organization, he collected money and donations and materials from Massachusetts and Maine. And there's a report of those items that were brought in. They listed a box of very useful books, a bag of very useful articles about farming techniques and things. So, it seems as though, at least from what is being produced in the newspapers, it seems positive. But again, we would be cautious to just look at what we have access to, because there's always more to the story.

What we see here is a pivot away from Gerrit Smith’s initial purpose behind his gift, and we're not completely sure how well supported that pivot was. But from here, we have a pooling of resources happening under the leadership of the Florence Farming Association. And we have, you know, a very well-structured governance over that organization. We have people that are serving as president, vice president, secretary of that organization. So there's more to be pieced out about the functions of the organization. But we do know that they're having meetings, and they're doing a lot of self-promotion to get more people to move to the area.

Matt: Can I jump in a little bit with that? I'm Matt Kirk. I'm an archaeologist. I've been working in the Albany area for over 30 years now. And it's important to know, too, that Gerrit Smith has the idea – he has the resources, but he's not managing the properties on a daily basis. He's selected a local individual, he puts him in charge of the land development, and it's with him and Stephen Myers, who come up with the idea of exactly how to subdivide the property Smith owns. But he, it seems to me was a little bit concerned about the way Myers had developed these small lots.

Devin: The way that Myers set up the Florence farming Association definitely ruffled some feathers among his contemporaries, including with Frederick Douglass. Famously, in 1849, Douglass wrote Myers a letter basically criticizing him because he was not giving the land away, he was charging money for parcels. And Frederick Douglass felt that that was contrary to the ideas that Gerrit Smith came up with, and others. Myers wrote him a reply on March 17, 1849, and he really went out of his way to say that they were looking to build things like sawmills, and use the trees that they were clearing to create agricultural land, and have them made into lumber, which they would then sell. So it really is an attempt, as you noted, for a communal self-sustaining community – but there needed to be some sort of investment money up front. And the charging of money for the parcels was a way for Myers not to benefit himself or to get rich off from this, but instead to raise capital so that they could invest it back into the community. It's an interesting difference between Timbuctoo, which was more of the original idea – “Here’s 40 acres for a family, and now go cultivate it and raise the value that way.” This was a little bit different. It was more of an idea about creating a sustainable community. And I think that's why it was something that actually ended up being more successful in a way and lasting longer than Timbuctoo.

Matt: You know, there were 50-some-odd families that settled. A certain number of people remained for over a decade in Florence, which I think is somewhat remarkable, given the circumstances that were there.

Jessica: Stephen Myers seems as though he is doing a lot of a lot of the legwork from Albany. He's doing promotion, because that's what he's good at, right? He's a newspaper guy. He's using his contacts that he has, and they're targeting not just folks to move out of Utica and Rome, they're really reaching as far south as Washington, D.C. They're reaching New Bedford, Massachusetts, which is notable for some of the abolitionists, like Frederick Douglass, who came through that city. These are known Underground Railroad sites. And that helps paint the picture that this is more than a land scheme. This is more than about voting. This is also harboring folks that are trying to seek freedom. And there are some names that are really notable that go on to tell their story, what they were doing. And the one that comes to mind is Walter Hawkins. He was a resident for a number of years, and then he eventually went on and moved to Canada. But he became a well-known reverend, and a biography was written about him. And there's an entire chapter on life as a farmer, living in Florence.

Devin [to panel]: Wow. Did Stephen Myers – I read the letter that he wrote March of 1849, to Frederick Douglass, and he mentioned that he was going to move to Florence. Do we know if he ever actually did that?

Jessica: We don't know for sure.

Matt: He gave indications that it was his intent to move there. I think he even mentioned that he was going to try to start a newspaper in Florence. But my sense is that the reason that the settlement failed was from forces way outside of Stephen Meyers’ control.

Lauren: Though it was successful, there were outside forces that then led to the downfall of the community. And the main force was the 1850 Fugitive Slave Law that was passed in New York, that essentially said, “It didn't matter where you were in a free state in New York, you could be brought down south back to slavery.” New York wasn't safe for them anymore. A safer place to be would be Canada, and so by the end of the 1850s, there seems to be a real falling off of the Florence community. Although it's possible that some people stayed longer, the vision that Stephen Myers had kind of comes to a close after the fugitive slave law and into the later 1850s and early 1860s.

Devin: That's very true. And unfortunately, the Fugitive Slave Act was incredibly disruptive for both formerly enslaved African Americans and those who are never enslaved. Because basically, the burden of proof would have been on them to prove that they had not been a slave at some point. And there were these terrible stories of free Blacks being abducted and taken into slavery.

One of the things that is very interesting about Florence right now is how early on in the historical process we are, with the work of Jessica Harney and Rebecca McLain and archaeologist Matt Kirk. They're very early on in establishing who was there, where these people may have gone, and then also uncovering the archaeology and the evidence literally underground of this community.

Lauren: This stuff's hard to find. And it's not like you can go to the archives for a day, and then you've got a story. Many of [the residents] leave and go to Canada for their safety. So what records are they leaving? If there are memoirs and family letters and things like that, they end up, usually, down in generation. So, until you find where those families go to, it's very difficult to locate the documents that then give more of a glimpse into what Florence was really like. But that being said, there are records that turn up all the time. Jessica made reference to the box of documents in the county archives that inform them about the tax records for Florence. These are great finds, and it does happen in small archives around the state. I have personal stories about how you find a box on the shelf of something that you had no idea existed the year before, and now you have this treasure trove for researchers. So just because we don't have a lot of documented evidence about the Black experience doesn't mean that that will always be that way. And so, it's great that they continue to do this research, and also that Jessica Harney is including her high school students in this research.

Devin: One of the issues that archaeologists Matt Kirk has, as you noted, the structures that were there were displaced or torn down in some cases – but also the land that made up the Florence Farming Association has changed hands over the years, many times in some cases. Most of it is now private property. But some of it is part of the state forest. And when we spoke to Matt Kirk, he told us a little bit more about some of the success they've had in uncovering remains of what might be the Florence Farming Association.

Matt: We've had success in locating at least three of farmsteads because they were reoccupied, some of them, by Irish immigrants afterwards. Part of our job is to tease out which archaeological deposits and features that we find were part of minor settlements and which were from later inhabitants. But in that way, I think we've also had some success. There are other properties that we think harbor additional archaeological resources. It's on state land. So, there are regulations that protect these archaeological resources, and you need to file for what's known as a 233 permit to do excavations. So, to this point, virtually all we've done is surface reconnaissance of walking through the forest with our volunteers and with the high school students.

We can measure success in a number of different ways. The one that I measure the most is that we have a really great partnership with Camden Central High School, where we get to take community members to this historical site that, especially now that the historical sign is no longer there, has no real physical presence in the community.

Lauren: So, if you happen to go to Florence Hill Road today, you won't find the sign. In January of 2022, the local highway department reported that the sign had gone missing. Now, it's unclear why this happened, but it's not unique. Sometimes with historical markers, they do turn up missing. Sometimes it is innocent in that it gets hit by a snowplow or there's a car accident, or sometimes the ground floods and it loosens up where the sign is. But other times, it's purposeful destruction of historic markers. And that's what it seems like it is in this case.

Devin: But the good news is there is a replacement on the way. Sometime in the summer of 2023, a new marker will be erected in the spot where the old one was. It will say the same text, and it will once again prominently show that the Florence Farming Association was part of the local history, and it will allow for students and others to perhaps learn more about it and discover more facts.

So, what do you do if a marker in your community is damaged or destroyed?

Lauren: It really depends on who erected the marker. In this case, the marker was erected by the William G. Pomeroy Foundation, and they were nice enough to offer half of the funds for a replacement, and then the organization wanting to replace the sign raised the other half. If it's not a Pomeroy marker, the majority of those blue and yellow markers are often put up by State Ed or by local, either historical societies or towns, municipalities. In that case, it really is up to the municipality to replace the marker. I know that in our county, we've had some instances, like if it gets hit by a car, there's car accident, that you can claim it on the insurance company and have it replaced that way. But if you were to go to Pomeroy and ask them to replace a sign that wasn't erected originally by them, you would have to go through the full application process and prove what you wanted to say on the sign.

Devin: So, like every topic we deal with on this program, we are thinking about what does it mean today? What's the legacy of the Forest Farming Association? And really, we touched on some of it: the importance of understanding that New York has a long history of racial discrimination in some cases, even in legislation like the 1821 act that required African American men to have a wealth of $250 to vote. But on a more local level, we asked our guests what their thoughts were.

Jessica: There's actually several things that I hope my students take away from this. First and foremost, is that all the history that we study is local history as well. It's literally in our backyard. This community exists eight miles from our high school. Something really, really hard was done here in this community for folks to try to start their lives, to be productive. Oftentimes, our students don't see themselves in their history books. Being farmers in Florence is extremely relatable for my students. This is their family; this is their experience as well. I also really want them to understand and respect public history, making sure that they understand how I acquired the roadside marker for the community, understanding the research. And then we've worked really closely with the DEC, and I want my students to understand how to interact with the land that's public land. I'm very grateful that my school district and my students have gotten behind this and support all this work that we've been able to do.

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Marker of Focus: Las Villas, Ulster County, Plattekill

Guests: Ismael “Ish” Martinez, author of Las Villas of Plattekill and Ulster County; Jimmy Castro, Founder/CEO of Ritmo Caribe Promotions and director of Back to Las Villas

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King.  Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading: 

Ishmael “Ish” Martinez Jr., Las Villas of Plattekill and Ulster County

Christina Perez Jimenez and J. Bret Maney, The Latino Catskills Project

Sherrie Baver, Angelo Falcón and Gabriel Haslip-Viera (editors), Latinos in New York: Communities in Transition

Benjamin Lapidus, New York and the International Sound of Latin Music, 1940-1990

Teaching Resources:  

Columbia University Institute of Latin American Studies K-12 Outreach Program

National Endowment for the Humanities EDSITEment Hispanic and Latino Heritage and History in the United States

New-York Historical Society & El Museo del Barrio Nueva York Classroom Materials 

NYC Public Schools Hispanic Heritage Month

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On this episode, we'll be talking about a marker located in the town of Plattekill in Ulster County. Located in the Catskills region of the state, this marker sits at the intersection of Huckleberry Turnpike and County Road 13, which is also known as Plattekill Ardonia Road. And the text reads: "Las Villas. Named given Plattekill and Catskills resorts offering Latin music, food and culture from circa 1914. This road gateway to their locations. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2020."

So before we started working on this episode, I had never heard of las villas before. I wasn't aware that there was an area of the Catskills that catered to Latino and Hispanic people. So I spoke with Ish Martinez, who grew up at las villas, and he helped us to understand what "las villas" actually means.

Ish: My name is Ishmael Martinez Jr, and I actually grew up in one of the villas that my parents owned. So that's what gives me most of my background about the villas. Aside from that, I did a lot of research once I decided that I was going to write a book about las villas. I felt it was something that was important. I felt it was an interesting and an important era for our town, and for Latinos in general.

"Villa" itself, it's a kind of a polysemous word. It has many meanings. It can mean "country house," it can mean "country estate," it can even mean "small village." But in in the context of the villas, it was more or less a country house. As you may know, the Catskills and the Hudson Valley has always been an area of retreat, and resorts, and people going out to see the scenery and get the fresh air. And at the time, farms were coming up for sale. It wasn't very far from New York City. And so Plattekill just happened to be the place — it was kind of random — to spend time in the country in these country houses.

Devin: Las villas was a new topic to me as well. I had no idea that this group of resorts existed in in the Catskills — and existed for as many decades as they did. The marker references 1914, but there's some evidence that some of the early villas began as early as 1912. And these were established, first, by Spanish people, who were residing in New York City and looking for a place to get out of the city. Especially in the summertime, it gets a little oppressive down there. And they were looking for somewhere in the countryside where they could meet as a group and go as families and friends. That's really the genesis for this. And then it exploded by the 1930s and 40s, and especially the 1950s. As more and more people gained access to transportation, cars, and even buses were used to bus people from the city up to Ulster County by the hundreds. [Las villas] really took off, and they eventually numbered over 50.

Lauren: When I spoke with Ish Martinez, he talked about how his parents got started in the las villas community.

Ish: My mother was a born in Brooklyn to Puerto Rican parents, and then she moved to a place called "el barrio." And some people might be familiar with that. It's Spanish Harlem, between 90th Street and 116th Street, in general, on the East Side of Manhattan. And it had a very large Hispanic community, mostly Puerto Ricans, but there were some Spanish [people], there were Cubans, and then later on Dominicans and South Americans. So my parents met in el barrio, and that's where they grew up. Early on in the 40s, they were actually customers to las villas, and they used to come up to Plattekill to a place called Villa Rodriguez, and Villa Rodriguez was the first villa, as far as my research tells me, that was established in particular around the 20s. My parents started coming up there in the 40s, and they enjoyed it so much. They loved the area. And at some point, my dad just decided that they wanted to move to Plattekill, and they bought a farm. They started out as farmers — that lasted only a year or two — there were chickens and some cows and pigs. But with all the villas already established in the area, they saw that as a better alternative for them. And they quickly turned it into a villa. My dad, having had a carpentry background, built most of the villa, aside from the original farmhouse that they had. He built rooms, dining halls, dance halls, and the bar.

Lauren [to Ish]: And so did you continue to live in the farmhouse part of it?

Ish: We did at first. They bought the business in 1948. By 1955, we had moved full-time to Plattekill. Before that, we would come up on weekends and whenever we could, because my dad was still working in New York City. But then finally, when we moved up, he built a house for us to live in. So we built our own house — my father, sister, and her husband also moved up and built a house. So we had our own home, and then the villa had the buildings that accommodated all the rest.

The name of the villa was Sunny Acres Hotel. It was funny, because the name was invented by my father's sister, my aunt Stella. And she had seen the name in the funny papers. Somewhere she saw a farm called Sunny Acres, and so she brought that to his attention. They liked the name, and the name stuck. And even though it doesn't have a Latino ring to it, you know, you get a lot of variations on what people called it based upon whether they have an accent or don't have a Spanish accent. But yeah, that's the name of it. And it went on for about 22 years. It was around for a while.

As a child of villa owners, naturally, you are expected to do your share in taking care of the villa. So, my jobs were numerous. I took care of the swimming pool. I mowed the grass, I trimmed the hedges. I cleaned inside — and now, I'm not just talking about me, but our entire family. I have two older brothers, Ron and Larry. I have a younger sister, Carla. We were a true villa family. We all had our part. We all did some work to some extent. My mother certainly worked in the kitchens and took reservations. My dad was kind of like the host with the most, he just had to show up, and it seemed like everyone in town knew him. I couldn't tell you how many people from the city would ask for him by name.

Lauren [to Ish]: I have to imagine that most of the people coming out of the city didn't have their own automobiles, because most people in the city don't. So how are people getting to las villas?

Ish: That is true. Early on in the 20s and 30s, the best form of transportation for many people was actually by boat. They would take boats, sometimes day liners. They would go to the port of Newburgh and Kingston, and from there, they could catch either a bus or, in the case of Kingston, there was a rail line that went out along the Route 28 corridor, where a number of these villas also existed. In Newburgh, there was bus transportation to Plattekill, and to other areas that would bring them to the villas. Of course, over time, as the highways got better, and roads get better, and people were able to afford cars, then bus and cars were the main forms of transportation. The buses in particular, in Spanish, they were called "jiras." J-I-R-A-S. And basically what that was, it was people chartering buses to get them to the villas. And they would come up in droves. I mean, you could get a bus ticket for between $4-$6. At one point, you would see the roads back-to-back with traffic, I mean, bumper to bumper. And a small town like Plattekill almost couldn't take as much transportation as it was getting. So it could be problematic, also, but people seemed to tolerate it.

Lauren [to Ish]: Was it more common to go out for the day, like a day trip? Did it vary?

Ish: Yes, it did. It did vary by family. As I mentioned, the ones that brought up the jiras, the buses, those are generally just daytime visitors. But there were people that had their own cars, and they would come up, and they might stay for a day or they might stay for the weekend, which was when most of the activity was going on in terms of music and so forth. My parents had many visitors who would come up and stay for a week. And so did some of the other villas that were a little bit larger, like the Villa Nueva, the Villa Garcia, the Villa Galicia, and there were several others, the Villa Madrid, the Villa Victoria. So those are places that had week-long visitors. And generally, there would be things for them to do, there would be swimming pools, playgrounds and basketball courts.

In my parent's villa — and I should mention that their names were Ishmael and Lucy Martinez. My dad went by the name of "Shorty," though, for obvious reasons, if you knew him. He was pretty innovative. My dad, he had a lot of ideas about bringing people in, he made sure that there was always some form of entertainment going on to keep the people at the villa when they got there. Because a lot of people would do the "villa hopping:" somebody came, they heard a band, when the break came, they would scurry over to another area where maybe the music was still going on. And of course, there were places to eat. My parents had a restaurant as well. But [my dad] believed that if you kept the people there, they would tend to spend more. And so you would have day and night entertainment. It would start in the afternoon and go all the way — on Saturday night, it would go until 2 a.m. with the bands playing, until the law required that the bar had to close down.

Lauren [to Ish]: Was this one of the premier places where Latinos could kind of celebrate their culture, where there might not have that available to them in the city? Was it kind of a cultural experience as well as a vacation for them?

Ish: Yes, it absolutely was. It was a place where they could congregate and get together and you know, share their culture, the language — and actually, as I mentioned, most of them came out of the city and the New York metropolitan area. So we had people coming from Connecticut, people coming from New Jersey. You had people that had a great allegiance to one villa, and they got to actually know the owners, and even the employees that the villa employed, and it kind of became like a family to them. And there were other people who might test out the waters and try one villa one year and wouldn't be the next. But yeah, you have many loyal customers who would come to the same villa.

Lauren: There was a lot of variety in the villas as well. Some of them were very small, one room, with more of a club-like atmosphere. And then other villas were much bigger, and were more resort-like. You could rent a room there, they had pools and playgrounds for the kids. Some of them had more of a family atmosphere rather than just the nightlife. In general, families seem to come out of the city together and enjoy this, whether it was a day trip — he mentioned that churches would often charter buses so that the church community would go for the day and listen to the music, and have the food, and then head back to the city. But also, there were some people that would go away for the week. So it really varied, and they were all pretty much seasonal: they would start in May, they would close in early fall.

Devin: I think it's interesting, too, that we see, as I noted earlier, that the original villas were created by Spanish people, and then as immigration patterns change in New York City, and there's an influx of Cuban people or Cuban Americans in New York City, they start to come to las villas, in some cases, purchasing their own resorts and taking that over. And then in the 1940s, 50s, and into the 60s and 70s, it starts to be predominantly Puerto Rican immigrants and people of Puerto Rican descent who are spending time in las villas. And I think this is really interesting and indicative of the immigration patterns, again, in New York City, and in New York state itself. It's also very interesting to think that Plattekill is a very small town, and not necessarily a diverse town, either. But because of people establishing businesses and then hundreds and thousands flocking to those businesses every summer, it really becomes a very diverse place, and a very economically successful place.

Lauren: And they were all kind of along one road, because all of these people that were coming up on buses didn't have transportation once they got there. So a lot of the villas had to be within walking distance. He said they called it "villa hopping," where they could go from villa to villa. And he talks about how his father was clever about keeping people at his villa, because he would have one band play a set, and then when they took a break, another band would pick up their break, so that nobody was leaving in between sets. He wanted to have everybody dancing all the time.

Devin: That's a great point. I mean, one of the most interesting and historically significant parts of the story is the fact that las villas became an epicenter for Latino, and specifically salsa, music. There were so many prominent musicians that either got their start there, or at least spent time playing there. And you noted it was because villas were trying to keep as many people there as they could. So they were doing it by trying to attract the best bands, having more bands, also having the best food and cuisine, because that was a huge part of it. I visualize this as a town-wide Latino festival: it's music, it's open grills, and people dancing and drinking and going from site to site and really trying to take it all in during the amount of time that they have there. As you noted, some people didn't have more than maybe one night there, and other people stayed longer.

To get an idea about the importance of las villas for the musicians who were working in New York City and trying to establish a name for themselves, I spoke with Jimmy Castro, who is a music producer and promoter, and also a filmmaker who made a film called Back to Las Villas.

Jimmy: You didn't think about it that much back then. But when I think about it now, it was just so incredible. It was a unique place, you know, a place that was just second to none. There was no nowhere else like it. You know, there was legendary artists today that you name, and they actually started their careers playing in la villa, you know? People like Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro, Hector Lavoe. They were known back then, you know what I mean? And a lot of them, a lot of Latin music legends that, you know, were based in New York at that time, would take the trip just to get out of the city. I mean, they played a lot in New York City, of course, but you know, just to get out of the city every now and then they would travel up to las villas and perform.

Devin [to Jimmy]: They seem to have played a major role not only as a venue, but as a way to get the music out into even larger audiences.

Jimmy: Yeah, that was the thing. A lot of it was word of mouth. Also, you know, these artists coming from New York City driving up on weekends to perform, again, weren't as well known as they are now — and some of them aren't even with us anymore. It was word of mouth to people that visited las villas, and were able to see these artists perform, get to know them. They became fans. The fanbase, of course, grew from them performing in las villas, yes, because a lot of the people that went to las villas, a majority of them are from New York City. They're also driving up.

If you're driving into the town, and you get into the town, and you roll down your windows, you literally hear the music. A lot of the reason it was so popular was because it reminded a lot of people of Puerto Rico, you know, their home, where they came from. And going to las villas was like, you know, they even called it "little Puerto Rico." So, that's the kind of thing that I remember about it. And then, during the production, I reached out to a lot of people asking if they had pictures, videos or anything like that to send me, and I got so much stuff, a lot of stuff I couldn't even use. It was so much, everybody sending me things from all over the world. I'm telling you, from all over the world, I was getting pictures and stories, and I couldn't keep up with it. I mean, I had a really small production team, but you know, producing a documentary, it's really a lot of work, man.

Before I started working on the production itself, I needed to find a narrator for it. Because a documentary has to have a narrator. And I didn't know who I would get. I was trying to think of who can I reach out to, to narrate this. And one night, I was actually in my home, watching the news, Fox News 5 from New York. And one of the meteorologists, her name is Audrey Puente. She's actually the daughter of the famous Tito Puente, the timbales player, right? I was listening to her, you know, doing the weather. And I said, "Man, wouldn't it be great to have her? Because her father performed there." And I sent her a message. And I was so surprised that she really got back to me right away. I called her I explained what I was doing. She didn't hesitate. She said, "I'm in, Jimmy." And so that's how she became, you know, the narrator of this documentary.

Lauren: What is considered to be the golden era, when las villas was the most popular, would be between the 1950s through the 1970s. And once you get into the 1980s, and certainly into the early 90s, it really drops off, and there are less and less villas and less people visiting, largely because it's much easier and more affordable to travel by airplane. And there are other places that are centers of Latin culture such as Florida, where people are frequently visiting, rather than Plattekill.

Travel patterns change. Being from Saratoga Springs, like, after the Victorian era, when everybody started to get their own automobiles, they didn't have to take the train anymore. You know, Broadway was on a downward spiral for a while. So the same is true here.

Many of the people who live in Plattekill now, or in the area, may drive by the area that was known as las villas and not even know what used to be there. And because of this, Ish thought it was important to mark, with a historic marker, the location, and to remember what had been such a huge part of that community.

Ish: I would be remiss if I didn't say that this all got kicked off by my sister, Carla Ramos, who started up Facebook page, called "Las Villas of Plattekill." And that really brought to mind that it was the right time to write the book and to start giving las villas more exposure. Aside from my book, that wasn't anything obvious in the town to tell people that the villas once existed there. I was always interested in [historic] markers and would always stop to read them. And I thought just to myself, you know, "That would be a good way to bring the story of las villas, at least to the attention of people driving through the village or living in the village."

There's a place in the village where there existed a general store. And that was kind of the center of the village. It was the crossroads, really, of people coming through the village, and either continuing up Route 32 to northern Ulster County, or taking the Plattekill Ardonia Road where many of these villas actually were established. It was like our malt shop when we were growing up. And back, when the villas were around, there was an organization that was formed by the villa owners called the Plattekill Tavern Owners Association. And as part of that association, they created one large sign with all the names of the villas and businesses on it. And that sign was located right there, near the general store. And I just felt that crossroad would be a good spot to put the sign.

Lauren [to Ish]: Have you had more people asking about the history?

Ish: I've received a lot of positive feedback from the locals in the town, both Latinos and non Latinos, about the sign. And now there's a certain amount of pride for having that there because, as it turns out, that sign — and it's amazing to me — it's the only historical sign in the town of Plattekill. So I think it has given some exposure and some feedback on the history of las villas. I'm glad it's there.

I think of the environment that I grew up in, and I think about Villa Sunny Acres in its totality, just what it looked like, and you know, that will forever be preserved in my memory. Even though today if you were to go back there, it looks much, much different. The dining room, dance hall, and the bar, that building burned down in 2006. But when I think back about it, I always think about the property in its entirety and all the things I did there as as a child. I think of the swimming pool, and I think of the pond which had rowboats. I think about the dance hall, and how much time I spent there. Actually, as I think about it, when you're in it, you think it will never end! I mean, you see thousands of people flocking to the villas in buses and in cars. Everything was crowded, and there was so much going on. It just felt like it will never end. But you know, things come to an end, and that's just life I guess.

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King.  Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Marker of Focus: Wading River Radio Station, Wading River, Suffolk County

Guests: Dr. Raymond J. Batvinis, former supervisory special agent for the FBI now with the Institute of World Politics; Rev. Matthew Tees, executive director of Camp DeWolfe

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading:

Raymond J. Batvinis, Hoover’s Secret War Against Axis Spies: FBI Counterespionage During World War II

Raymond J. Batvinis, The Origins of FBI Counterintelligence

Neil Kagan, The Secret History of World War II: Spies, Code Breakers, and Covert Operations 

Joshua Levine, Operation Fortitude: The True Story of the Key Spy Operation of WWII that Saved D-Day

Teaching Resources: 

International Spy Museum, Educator Resources

The National Law Enforcement Museum, Virtual Classes

The National WWII Museum, Educator Resources

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On this episode, our marker of focus is not one of the blue-and-yellow New York state Historic markers that we usually talk about. The marker is brown and white, and it's part of another marker program that the William G. Pomeroy Foundation offers called the "National Register Signage Grant Program." This program offers a historic marker to individual properties or districts that have been listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This idea came out of the observation that once a property is listed, there is no provision for signage to acknowledge that accomplishment. So Pomeroy's National Register Signage Grant Program looks to fill that gap so that these sites get the deserved recognition.

The marker we're speaking about today is located at 408 North Side Road in Wading River, Suffolk County, out on the North shore of Long Island, on property that is now part of Camp DeWolfe. And the text reads: "Wading River Radio Station has been placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 2018 by the United States Department of Interior. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2018." So what is the story behind the Wading River Radio Station?

Devin: It's really a fascinating story. And it's not the type of radio station that we think of today, that's playing music or talk radio or something like that. It's really a story of espionage, specifically counter espionage against the Nazis during World War II. Now, we've all heard of the Culper spy ring on Long Island - but I was surprised to learn that Long Island played such a significant role in the FBI's efforts during World War II, specifically in two major places: one of which was in the early 1940s in Centerport, which we'll get into in a minute, and the second that we're talking about mostly today, the Wading River Radio Station, which still exists, the building is still there. As Lauren said, it's part of Camp DeWolfe, which is owned by the Episcopal Diocese of Long Island, and operates as a youth and summer camp. In fact, you can go and stay at the house that the radio station was part of.

Matt: So my name is Reverend Matthew Tees. I'm the executive director of Camp DeWolfe. The Diocese has been around for just about 125 years and Camp DeWolfe has been an organization and mission of the Diocese since 1947. So right after World War II, we started our first year of summer camp. The information that we have about the house, it was originally built, we believe, in 1912. And the story is that it was a sea captain's retirement home, because it's basically right on the Long Island Sound, looking straight across to New Haven - so the widest part of the sound. And at some point, it transferred over to the Owen family. We traced it back online: basically, the family was in New York City in the late 1800s, and like many people they were looking for a house on Long Island to spend vacation time in. And so at some point in the early, I'm gonna say, 1920s and 30s, they purchased the property. Mr. Owens, well, he passed away. His daughter inherited the property, and she never married and she ends up passing away, so it actually went to her sister. And in the 1940s, basically, there was this property that the Owen family held, but they weren't really using. And that's when the FBI approached them to potentially rent out the facility.

Ray: The story really should begin with a case called the Duquesne Case that started for the FBI in February of 1940.

Lauren: To begin the story, we have to bring ourselves back to the World War II era. And just as a quick refresher: Germany invaded Poland in September of 1939, and that's what officially started World War II. Now, America does not get involved in the war until after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December of 1941. So the story starts a little bit prior to our involvement. Just because we weren't actively engaged in the war does not mean that we were sitting back on our laurels and just watching things happen. It was pretty apparent this was going to be another war that engulfed the entire world, so the FBI was certainly watching and getting ourselves ready for when we were going to be actively involved in the war.

Devin: It came to the attention of the FBI that there was a double agent within their midst, a man named William Gottlieb Seybold, who was an American citizen, but had immigrated to the United States from Germany. And upon returning home to visit his family, he was taken captive by the German Secret Service or secret police, and essentially forced into becoming an agent for them. They basically said, "You can't leave Germany, and we'll harm your family if you don't do what we say." So they trained him to be a spy, to broadcast over radio information about the preparation that the United States may be making for World War II - the supplies that they may be thinking about sending to the British, you know, just their plans in general. He was sent to New York to essentially begin his activities. But instead, he contacted the FBI. He was not a Nazi. He was not sympathetic to the German cause. And he said that he would spy on behalf of the FBI. So he became a double agent.

Ray: The FBI set up a radio station in Centerport, New York, which is very close to Huntington, it's a tiny little hamlet. By May of 1940, they made contact with the Germans in Hamburg. And of course, the Germans felt that they were communicating with William Seybold.

Devin: We spoke with Dr. Raymond Batvinis, who not only is a former FBI agent himself, but he's also a historian.

Ray: There's a lot more to the story, but I think what we're focusing on right now is the radio communication. And we learned a great deal [from this case] - we meaning the FBI and the United States government - we learned a great deal. It was a truly a classroom, a master class, for learning the art and craft and science of counter-espionage.

Devin: Because of the efforts of these agents and William Seybold himself, they were able to unearth over 30 German spies and bring them to trial, which essentially crippled the spy network that Germany had in the United States up until that time. Which brings us to Wading River.

Lauren: Right. So by this point, they know how effective the radio communication can be. So it made sense that they would try to set up a new radio station if they could find a similar situation with another double agent.

Devin: And that's really what happened. The Nazis were trying to rebuild their spy network, and so they found a gentleman named Jorge Moscara, who was actually from Argentina, but had an import-export business in Germany. And they basically approached him and demanded - again, they weren't asking - that he become a spy, because he had a network in the United States through his business in South America. So he could kind of travel back and forth and not be very obvious. And they also believed that he was sympathetic to their cause. Again, in the similar manner, they trained him to broadcast, via radio, information that would be sensitive to the war effort of the United States. And this was after 1941, this would have been after Pearl Harbor. So the Nazis were very interested in learning what the United States was doing, what they were planning, where things were going. Same thing happens, though, with Moscara. He tells the FBI, "I want to be a double agent."

Ray: His codename was simply "ND," like Nicolas David: "ND 98." So, he came under the umbrella of the FBI, he explained to them what had happened, and that he had to set up a radio station. So that's what they did. And they, again, set it up out on Long Island, only this time, they went further out.

Devin: The FBI, led by an agent named Richard Millen, who was an expert in radio technology - he was an FBI agent, but he was also an expert in radio technology - he chooses the house in Wading River, which is at the end of a long driveway. It wasn't visible from any kind of major road or anything, it was secluded. But it was also very close to the shoreline. If you put in a radio tower, then you could reach Germany.

Lauren: One of the reasons that New York and Long Island in particular was such an important place for the FBI is because of the proximity to the Brooklyn Navy Yard. New York was really a hub not only of intelligence, but also of industry. And so it made sense, that Moscara would be able to collect information by going into New York City, being in close proximity to the Navy Yard where they could see who was going in and out, and what were the industrial products that they were producing.

Devin: For Millen, it was essentially perfect. And they set up a cover story.

Ray: The cover story was interesting. They put an agent in there, and he had been a radio man in the Navy. So he had those technical skills. He had a wife, and he had a very, very young child. The child was a toddler. The cover story was that he had tuberculosis. The purpose of the tuberculosis story was specifically designed to keep people away. Tuberculosis at that time was a scourge, it was much like polio, and people feared it terribly. So the story that was put out was that he had tuberculosis, that he was actually a lawyer or something like that, that he had money, and that they rented the house. And he needed this for the fresh air to recover. So that was the cover story that they used, and it worked very effectively throughout the war.

Devin (to Ray): Yeah. And we know that there were other agents there as well, and they were completely clandestine. They weren't even allowed, necessarily, to leave the property. So how would they have accomplished doing that for so long? For three years, essentially?

Ray: Yeah, that was a real problem. They had, we believe, about three or four or five radio technicians and agents working out there and living there on the property. The reason for that was Moscara was not the only double agent here in the United States that we were operating. We had about three or four other ones that we were operating, and the shortwave radios were all concentrated in that building. So for example, if you were posing on your radio as ND 98 or Moscara, you would have been tapping out your shortwave radio message. And the person at the other end would become very familiar with your technique for sending the message. It's called fisting. So if there's another agent, there has to be a different person fisting, because the person at the other end in Hamburg would become suspicious if there was the same person fisting for all of these. Is this making sense to you?

Devin (to Ray): Yeah, it does make sense.

Ray: I've spoken to men and women who were shortwave radio operators, amateur radio operators. And they can immediately tell a lot about the individual who is at the other end of the message simply by the fisting technique. It becomes almost like a fingerprint. So you can see why, if there are three or four double agents, you have to have three or four different people there, right? And they were living there, they were eating there - and this woman, she had to do all the cooking, she had all the cleaning. And at the same time, she is trying to raise and take care of a toddler. So it was a very difficult and arduous time for those people out there.

In one case, they had to use another cover story because one of the radio operators that they had out there decided that he wanted to join the military. So they had to come up with another cover story to explain why there was a new person fisting. And Seybold said, "I got another person because my current radio operator has been drafted into the military. So now I've had to find someone who was loyal to Germany, wants Germany to win, he's from the German community, etc." So they actually got another Bureau radio operator to replace that individual. So they ran into a lot of these headaches along the way, a lot of them just administrative and bureaucratic and dealing with personnel. You know, it's typical of these longterm operations that life has a tendency to interfere.

Lauren: As part of keeping this site secret, one of the problems they had was the amount of electricity it took to broadcast these communications to Germany. It would be suspicious if this young couple was consuming so much electricity on a constant basis. So they had to figure out how they could produce their own electricity. And it turns out that they used a car engine in the basement as basically a generator to produce their own electricity. They placed the engine on a concrete block, and that's one of the only pieces of physical evidence that remains in the house today that shows what this house was used for in the 1940s.

Devin: But let's talk a little bit about the operation itself.

Lauren: First of all, the Germans were very interested to know where the Americans were at in the development of the atomic bomb. They felt the Americans were ahead in developing the bomb, when in reality, I don't think that was really the case. But it was very clear that the atomic bomb - whoever learned how to harness that nature first, they were going to come out on top at the end of the war. So sending misinformation about how much progress the United States had made was one of the major components that was being sent to Germany.

Devin: You're absolutely right. And that becomes known really early on when Moscara is first being interviewed by the FBI. He notes that the spy master in Germany, who was a guy named Hans Blum, mentioned that one of the things they were interested in, as you said, was where is the United States when it comes to what he called "smashing the atom." At this point, nobody knew anything about that, even the FBI didn't necessarily know what he was talking about. But in reality, the Germans were moving towards an atomic program. The FBI sent that information up the chain of command and all the way to the president, who eventually greenlit the atomic program in the United States based at least partially on this new espionage information.

Lauren: One of the other operations they had a major effect on was Operation Bodyguard, which was essentially feeding Germany false information about where the Allied invasion of Europe was going to take place. Of course, we know that it took place in Normandy, but at the time, the Wading River Radio Station was feeding information to Germany making it sound like the invasion was going to take place at Pas de Calais, which was the shortest distance, the shortest body of water in between England and France, where the Germans really thought that that was where the Allies were going to invade. And Operation Bodyguard really did a very convincing job, so the Germans did concentrate their forces in that area.

Devin: This was a massive operation. There were several radio stations taking part all over the world, feeding misinformation to the Germans. There was also an entire fake army of rubber tanks, an imaginary army that was supposed to be ready to pounce somewhere and in Europe, anywhere from Norway to Spain. So when the Germans were trying to figure out where they were going to land - because they knew an attack was imminent, they didn't know where and they didn't know when, but they knew that there was going to be an invasion - they assume that the Pas de Calais was was the most logical point, and everything else was a distraction, diverting their attention from the obvious.

So Wading River played a massive role in deceiving the Nazis, but it also deceived their allies, the Japanese. Because of the relationship between Germany and Japan at the time, the Germans were receiving information from Wading River Radio Station and then sending that to the Japanese, anything that had to do with the Pacific theater of war, including Operation Bluebird.

Lauren: They were trying to convince the Japanese that American forces were planning to invade Formosa off the south coast of China. And of course, we end up dropping the atomic bomb, and the Japanese surrender, so there was no invasion of Japan. But this is another way that counter-intelligence was helping to support these operations from the Wading River Radio Station.

Devin: And it's pretty amazing to me how they did this. So they created not only these fictional double agents, but they also created their sources. There was a person that they named "Wash," who they said was a high level War Department official, and someone named "Nevy," who held a post at the Brooklyn Navy Yard - which we said earlier, was so important. Then there was "Rep," who leaked vital aircraft production figures from the Republican Aircraft Company in Farmingdale. And "Officer," who was supposed to have been a high level military officer traveling between New York and Washington. None of these people existed. They were all completely fabricated. But when the agents were transmitting information to the Nazis, they would say something like, "Wash said this," or "Nevy said this," and then they would tailor that information to whatever background these people were supposed to have. But it's also interesting to realize that some of the information they were sending was actually true - that's how you can really fool your enemy. You don't just feed them absolute fabrication, you put in nuggets of truth. For example, Moscara was able to send information to the Nazis letting them know that a senior British officer would be replaced in the coming weeks. And he was, so that was true information. And so, the enemy, in this case, the Nazis, start to believe you more and more. And so other information that's being fed to them, they are less likely to doubt.

Devin: So we know the operations at Wading River ended in 1945. We believe August of that year is when things finally wound down. But that was not the end of the story. Because shortly after the FBI left, there was actually a scene filmed on the back porch of the Owen house, and it was featured in the movie that came out later that year, called The House on 92nd Street - which was not about the Wading River Radio Station. It was a fictionalized account of the Seybold case. And the funny part about it is it was a film that was done in partnership with the FBI. So J. Edgar Hoover, the legendary head of the FBI, was in the film, as were several agents. So this film was kind of real, and it brings the question up of, did people really know what was going on there?

Matt: You can look at articles that were published in the 1940s. Some of this came out, not specifically what the work they were doing - that came only recently - but people in the area knew something was going on. We hear stories about neighbors hearing that there's some covert operation going on at Owen place, and showing up in cars with shotguns because they thought they were Germans who landed in a U-boat or something like that. Because that was the fear, that there would be all these German U-boats in the Long Island Sound because Groton, Connecticut, which is the base, is right across the Sound from us. But basically, they said, "No, it's an FBI operation. Go away." And it's a small town, so they all dispersed. But we do have a sense that people in the neighborhood work quietly said to go away.

Ray: I always wrack my brain as to how I came across it. It was serendipity a little bit. I had read The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes. And coincidental to that, I obtained through the Freedom of Information Act the file on ND 98, it was called the Rudolph case. They have all kinds of different code names. So I had the file, and I was going through the Moscara file, and all of a sudden I turn the page: whoa, here it says Wading River in New York. And here is the debriefing of Moscara, talking about the atomic bomb. I was stunned. I had never heard of that at all.

The first thing I did was I called the Wading River historian, and he said, "I'm familiar with the house, but I've never heard about this!" You know, the anniversary of the Normandy invasion was coming up. And I had a very enlightened president of the Society of former Special Agents of the FBI - they pulled out all the stops. And that's what put it on the map. That's how Newsday got involved, that's how the media got involved. So I'm very proud of [it], and I'm very pleased that we were able to [put it on the map]. Now the William Pomeroy Foundation put up a plaque identifying it, it's now on the National Register of Historic Places. So it's great. It really really is another piece of information about Long Island history that we're aware of.

Devin: It was essentially hidden for almost 70 years. It wasn't until the 70th anniversary of D-Day in 2014 that a public announcement was made, and there was a local press event held by Dr. Batvinis and other FBI agents to announce the fact that Wading River Radio Station took place at the Owen house. And today, Camp DeWolfe, under the leadership of Reverend Matthew Tees, has really embraced their history and their connection to this period of time.

Lauren: I think there's still new information that is being uncovered. It's only been a few years that this information has started to come about, and as we know, as historians, the more you talk about a subject like this, the more people start to come out of the woodwork and say, "Well, I had a piece of this history," or, "My family member talked about their involvement in this process." This information, it has been declassified by the FBI, so there's no chance that people will get in trouble having documents about this. So history is a changing story. It's a book that we don't know the ending to, and you never know when you're going to find the next big story, because things get buried for a long time.

Devin: It's absolutely true. You never really know what's going on the house down the street.

Marker of Focus: Anti-Rent Convention, Berne, Albany County

Guests: Dr. Charles McCurdy, author of Anti-Rent Era in New York Law and Politics, 1839-1865; and Sandra Kisselback, town of Berne historian

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King, with help from intern Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

This episode contains music created by Sean Riley. It also features the following pieces from the 2015 Old Songs production "Down with the Rent," including "The Farmer is the Man" (written by Knowles Shaw, 1834-1878; sung by Terry Leonino and Greg Artzner and company) and "We Will Be Free" (text by S.H. Foster; tune "The Boatman's Dance" sung by Terry Leonino and Greg Artzner and company).

Further Reading: 

Charles McCurdy, Anti-Rent Era in New York Law and Politics, 1839-1865 

Dorothy Kubik, A Free Soil- A Free People: The Anti-Rent War in Delaware County, New York 

Albert Champlin Mayham, The Anti-Rent War on Blenheim Hill: An Episode of the 40’s 

Teaching Resources:  

Consider the Source New York, Anti-Rent Senate Documents 

New York State Archives, Primary Source Inquiries, Anti-Rent Wars 

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On today's episode, we're focusing on a historic marker located at 1728 Helderberg Trail in the town of Berne, which is located in Albany County. The marker stands in front of the Helderberg Evangelical Lutheran Church, and the text reads: “Anti-rent convention held here, January 15, 1845. Delegates from 11 counties petitioned state to end unjust land lease system. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2016.”

The church that the sign sits in front of is now called the Helderberg Evangelical Lutheran Church, but back in the late 1700s, it was referred to as St. Paul's Lutheran Church, and it played a really important role in the anti-rent movement. Before we start speaking specifically about why this anti-rent convention was important, let's give a little refresher about landownership in parts of New York's Hudson Valley, and explain why there was an anti-rent movement in the first place.

First, we have to remember that in the early 1600s, it was the Dutch government that controlled the area that we now call the Hudson Valley. Beginning in 1629, the Dutch issued the Charter of Freedoms and Exemptions, which allowed for investors in the Dutch West India Company to be granted large swaths of land – we’re talking hundreds of thousands of acres. And they were referred to as patroons.

Charles: Once upon a time, the land was all owned by a handful of big shots. And the big shots would convey a piece of the land to tenants.

Devin: I spoke with Dr. Charles W. McCurdy, author of The Anti-Rent Era in New York Law and Politics, 1839-1865.

Charles: Tenants, they would hold “of the landlord.” In other words, they didn't own what we would today called a fee simple title, the way we own our suburban homes, for example, and farms. They would hold of the landlords, so the true owner would be the landlord, not the tenant. This went on in perpetuity. So, if you were the son of a tenant, you would inherit the same land on the same terms as your father had. And this would go on for generations, potentially.

Lauren: They could sell the land. They could also pass it down to their heirs, so that the land would always remain within the family. However, they never owned it. They always had to pay a yearly rent, and that rent was usually paid in crops or in fowl, livestock. And the patroons had an overwhelming amount of power. It wasn't just that they were huge landowners, but they also had the ability to create their own court system, which meant that they didn't have to follow the same justice system as the rest of the government. They really had a feudal land system where they were the complete power over any of their tenants.

Devin: So the patroon system starts as a Dutch creation. But in 1664, we know that England takes over the colony, and they continue this system as a manor system. They're still sometimes called patroonships, even after the British take over. The largest and most successful patroonship was established by diamond and pearl merchant Kiliaen Van Rensselaer in 1630, and he called it Rensselaerswyck.

Charles: The manner of Rensselaerswyck occupied, except the northern townships in Rensselaer County, the whole county – all the way to the Massachusetts line from the Hudson River. And the same estate extended through all of Albany County except a little chunk called Coeymans. That's 48 miles from the western boundary of Albany County, to the Massachusetts line. That's 48 miles, and it was 48 miles up and down the Hudson River. Well over a million acres.

Devin: Rensselaerswyck was passed down from generation to generation in the Van Rensselaer family – always the men of course, the dominant heirs – until the early 19th Century, when Steven Van Rensselaer III inherited the patroonship. And he had a different way of dealing with the tenant system.

Charles: Van Rensselaer was a man known for great benevolence. He founded what's now RPI, built all the Dutch Reformed churches in the whole valley. He was on the Board of Regents for the state university. He was the chair of the Erie Canal board. I mean, his benevolence and stature as a good guy was legendary.

He said, “You can't get land on better terms anywhere in the United States as you can in Albany and Rensselaer counties, my land. Because if you enter the land, I'll give you a lease that will last forever, you will acquire an inheritable piece of land. You won’t pay any rent at all for the first seven years. And in return for that, I'm going to want my annual rents payable in wheat after seven years in perpetuity. Plus, if you sell the land, you owe me one quarter of the purchase price.” Well, in Rensselaer and Albany Counties, the population grew fivefold from the 1780s to 1820. So a lot of families took up this land.

Now this could have gone on for a long time. But in 1819, there was a financial panic, and there was an ensuing depression. Meanwhile, there's new settlements in the west, in Ohio country, and the Erie Canal was completed. And farmers are starting to have lower yields, because of the hessian fly and other problems that farmers everywhere had. But their yields were going down, and meanwhile, their rents were going up. Because the price of grain soared beginning in 1824. And by 1836, the price of grain was 10 times what it was in 1786. So basically, the terms had changed, hadn’t they? What looked like a good deal in 1786 now, suddenly, looks like a very bad deal – at the very time when your own yields of grain are going down. You can't go borrow money to save your farm to pay the rents. No mortgage company is going to loan you money if the first person on a foreclosure sale is going to be the landlord, who's going to get at least one quarter, right? All right, so a rock and a hard place. And then in 1839, Steven Van Rensselaer III dies.

Rents hadn't been collected since 1819. The tenants all thought, “Well, he's just gonna waive the rents, maybe even convey the land to us in his will.” No, he had debts himself. And the first job of his two sons was to collect and pay off those debts.

Lauren: Steven Van Rensselaer III hadn't collected rent in 20 years – and he was a wealthy man, but he was also a spending man. So the debts were high, and really, Steven Van Rensselaer IV needed to collect all of the rents, including back rents for the last 20 years, in order to pay off his father's debts. So now we're in a situation where there are thousands and thousands of tenants who haven't paid rent in 20 years, wheat prices are not the same as they were, and the lands are not as productive as they had been in the past. And as you can imagine, the tenants were not thrilled about this change in policy.

Charles: They held a meeting. And on the Fourth of July, they declared their independence from the so-called “Patroon of the manor of Rensselaerswyck.”

Devin: So what does a patroon do at this point? Well, they involve law enforcement.

Charles: The indentures through which the families entered the land in the first place provided that if rent was unpaid for 30 days, all the landlord had to do was to show up with the sheriff and grab anything he saw, and sell it to pay the rent. That’s a good way to make sure that the rents are paid, if the landlord can just show up and take tools or growing crops or chattels, and sell them to anybody. And then the second way is just to eject, just to evict – put all the farm implements and stuff in the road, toss them off the land, and then you can lease it forever to somebody else.

Devin: They start sending the sheriffs and law enforcement of the era into these communities to break up these organizations and organized meetings that are taking place among the tenants, and that does not go over well with the tenant farmers.

Lauren: And we have to remember that the side of the law is on the side of the patroonship, because these tenants have signed leases which state that they will pay a yearly rent forever in perpetuity.

Devin: So the attempts to coerce don't go over too well, as I noted. Many of the law enforcement officials and sheriffs are actually run out of these small towns and communities after being tarred and feathered.

Charles: They threatened county officials, all of whom are elected, that if they show up trying to distrain (that's the process of just grabbing any chattel and selling it) or eject a family, they're gonna go home in a wagon. We're going to tar and feather the customs informers. We're going to tar and feather sheriffs who tried to collect money from us on behalf of the pretended patroon of Rensselaerswyck.

Now, we’ve got politics deeply involved. If the county officials won't do their job – and they didn't want to after several attempts. The third attempt, they raised a local militia company in the city of Albany and marched out toward a little town called Reedsville. It's about 20 miles to the west up in the Helderberg hills, and they met a screaming mob of thousands. So, if the sheriffs can't enforce the law, they asked the governor.

There are about as many Democrats as Whigs in Albany County in 1839. The governor and his friend Thurlow Weed are very good at counting votes. So, it begins. Governor William Seward, later famous as secretary of state under Lincoln. He promises land reform, because the leases enforced on the manor of Rensselaerwyck are “anti-republican and oppressive.” That’s strong language in 1830: “anti-republican and oppressive.” And he calls for their abolition.

Devin: So, the anti-rent movement becomes kind of a political hot potato, as both the major political parties at the time – the Democrats and the Whigs in New York – tried to co-opt the movement and use it for their own political gains. And because it's so large and encompasses so many voters, it really does have a political effect. Both the Democrats and the Whigs kind of take turns siding with the anti-rent tenant farmers and saying that they're going to affect change through the legislative process or through other legal processes, but they're never really able to do that.

Lauren: So Devin, we're talking in particular about the manor of Rensselaerswyck, but there were others, say, Livingston Manor. What happened? Why is it that these manors live on in the Hudson Valley, and we don't hear so much about the other lower counties?

Devin: I think that's really interesting, because we're talking about a feudal system that even in Great Britain hadn't been used since like the 12th Century – but it was still in use even after the American Revolution, right? We're talking about the early 19th Century, when Steven Van Rensselaer III dies in 1839. That's decades after the American Revolution, where we're supposed to have freedom and equality and all of these things. So why does the patroon system continue on after the American Revolution? It's really because those who sided on the side of the American cause, or the Patriot cause during the Revolution, were allowed to keep their patroonship intact. Those who are loyalists and stayed loyal to the king? They lost everything. So that's really how it continues on.

Lauren: In the early 1840s, one of the tactics that the tenants used was to disguise themselves as Indians – they called themselves the Calico Indians, which is a made-up name – but they would disguise themselves in robes and sheepshead masks to hide their identity. And the lore is that tenants who needed help when the sheriff or deputies were coming to their farms, they would blow on a tin horn, that sound would alert the Calico Indians to then come to their defense, and they would drive off the authorities.

Charles: The whole function is to make sure that nobody gets thrown off the land. That's in Anti-Renters Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1839. Everybody pledges each unto the other that they will prevent the ejectment of themselves or their neighbors. People live that and it becomes the most important thing in their lives for a long time.

Now, the rents still aren't collected. The politicians haven't been able to figure how to abolish this extraordinary form of land tenure. And the landlords are getting impatient. So, they advance in 1844, on a couple of fronts in Albany and Rensselaer Counties, and it becomes clear to the leaders of the anti-rent movement that the best thing for them to do is to expand the number of families who are involved. So, they organize an anti-rent movement in Greene County, and they create a band of Indians to tar and feather the sheriff in Greene. And then the guys who were trained in Greene marched over into Delaware County, where there are thousands of people – not to the Van Rensselaers, these are mostly Livingston leases. And then finally the most famous anti-renter of them all, “Big Thunder” – Smith Bouton, who was a country doctor in Rensselaer County – he leads a band of Braves into Columbia County. Now, the anti-rent movement isn't just two counties. It's a big regional movement. It has substantial political power. And then there's violence.

Lauren: Before it gets better, it starts to get worse. There are more episodes of violence, and people are killed. A young boy is killed by a stray shot at one of these clashes. And then a deputy sheriff is also killed trying to collect rent.

Devin: In very early January of 1845, the governor at the time, Governor Bouck, actually called up a militia to disband the Calico Indians, and about 300 militiamen arrived in the town of Hudson from New York City and Albany to crush the Indian rebellion. And several dozen of the Calico Indians were actually arrested and charged with inciting a riot.

Lauren: And so this prompts the legal system and the political system to try to find a way to ease these tensions, because the movement is growing and growing. In fact, in 1845, which is when the anti-rent convention happens that is referred to in the historic marker, there are representatives from 11 different counties that are joining this movement. They pack in 150 delegates to the church in the town of Berne to talk about how they can use their numbers in a political way to effect change.

To learn more about the local legacy of the anti-renters and the convention of 1845, we spoke with Town of Berne Historian Sandra Kisselback.

Sandra: From what I understand, there was people who came to the town from 11 different counties. Of course, the place was overflowing.

Lauren: Do you know what the reaction of the community was? Were the majority of people in Berne members of the anti-rent party, or was there opposition there? Do you know what the feelings of the surrounding community were?

Sandra: Yes, I think they were definitely supportive of it.

We have a museum. It's on the second floor of an old hotel that people rented out when they were passing through town. There's about eight rooms of history, and they have one huge sign that I know of. That's the poster that was calling people to rise to the revolution. “Take up the ball of the revolution,” I think it says – that's the first thing you see when you walk up the stairs. And then one thing they did, which was phenomenal, in 1975 they had the man who wrote Tin Horns and Calico, which is quite an in-depth telling of the anti-rent wars, they asked him if they could reprint that book. And he gave them permission. So they did that for the bicentennial. And that really brought more attention to the anti-rent wars.

Lauren: So the history of the anti-rent wars are pretty well known in your community?

Sandra: With the older people, I think. And then there's one teacher who makes the kids aware. The school allowed the children to walk to the museum, which wasn't that far away. We still have a lot of interest in the town, and I think we'll get it back going again.

Charles: In the New York State Legislature in 1860, the last remnant of the anti-rent movement still has a legislative agenda. And that agenda is worked into a statute, the Anti-Rent Act of 1860, which the New York Supreme Court declares unconstitutional in 1863. But that ruling came down just as all the troops in New York were either putting down the draft riot in Manhattan or out on the front in Virginia. So there's not an armed body of men that can go and clean out the last of the anti-renters in Albany County until the grand review of troops in the aftermath of Appomattox in 1865. Almost immediately after Appomattox, they marched into Albany County. They go to a guy named Ball’s house – he had taken a case all the way to New York Court of Appeals, and Ball had had already been ejected in 1860. They put all his furniture and stuff out in the road, and when the retinue went back to Albany, they just moved everything back in. [But now the troops are back to move them out for good]

The Albany County artillery actually marches out with a cannon and lots of weapons. There's a lot of Civil War talk, because this is like “Putting down the rebels, buddy.” “Let's proceed with the work of confiscation,” says the Albany Evening Journal. “We've confiscated their slaves and let's confiscate these rebels’ lands which they have unfairly held without paying rent, in defiance of New York law,” sometimes since 1820. There was no longer a way forward to abolish or even mitigate the effects of the lease and fee, and so the only solution was state violence – just as the only solution to the secession crisis was state violence. There are massive ejectments. A lot of families however, bargained with the then owner – no longer Van Rensselaer, but an investor. They pay the back rents, pay interest on the back rents, and they keep their land, but they're still holding in perpetuity, according to New York law.

Devin: So what happened with this whole movement? Did they actually accomplish anything? Well, we know the patroon system doesn't exist anymore. But it wasn't really a legislative or even congressional or constitutional amendment that ended things. And I would like to quote from Charles W. McCurdy, his book, in what he suggests happened at the end. He writes, “At the end of the era, the lease and fee no longer presented a problem to be solved. It served instead as a symbol of the self-defeating posturing by landlords and tenants alike. Both spurned compromise, both posed as noble victims deprived of their rights, and both blamed their unhappy fate on the corrosive interaction between law and politics. In 1865, nobody else cared.”

He's really suggesting that after the Civil War, the issue just kind of disappears because people don't care about it, and there are other bigger problems to consider in the nation. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a legacy. We're talking about it today, books are being written, articles are being written, historic markers are being put up. So, we know that it does have a resonance in this part of North America, this part of the United States. And we do know that it's historically significant, because it was a major movement – it’s still considered to be the largest tenant movement in the nation's history. I think for that alone, it really is something we should be talking about and learning about. It's a very complex situation. There’s very complex legal definitions that are being used. But it's important for us to acknowledge that this was a system that was archaic, even during that time, it was archaic. And it was something that, you know, those who were tenant farmers really felt strongly about, that they were being taken advantage of. And so did the landlords who thought, “Wait a second, you haven't paid rent in 20 years! And you signed this contract, and you're supposed to pay us this rent, and all we're doing is asking you to fulfill your contract.” So again, they're being portraying themselves as victims, the tenant farmers are portraying themselves as victims, and an uprise against these, you know, landed gentry and the wealthy elite. And meanwhile, neither side is willing to compromise. And then you have the political side of things, where both political parties are trying to use the issue for their own political means. So they're not necessarily interested in compromise, either. And as a result, unfortunately, you have violence, you have people actually losing their lives – not in great numbers, but any number is unfortunate. And I think for those reasons, it's an interesting aspect of a very uniquely New York story.

Lauren: And it's a story that doesn't end with this, right? We still have tensions between landlords and tenants, not in the manor system, but certainly in situations where people are renting housing. We see this continue. We have a complicated relationship, not only with land, but with housing. And that continues right into the 21st Century. We still have protests going on, and we still have a situation where landlords and tenants are not willing to compromise with each other – and so the fight goes on.

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King, with help from intern Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Marker of Focus: Rural Cemetery, Oswego, Oswego County

Guests: Dr. Theresa Kaminski, author of Dr. Mary Walker’s Civil War; and George DeMass, Oswego Town Historian

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King, with help from intern Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading:

Theresa Kaminski, Dr. Mary Walker’s Civil War: One Woman’s Journey to the Medal of Honor and the Fight for Women’s Rights

Sara Latta, I Could Not Do Otherwise: The Remarkable Life of Dr. Mary Edwards Walker

Thavolia Glymph, The Women’s Fight: The Civil War’s Battles for Home, Freedom, and Nation

Hillary Rodham Clinton and Chelsea Clinton, The Book of Gutsy Women

Teaching Resources:

Association of the U.S. Army, Medal of Honor Mary Walker

Junior Scholastic, Mary Walker’s War

Keith Negley, Mary Wears What She Wants

Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE) Credit: The New York State Museum is an approved provider of Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE). Educators can earn CTLE credit (.5 hours) by listening to this episode and completing this survey. Please allow up to two weeks to receive confirmation of completion.

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On today's episode, we're exploring the backstory of a marker located in the town of Oswego in western New York, on the shores of Lake Ontario, which is adjacent to the City of Oswego. The marker is located in the Oswego Town Rural Cemetery on Cemetery Road, and the text reads: “Rural Cemetery. Begun circa 1820. Medal of Honor recipients, Dr. Mary Walker, first female recipient, and James H. Lee, interred at this site. William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2014."

So, this Rural Cemetery actually has two Medal of Honor recipients buried within its grounds. For this episode, we're going to focus on the story of Dr. Mary Walker, the only female recipient of the Medal of Honor to this day. However, we wanted to take a moment here to acknowledge the other Medal of Honor recipient, James H. Lee, who also has a pretty fascinating story. The battle in which he served so bravely happened not on American soil, but in the waters off the coast of France, known as the Battle of Cherbourg. James H. Lee was a naval seaman during the Civil War, and served on the USS Kearsarge, a union sloop of war. The Kearsarge had been tracking down the Confederate raider, the CSS Alabama, and finally caught up with the raiding ship while it was in Cherbourg, France for repairs. Once out of the territorial waters of France, the Kearsarge and the Alabama engaged in a battle ending with a Union victory and the sinking of the Alabama. It was during this battle that seaman James H. Lee earned the Medal of Honor for “acting as sponger of the number one gun during this bitter engagement. Lee exhibited marked coolness and good conduct and was highly recommended for his gallantry under fire by the divisional officer.”

Now onto the other Medal of Honor recipient in the cemetery, Dr. Mary Walker, who also earned her medal for service during the Civil War. But before we get there, let's take a look at her early life growing up in the town of Oswego.

Mary Walker was born in 1832 on her family's farm. Her parents, Alvah and Vesta, were progressive thinkers and instilled these views into their many children. Alvah Walker built the first school in this area, which actually reminds me of our last episode about the Mossell family in Lockport, where the parents' emphasis on providing quality education influenced the next generation heavily, and led to those children growing up to advocate for many different types of social justice. The farm where Mary was born was located on a hill that Alvah named "Bunker Hill." Alvah was originally from the Boston area, and he named his farm after Bunker Hill because he hoped it would be a hill where battles would be fought — battles of social justice.

To find out more about Mary Walker's early life, and her parents' influence on her beliefs, I spoke with Town of Oswego Historian George Demass.

George: They had a farm. She had four sisters and a brother, and they all worked on the farm. Because of her father, who was a great abolitionist, Mary Walker in those early years knew Garrett Smith. He came, I think, to the farm to lecture one time. And of course, she knew Frederick Douglass. Her father was a great impetus in her life as far as reform [goes], including dress reform. So even as a young school girl, she started to wear trousers, because she worked in the fields and so forth with her other sisters. She taught for a couple of years in a school in Minetto, New York, which is not far away [from here], and then she went to the Syracuse Medical College.

I tell everybody about a children's book that was written maybe three or four years ago, by Keith Negley. The title is Mary Wears What She Wants, and the last line of the book is beautiful because it says it all: “And it never was the same again.”

Devin: When Mary graduated from Syracuse Medical College in 1855 — with honors by the way — she was only the second woman in United States history to graduate with a medical degree, with the first being Elizabeth Blackwell from Geneva, New York.

Lauren: In 1856, Dr. Mary Walker married Dr. Albert Miller, and they each opened their own medical practice in Rome, New York.

George: They were not married very long. She did not wear a typical bridal gown of that day, and she kept her own name, which was very unusual at that time. And they didn't live together very long, but she didn't get her divorce finalized until 1869, after the war.

Devin: Again, it's clear that Mary Walker was a strong nonconformist for her era. She was a suffragist. She was a believer in the equality of the genders. She was known for wearing an outfit that consisted essentially of pants underneath a skirt, which was later known as the “bloomer costume,” which several suffragists would go on to wear — but none as long as Mary Walker, who for the rest of her life, would wear some version of the bloomer costume, or just pants themselves. In fact, Mary was arrested several times throughout her life for wearing pants, which was actually illegal in some municipalities around the country. She never really did any jail time for it, but it was, again, a symbol of her nonconformity. 

One of the other progressive movements of the 19th Century that Mary Walker was heavily involved in was the abolition movement. Growing up in the north, and in the burned-over district of upstate New York, she became very aware of the abolition movement and attended many speeches, including those given by Frederick Douglass, among others. When the Civil War broke out in 1861, Mary went immediately to Washington, D.C. to offer her services as a surgeon to the United States Army.

Theresa: She presents herself to the Secretary of War, and she says, "I'm ready for service." She wants a commission. She considered herself every bit as qualified as any male doctor. And I think she already started getting this idea that her position as a doctor would help her to gather information for the northern forces.

Devin: Our producer, Jesse King spoke with Dr. Theresa Kaminski, author of Dr. Mary Walker's Civil War.

Theresa: I'm not sure that she would have thought of this as directly spying, or more like intelligence gathering. But she certainly knew, for example, about Allan Pinkerton, and his security detail for President Lincoln in 1861. By the time she arrived in Washington, the big story about Rose Greenhow — the woman who was actually spying for the Confederacy — she heard this story, too. And she understood that oftentimes women go into places where men don't think that they're paying attention to what's going on. She started thinking about this, and as early as 1862, she was writing to various officials offering her services as somebody who could spy or gather intelligence as she was out working in her medical capacity as a physician. I think it's linked back to her belief in women's rights and women's equality, and that they should be allowed to do what they're capable of doing, and not be barred from it just because they're women.

Jesse: Were her efforts accepted? When she was sending these letters out to people, were they listening to them? Or were they just like, “Meh, this is…”

Theresa: Yeah, I mean, many of her requests were consistently denied. I mean, she goes and she appears before the Secretary of War, asks for a commission, and he says the U.S. Army does not commission women. He, of course, did not share her beliefs in gender equality. And the only thing she could do after that was she ends up volunteering her services to the United States Army, and so from 1861 until 1864, she is working as an unpaid physician, and she essentially starts following different armies and, you know, she's just there serving as a doctor. And I think, as she moves along, during these years, the officers who see her in action are usually pretty impressed. She is constantly, though, trying to get a commission. She never gives up. She's always asking for this. She wants to be an official part of the Army. And she doesn't get this until 1864, and even then it's not a commission. She gets hired on an official contract as a — I think her official title was "assistant surgeon," which meant that she was a physician. And it's largely due to the efforts of one general who was very impressed by the work he saw her doing in a military hospital in Chattanooga, and he was willing to actually go against to an Army board of medical doctors who had examined Mary Walker for her medical knowledge, and said, "She isn't fit to be a physician, so she shouldn't be even doing anything for the United States Army." And General Thomas just totally ignored that advice, and gave her this contract. And off she went to northern Georgia.

Lauren: And so under this contract, she's sent to Georgia to assist in caring for the soldiers, but also, she is being sent out to care for civilians in the countryside. And it's during this time that she is encouraged by her superiors to essentially keep her eyes and ears open for any kind of intelligence that would be able to help the Union army. And it's during one of these missions that she's actually captured by Confederate forces, who were suspicious about what she was doing so far away from the battlefields. They capture her, and she becomes a prisoner of war for several months at a place called Castle Thunder in Virginia.

Theresa: It was not great. The food wasn't great, the conditions weren’t great — but she was not tortured. She was not directly physically abused. In some ways, she was kind of a celebrity prisoner; she was still wearing trousers, and so she was sort of famous or infamous as “the lady doctor who wore trousers.” She was maybe treated a little bit better because there were lots of eyes on her, but she did suffer enough depravations in those short months that her health was compromised. Her eyesight suffered, for some reason, there was some medical condition, and for the rest of her life, she had problems with her eyesight. And there was enough that happened to her there that she did get a pension after the war. It was a fairly modest one, but she was entitled to a pension because of what happened to her as a POW. And the reason she was let out was a prisoner exchange: the Confederacy was willing to swap for some of their army medical officers. So she was very happy to be let go when the time came.

Lauren: Even after this, she still wasn't able to get a commission. In lieu of this, for recognition of what she had done during the war, President Johnson awards her the Medal of Honor.

Theresa: And at the time, the criteria for the medal was very different than it is now. But by the standard of the time, she met the criteria. So this wasn't, this wasn't anything that was fudged just to make her fit into it. She was awarded the medal by President Johnson in November of 1865. I think there was some sort of congressional ceremonial approval in early 1866. So sometimes you'll see those two different dates attached to the medal. And she remains today, the only woman to ever have received the Medal of Honor. 

She had it revoked in 1917. And this was not anything that was targeted at her individually — this was part of an entire review of all Medal of Honor winners. Mary Walker was one of over 900 to have their medals rescinded, and I think this was kind of in preparation [of World War I]. 1917, this is the year the United States joins the First World War. The War Department knows now that there will be more medals that will have to be given, so the Army tells her that her medal has been rescinded. And she, of course, accepts none of this. She says, you know, she was given the award by President Johnson, and as far as she's concerned, he would be the only person who could take it away from her. So she never considered that it was rescinded. And she always wore that medal for the rest of her life.

Lauren: 60 years later, in 1977, the Medal of Honor was posthumously reinstated to Dr. Mary Walker through the efforts of her family. And it was actually given to her by President Jimmy Carter.

Devin: So it's clear with her service in the Civil War and as a surgeon before the Civil War, that Mary Walker was someone that had the courage of her convictions, for sure. This would actually cause a rift between her and several other prominent suffragists in the period following the Civil War. Now, as we noted, Mary was famous for being a Medal of Honor winner. She used her fame to go on speaking tours and attend suffrage gatherings, and was very much a prominent suffragist during this period. But she held some non-conformist views even among suffragists, including her adherence to wearing pants, or bloomers, which was something that the other suffragists had tried and turned away from, because they felt it was too much of a distraction. They were being ridiculed for wearing pants, and they really thought that that was a distraction from their important work of getting women the right to vote. And this included Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, the two most prominent suffragists of the time.

Mary Walker was also an adherent to a philosophy within the suffrage movement called "The New Departure," which basically said that the U.S. Constitution already grants adult women the right to vote, and that all Congress needed to do was an act enabling legislation to allow it. Now this was a departure from Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who were working towards a constitutional amendment that would allow women to vote.

Lauren: And it's not as though other people in the movement didn't try this. They certainly did. I'm sure we can all recall that Susan B. Anthony attempted to vote and was arrested for it. Also, the Supreme Court ruled in the 1870s that this was not the case, that the Constitution itself did not allow for adult women to have the right to vote. So after that point, Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and the main part of the women's suffrage movement moved away from [the new departure] because of the Supreme Court ruling. And so this is where the big split happens.

Theresa: Most of it, I think, comes down to Mary Walker's basic personality, which was very forceful. She totally said: "Here's an instance where the Supreme Court is wrong. Okay, they've made a decision, but it's the wrong decision." And she continued to lecture and write about this, that women still, absolutely, have the right to vote; states had to just enable that legislation and just make it possible for women to vote.

Another thing that set her apart was her very outspoken views about divorce. Which, again, many suffrage activists, including Elizabeth Cady Stanton, supported liberalizing divorce laws that would help women who had gotten stuck in abusive marriages. So it's not that suffragists didn't believe in that, but Mary Walker was apparently very public and very blunt about her own divorce.

You know, she had been wearing trousers since she was a young woman. And this, to her, was the visual expression of her belief about women's equality that women should be able to wear whatever they wanted. And in her case, this meant trousers. And going along with her belief in equality, was the belief that women should be able to choose what they want to do with their lives. But they're just tired of listening to her. And she refuses to be silenced. So it does lead to this, in such a break, that if you were to read the official multi-volume history of the women's suffrage movement, she was very consciously written out of it. She does appear mostly as lauding her work in the Civil War, but her beliefs about suffrage, all of that is just totally left out because Stanton and Anthony didn't want her credited with her views.

Lauren: The idea of her persistence, across her life, you know, you can see it. She would not give back the medal, she would not give up the bloomer, she would not be quiet about her vocal discussion of divorce laws, and then she would not agree with the decision of the Supreme Court. So there's a theme throughout her life that she is persistent in her beliefs, and she will not let anyone else deter her from what she believes. 

Later in her life, Mary Walker continued to lecture about equality for women, and write books about it. But she really had to cobble together a living because, due to her being a prisoner of war and her disability with her eyesight, she was no longer able to practice as a surgeon — and she did receive a pension from the government because of that disability, but it wasn't enough to live on. So she continued to lecture across the United States and she was able to earn a living, but she had a fall one time when she was visiting Washington D.C., and she was sent back to her hometown of Oswego, where she eventually died in 1919. 

Even in her hometown, the views about Dr. Mary Walker and her progressive ideas were mixed. There were some people who really felt that she was a visionary, and there were some people who disagreed with her ideas. Even so, she was famous at the time. And people in her hometown knew right away that it was important to collect many of the objects and her writings and photographs. And so that's part of the reason that the local town and county museums have so many of her items now on display, and for people to research.

George Demass also tells us how Mary Walker is being honored today.

George: The forts that are named after Confederate people — and not all were generals, in fact, a couple were not even in the Confederate Army — they are being renamed. There was a congressional renaming committee, and Fort A.P. Hill, which is about 40 miles north of Richmond, Virginia — it's really a training fort — and it's going to be renamed Fort Mary Walker. And this is the first fort that has been named after a woman. And then there was a press release from the U.S. Treasury and the U.S. Mint that Mary Walker will be one of the five women in 2024 to be on the quarter. This is a program, I think it's a five year program. I think it was started in 2021, where there are five women a year that will be on the quarter.

I was contacted for the Fort as well as the quarter, because I was the town historian, to find the nearest living relative of Mary Walker. They want to pass these things by the family. Mary Walker's nearest relatives really would be in Washington state now — the great, great, great nieces and nephews. But what has really amazed me is the depth that they take to make sure everything is accurate. You know, I was asked, “Do you have any idea what hairstyle she had during the war?” Of course, we have pictures. And “What was the medical kit like?” Well, we have a couple of those. It wasn't a regular doctor's bag, but really a woman's clutch purse that she carried. So, it's been really humbling and an honor to work with the Mint on the design of the quarter.

I want to highlight — at the time she died in 1919, Mary Walker was great friends with another doctor in Chicago, a younger doctor, Dr. Betha Van Hoosen. After Mary Walker died, Dr. Van Hoosen wrote these words about her, and I think it's very appropriate. She said, "Dr. Mary's life should stand out to remind us that when people do not think as we do, do not dress as we do, and do not live as we do, that they are more than likely to be a half a century ahead of their time. And that we should have for them not ridicule, but reverence."

And of course, she had a lot of ridicule. Growing up, I heard good stories, and I heard bad stories. They said she was loud, but she had to be loud. She was a woman, and in those days, women weren't heard. And again, her ideas were so far ahead of the time. Her second book, written in 1878, is called Unmasked, or The Science of Immorality. There she deals with spousal abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse. She has diagrams of the male and female sexual organs, and in 1878 that was quite a step in the future there. And she couldn't find a printer. So it's interesting to see the people here now in the town of Oswego looking back on those days. And I tell some of my contemporaries, I say, "Well, if Mary Walker was still around today, many people still wouldn't be agreeing with her." Because, let's just say, she was a visionary.

She sat in every president's office from [Abraham] Lincoln through Woodrow Wilson. She befriended Queen Lili'uokalani, the last queen of Hawaii, and testified before the Senate that they should not annex Hawaii. So she stood up for that. A very, very colorful person, she was, and she just dreamed of justice for everybody.

Devin: I think Mary Walker lives what anyone would consider to be an extremely interesting and important life. I mean, she was a surgeon, when women were not surgeons, essentially. She was a war surgeon when women were not surgeons. She was a spy. And she went on to become a prominent suffragist, only to fall out with Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton and essentially be written out of their history of the suffrage movement. And of course, she's to this day, the only woman to have ever won the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Lauren: Yes, Dr. Mary Walker really leaves behind a legacy of being a visionary and of persistence. We see a common thread throughout her life, that despite people telling her, "This is something you can't wear, or you can't be, or you can't interpret," she continues to hold on to her convictions, and she does make a difference. And we can attest to that today, with having a fort named after her, being chosen to be on a coin. And her story still persists, people know who she is. And through things like historical markers funded by the William G Pomeroy Foundation, and these other accolades that she is receiving (there's also a wonderful statue of her in Oswego), we can continue to talk about the importance of education when you're young, the importance of having ideals and sticking to those ideals — even when people tell you you can't.

A New York Minute In History is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King, with help from intern Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Guests: Melissa Dunlap, executive director of the Niagara County History Center, and Heidi Ziemer, outreach and digital equity coordinator for the Western New York Library Resources Council

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King, with help from intern Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Further Reading:

Diane Ravitch, The Great Schools Wars: A History of the New York City Public Schools

David G Garcia, Strategies of Segregation: Race, Residence and the Struggle for Educational Equality

Laverne Bell-Tolliver, The First Twenty-Five: An Oral History of the Desegregation of Little Rock's Public Junior High Schools

Michelle A. Purdy, Transforming the Elite: Black Students and the Desegregation of Private Schools

Teaching Resources:

New York Historical Society: Black Citizenship in the Age of Jim Crow

New York State Museum: Educator’s Guide to Dr. King’s 1962 Speech

PBS Learning Media: Civil Rights from Orlando to New York

New York State Archives, Consider the Source New York: Civil Rights: The Hillburn Petition

Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE) Credit: The New York State Museum is an approved provider of Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE). Educators can earn CTLE credit (.5 hours) by listening to this episode and completing this survey. Please allow up to two weeks to receive confirmation of completion.

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York State historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. We're celebrating Black History Month by focusing on a little-known story coming to us from Western New York. This blue and yellow historical marker is located in the city of Lockport, in Niagara County, and it's placed along the Erie Canal within the Josephine Carveth Packet Park. The title of the marker is “Aaron Mossell,” and the text reads: “Aaron Mossell and his son Charles were local residents who advanced the struggle to integrate Lockport schools open to all regardless of race by 1876, William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2018.” 

Now, the location of the marker is not directly related to Aaron Mossell or his family. But the site was chosen because of the visibility it offers. The marker’s on the site of a public park in an area that gets a lot of foot traffic, and therefore reaches a wider audience due to this placement. Hopefully, people visiting the park will see the marker and want to learn more about Aaron Mossell and wonder why they haven't heard that name before. So Devin, who was Aaron Mossell, and maybe before we get there, how do we pronounce the name?

Devin: Well, that's a great question. And I think our two guests, Heidi and Melissa, have told us that in Lockport it's actually pronounced as mo-ZELL, while the family pronounces it MOSS-uhl. So we've chosen to go by the family, and call the family the Mossell family.

Lauren: And this isn't uncommon, right? I mean, we know lots of times when there are family names that are pronounced different ways depending on where you're from. So, we're choosing to pronounce the name Mossell as the family does.

Melissa: I'm Melissa Dunlap and I have been with the Niagara County Historical Society almost a full 33 years; 29 of them as the executive director.

Heidi: My name is Heidi Ziemer. I am the Outreach and Digital Equity Coordinator for the Western New York Library Resources Council. In my job, I work with our libraries and archives with their special collections, and one of the things I tried to do is connect educators with primary source materials from these collections. And I had a group of teachers I was working with the year that I went to Melissa and was asking for information I think I started out asking for information about the Erie Canal — and she mentioned about the Mossell family, and I became hooked.

Melissa: Aaron Mossell, he built the commercial hotel in Lockport and we actually have the arch that went over the doorway that has his name.

Devin: And Nathan was Aaron Sr. and Eliza’s son?

Melissa: Yes, one of them.

Devin: And they also had Aaron Jr. and Charles.

Heidi: There are articles about Aaron Jr's early law career, and the fact that he was defending people very successfully. And their sister Mary, married a professor from New Jersey, I think?

Melissa: And then the granddaughter - Aaron's daughter, Sadie Tanner Mossell Alexander - she was the first woman in the country to get a PhD in economics. And then you go down to the great grandchildren, Dr. Rae Alexander-Minter, she was vice president of Manhattan College. Her first cousin, he was the head of Cardiology at Yale Medical School.

Devin: What a… Has anyone ever written a book about this family?

Melissa: I would hope somebody would! 

Heidi: We have actually been trying to figure out a way that we could get a project. 

Melissa: A cousin of Dr. Rae Alexander-Minter is Ossawa [Tanner] 

Heidi: The artist.

Melissa: And he actually wasn't an expatriate. He went to France to live because he was not happy with how Blacks were being treated in our country. One of his works of art was the first art from a black artist that was installed in the White House during the Clinton Administration.

Devin: Aaron Mossell Sr. was the scion of a very prominent African American family. But they didn't start that way. He was born in Baltimore, Maryland, in the mid 19th century, during a time when the vast majority of African Americans were enslaved. But he wasn't. And why was that? Well, it was because his grandfather, who was enslaved, purchased his own freedom and the freedom of the rest of his family from his enslavers. So, he was a free black living in Baltimore. He was a brickmaker. So, that's who he was. He married Eliza, and they moved their early family - they had their first two children in Baltimore - and they moved their family to Canada. And why was that? Well, because of the 1850 Fugitive Slave Act, which caused a lot of consternation among free Blacks everywhere, but certainly in a place like Baltimore that was part of the South. Enslavers were going to come and take them into bondage, whether they were free or not. 

Lauren: One of the other reasons that the Mossell family moved to Canada was that Aaron Mossell placed a heavy importance on education for his children, and he felt that the education provided to them in Canada would be much better than what was available in Baltimore at the time.

Devin: So he moved his family - This is the mid 19th century, around the time of the Civil War - and his family lived there for a period of time, and we're not really sure what happened, but there was some sort of situation with a land deal that went wrong.

Heidi: Entailment, I think it was? Entailment laws, yes. The British entitlement laws. A woman claimed back the property that Aaron had been living on.

Melissa: She certainly gained, because it was an unimproved property when he bought it, and he built the structures: the house, the barn, and then all of the contents also became hers, any contents in the house.

Devin: Unfortunately, the Mossell family was forced to give that up, and they ended up moving to Lockport.

Melissa: The only thing he had was a horse that he had sent to the Blacksmith to be shoed. He sold the horse and that's how they wound up in Lockport, New York. From there, he was able to buy a brickyard that belonged to Mr. Trowbridge. And he eventually worked up to almost fifty workers, and had a really prominent business. But he also was an extremely well-educated, thought-out person and he was an activist. The two AME churches that were in Lockport had split, and he made the concerted effort to get them to compromise and join as one congregation again. He also was a philanthropist because he donated bricks, Southern Hamilton, Ontario. He donated the bricks when the AME Church was rebuilt in Lockport. But we're not sure if he donated the bricks for the High Street School or if he gave them a really good discount. But he had those bricks.

Heidi: One of the things that we find in searching New York State Historic Newspapers is that Aaron senior served as a juror in the municipal court system. He participated in the county fairs and won some recognition for his cornice work. You know, they were a part of life; he was very respected. The family was very much respected in the community.

Devin: So we know obviously, there's an African American community in Lockport that they were able to tap into. Do you know, generally, how large that population would have been in the 1870s? Was it a very large part of Lockport or are we talking very small?

Melissa: It was small, I mean, currently, it's 9 percent of the population. And I think at that time, it was probably between… probably about 12-14 percent. 

Devin: Okay.

Melissa: But because Lockport was a Quaker community, during the Fugitive Slave law, twice they tried to capture freedmen in Lockport. And Lyman Spalding, who was a prominent businessman, he got the canal workers to come and rescue the man that they were trying to take. And that happened on two occasions in Lockport. So the community was very supportive.

Devin: We mentioned that Aaron Mossell and Eliza were very interested in educating their children, and we'll talk more about that later. But one of the things they quickly came up against was the fact that the Lockport schools were segregated, meaning there was a school for white children and there was a school for black children. Now, I think it's important for us to realize here in New York State, that school segregation was not just a southern phenomenon, nor was it something that suddenly went away. It's like slavery itself in New York. Many New Yorkers don't realize that colonial New York - from 1626, throughout the American Revolution, until the formation of the state and up to 1827 - was a slave state. Not only a slave state, but the largest slave state north of the Mason-Dixon Line. So, I think school segregation and desegregation is something that many New Yorkers don't realize is a New York story and a northeastern story. 

In the case of the Mossell family in Lockport, Aaron and Eliza quickly realized that not only were the schools segregated, but the black school had less resources given to it. The teachers sometimes were not the better teachers, they were maybe new teachers, the resources for equipment and supplies and the buildings themselves were not the same standard that white students were given. 

Heidi: In New York State 1873, The New York State Civil Rights Act of 1875, you had the Federal Civil Rights Act passed. And I think those two were the catalysts for people recognizing the opportunity to try to integrate the schools. Because it was around that time when Aaron Sr. and his son Charles both made the effort to have the Lockport schools integrated by closing the black school.

Melissa: Actually, they started in 1871. 

Heidi: Right.

Melissa: The first time, they petitioned. 

Heidi: Right.

Melissa: and December of 1872, the colored school was supposed to be discontinued at the close of the term. Then on December 30, they rescinded that, and decided no that wasn't going to be, so they started a boycott.

Heidi: In the Lockport Daily Journal in January of 1873, Aaron Mossell writes to the editors, and he says “SIRS: The colored people of the city had their hearts gladdened by reading in the papers, a short time since, that their children were about to be admitted in the District and Union schools of this city. But their joy was soon turned into sorrow, for your issue of the 30th of December contained information that the Board of Education, which had passed a resolution to discontinue the colored school and throw open the common schools to the colored children, had on 27th of December rescinded the resolution.” And then he goes on to say that a meeting was held at the South St. Zion Church. And it was organized by electing Aaron Mossell president and James Nichols secretary. So they organized, and then they resolved - they have a resolution in there - that they're basically going to boycott. The children will not go to that school, but that they will go to the respective white schools. And that if they were not going to be admitted, he does say, “That if our children are then refused admission to such schools, that in view of the fact that the colored people pay part of the taxes supporting the said district schools, that then in case of such refusal, such steps be taken at law as will secure to the colored people their rights in the premises.” So they're threatening legal action, if the boycott is not successful.

Devin: You know, this economic starving by boycotting the schools, that’s actually a fascinating mode of civil disobedience. You know, instead of protesting and marching with signs, just stop sending your kids and it will become an economic burden to the point where they shut it down. That's brilliant. Do we know if any of the black students were admitted to the white schools?

Melissa: Okay, we know that Nathan attended, because in his diary, he tells how the teachers completely ignored him in the classroom. He was a non-entity as far as they were concerned. So, that's a first-person account that he was not treated well by the teachers in the school. And he did attend the High Street School which was right across from his home. And also his younger sister, Alvarilla. They went through all of 1873 going to the board meetings, there were articles written in the newspapers, by March 20th 1873 was “Colored Schools Reported Abolished in Albany.” Then in 1873, there was the mention of the South Street School, which is where the school was located, and there's still one of the walls extant, the late colored school so we know that it was after 1873, probably around 1876 that it actually was passed that the schools would be integrated in Lockport. And by 1877, the building was sold.

Lauren: So in looking at a broader context in New York State, trying to figure out exactly when schools officially were desegregated is a little bit convoluted, but I think we have to start back in the beginning with the 14th Amendment. According to historian David McBride, the 14th Amendment was: “aimed at extending full citizenship status and legal protection to newly emancipated Blacks by prohibiting states from depriving persons of due process and equal protection.” And shortly after this, in 1873, New York State was one of the first states to enact their own civil rights law. And this was happening at the same time that Aaron Mossell was in the middle of his fight to integrate Lockport schools.

Devin: The New York State Civil Rights Law established that no state citizen “on the basis of race, color, or previous condition of servitude was to be excluded from the equal enjoyment of accommodations or facilities provided by: innkeepers, common carriers, theaters, or common schools and public educational institutions.” So why didn't it work?

Lauren: While the Civil Rights Law of 1873 attempted to integrate all schools in New York state, there was a mixed reaction to this law. In some places, immediately school boards responded to this, notably: Albany, Newburgh, Geneva, Schenectady, and Troy  allowed Blacks to attend public schools and closed down schools that were specific to black children. But there were others, notably larger cities like Brooklyn and Buffalo, that did not integrate their schools. 

Part of the reason that this only worked in some areas was that there was an argument that local law preceded state law. And so if there were local laws enacted by the Board of Education or local municipalities, that those laws took precedence over this larger state civil rights law. And there were lots of court cases fought over this to try to integrate schools; a few of them successful, many of them not successful. And so we have a situation where segregated schools continue in New York state into in some cases, the 20th century.

Devin: There's another important reason why the civil rights law of 1873 had limited impact. And that's the Supreme Court case known as Plessy v. Ferguson, which happened in 1896. And really declared the “separate but equal” mandate, and basically said that states cannot force institutions or private entities to treat African Americans and whites similarly, that they were two separate entities. And as long as there was, for example, a black school and a white school, that was fine, as long as the black school was on par with the white school. And as we'll see, that wasn't necessarily true at all times, either. So you had Plessy v. Ferguson in 1896, which really weakened the Civil Rights Law of 1873. And gave local municipalities and local school boards the ability to say “we are providing a black school. So therefore, we are adhering to the Supreme Court's Case.”

Lauren: It really wasn't until 1954, with the court case Brown v. Board of Education, where the Supreme Court declared that “separate but equal” was not constitutional. And that was the official legal end of segregated schools in the United States.

Devin: And part of this is the reason why segregation of schools beyond legal segregation continues to this day in New York State. I'll note a 2021 article from the Albany Times Union with the headline that says: “Nearly 70 years after Brown decision, New York schools still separate and unequal.” A lot of this article is based on a UCLA report that came out in 2014 that suggests that New York schools - to this day - are the most segregated in the United States for African American students, and the second most segregated for Latino students, only to California. 

So why, after all of these decades after Brown v. Board, are New York schools still heavily segregated? Even though not legally so, but they remain heavily segregated. And that's for a variety of very complex reasons. Certainly, racism is a big part of it. But also socioeconomic reasons. Redlining, which really barred, essentially, African Americans from settling in certain communities and only allowed them to buy houses or rent apartments in certain parts of cities or certain parts of counties. All of this played into why the schools remain segregated. But it's also because of the distribution of resources. What we've seen over the decades is that the schools that are predominantly white in New York State, the per-student resources are much higher than predominantly minority schools. The state did attempt to rectify this situation in 2006, with the establishment of School Formula Aid, which was a formula that was supposed to balance socioeconomic backgrounds so that schools located in poorer parts of the state received more funding from the state than schools in wealthier communities. This has been problematic for a large reason because the state essentially withheld billions of dollars in Formula Aid during the recession of 2008 and 2009. Governor Hochul has declared that she will be distributing that funding - over $4 billion dollars - to school districts around the state. So hopefully that makes a difference. 

An example of how segregation has worked in the 20th century in New York, is really the formation of predominantly white suburbs around the urban centers, including New York City with Westchester County and Long Island. Long Island is known as the birth of American suburbia, with Levittown and the establishment of the suburbs there, which were again, predominantly white. Again, there was redlining that did not allow African Americans to buy houses in these places. And as a result, you have white communities, and you have communities of color. 

Devin: So Nathan became a physician,

Melissa: Yes. 

Devin: Aaron, Jr. became an attorney, correct? 

Melissa: Correct. 

Devin: Charles was a Reverend.

Melisa: Also Charles was a missionary to Haiti. And then he authored the book on…

Heidi: Louie Toussaint L’Ouverture [sic], the leader of the Haitian Revolution. He wrote a book about his life. 

Melissa It's still the definitive book. 

Devin: So it's certainly a legacy of success.

Heidi: I mean, their achievements were pretty phenomenal. But the challenges and struggles were also as phenomenal.

Melissa: And it continues. I mean, their level of education and achievement continues, generations later.

Lauren: Aaron's children create a legacy for the Mossell family that is truly amazing for any family. His son, Nathan, went on to become the first African American doctor to graduate from the University of Pennsylvania; he continued on to create the first African American hospital in that city to treat specifically African American patients. [Aaron’s] son, Aaron Jr. went on to become the first African American attorney to graduate from the University of Pennsylvania. And it even extends down beyond that generation.

Devin: Aaron Jr's daughter, Sadie Tanner Mossell Alexander, became the first woman to receive a PhD in Economics. She then went back to school and passed the bar and became a civil rights attorney who would go on to serve on three presidential commissions. There is an elementary school now named after her in Philadelphia.

Melissa: The Pomeroy Marker was part of a much larger project. We were trying to get the North Park School renamed because Aaron Mossell, his brickyard was actually on the property. It was the only elementary school in Lockport that wasn't named for a person. It was just named for the location. And we thought that this was the perfect… we just thought it would be so easy! It was a no brainer! But no. There was some dissension in the community.

Heidi: I think an important thing is that I'm sure that a lot of those board members at the time probably didn't even know who Aaron Mossell was.

Melissa: What we wanted to do was bring attention to not only integration, but also the entrepreneurship of the family. So the marker was part of it. There's now going to be a park, the Aaron Mossell Park, and we were also going to do a trail because he donated so many bricks for different buildings, all the way up into Hamilton, Ontario. That was why we started this whole project and why we got the marker.

Lauren: While Aaron Mossell’s name was very prominent while he was alive. It seems that the city, as often happens, has forgotten his name. In 2011, the idea of renaming the North Park School came about to honor Aaron Mossell. This was a long-duration effort by members of the community to recognize Aaron Mossell’s commitment to education, and to bring his name back to prominence by having his story more broadly known, especially by schoolchildren in Lockport. As part of this effort, Melissa applied for this William G. Pomeroy-funded marker to help bring awareness to the Mossell’s story. And that's part of the reason they chose to put this in a public place where there would be more foot traffic and the name would earn more recognition. And not unlike Aaron Mossell’s story, they were also successful after a decade of fighting to get the school renamed The Aaron Mossell Junior High School.

Melissa: Now, instead of just saying the location name of the school now we're telling the story of the person.

Lauren: Bringing these lesser known stories to light within communities is one of the most important things that public historians do. We all have stories like this within our communities. And it is the job of municipal historians and historical societies to find these stories and bring them back to the surface.

Devin: The story of Aaron Mossell Sr and his family and the integration of the Lockport schools is again an important story in and of itself. They were ahead of their time, they used civil disobedience in a way that was successful, that engaged the rest of the community, they were able to access the white school for their children. And as we've spoken about, this has led to a long legacy of educational achievement. It was really the result of this struggle, where Aaron Mossell said: "My children deserve the same opportunity for education that anybody else's do."

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King, with help from intern Elizabeth Urbanczyk. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Guests: Daniel Mackay, deputy commissioner for historic preservation at the New York State Office of Parks, Recreation, and Historic Preservation

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Further Reading:

American Association for State and Local History, The Field Guide for the Semiquincentennial: Making History at 250(2021)

Michael D. Hattem, Past and Prologue: Politics and Memory in the American Revolution (2020)

Alan Taylor, American Revolutions: A Continental History, 1750-1804 (2016)

Rachel Herrmann, No Useless Mouth: Waging War and Fighting Hunger in the American Revolution (2019)

Teaching Resources:

Consider the Source, New York Learning Activities

Fort Ticonderoga, Lesson Plans

American Revolution Museum, Teacher Resource Guides

PBS, Revolution and the New Nation Teacher Resources

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. This month, instead of focusing on an individual marker, we're going to talk about two different marker programs offered by the William G. Pomeroy Foundation that focus on the upcoming 250th anniversary of the American Revolution. The dates of the Revolution are generally understood to be 1775-1783, which recognizes [the battles of] Lexington and Concord as the start of the American Revolution, and the signing of the Treaty of Paris as the end of the war. Certainly, there are other important events that actually happened before 1775 that are worth commemorating. We're only about a year away from the 250th anniversary of the Boston Tea Party. But as far as the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution, those dates are 2025-2033.

Devin: It's coming soon, and these types of projects take a lot of planning. At the state level, we've been in conversations about the 250th, as we call it, since 2018, when we had meetings with some of our sister agencies. I work for the New York State Museum, so there were representatives from the state libraries, state archives, state parks, the “I Love New York” campaign, and some of our federal historic sites, including the Saratoga Battlefield. And we were discussing what can we learn from things like the Bicentennial – what was successful, what wasn't successful? The first thing that we came to the conclusion of is that we're looking at a commemoration as opposed to a celebration. Commemorations are, I think, more balanced. They look at the success of the American Revolution, as well as the kind of incomplete factors that are in play – who the Revolution was and wasn't for. The other thing that we quickly realized, was that we really needed to be looking at the Revolution as kind of the beginning point for the discussion of the “unfinished revolution,” and attempts that have been made, throughout New York and U.S. history, to be more inclusive, to include groups who were not part of the original Revolution. These groups included women, who couldn't vote at the time, but New York state played an immense role in the suffrage movement, obviously 1848 and Seneca Falls being a big part of that. That's another revolution. So, we at the state level are thinking of the sites of the Revolution that include the battles and the sites directly influencing the era of 1775-1783. But we're also looking at these sites of revolution that kind of spiraled out from those ideals of liberty and equality, such as the suffrage movement; the Underground Railroad, which New York plays a large role in; the abolition movement; the LGBTQ movement, with places like Stonewall in New York City. So, it's an ongoing kind of conversation, and it's a way of looking at history in a way that is comprehensive, and includes new audiences – and I think people who, in the past, just didn't see themselves in things like the Bicentennial.

Lauren: Not everyone has a battlefield in their backyard or a historic structure that was directly associated with the Revolution. So, some historians, or historical societies in the state, might be looking for guidance on how they can be a part of the commemorations coming up for the 250th. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the upcoming field guide?

Devin: Yeah, great. Thank you. That's a project that I've been working on with you, Lauren, and your role as a board member of the Association of Public Historians of New York State, as we call APHNYS. And, of course, we just recently issued a podcast from the APHNYS conference. But yeah, the field guide is really an opportunity for us, the Office of State History at the museum, and the Association of Public Historians to come together and create a document that hopefully will be a useful tool for local government historians, give them some ideas and some themes that they can look at and think about [for programming]. We didn't reinvent the wheel, we took some of the idea from the American Association for State and Local History, which created a national field guide called “Making History at 250: The Field Guide for the Semi-Quincentennial,” which is the big word for the 250th. They published their field guide in 2021. It's available on their website, and we'll link to it and our webpage. But we really looked at that and tried to tailor it to New York state.

So, we came up with essentially six themes, and these are very broad. One of our themes is “indigenous history is New York's history.” And this is a very true statement. We can't talk about colonial era New York or the American Revolution without talking about the indigenous nations, and the Haudenosaunee and Algonquin peoples that lived here. You know, thinking about those relationships and the kind of alliances that developed throughout the colonial era. Then, obviously, during the American Revolution, there were some indigenous nations and tribes that were allied with the Patriots, or the Americans. And there were others that remained allied with the British. And what did that mean? How did that play out for them? Were they displaced? Were they forced off their lands? Undoubtably, the answer would be yes, at some level, although there are nations that are still present here. So, the story isn't one of complete disaster. It's also one of resiliency, of continuing on despite this placement, and despite history of broken treaties, and so on. So that's one of our themes, and it doesn't matter where you are in the state of New York, you should be thinking about this theme.

Another theme that we decided to highlight is called “choose your side.” Many historians consider the American Revolution to be the country's first true Civil War, especially in New York state. This was true in what is now central New York, and western New York was essentially the frontier of that era, and it was a place of conflict. It was a place where loyalists, who remained loyal to the British Crown, fought with their neighbors, who were patriotic and wanted to break away from the crown. It's a place where, again, indigenous tribes formed alliances, so it was a place of conflict for the indigenous people as well. “Choose your side” really investigates ways that everyday people would have made these decisions. What would make someone become a loyalist, as opposed to a revolutionary? Why were those choices made? What effects did the war itself and the Revolution have on everyday life? For families, for merchants, for farmers? These are things that sometimes we don't think about, that there was a home front, and there was also a line of conflict.

“Power of place.” How have political boundaries and even geographic boundaries – the natural world, how has that changed over time? And how did that influence the American Revolution and the following revolutions? We know that New York was a battleground of the American Revolution because of its natural geographic features, like the Hudson River, Lake Champlain, the connection to Canada, the connection to New England, and the port city of New York at the time. [They were] all major military targets. These are questions that allow municipal historians and historic sites to think about their own geography and their own political boundary: Did their town exist? When was it formed? Why was it formed? What was happening in the community during this era? And how has the idea of community changed over time?

Lauren: The next theme is “We the People,” which is the opening words of the preamble of the Constitution, of course. While this document was authored by members of the white male political elite, the ideals of the Revolution were not exclusive to them. The events of the Revolution significantly impacted the lives of women, indigenous people, enslaved Africans, free African Americans, and others. This helps to start a discussion about who was left out of the founding vision. And some of the questions that might be raised when you're trying to plan or create programming around this are, “How did New York's diverse population experience and influence the events in the American Revolution? When and how did different groups of people gain the status of citizenship? Who is a citizen? And what rights and responsibilities does that include?”

The theme of the “unfinished revolution” is important, because it continues to tell the story of our country over the last 250 years, and what is important to us, in the ways that we have changed and tried to live up to the ideals of the American Revolution over time. Devin, you mentioned before, the struggle for women getting the right to vote, the civil rights struggle for indigenous peoples’ equality. So some of the questions that might help with this type of programming are, “What has the response been to these revolutionary movements within your community? How have the nation and state’s founding documents been used in the ongoing struggles?” For example, in 1848, at Seneca Falls, the Declaration of Sentiments was the document that Elizabeth Cady Stanton authored. And that is directly tied to the Declaration of Independence. She uses much of the same language, but points out that women were left out of that document. And the Declaration of Sentiments looks to be more inclusive, and goes so far as boldly asking for the right to vote in 1848. So, these are all good ideas to continue this conversation, and realize that our journey as a country and as a state doesn't end in 1783 with a peace treaty.

The final theme is “changing interpretations of the Revolution.” We, as historians, know that interpretations of our past change constantly as more information comes to light, as different perspectives are considered. These things change constantly. Benedict Arnold is a great example. When Arnold was fighting during the battles of Saratoga, he was considered the hero of Saratoga: he fought valiantly, he led the troops, he was much revered. And of course, that changed very abruptly when he became a traitor, and left to fight with the British Army after giving up the plans for West Point. When I was in school, the only thing I knew about Benedict Arnold was that he was a traitor. But now there is certainly more information and research that's been done to talk about the positive things that he did, that helped the Patriot cause and the Revolution before he became a traitor, and that also points to some of those reasons why he chose to become a traitor. So, there's always more to the story. And this idea of changing interpretations is definitely something that you can connect to the beliefs of your own community, and how the interpretation of the Revolution has changed over time.

Lauren: Devin, you mentioned the state commission, and I thought I would talk a little bit about what Saratoga County is doing to prepare for the upcoming commemoration. And certainly, there are different ways to go about forming your own commissions, and there are some commissions that are already up and running. I know Westchester [County], they actually have a nonprofit that they have set up, which is one way of doing it. Orange County has a commission set up through the government, which is how Saratoga County has chosen to begin. In 2021, the Saratoga County Board of Supervisors passed a resolution creating a 13-member commission. And we have several different stakeholders in the community that are represented on that commission, including members of the DAR and SAR, which is, of course, the Daughters of the American Revolution and Sons of the American Revolution. We have local historians represented on the commission, historical societies, we have a K-12 educator on the commission, we have a liaison between our living historian reenactor groups in our area, and we also have a liaison with the National Park Service, because, of course, we are lucky enough to have the Saratoga National Historical Park, otherwise known as the Saratoga Battlefield, right in our backyard.

So, this commission started meeting at the beginning of 2022. We have three goals that we have defined, the first of which is to promote education. And part of that is meeting students where they are, and that's with technology. We've got some grants to look at how we can tell our stories and tell new stories through the use of technology. The second goal is to increase heritage tourism. This goes beyond the battlefield itself – Saratoga Battlefield is a wonderful resource, it's a great place to come and visit, and the rangers offer great programming, but there are also other places that are lesser-known that also deserve recognition. And as long as they're coming to Saratoga to come to the National Park Service, we can help our community by getting the heritage tourists to stay in local hotels, eat at local dining places, so that we are also experiencing an economic benefit. This will help when you as a local historian or historical society are trying to get funding from local sources, such as a local government. If you can really point to the success of heritage tourism during these commemorations, it will help to get funding for some of the programming and events that you're trying to plan. The last goal we have is to improve infrastructure surrounding our historic sites. I think it's important to talk to the younger generation about why they can go and visit these sites – because the people who came before them cared about historic preservation. And I think it also helps students and young people take ownership of what happened in their backyard and to feel a connection. There's nothing like putting your feet on the ground where history happened. And knowing that this is within a stone's throw of where they go to school, or where you live – that’s really important. And it helps them take ownership and also care about historic preservation for the future.

So, we've already started programming. We've done living history programming, we did a siege in combat as part of Path Through History weekend, the fall Path Through History weekend, which is a New York state program. We've been working with teachers to try to help get them the tools that they need to relay that information in the classroom. And we're working on some more programming coming up in 2023.

Devin: You're really taking the lead, Lauren, and I congratulate you and Saratoga County. You're ahead of New York state. I love the three goals you have. They're also the goals, I think, that all of us are going to have. I've been speaking with our tourism entities and partners here in the state about the potential that this commemoration has to bring visitors to the state from other places, but also to have visitors who are residents of the state. Sometimes New York has taken a backseat to places like Massachusetts, because of Lexington and Concord, or Virginia in some cases, but it's inarguable that New York played as significant a role, if not more than anywhere else in North America, during the American Revolution – with the Battle of Saratoga, with the struggle for New York City and Long Island, and the Hudson Valley being such a strategic initiative of the British. So that's a big initiative of ours, is making sure that we reposition New York where it should be.

I must be clear, as well, that I am not the only one at the state level who was working on this. The commission is co-chaired by my boss, the commissioner of the state Education Department, as well as the commissioner of the Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation. So, State Parks, as they're known, is our overseer of our state historic sites. And I spoke with Deputy Commissioner for Historic Preservation Daniel McKay about their plans for the 250th.

Daniel: State Parks is responsible for over 250 parks, recreation areas and historic sites across the state. We are the largest state park system in the country. 44 of those state parks or historic sites have a primary context with the Revolutionary War: Schuyler mansion; home of General Philip Schuyler in Albany; to Newtown Battlefield site outside of Elmira; Fort Ontario and Fort Niagara on the Great Lakes. You know, we have sites really across the full sweep of the state. And while there will be many assets that New York state can deploy to tell the story and link these stories together, the New York state park system is where you can experience the topography, you know, the view that troops faced during the battle at Stony Point, or the lands for the Livingston family, you know, their estate down in Germantown, and the library John Jay was pulling from to inform the Federalist Papers. I'm very pleased that the bulk of physical sites are not owned by the National Park Service in New York state. They're actually owned by state parks. All of those sites together, I think, work to tell a very effective story, and one that really no other state can replicate.

Devin: That’s a great point, we have a second-to-none park system, and you know better than anyone that, really, the historic preservation movement, in many ways, started in New York state with Washington's headquarters of being the first historic site that was purchased with state funding.

We've talked about past commemorations, mainly the Bicentennial. And although the Bicentennial kind of fell short in a lot of ways, it also was a time of great interest in American history, or reinterest in American history. For example, in New York State, we saw many local historical societies and county historical societies come online during the Bicentennial era. Going back further, to the 150th of the American Revolution, we saw many kinds of legacy projects, including the eventual transfer of Saratoga Battlefield to the National Park Service in the 1930s. We saw the historic marker program come online out of the state department, and many of these things that were directly linked to the state's commemoration of the 150th. So, if you're had an open checkbook, a genie’s lamp, and could have a wish come true, what would be a successful commemoration in your regard?

Daniel: Our partners, such as the National Park Service, have already begun subsidizing reinvestment in historic sites and state-owned historic sites with Revolutionary War themes. New York state just received, this summer, $500,000 for a project out of Fort Niagara, and that funding will be available for the next 10 years of the commemorative period. Additionally, the agency has been planning and assessing needs across the historic site system, needs in terms of interpretive opportunities and angles, even the need to create the infrastructure in the forms of computer kiosks that you'll see deployed across the park system, to direct people from one site in the story to the next. So, if you want to follow the Sullivan campaign across New York state, this interpretive kiosk will give you the ability to link federal, state and local assets that reflect on that campaign and its impacts – you’ll have that all in one system.

It's clear to me, as I plan for investments across the historic site system, that the Rev war sites in and of themselves have significant capital needs and capital opportunities. We have just taken Philips Manor Hall down in Yonkers through a $15 million restoration and exhibit transformation. That site, really, is perhaps the first one you might visit to understand the early wealth that was being established in the colonies. The interactions that were happening between increasingly rich white landowners and the Native American and enslaved African communities upon whom that whose backs that white wealth was created. So that type of transformative investment we would like to make in other locations. In some cases, how we can improve the opportunity of a site is to acquire additional land. It means planning for new visitor centers. It means planning new interpretation exhibit upgrades, that I think will not only tell a more expansive story, but tell it in a more engaging fashion. It means training our staff to expect and respond to a more diverse audience. We're investing in the tools that we hope will engage and not only get someone to visit for the very first time, but actually have them come back for a second, third time for a deeper, richer, more expansive experience.

Lauren: The William G. Pomeroy Foundation offers two different marker grant programs directly related to the Revolution. The first is called “Patriot Burials,” and this is in partnership with the Sons of the American Revolution. It offers an opportunity to apply for historic markers to be placed in locations where Revolutionary War Patriots are buried. The Patriot Burial marker grants are available to SAR chapters who have a signed agreement with the Pomeroy Foundation, and you can find a list of those on their website. We have several patriot burials that are unmarked across New York state, and this program will help bring to light, or give recognition to many of those patriots who have not been recognized in the past.

The second marker program was just launched at the end of October. This one is in partnership with the Daughters of the American Revolution, and it's called “Revolutionary America.” And these markers are made to commemorate points of interest significant to America during the period 1775-1783. And it's important to note that these markers are meant to commemorate places that don't already have a marker, so they would be possibly new research or places that haven't been recognized in the past. Although we're a couple years out, time is ticking. And we need to start doing the research on these markers now so that we have time to put them in place and they're up for the commemoration.

Devin: I think the 250th really presents the historical community, historians, and historic sites with a real opportunity to learn more about the history of our state and our country, how our government was formed, why it was formed, and the mechanisms in which change has taken place over time. I think that's a very important piece of the puzzle of our history and our shared history – that this is a system that can change over time, and it’s something that you know, has stood as a democracy for 250 years. And again, I think it's an opportunity to really help our historic sites and our museums and our local historians who have been functioning during an era of austerity for a variety of reasons, most recently, the pandemic. Visitorship certainly plummeted when the doors were shut, and you know, that has caused problems financially and with sustainability going forward. The commemoration is really a way to accentuate these resources, to help them and also preserve them for the future.

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Guests: Dr. Lisa Bratton, assistant professor of history at Tuskegee University; Dr. Thomas Campanella, historian of city planning and professor at Cornell University, author of Brooklyn: The Once and Future City

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Further Reading:

Charles E. Francis, Tuskegee Airmen, The Men Who Changed a Nation (2008)

J. Todd Moye, Freedom Flyers: The Tuskegee Airmen of World War II (2010)

J. Todd Moye, The Tuskegee Airmen Oral History Project and Oral History in the National Park Service, The Journal of American History (2002)

Daniel Haulman, The Tuskegee Airmen Chronology: A Detailed Timeline of the Red Tails and Other Black Pilots of World War II (2018)

Teaching Resources:

FDR National Library and Museum, Red Tailed Angels: The Story of the Tuskegee Airmen

National Parks Service, Tuskegee Airmen virtual exhibit

Sherri L Smith, Who Were the Tuskegee Airmen?

Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE) Credit: The New York State Museum is an approved provider of Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE). Educators can earn CTLE credit (.5 hours) by listening to this episode and completing this survey. Please allow up to two weeks to receive confirmation of completion.

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute In History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. This month, we celebrate Veterans Day and pause to express our gratitude to all those, past and present, who have served in the Armed Forces of the United States. And on behalf of A New York Minute In History, we want to thank all the veterans who have served our country.

On this episode, we are honored to focus on a marker commemorating a veteran of World War II. Located at 212 Cascadilla Street in the city of Ithaca, Tompkins County, it is titled “Tuskegee Airmen.” And the text reads: “Verdelle Louis Payne, born here October 1, 1919, pilot and flight officer with the Tuskegee Airmen, U.S. Army Air Forces, World War II. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2021.”

So we're going to talk a little bit about who Verdelle Payne was, and this important accomplishment in his life. As the marker says, Verdelle was born October 1, 1919 in Ithaca. And actually, another famous person was also born at this address: best-selling author Alex Haley, who wrote the book Roots was born in the same house as Payne only two years after. Verdelle received his student pilot license at the Ithaca airport around the age of 18, which would have been uncommon for a young Black man in the late 1930s. I spoke with Dr. Thomas Campanella, a professor at Cornell University, and the applicant for Verdelle Payne's William G. Pomeroy marker.

Thomas: I've always been very interested in aviation, and I am actually a licensed pilot myself. And when I was writing my most recent book about Brooklyn — it's titled Brooklyn: The Once and Future City — I have a whole chapter about Floyd Bennett Field in southern Brooklyn, which was the first municipal airport in New York City. I was looking at African American pilots in New York state, and I came across this name, Verdelle Louis Payne in Ithaca, New York. And that, of course, led me down another rabbit hole where I started researching Payne. And that's how, basically, I came to discover that he was really one of the first African Americans to get a pilot's license in New York state. I don't know if he was the first, but he was among the first group.

I will say, it's not an enormously rich background that we have about him. Exactly how Payne became interested in aviation, really, is not something I was able to determine.

Lauren: According to a newspaper article, while Verdelle was young, he met his future wife, Theodora Mitchell, of Mamaroneck, New York, while she was in Ithaca going to school at Cornell, and he followed her back to her hometown. And then shortly after, in 1942, he enlisted in the United States Army. He left for training at the end of July, and by the end of the year, Verdelle was stationed in Bangor, Maine with an aviation squadron, which is where he and Theodora got married. Sometime between 1943 and 1945, Verdelle was transferred from the airfield in Maine, and took part in the Tuskegee Experience at the Tuskegee Institute in Alabama. In April of 1945, Verdelle graduated at the rank of flight officer, and he served as part of the 99th Fighter Squadron.

So let's talk a little bit about what the Tuskegee program was, how it got started, and maybe how someone like Verdelle would have ended up as a Tuskegee Airman.

Devin: I think these are great questions, Lauren. I think the first thing we have to realize is that the United States military, during this era, was completely segregated. Black soldiers and white soldiers were not thought of as having the same amount of ability. And that goes back to a report that was commissioned by the Defense Department in 1925, called "The Use of Negroes in War." And among many other racist things that this report projected, was that Black soldiers could not fly airplanes or be pilots in the military because they lacked, essentially, the mental acumen. Now Verdelle Payne himself was a civilian pilot. There were other Black civilian pilots during the 1930s. But the military was still segregated.

I spoke with Dr. Lisa Bratton, assistant professor of history at the Tuskegee University.

Lisa: From 2000 to 2005, I was a historian for the U.S. National Park Service Tuskegee Airmen Oral History Project, where I traveled around the country for five years, interviewing the Tuskegee Airmen.

The Army War College, which we kind of liken to the Pentagon — they basically stated that the Negro was a subspecies of the human family, does well following orders, but doesn't do well as leaders. [They were] cowardly in battle, etc. And so this is the environment that the Tuskegee Airmen came to be.

Devin: But this was World War II, there was a need for pilots. And I think the Army Air Force realized that they needed to recruit Black pilots. Why is it called the Tuskegee Experience? Well, that's because the Tuskegee Institute, which is now called Tuskegee University, which is a historically Black college in Alabama, was the first to be awarded the contract by the Defense Department to train Black pilots for this initiative.

Lisa: One reason was the weather. And the other reason was they felt that they could keep the pilots in check, because Tuskegee being in Alabama, had a strong environment of segregation.

The men came from everywhere — even Iowa, California, places in the 1940s where you might not think that African Americans lived. But the airmen who came from the north were dealing with a different type of racism. They talked a lot about traveling on the train, from north to south, because for many of them it’s their first time [going south]. Before they get to Washington, D.C., they can sit anywhere in the train they want. When they get to Washington, D.C., they had to move to a segregated car. And when they pulled up into a town to let people on and off the train, they had to close the curtains. And that was a painful, stressful time for them. Because we have to remember, too, that these were 19, 20, 21-year-olds. Very young. In the beginning of the airmen project, they all had to be college graduates. And after a while, when the war heated up a little bit more, the requirement was changed to two years of college for pilots.

It is said that to keep one pilot in the air, it really took 10 support personnel. So the Tuskegee Airmen, it wasn't just the pilots — there were ground support personnel, nurses, parachute packers, civilians, cooks. There were women as well. The women I interviewed primarily were the nurses, but there were also some wives who were there — not overseas, but on the various military bases with their husbands, providing support.

Devin: This began in 1941. They were in existence between 1941 and 1946. And during that time, they graduated 996 pilots. Cadets were initially trained to be combat pilots, but over time, there was also training for navigators and bomber pilots.

Lisa: The group that went overseas, their job was primarily to protect the bomber. A bomber has 10 men inside. They're big, they don't move very well. They're kind of gangly and slow. And so the fighter pilots surround that bomber, and try to fend off enemy warfare. And so the job of the Tuskegee Airmen was to protect the bombers.

Devin: The Tuskegee Airmen were required to undergo specific testing and training. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Lisa: In general, they took the same test because the tests were military tests. But there were several occasions where men told me that when they took the test, if they scored well — particularly if they scored higher than whites who were taking the test — they were forced to take the test again, because it was just assumed that they must have been cheating. So what happened? They took the test again, they got the same score. But the other part that made the Tuskegee Airmen stand out differently was that they had to stay overseas longer. Generally a military person was overseas for about six or seven months, maybe, and then they'd go home. That's what whites were able to do. But the Tuskegee Airmen, since they were dealing with a smaller population of African Americans, they had to wait much longer for their replacement. So they might have to stay overseas two or three years.

Lauren: After Verdelle’s graduation from Tuskegee, he was stationed at Walterboro, South Carolina. And although he served throughout the majority of World War II, he never saw overseas combat. As he related later in life, he got very, very lucky. He was sent orders to ship out, and though he wasn't told where he was going, he was guessing by the clothing list that they gave him that it was most likely that he was to be headed to the South Pacific. However, the night that his flight was supposed to leave, the Japanese surrendered to the Allied Forces, and the flight was canceled.

Devin: Despite the fact that Verdelle Payne himself did not serve overseas, the Tuskegee Airmen, who were at the time known as the Red Tails because they had distinguished red painted tails on their fighter aircraft, did serve in a very large capacity during the war. Estimates suggest that they flew 1,267 missions and 6,381 combat sorties with the 12th Air Force in Europe between 1943 and 1944, and also flew 311 missions and 9,152 combat sorties with the 15th Air Force between June 1944 and May 1945. The Tuskegee Airmen were known as one of the most successful escort units. Throughout the war, they had a very low percentage of their bombers actually lost, and as a result, they received a variety of citations and awards, including: three Presidential Unit Citations, the Legion of Merit for their Colonel Benjamin O. Davis Jr. — he also received the Silver Star. Members of the Tuskegee Airmen received 96 Distinguished Flying Crosses as a unit, eight Purple Hearts, 25 Bronze Stars and 1,031 Air Medals, which is amazing.

Lauren: I was lucky enough — early on in my role as Saratoga County Historian — I was lucky enough to be a part of honoring a Tuskegee Airman from Saratoga Springs, whose name was Clarence Dart. He was actually born in Elmira, but after the war, he moved and remained the rest of his life in Saratoga Springs. He was actually drafted in ‘42, and he became part of the 99th Fighter Squadron, which is part of the 332nd Fighter Group, the same group that Verdelle Payne would have been a part of. Clarence flew 95 missions as a Tuskegee Airman. He was actually shot down twice and survived. He was the recipient of two Purple Hearts, for injuries that he had sustained. He earned numerous other commendations and metals as well, including five Distinguished Flying Crosses, the Air Medal with four oak leaf clusters, the New York State Conspicuous Service Cross and the New York State Service Star. He remained active in the Saratoga Springs community. There are people who remember that he used to give neighborhood children rides in airplanes. He was on the Salvation Army board, he was part of the New York State Air Museum Aim High program. In 2011, Saratoga County honored him just before he passed away in 2012. And I was happy to be a part of that ceremony. He was an amazing man. And I'm glad that we get a chance to talk about yet another amazing story from the Tuskegee Experience.

Devin: Yes, New York had a variety of Tuskegee Airmen, including Lieutenant Colonel Harry T. Stewart, Jr. He's still alive, he's 98-years-old. He was originally born in Virginia, but moved to Queens when he was two-years-old. WAMC's Jim Levulis spoke with him in 2020.

Harry: I was living near LaGuardia Airport, in New York at the time. These aircrafts, fighter aircrafts are taking off. They were P-39 Airacobras, taking off from the LaGuardia Airport. There were 3 of them. They got into formation and they were flying very, very low over the city of New York there. And I was curious as to what was going on. But when I did get from Sunday school, I went upstairs, and of course, the news was on at the time that the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbor. I immediately felt that it wouldn't be long before I would be called into the service, because the draft had started. Even though I was only 16 or 17 at the time, it wouldn't be long before the draft would call me up.

Jim: And you were eventually drafted. Is that correct?

Harry: That's correct. 

Jim: As a fighter pilot, you flew 43 combat missions over Europe, and you were awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross. What went through your mind when you were in the air in those moments?

Harry: Well, it was a sort of a love of flying there. When I first went overseas, I was flying formation, and the first couple of missions that I had, I had no idea of what was going on except that I was keeping close to my leader at the time, there. But soon after I started getting acclimated to being up in the combat zone, flying in large formations with the other aircrafts, I got to really enjoy the idea of the panorama — of the scene I would see before me, with the hundreds of bombers and the hundreds of fighter planes up there, and all of them pulling their condensation trails. It was just a ballet in the sky, and a feeling of belonging to something that was really big. I must say that even though it was war time, I found it exciting and enjoyable.

Jim: During one of those missions, you've said that you were in the crosshairs of a German fighter. Do you recall having time to think in that moment, or did you just act?

Harry: I just acted. All my previous training came to fore, and my whole effort at the time was to get out of his crosshairs, because he had me dead to right. I went into a very, very steep dive, I guess what they call a split S, and was fairly close to the ground at the time, and I was making some very, very tight turns, trying to shake them off of my tail while I was down near the ground. And evidently, whether he was an inexperienced pilot or what, but he went into a high speed stall. In other words, he lost control, he crashed, and I did get credit for destroying his aircraft, even though he was on my tail there.

Jim: One of your fellow fighters, Walter Manning, was shot down over Austria. Can you share with us what happened to him?

Harry: Yes, Walter was shot down. And there were seven of us at the time, we were over in Austria. And we were on what was known as a fighter sweep, looking for targets of opportunity, and we ran into a horde of FW-190s. They were German fighter planes, and a big fight ensued, and three of us (of the five) were shot down. One made it back to Yugoslavia and was able to get back to friendly territory the same day. Another was killed instantly. He was shot down. And Walter Manning, I didn't know what happened to him at first. I know that he, he did bail out, but we didn't hear anything from him or about him until years later. And an investigation had taken place many, many years after he had gone down, and they found out that he landed safely in his parachute — but he was picked up by a mob that delivered him to the local jailhouse, waiting for the military to pick him up and take him to the prisoner of war camp. While he was waiting there, two nights later, another mob came and broke into the jail. [They] took Walter out and lynched him. They hung him from a lamppost.

He was not the only American, or I should say Allied airman, that was lynched in Austria. There were a number of them. But to get the crowd worked up, [according to] eyewitnesses that were there, they testified that the Nazi soldiers were working up the emotions of the Austrian people and telling them stories about racial epithets, about Walter Manning. And that he should be lynched. That's what they would do in his country. And that's exactly what the mob did.

Jim: World War II ends in 1945. You continued to serve in the Army Air Forces until 1950. Can you describe what you did after your service?

Harry: Well, yes. I got out of the service because of the large reduction in force. But when I got out of the service, I decided, let me see — even though I know there was prejudice and discrimination as far as employment in the airlines at the time, I had accumulated a large number of flying hours. [So] I applied for two airlines as a pilot and was rejected, summarily rejected. I decided that it didn't look like I would be able to get a job as a pilot in airlines, so I went and took a fallback position and decided to go to school and get my degree. I got a degree in mechanical engineering from New York University and stayed in the civilian field as an engineer.

I'm so happy to say that even though I was not able to realize my ambition as far as flying for the airlines was concerned, not many years after, I guess it was around 1970 (about 20 years after I had initially applied there), African Americans were being accepted as pilots in the airlines. And today, every major airline that we have in the country, we have airmen and airladies who are flying the aircraft.

Devin: When we think about the legacy of the Tuskegee Airmen, and the Tuskegee Experience, and all of those who served as part of this program, I think one of the most direct results can be the actual desegregation of the United States Armed Forces, which happened in 1948, shortly after the end of World War II. President Harry Truman enacted Executive Order 9981, which directed the equality of treatment and opportunity in all of the United States Armed Forces.

Lauren: While the order did end segregation in the military, many of the Black Americans who fought during World War II still had to fight for equality back at home. The major benefit to veterans after the war, known as the G.I. Bill, did not apply to the majority of Black Americans that fought in the Armed Forces. They were not eligible for many of the housing benefits due to redlining and racial covenants. Many of the universities were not open to Blacks, so they were blocked from using the education benefits as well. And it was still quite a struggle for them on a daily basis as far as earning equality and civil rights in their own country.

Devin: Now, despite the fact that the Tuskegee Airmen today are famous, and there have been films made about them, and many books written about them, it took several decades for them to receive the recognition that they currently have. In 1998, the Tuskegee Airmen National Historic Site was created at today's Tuskegee University. And in 2000, the National Park Service established an oral history program. This was something that Dr. Lisa Bratton worked on between 2002 and 2005, and the project was successful in interviewing over 800 Tuskegee program staff and pilots. In 2007, the Tuskegee Airmen were collectively, not individually, awarded the Congressional Gold Medal by President George W. Bush and the U.S. Congress.

Lauren: And of course, we're still trying to bring to light these many incredible stories, especially of New Yorkers who were part of the Tuskegee Experience. One way to do that is to erect these historic markers like the one for Verdelle Payne in Ithaca. After being discharged in 1946, Verdelle and his wife settled in Mamaroneck and raised four children. Verdelle had a number of different occupations, including an electrical inspector for a company that built fighter planes on Long Island, a television antenna installer, a mill hand for a window and door factory — and the one he liked the best, a custodian at Mamaroneck Avenue School. He worked there for 14 years until his death in 1985. Verdelle was buried at Calverton National Cemetery on Long Island.

Lisa: I still [think] back to the Army War College report that says that we couldn't do this, that we weren't smart enough to be successful — and the Tuskegee Airmen proved them wrong, in an environment where all of the cards were stacked against them. What will bring a Tuskegee Airman to tears is when they talk about how white German prisoners were able to use the officers’ clubs and all the amenities, and walk around the base with no restrictions — but African American officers were not able to use those facilities. And when they got off of the ship, coming back home after maybe losing a limb, maybe they missed a child being born, or you know, they've been away from their families for years. And they come off the ship, and the same sign “Negros this way. Whites this way.” I mean, I can imagine it must have been one of the most hurtful experiences of life. But even in the midst of all of that, they persevered. And they went on to show the nation and really to show young people what is possible.

I traveled a lot with the Tuskegee Airmen, to different speaking engagements all over the country. And almost without fail, a white gentleman usually will come up to us and say, "Thank you. My father was a bomber, worked on a bomber plane during World War II, and if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here." I've heard that so many times. And they tell their children, you know, “Shake this man's hand. Thank this man. Take a picture with this man. Because if it wasn't for him, you might not be here.” Descendants of bomber pilots really understand and get the Tuskegee Airmen legacy, and the relevance.

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Guests: Don Wildman, host of the podcast American History Hit; Taylor Bruck, city of Kingston historian; Christine Ridarsky, city of Rochester historian, and board president of APHNYS; Susan Hughes, historian and archivist for the William G. Pomeroy Foundation; Matthew Urtz, Madison County historian

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Guests: Dr. Robert Feranec, director of Research and Collections, curator of Pleistocene vertebrate paleontology, and curator of mammalogy at the New York State Museum; and Dr. Bernard K. Means, project director of the Virtual Curation Laboratory at Virginia Commonwealth University, and co-author (with Maggie Colangelo) of Founding Monsters and Founding Monsters Tales

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Further Reading:

The Cohoes Mastodon: a virtual exhibit from the New York State Museum

Bernard K. Means and Maggie Colangelo, Founding Monsters (2021) and Founding Monsters Tales (2021).

Paul Semonin, American Monster: How the Nation’s First Prehistoric Creature Became a Symbol of National Identity (2000).

Teacher Resources:

Ice Age Mammals Colonize New York: A Stem Lab Derived from Collections-Based Research at the New York State Museum 

Field Trip to the New York State Museum: A Closer Look at the Cohoes Mastodon

Founding Monsters Teacher’s Guide

Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE) Credit: The New York State Museum is an approved provider of Continuing Teacher and Leader Education (CTLE). Educators can earn CTLE credit (.5 hours) by listening to this episode and completing this survey. Please allow up to two weeks to receive confirmation of completion.

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County.

Devin: We are very excited, because we have a new season for our listeners, we have many new stories to tell. Luckily, New York State is full of history full of interesting topics. We have no shortage of material to bring you.

Lauren: So today we're taking things back in time a little bit farther than we usually do by a few thousand years. For this episode, our focus takes us to a marker in the town of Montgomery in Orange County, along State Route 17K. The title of the marker is “Mastodon Dig,” and the text reads: “Charles W. Peale, with support of President Thomas Jefferson, uncovered bones here in 1801. Later exhibited at American Philosophical Society. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2020.”

So today, we're talking about an early mastodon discovery in Orange County, and its connections to some pretty well-known Americans. But before we get into the details of the particular discovery, Devin, maybe you can help me out here. Can you tell me what exactly is a mastodon? When did it live? Because obviously, it's now extinct. They're not walking around New York State. And what's the difference between a mastodon and a woolly mammoth?

Devin: Right, those are great questions, and that's kind of where I began as well. Going back to the basics. What is the difference between a mastodon and a woolly mammoth, as you noted? I think we vaguely know that they are two separate things, but somebody like me, who's a historian and not a scientist, I only have a peripheral view of these creatures. So I sat down with my colleague, Dr. Bob Feranec from the New York State Museum, who told us more

Bob: Broadly, paleontology is the study of ancient life. More specifically, paleontology can be broken down into different subfields. So at the State Museum, we have an invertebrate paleontologist, Dr. Lisa Amati, and she studies things that more or less don't have bones. I'm a vertebrate paleontologist, and my field of study is more or less things that had bones.

Mastodons are a taxon of elephant-like creatures that first split off from the elephant line about 25 million years ago. The family is called Mammutidae. Mammut is the genus for the animal that we're ultimately going to be talking about, which is the American Mastodon, Mammut Americanum. I think when people think of mammoths or mastodons they just think, in general, of these hairy elephant like critters, and the mammoths broke off about 5 million years ago. They're only distantly related to each other, and skeletally, you can see distinct differences among those. So, if you know what you're looking at, you can see these distinct differences. Mammoth teeth are very similar, almost exactly the same as elephant teeth. They’re made up of what we call “loafs,” and they're more flattened, and they have enamel ridges and plates. They are used to grind down grasses and sedges, and here they would have been in tundra environments, so low-lying tundra plants. Mastodon teeth are cusped, more like your teeth and my teeth, so they have points on them. And those were used for crushing rather than grinding. They did live in the similar time period in New York state and across North America, but they occupied different habitats. So, mammoths would have been more out in the open while mastodons were more of a deep forest animal.

Interestingly, we find a lot of Mastodon skeletons or pieces of mastodons in ponds or baggy environments – a lot of times in people's backyards. [A person will] have a pond in their backyard, and they don't want it to be a pond anymore, and they'll drain it, and at the bottom of that pond, there's a mastodon [there]. The development of these ponds from the glacial environments seems to have gone through a relatively common sequence. So, at first after the glacier, you have development of clays. And then just above that, which is more recent in time, you have this immoral sediment and a moral sediment. It’s like a calcium carbonate-dominated sediment – it precipitates out of the boggy environment, and deposits on top of that clay. After that moral is deposited, a lot of times you find in the ponds, peat, which is indicative of a bog or marshy-type of environment. And we think that's really what the mastodons here in New York state would have loved to have lived in. We think that they were kind of living in these boggy, marshy environments, and then died for some [reason] – old age or maybe they got stuck, or maybe later on, we'll find out a human was chasing them. They died in this pond or this bog. And the moral is squishy enough that when that animal dies, it kind of sinks into that sediment. I think also that the moral has a type of environmental condition that is good for preserving these types of bones.

Devin: The earliest discovery of a mastodon tooth by colonists took place in Claverack, New York in 1705. Of course, indigenous people had long known of these types of fossils, but for the colonists, it was something new. At that time, it was thought that these teeth were those of giants described in the Bible. We have to remember that at this time, there was no real understanding of any type of evolution. It was believed that extinction itself was impossible, as it would mean that God designed something that failed. But similar fossils were being found in Europe and other parts of the world, so there was an understanding eventually, over time, that these were creatures that used to live in North America.

Lauren: Also, we're calling it a mastodon. We know that that's what it's called now. But at the time, when you look at the literature that was written, they're referring to it as a mammoth, and sometimes as the “American Incognito,” because they didn't really know what it was. It wasn't until later that they made the distinction that these were actually mastodon fossils.

OK, so let's talk about the 1801 discovery of the Orange County mastadon. It seems a little odd that Orange County was in a rural area, pretty far away from New York City, you know, the big urban center at the time. So how did these big names like Charles Willson Peale and Thomas Jefferson get involved in this excavation on a farmer's field, far away from a major city?

Devin: What it comes down to is a kind of war of words between naturalists and learned men on two different continents. On one side, you have the French nobleman and scientist the Comte de Buffon, who proposed the theory called “American degeneracy” in 1755. The theory basically stated that nature in the New World was inferior to that of in Europe, and that the Americas lacked the large land animals whose bones had been found in Europe, and that still existed in places like Africa and Asia. Buffon even suggested that the people of the New World, including the colonists, were less virile than Europeans. We spoke with Dr. Bernard K. Means, an assistant professor of anthropology at Virginia Commonwealth University.

Bernard: The Comte de Buffon, he argued that the entire New World sapped the vitality of everything living in it, and had been since the Americas, for him, were “newly risen out of the water.” Everything in the Americas was considered, by him, to be weaker and smaller. So you know, I mean, when people say like, “Size matters,” I mean, this is actually, literally true. And probably one of the biggest insults is he talked about how degeneracy made men more effeminate.

Devin: Obviously, this theory did not sit well with the Founding Fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson, who became kind of obsessed with this.

Bernard: You know, you want to produce goods that you want to be able to trade with people. You want skilled artisans and people all kinds of talents to come to your new nation. And how are you going to get people to buy your goods if they're somehow considered to be tainted? How are you going to get people to come to your country if they think that they and their children will be impacted?

Jefferson goes to Paris, and he brings what he refers to as “uncommonly large panther skin” for them to try to show to Buffon and say, “Look, we have a big cat.” The following response was, “Your cats don't have beards. They don't have manes, so therefore they're not masculine.”

There was a period during the Revolution where Franklin is in France. He's at a dinner, he and a bunch of Americans are sitting on one side of the table, and the French are sitting on the other side of the table. And apparently, Franklin challenged everybody to stand, because he knew all the Americans were taller. But the French did not take him up on that.

Jefferson actually got somebody to kill a moose for him – but they dragged it like 20 miles through the woods, and by the time it got to Jefferson, it must have been pretty decrepit-looking. But we don't actually know what Buffon thought of this stinky moose carcass because he died.

Now, while he dies, the theory of American degeneracy lives on. And so, they're finding these fossils, and they became very concerned. Clearly, we have something big, we don't quite know what it is. But it's going to help us prove that we have something bigger than anything known at that time. The issue – and this will segue us into Peale – the issue is that they’re mostly finding teeth. They didn't find complete skeletons.

Lauren: We all know the names of Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and Ben Franklin, but Charles Willson Peale may be a name that's less familiar to our listeners. Devin, can you tell us a little bit about who Charles Willson Peale was, and why he's important?

Devin: Yeah, absolutely. Charles Willson Peale was a prominent painter. He was born in 1741 in the British colony of Maryland. He's really known as an artist, for painting many of the Founding Fathers. Besides being an artist, Peale was a bit of a Renaissance man. He had a great interest in natural history, and after the Revolution, he opened what is now considered to be the first museum that was open to the public in the United States, which began operations in 1786 in Philadelphia. In the museum, Peale displayed his artwork, along with the work of others, as well as a variety of animal specimens, archaeological artifacts, and fossils.

Lauren: Another connection between the Founding Fathers and Charles Willson Peale was the American Philosophical Society. This society is known as the oldest learned society in the United States. It was founded by Ben Franklin in 1743. We might think that the American Philosophical Society was where people would meet to talk about philosophy, but actually, they were focusing on the study of nature. So this would have been naturalists and scientists that were interested in the world around them, the scientific world around them. And many Founding Fathers – remember, not just Thomas Jefferson, but also Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Paine (someone who we've talked about in a previous episode) – [were part of it]. And so it was a prestigious society. They were actually given space right in Independence Square in Philadelphia, where they built Philosophical Hall in the 1780s. So the connection for this particular dig in 1801, between Jefferson and Charles Willson Peale, really stems from them both being members of the American Philosophical Society.

Devin: So let's talk a little bit about the excavation. Well, in 1799, a farmer discovered some mastodon fossils, and this discovery made the newspapers. And Peale believed that he could potentially uncover an intact skeleton. So, with support from the American Philosophical Society, he traveled to Orange County in 1801.

Bernard: And he said, “Look, we need to excavate this mastodon.” And so he gets permission from [farmer] John Maston, to try to dig out more of the morass. And this is sort of like a celebrity discovery, right? People are coming from all over to look at this. And in fact, they're willy-nilly ripping bones out of the moral pit.

Lauren: He knew he was going to have to bring in some help, and one of the things he did was write to Thomas Jefferson to ask for the use of pumps. He thought, because it was such a watery area, that the use of large pumps would help him to pump the water out. And Thomas Jefferson actually agreed to help him by sending these pumps. However, in the meantime, Peale had devised a plan to build a wheel that would use buckets and the power of humans, turning this wheel – kind of like a hamster wheel – to be able to remove the water from the site. He actually describes this contraption to Jefferson in a letter: “The idea instantly occurred of a chain of buckets carried around an axis, pouring the lifted water into a trough communicating to the basin.” And he's referring to a pond here, that he’s going to dump the water into. “The power of raising the weight of which, obtained by a wheel of 20 feet diameter of a width for men to walk within, as a squirrel in a cage.” So the men would walk in the wheel, turning the wheel, and that would propel the buckets out of the morass and then dump them into the corresponding pond.

Bernard: He's a showman. You know, he wants to get people engaged. He wants people to feel like they're part of what they're doing. And so people come in, they run inside of this hamster wheel and help pump out the water.

Lauren: This particular morass that he refers to – the skeleton within it was not complete, so he did have to go to some other moral pits in the local area. And by going to those places and getting more bones, he actually had enough at the end to make two mastodon skeletons.

Devin: It took him several months to actually put the skeletons together because, although it was the most complete skeletons of a mastodon that had been found, they weren't 100 percent complete, so they had to fabricate missing pieces and bones. And that was done by Rembrandt Peale, his son.

Bernard: Charles Willson Peale, Rembrandt Peale, and Rubens Peale, their enslaved servant, Moses Williams – who Charles Willson Peale credits with being particularly good at piecing the bones together – and Casper Wister [were involved]. Casper Wister was a prominent physician in Philadelphia, and also basically a leading paleontologist himself. And he had actually done the same thing for [another fossil]. Jefferson was sent bones in 1796 from what is now West Virginia, from an animal with giant claws, which Jefferson was convinced was a giant lion. He gave a presentation about this giant lion, and he was about to publish it, and Casper Wister goes, “You know, there's some report coming out of South America. I think what you have is a giant ground sloth.” And it turns out, it was, in fact, a giant ground sloth – so not a meat-eater.

And then they get William Rush, who was making a name for himself as a carver. And he actually carved bones out of wood, as do the Peale sons, and as does Moses Williams, to replace bones that they're missing. So, they have more than one mastodon skeleton. And they reconstruct the most complete one, but they use the other skeleton to help them sort of figure out what the bones should look like, that they're missing. And so the mastodon that gets reconstructed is a mixture of actual fossils, some wooden bones, and the very top of his skull is reconstructed in plaster. Using wood was actually kind of a unique thing to be done at that time. But I should also point out that the mastodon that Peale and his team put together is only the second fossil reconstruction done anywhere in the world, of any type.

Devin: The skeletons were accurate, except that Rembrandt Peale insisted that the tusk be placed in such a way that would suggest that the mastodon was a carnivore. So, he put the tusks in facing the wrong way, so that they were facing down – because this carnivore would use the tusks for battle, but would also use them to dig rodents or shellfish out of areas and that, again, they were hopeful that this creature was a carnivore. Of course, that was incorrect, and over time, they did acquiesce to the reality that the tusks would fit much like a modern elephant.

Lauren: He was so adamant on this that he actually [put it] in the title of the paper [in which] he writes about this excavation. He refers to it as a carnivorous animal. The title, which may be one of the longest titles ever, is: “An historical disquisition on the mammoth, or great American Incognito, an extinct, immense, carnivorous animal whose fossil remains have been found in North America.”

Bernard: They have this mastodon reconstructed, and it premieres to the members of the American Philosophical Society on Christmas Eve, 1801. And then it opens up to the public the next day. It’s Christmas Day, and it's popular. It's the dinosaur craze of the day. Here's this giant skeleton, the largest animal known to exist anywhere in the Americas. Peale actually charges extra money for people to see it. It was in a separate room. This is probably hyperbole, but apparently women were fainting when they saw how big this thing was. There's literally what becomes referred to as a “mammoth craze.” And it's because of the mastodon that we actually have the word “mammoth” used to mean something large.

Devin [to Bernard]: Going back to the impetus behind this discovery – to dispel the theory of American degeneracy. Did it have that effect in Europe?

Bernard: Not by everybody. There was actually a guy who was trying to get in good with the King of Prussia, and he was really pushing the theory of American degeneracy well into the 1850s, because the King of Prussia was trying to encourage emigration to Prussia. But eventually, people are becoming more scientific. We have Cuvier, we have Lamarck, we have Darwin, we have Humboldt, we have Franklin – Franklin, by the way, who was seen as proof of America degeneracy, because he was widely recognized as the smartest man in America, and if there wasn't American degeneracy, we should have more than one genius in the Americas. You know, you can bend the evidence to whatever you want. So it begins to sort of wane throughout the 1830s and well after, you know, the Founding Fathers are all dead. And of course, we start seeing dinosaurs being discovered, right? And those are truly massive animals. And some of the major dinosaurs are from out in the Western U.S. You have T. Rex, Triceratops, you have these clearly, really big animals. And so Buffon’s theories, you know, really seem dated and quaint.

Lauren: Not being a scientist, I wasn't really sure how this episode was going to play out before we started doing the research for it. But it actually turned into a really interesting, prehistoric and historic story.

Devin: Lauren, I agree. This episode turned into a really interesting story about the history of science, but also a conflict between Europe and the United States, or what became the United States, as well as the role of very prominent founders in science and early naturalism on this continent, and how that played out as well. It also kind of makes me look at things like our own mastodon skeleton, the Cohoes Mastadon, which we have at the New York State Museum now, and any school group in the Capital Region has seen that. But it really makes you look at it in a different way, and understand what these large fossils symbolized even beyond their actual scientific importance. And we're still discovering mastodon fossils today. Dr. Feranec says the remains of over 160 individual mastodons have been discovered in New York state alone.

Bob: I would say every couple of years, we get a notification that somebody's found one. There was one, I think found in 2017, a fairly complete specimen that was excavated on a farm. In 2009, there was another gentleman that was goting down the Wallkill River and noticed that there was a tusk coming out of the river. And so far, actually, they turned out to be the oldest – we radiocarbon-dated them, and so far, they're the oldest specimens that we know [of]. They radiocarbon-dated to, I think, 12,900 radiocarbon years ago, and that's about 14,500 or 14,000 years from the present.

Devin [to Bob]: Why do we think mastodons and mammoths, as species, died out?

Bob: I have my own personal [theory], and I think it's accurate. There's been a long debate as to whether humans were the major cause, or climate change was the major cause, particularly in North America. Mammoths and mastodons are part of a large extinction that happens in North America, where over 50 taxa of large animals go extinct at the end of what we call the Pleistocene epoch. In New York state, we think these animals went extinct about 12,000 years ago. And for me, you have these two things, kind of working in tandem. At the end of the Pleistocene epoch, we go from a really cold environment, and it starts to warm up, and it warms up fairly quickly. And then for about 1,500 years, it reverts back to a glacial environment. We call that period the Younger Dryas. And so it's warming up, and then it reverts back to a cold environment for 1,500 years, and it warms back up really quickly. And it's more or less in the warm, interglacial environment that we're living in today. But what we know from the Pleistocene epoch is that those types of climate changes occurred many times in the past. And we didn't see the scale of extinction that we have at the end of the Pleistocene. So what's the difference? Well, the difference is, geologically, shortly before this extinction event: humans get here. And we know from many different places that, when humans get to certain areas, generally extinction follows them. If we look at the habitats that are present in New York state, the habitats that these animals prefer are absolutely present in the state at that time. So the habitats that they prefer are here, but they're still going extinct. So to me, maybe climate change affected something of their population sizes, but humans had to have some influence.

Devin [to Bob]: But in recent developments in the scientific world, there's been discussion of the possibility of bringing either a mastodon or mammoth back to life using a process called genetic transformation. I don't know if anybody's talked about really bringing a dinosaur back, and I hope they don't. But what are your thoughts on a.) Is it scientifically possible? And b.) Is that something that we should do?

Bob: I don't think I'm certain that we'll never have the genetic material to recreate a dinosaur. They do have whole genomes of mammoth and mastodon. However, you're never going to recreate this creature as it was in life. What you may create is a hairy elephant. I don't think they would ever be able to utilize an elephant egg for genetic material for a mastodon. I'm not certain that would work. But in my opinion, you'll never get what they're trying to get, which is to recreate the exact species. I don't know what really the point of it is, in that, when we talk about species, species have a particular niche that is specific to that particular animal. The types of environments that are around today were not around 25,000 years ago, 30,000 years ago. The habitats that we have today are absolutely different from what the habitats were like when those animals were alive.

It seems to me that it would be much a better use of finances – if you're really concerned about conservation and conservation biology – to utilize those funds, instead of recreating something that you're really not ever going to recreate anyway, but to study and understand the ecosystems of today, and how we might prevent further extinctions of animals that we have around today. Whether that be just buying up land so animals have space to live, or making sure that specific species survive.

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

On September 8, 2022, the courthouse will officially celebrate its 250th birthday, with the New York State Court of Appeals conducting its business there for the first time.

Guests: Hon. J. Gerard McAuliffe, Jr., Fulton County Family Court judge; Hon. Albert M. Rosenblatt, retired New York State Court of Appeals judge; Samantha Hall-Saladino, Fulton County historian; Noel Levee, City of Johnstown historian

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Further Reading:

Historic Courthouses of the State of New York, Julia Carlson Rosenblatt and Albert M. Rosenblatt (2006).

Fulton County Courthouse, The Historical Society of the Courts of the State of New York.

The Letters of Daniel Cady

Elizabeth Cady Stanton: An American Life, Lori D. Ginzberg (2010).

Building a Revolutionary State: The Legal Transformation of New York, 1776-1783, Howard Pashman, Esq. (2018).

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On this episode, we're going to focus on a William G. Pomeroy marker located in the city of Johnstown, in Fulton County. The marker sits on the lawn of the Fulton County Courthouse, located on the corner of West Main Street and North William Street, and it reads: “Suffrage Pioneer, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, 1815-1902. Her father practiced law here in early 19th Century, inspiring her fight for women's rights. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2017.”

I'm guessing most of our listeners have heard of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and know about the incredibly important role she played in the women's suffrage movement. But they may not be familiar with her life prior to the famous Seneca Falls Convention which took place in 1848, and produced the Declaration of Sentiments, a document which listed freedoms and rights that women should be entitled to, including the right to vote. In Elizabeth's early life, she grew up in Johnstown, New York, where her father Daniel Cady practiced law. It was her exposure to his law practice, and the firsthand experiences Elizabeth had in his law office and in the courthouse, that showed her how poorly women were treated in the eyes of the law in the early 19th Century.

Now, that's a huge claim to fame for any courthouse. But for this particular courthouse, its association with Elizabeth Cady Stanton and her father Daniel is only one piece of the puzzle in the big picture story it has to tell.

Devin: That's right, and the William G. Pomeroy Foundation marker is only one of the markers that exists in front of the Fulton County Courthouse. There is another one that was erected by the State Education Department. And it reads: “Erected 1772, Only colonial courthouse in state of New York, first court General Sessions, Tryon County, September 8, 1772.” In effect, it is saying that the Fulton County Courthouse is the oldest continuously operating courthouse in the state of New York, and has been in operation since there was no state of New York, and the state was in fact a colony of Great Britain.

Lauren: And if I'm doing my math correctly, it means that the Fulton County Courthouse should be celebrating a very important anniversary this year. To learn more about the early days of the courthouse and the Johnstown area, we had the privilege to visit the Fulton County Courthouse on a beautiful spring day, where we got to see this historic building firsthand. We spoke with Fulton County Historian Samantha Hall-Saladino.

Samantha: So we are on the ancestral homelands of the Mohawk people, part of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. When the European colonists settled here, this became known as Tryon County. It was formed out of Albany County. It was named after the governor at the time, William Tryon. This area really developed under the oversight of Sir William Johnson. He was of Irish extraction. He had come to the Mohawk Valley in 1738, at the request of his uncle, Peter Warren, to help him clear the land that he had purchased on the south side of the Mohawk River. But Johnson realized that the trade routes are on the north side of the river, and so he decided to buy his own property and cultivated a relationship with the local Native Americans, specifically the Mohawk, and then started dealing directly with the merchants in New York City, cutting off the merchants and business folks in Albany. So he was not very popular, to that extent. He had a very robust military career, and because of his role as Indian agent, he was given the title of baronet, and he actually purchased the land that became Johnstown from some Mohawk at Canajoharie. So it was not a land grant, he purchased directly from the Native Americans.

Devin: Why did he want to create an actual town? What was his idea behind creating Johnstown?

Samantha: I mean, from my perspective, right? We don't know what exactly he was thinking. But he certainly continued to improve himself, build up his name, and accumulate land. I think he wanted a legacy in a sense, and it was his idea to create Tryon County so that Johnstown could be the seat. Almost immediately after, Johnson went to work in building a courthouse and a jail. He contributed £500 of his own money to the building of the courthouse. And I think for Johnson and the residents here, it represented westward expansion for them. They were “conquering the wilds,” and they were bringing British law and order to what was wilderness to them. Of course, after the American Revolution, the British Royal Governor was not very popular among the remaining people living in this area, and so they chose the name Montgomery County, after General Richard Montgomery, who was killed in Quebec. And then in 1836, the county seat was moved from Johnstown to Fonda. The Johnstown folks were not so appreciative of that, and a charge was led to create a new county out of Montgomery. One of the leading people in this charge was Judge Daniel Cady, the father of Elizabeth Cady Stanton. They chose the name Fulton, after the engineer Robert Fulton. He was a relation of Daniel Cady's wife. And so Fulton County was born in 1838.

Devin: What was the situation here as the colonies moved closer and closer to revolution?

Samantha: So Sir William Johnson actually died in July of 1774. And I think as modern historians, we like to play that “what if” game, like “What if Sir William Johnson hadn't died right as things are heating up with the American Revolution?” Because he was a loyalist. His son, Sir John Johnson, who essentially took his place after his death, was also a loyalist. But there were people in this area who were considered rebels, I guess you'd say patriots. There were things happening here.

In May of 1775, General Philip Schuyler ordered the 3rd New Jersey Regiment to Johnstown to quell some of the loyalist activities that were happening here, and in an attempt to capture John Johnson. By the time they arrived, he was long gone and fled to Canada. But the militia paraded through Johnstown, they took possession of the courthouse, of the jail, of St. John's Church, which is just across the street from where we are today. They set up their tents and their camps right on the lawns out in front of the courthouse. And if you are familiar with Johnson Hall, you are familiar with the banister, along the staircase, which to this day has displayed signs of damage, like somebody smashed something along the railing of the staircase. And that damage was caused most likely during this time, when the 3rd New Jersey Regiment was here and stationed at Johnson Hall. In 1776, the New York provincial convention ordered all the lead weights from the window at the Tryon County Courthouse to be removed by the local militia, so they could melt it down and use for ammunition. But despite all this, the courts continue to meet during this time.

Devin: Now one of the things that I think is really fascinating is the fact that this was an existing courthouse during British colonial rule. We have to think about the transition that would have happened in 1776 with the Declaration of Independence, and then the following American Revolution. The entire system was being challenged by the colonial patriots, as they were known, against British law, in some regards – at least against the government.

Lauren: It’s neighbor against neighbor, brother against brother, a true civil war when everyone is trying to figure out which side they're on. So it sounds like things could have become very upside down in the court system when you transition from the British court to the Patriots court. Is that what happened?

Devin: It’s a question that I really had in my mind, too. So to learn more about the history of our courts, I sat down with Albert Rosenblatt, a former judge on the New York State Court of Appeals, and a historian of our courts.

Albert: It was, I'm going to say, at the start, all but seamless. When New York wrote its first constitution in 1777, a year after the Declaration of Independence, New York declared that it will follow the English common law. And what else would they follow? They wouldn't follow the common law of Mars or Saturn or some other unrecognized jurisdiction. The common law would work because the common law was, in a way, the grandparent of our own Bill of Rights. When we speak of free speech, freedom of religion, our concerns about search and seizure, those derived from British common law – which is interesting, because England and the United States would probably reach the same result in a great many civil liberties inquiries. We, however, rely on words like “due process,” and words to that effect, but in a written constitution. They have those impulses from an unwritten constitution, and from a lengthy history of English common law that goes back through the Petition of Right, the writ of habeas corpus, going all the way back even to the Magna Carta.

So what then really took place is that the common law of England was our base – and in a sense, it still is. And we've extrapolated on that our own statutes. So we begin with a common law, and then the legislature goes to work, and it either affirms the common law by statute, or leaves it alone, or upends it and says, “Well, this is a common law rule, but we in New York are legislating or codifying something else that undoes the common law.” So that's the historical trajectory, and we still function that way today.

Lauren: Well, when you're 250 years old, you certainly have a long history of interesting cases that have been heard inside the walls. In order to get some of these highlights. We spoke with Noel Levee, who is the city of Johnstown historian.

Devin: What about the trial that involved Aaron Burr?

Noel: That's an interesting one, and I had to read up a little bit more on to it. Solomon Southwick, who was a former speaker of the assembly for the state, he was the defendant, and the plaintiff was Alexander Sheldon, who was the current speaker of the assembly of the state. If you ever read the book on Hamilton, Hamilton tried to establish a federal bank for the country. That was one of his little things he wanted to start, and there was a lot of opponents for it. At this point in 1812, that came up again, to build this bank in New York City. Alexander Sheldon charged Southwick with bribery, because he claimed Southwick tried to get him to vote for the creation of the bank. Big, big trial. The defendant, for his attorneys, he had Abraham van Vechten, I think Alexander Foote, and Daniel Cady, and the high profile attorney leading it was Aaron Burr.

[Aaron Burr] had already had a lot of intrigue in his life at this point. In 1804, he had killed Alexander Hamilton [in a duel]. He was vice president under [Thomas] Jefferson. He was brought to trial for treason, because he tried to create his own country. And so that was what brought the crowds in. The courthouse was packed. The outside was packed, the whole grounds were all packed with people. The other attorneys asked some really pointed questions to Sheldon, to a point where he was sweating profusely on the stand. And they caught him with some off [statements], he had said some things that weren't quite right. And this is what got him, I guess.

Devin: Burr won the case.

Noel: They won the case.

Lauren: So what about the trial of Elizabeth van Valkenburg?

Noel: That was very interesting. 1845. They were living in Perth, which is not far from here. She was married for the second time. Not a very nice guy. He drank a lot, and was abusive, I guess, to her kids. So she decided she was going to buy some arsenic. He came home after several days, and she gave him a cup of tea with [arsenic], and he evidently got violently sick. And then she actually had a bleeding heart and tried to nurse him back, and he didn't drink for a while. And then several months later, he went back. So she just kept pouring the arsenic back in. And eventually, he went through a convulsion, and she got scared and left the house. She went to a neighbor's barn and tried to hide out there. She was up in a loft, and she fell out of the loft and she broke her hip.

Well, I guess it was a fairly quick trial. Even the judge had said, “I don't have any pity on you.” Although, she created an atmosphere in town where a lot of people were on her side, including Elizabeth Cady Stanton. They were both rooting for her and were against [the death penalty], because she did get the sentence of execution. They were against that. And then it came out toward the very end that she had been married once before, and it was pretty much the same situation, where it was the abusive drinking husband, and she did the same thing with arsenic and got rid of him.

Devin: One of the prominent judges associated with the courthouse is Daniel Cady, and obviously his daughter Elizabeth Cady Stanton. What can you tell us about Daniel Cady and what was their interest and role in the courthouse?

Noel: Judge Cady came to Johnstown. I think he was admitted to the bar in 1790-something, and he came to Johnstown shortly after that as a young attorney. As a practicing attorney, he also elevated himself to the New York Assembly, the Senate – actually, the year that Elizabeth was born, he was a United States senator for one year. Now, his house was always used for not only his family, but he also took in the interns, and he had a law library and all that. And of course, they would study. There's that story – I mean, the interns were staying there through holidays. This was a Christmas morning. Young Elizabeth receives this necklace, and she shows it off, and actually, who she's showing it off to is her future brother-in-law and his brother. And Edward Baird says, “You know, if you were my wife, that would belong to me.” And she goes, “Oh, no.”

Elizabeth got involved with the whole legal thing too because of her father. Again, there's that other story that she tells throughout her life. In town here, there was a Mrs. Campbell. She had a grown son, and her husband had died. And the way the law was, the son inherited everything. She went to judge Cady to say, “Can't the law at least give me a room in my own house that I can stay in?” And basically, he says, “The law all sides with your son, that he inherited everything and he gets it.” And Elizabeth tells a story that she was woeful that this woman was crying, and she says “I'm going to I'm going to go through my father's law books. I'm going to go through every law that besmirches women, and I'm going to tear those pages out of the law books, so he can't look at it.” The judge took Elizabeth aside and basically said, “Law books are printed all the time. If you want to change the law, you have to go to Albany or you have to go to Washington. You have to fight the change the law.”

Devin: One of the things that struck me in your research was how much the original courthouse was actually a community center.

Noel: Well, shortly after the Revolution, of course, Johnson built a coed interracial school, one of the first in the state, and that was kitty corner from here, on the corner. So anyways, after the Revolutionary War, the school was falling apart. And they started using the courthouse as a school. And in the meantime, they were building an academy, which was a tuition academy. And that's where Elizabeth Cady Stanton went. And after the Revolution, one of the big things was the Fourth of July celebrations. After they started doing county fairs here. So they were using the inside of the courtroom, where they were setting up tables for fruits, vegetables, and whatever they planted. And according to one poster, the cattle and livestock were down the street a little bit and careened off.

Devin: It's much different than the way we think of courthouses, and how they're used today.

Noel: I mean, even up into recently, [before they] totally got strict with the laws about security, all you had to do was fill out a paper and you could use the courthouse, and there were functions going on here.

Lauren: There are so many fascinating stories in the history of this courthouse. But perhaps the most amazing feat is that today, in 2022, it's still a functioning court. So what does it look like today, and how has it changed over the years?

Devin: As we mentioned earlier, we toured the courthouse and met with Judge Gerard McAuliffe, who spoke about the work of the court today.

Gerard: This court is utilized today, and every day, for hearing motions, trials, hearings of both civil and criminal matters. In fact, we recently had a presiding Supreme Court Justice named Richard Aulisi, who retired approximately three years ago, when he was the Fulton County Supreme Court Justice. He was assigned as the asbestos judge in that regard. He would, once a month, have what they called “Asbestos Day” in the Fulton County Courthouse, where 25 percent of the cases on his docket would be conferenced, with between 90 to 110 attorneys who would attend that conference day. Judge Aulisi did that for years, and our Fulton County Courthouse was utilized to conference effectively all the asbestos cases in upstate New York. The courthouse on a daily basis provides us an opportunity for those in the court system to have meetings, seminars if necessary. So, our courthouse is vigorously utilized today.

Devin: The courthouse’s exact birthday is September 8. And in honor of this, there is an elaborate celebration being planned. Possibly the most exciting aspect of which is that the New York State Court of Appeals, our state's highest court, will be meeting at the Fulton County Courthouse instead of their usual chambers in Albany.

Lauren: One of the aspects of the celebration I think is really cool is that the event planners are working with local school districts to ensure that students are in involved in the celebration as well.

Gerard: When the Court of Appeals decided they would come to Fulton County, they asked one thing of us here: they asked us to engage our high school students in the process. We hope to have high school students seated in a preferred seating area, where they'll be able to observe the arguments on September 8, 2022, from a vantage point that will be very, very unique. Those arguments will also be live streamed, and there's also a very good possibility that we will have an overflow area outside, where arguments can be viewed remotely. We will have the courthouse available for tours and viewing throughout the remainder of that day.

This courthouse, to me, and the process that we have gone through, has been a shining beacon of hope for the people of our city, county, state, and nation. Today, as I said, it's engaged in every aspect of civil and criminal litigation, and perhaps very importantly, for our discussion, in the midst of this pandemic, this courthouse has continued, giving us an opportunity here in Fulton County to focus on the positive nature of our history, to take a moment, to recollect where we've been, what we've done, and perhaps where we're going. So the courthouse to me, speaks volumes. And it's no less a shining beacon of hope today than it was 250 years ago, at the time it was built.

Lauren: As illustrated by those we spoke with, this courthouse evokes strong feelings from those who use it daily as part of legal proceedings and court cases, but also those in the community who have an appreciation for the 250 years of history it has not only witnessed but played an active role in. From the time when people living in Johnstown were British subjects, all the way to the present, this Court has been involved in delivering justice, as a community gathering space, as a place to celebrate, and to congregate. It remains active in the legal system today, and continues to bring feelings of reverence from those who sit inside its walls. The celebration that is planned for September 8 will be yet another piece of the puzzle in this building's amazing history, and we encourage our listeners to be on the lookout for more information on the celebration as the date draws closer. And we wish the organizers the best of luck in this great event.

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Guests: Doreen Kelly, executive director of Wiawaka, and Karen Quinn, art historian and curator at the New York State Museum

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Further Reading:

Messinger, Lisa Mintz. Georgia O'Keeffe. London: Thames & Hudson, 2001.

O'Keeffe, Georgia. Georgia O'Keeffe. New York: Viking, 1976.

Wiawaka Holiday House: https://upstatehistorical.org/items/show/84?tour=7&index=10

Capital Region Textile Industry: https://www.albanyinstitute.org/textile-industry.html

The Collar City by Don Rittner: https://rensselaer.nygenweb.net/article11.htm

Collar Maid Cuffed Bosses by Pam Trudeau: https://rensselaer.nygenweb.net/article4.htm

More on Georgia O’Keeffe: https://www.okeeffemuseum.org/about-georgia-okeeffe/

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. On this episode, we're taking a deeper look at a marker located along Route 9L on the eastern shores of Lake George, which is located in Warren County. The title of the marker is “Georgia O'Keeffe,” and the text reads: “Georgia O'Keeffe, 1887 to 1986. American artist who stayed at Wakonda in June 1908 on a scholarship from the Art Students League. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2016.”

The artist Georgia O'Keeffe is pretty much a household name, but I'm guessing many of our listeners haven't heard of Wakonda, which is the lodge Georgia O'Keeffe stayed in, or the Art Students League. So let's take a step back and talk about what brought this young artist to the shores of Lake George in the summer of 1908.

In the 19th century, the city of Troy in Rensselaer County was known as the "Collar City," because Troy produced the majority of detachable shirt collars in the country. Detachable collars are now a thing of the past, but in the 19th Century, they were really popular. The collar was usually the dirtiest part of the shirt, and it needed to be laundered most frequently, and in the days before washing machines, this was really a pain. So someone in Troy — there's a couple of conflicting stories about who actually came up with the idea — but someone in Troy created the concept of a detachable shirt collar, and eventually detachable cuffs as well. So the idea was, you could just remove the collar and replace it when it was dirty, saving the laundresses from having to wash the entire shirt. This industry exploded in Troy, and by the early 1900s, 15,000 people were working in the collar industry in that city.

It also expanded into the larger textile industry, which made it a desirable location for new immigrants to settle, because jobs were readily available. The majority of workers in the textile industry in Troy were female, and many of them were immigrants, most of them with very low incomes, who worked extremely long hours. And this is where Mary Fuller enters the story. Mary Fuller was the daughter of a wealthy Troy industrialist who was an advocate for women's rights. Mary Fuller was sensitive to the fact that these women working in the industries in and around Troy, such as the shirt collar factories, mills, and laundries — they couldn't have afforded a vacation. They were making really low wages and just getting by, and so Mary fuller had the idea to create a place that would be affordable for these women to be able to have some respite from their jobs in the city.

Doreen: My name is Doreen Kelly. I'm the executive director at Wiawaka Center for Women. Our original name is Wiawaka Holiday House.

Lauren: To learn more about Wiawaka, we spoke with the executive director Doreen Kelly.

Doreen: Katrina Trask and Mary Fuller both believed in giving back to the working woman. They believed in giving these women that worked in the factories in Troy an opportunity to have a holiday on Lake George.

Lauren: Mary Fuller's family had means, and so that means she also had friends with means. So she approached one of these friends, Katrina Trask, to ask for help in developing this vision. The Trask name might be familiar to people in and around Saratoga Springs, which is where Spenser and Katrina Trask had a home called Yaddo. They also had purchased an estate on the southeastern shores of Lake George, which was called Crosbyside. It was the site of a former hotel, the United States Hotel. The property seemed exactly what Mary Fuller had envisioned as a getaway for the young, working women of Troy. It wasn't terribly far away from the city, it was out in the country with fresh air. At first, Mary Fuller leased this property from the Trasks, but eventually Katrina sold it to Mary for $1 and a bouquet of flowers.

Doreen: Wiawaka was formed. It’s the oldest continuously operating women's retreat center in the country. [Wiawaka] is an old Indian name [for] “the great spirit of women.”

We have five historic buildings where people can stay, overnight accommodations. Three of them are Victorian in style, and those are the original Fuller House, where Mary Fuller's family originally had stayed, but now is the main house. The dining room’s there, the front desk is there, and there's also staff quarters. Rose and Mayflower are two other Victorian cottages similar in that they were also considered guest cottages, but they’re two floors. Lake House was built in the early 1950s because of the overflow of all the guests that were staying at Wiawaka, and it's got also a very Adirondack feel to it, with eight rooms on the top and eight rooms on the bottom. And there's a communal screened-in area that's quite lovely. People love Lake House. And then Wakonda is still the same, original to its date of what it looked like back in 1908. Very Adirondack in style, with the bead boarding and the ornate woodwork in the front. It’s very simple furnishings, but it is the closest building to the water, so when your windows are open, you can hear the water, get the breezes. So it's a very beautiful, open, spacious, peaceful location on Lake George.

Wakonda was where the New York City League of Art Students stayed. They gave the students the ability to apply to different types of opportunities to go and paint outside of New York City, and they stayed for a month. And we know Georgia O'Keeffe did stay, and we even know the room number: Room 18. Her award-winning submission was the [Dead Rabbit and Copperpot], and that is what won her the scholarship to come paint on Lake George for a month.

Devin: Most people know the name Georgia O'Keeffe, and probably those that do recognize her for the work she created in New Mexico, and her kind of existential nature scenes, as well as her famous flowers, of course. But I think there's less of a realization that Georgia O'Keeffe spent a great amount of time in New York — New York City as well as Lake George. So how did Georgia O'Keeffe end up in New York City? She was born on a farm in Wisconsin, she spent time as a teacher, she spent time moving around before she followed her muse as an artist. And of course, New York City being the kind of bastion of art in this country, then and today (We're talking the early 20th Century), [that] really was the reason that she ended up there. I sat down with my colleague, Art Historian Karen Quinn, who tells us a little bit more about Georgia's early life.

Karen: She came from a family of farmers, but her mother and grandmother were very much interested in the arts, and certainly fostered that not only in Georgia, but in her sister Ida, as well, who is a good artist. But Georgia went first to the Art Institute of Chicago, and then she headed east to the Art Students League in New York City, which truly was the place to go. The Art Students League is one of the most important art schools in this country. Historically, it was founded in the 1870s as a response to the National Academy of Design, which is also in New York City, and which was more of a conservative institution. And the Art Students League would allow people to come in and just take classes, which was attractive to students. The list of artists who've gone to the Art Students League is a mile long, everybody from Winslow Homer to Jackson Pollock.

Devin: Oftentimes, students would go on to become teachers there, and this continues to this day. The Art Students League is still open and vibrant and flourishing in New York City. It is also famous for its summer schools. We know about the one in Woodstock that it held for many years, in the Woodstock Arts Colony, but it also, obviously, held one in Lake George in 1908. And her piece that she put forward for this award was actually a very realistic type of artwork. It was realism — she was not a modernist [then], as she would later become famous for. So I think we see that change from realism to modernism beginning in her time in Lake George.

Doreen: She was probably about 18, 19 years of age, and as far as details of their time on the lake, I feel it was very flexible. There may have been other artists and instructors that came over the course of the time they were there, but they were all given the flexibility to paint. We have several photographs of her participating in different activities on the property, and we know that they did go boating, and they walked into the village. And it's quite interesting to hear that that's when Georgia also started painting more flowers and the lake. And in her history, we know that that's where she got a lot of that inspiration — it was her time on Lake George. And we also know she extended her time. So she spent most of that first summer at Wiawaka and Wakonda, painting and being part of that New York City elite group of artists.

Karen:  In the 1910s, she was kind of all over the board, teaching and trying to eke out a living, and at times she turned away from art briefly. She took some summer school classes when she was teaching in Virginia, and the teacher there introduced her to the concepts of Arthur Wesley Dow, and Dow continues to be influential as a teacher. He published a well-known art book called Composition. He was very interested in the tenets of Japanese design, and this led to O'Keeffe experimenting and moving away from the kind of painting she had done early on in the Art Students League, such as [Dead Rabbit and Copperpot]. Her art became completely abstract by the mid-1910s, something that she then would back away from afterwards, but it was that work on paper, charcoals that came to the attention of Alfred Stieglitz, when a friend of O'Keeffe sent the work (unbeknownst to her) to Stieglitz. And Stieglitz, actually, was profoundly interested in the work, and exhibited it at his gallery, 291, in New York City.

Lauren: This trip that Georgia took to Lake George would certainly not be her last, right, Devin?

Devin: You're right, and Georgia’s return to Lake George really is a result of her relationship with Alfred Stieglitz, who was a prominent photographer and gallery owner in New York City. He was really the first person to show Georgia's work professionally in his gallery. He was also a talent scout of sorts for various artists.

Karen: He had his fingers in many, many pots. He himself was an extraordinary photographer. He promoted photography as a fine art at a time when photography was belittled. He promoted American art at a time when American art was not first and foremost on people's minds. He had a series of galleries in New York City, where he had a stable of artists that would include O'Keeffe and other artists who are considered modernists, like John Marin and Arthur Dove, Charles Sheeler, and so forth. He invited O’Keeffe to move to New York, and basically provided her with a living starting in 1918. So she came back to New York, and they would eventually marry in 1924. So it was this extraordinary relationship between the two of them — and it wasn't all sunshine and roses. He was married when he met her. He couldn't get divorced for six years. And then it was through Stieglitz's family getaway in Lake George that she returned to Lake George.

She's beginning to become the O'Keeffe that we all associate with her work. She's starting to work in still life with the flowers. She's very influenced by the architecture around Lake George — the barns, she does a whole series of the barns. She does a variety of the kinds of things that we would associate with her abstract, but still recognizable, style. She steps away from the pure abstraction that she had achieved in the 1910s and goes back to something that still has a foot in visual reality, but she is certainly putting her mark on it. And she's certainly making things the way she sees them. She becomes an amazing colorist. Sometimes her paintings are so subtle in color, and just unbelievably quiet, and then other times, they're bombastic. Some of that comes when she starts to go to New Mexico, but she really had quite a brilliant career as a colorist.

One of my favorite series that sort of has the essence of O'Keeffe at Lake George is this series called the "Shell and Old Shingle" series. And it starts out fairly recognizable, and they're small. The old shingle is a barn shingle, and it's a clam shell, and she gets increasingly — in their little verticals, they get increasingly more abstract until she turns the shell and old shingle on its side. And the profile of the shingle becomes the landscape of Lake George. People see this and they go, “That can't possibly be the name of that painting,” because there's no shell or shingle in it. But it's actually, you can see how she worked from reality all the way to her abstractions.

Devin [to Karen]: Where would that artwork be housed right now? Is it at the O’Keeffe Museum?

Karen: No, the group of those, five of them are at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. And one, I think — I may be wrong, but it might be in St. Louis. I'm not positive.

Devin [to Karen]: You mentioned New Mexico, and by the early 1930s, O'Keeffe was spending more time there than she was in Lake George or New York City. Why was this, what was the attraction?

Karen: She was always a little bit fragile health-wise, mentally and physically, and oftentimes felt overwhelmed. Her relationship with Stieglitz was — I don't know if you'd say problematic. It certainly was all over the boards. He produced hundreds of photographs of her, both clothed and in the nude, that are just extraordinarily beautiful. He certainly was very important to her as a mentor, and promoting and selling her work And certainly exhibiting her work and making it well known. But part of the problem they had later in their marriage is that he had an affair, a well-known affair with Dorothy Norman, and that sent Georgia O'Keeffe into a bit of a health spin, I would say.

It was recommended to her that she go to New Mexico, and she traveled there with her friend, Rebecca Strand, who had been married to the photographer Paul Strand. Rebecca Strand is an artist in her own right. And she went and was invited by Mabel Dodge Luhan to spend time at Luhan’s salon out in Taos, and went back for summers after that, and had a studio there. And she was bowled over by the landscape. And that's something I think that's important in O’Keeffe, as far as landscapes are concerned, is she's very much very responsive to Lake George, for instance, which has a subtler color range — and then she goes to New Mexico where the sun is so bright, and she's wowed by the geology and the hills around where she's staying. She's a bit of a loner, she travels by jeep out into the countryside. She collects some of the bones that she paints, and sets them up against the landscapes and such. And she would settle in New Mexico after Stieglitz passed away in 1946. In fact, in 1946 was the last time she went to Lake George. And she brought Stieglitz’s ashes there. But she would settle in New Mexico and she had a home at Ghost Ranch and another she would eventually buy in Abiquiu.

Devin [to Karen]: So at this point she was world famous, we would say? Or getting there?

Karen: Certainly nationally famous. In the 1930s she had a brief stint of not painting at all, but she certainly was being shown in a lot of galleries, and then things pick up after that. She certainly is a well-known artist, and certainly Stieglitz promoted her until he died. And that was very important.

Lauren: Georgia O'Keeffe had a very long career that spanned several decades. She passed away in 1986, at the age of 98. But until the very end of her life, despite suffering from macular degeneration and the loss of her vision, she continued to create art. And she remains one of the most important American artists of the 20th Century today, which is why I think it's so great that Wiawaka chose to put these markers up. And I should say there are two markers. They're identical, but there's one on the road side and there's also one on the lake side, so that people that are boating along Lake George can actually see the marker from the water. It's really great that Wiawaka continues its legacy of a space for women to come and gather and better themselves, to give them respite and peace, to continue learning. They still invite artists to Wiawaka over the summer, so that they can continue to develop their skills, and they can work in a peaceful setting on Lake George. In addition, the Art Students League continues their mission that was started all the way back in 1875, as well.

Devin: Absolutely. The Art Students League is still functioning and flourishing in New York City, and artists are passing through teaching and learning. Again, there's no grades, there's no degrees, but they are learning and developing art that goes far beyond the boundaries of New York City and New York state. So it is very interesting that Wiawaka and the Art Students League, even the Trask property at Yaddo — all is still functioning today, still developing and meeting its mission. And Georgia O'Keeffe, again, famous for her artwork in New Mexico, and her flowers and various scenes from the desert, actually learned her craft and perfected her craft in Lake George, which remained vitally important to her throughout a very important part of her artistic development.

Karen: I think it gave her — when she had solitude — it gave her the chance to really focus on her art without distractions. And it also gave her subjects that she was able to explore in depth over and over again, that became kind of her calling card. Things that she discovered, and people would say, "That doesn't look like a flower.” And she said, “Well, have you ever really stopped to look carefully at a flower?” or what have you. And she was very much interested in nature, and how that natural world could be reflected in her art.

I think she's important as an artist, in terms of promoting a vision that's both personal and appeals to the viewer in a way that the viewer might not have thought about. Looking at these kinds of things like the geometry of an adobe, the cragginess of the hills out New Mexico, the subtlety of the colors of a Lake George day, and the effect of it on a barn. I think it introduces people into a way of looking at things that they might not normally have looked. And certainly the flowers and the fruits that she had painted, have done that for people. At the end of her life, she's fascinated by flying in planes and painting clouds, and as you see them it's fascinating from a plane, but still with that O'Keeffe sense of vision, abstraction, however you want to put it. And she's certainly interesting as one of the modernists, as a Stieglitz artist, perhaps — but she stands on her own. Frankly, she's important as a trailblazer at a time when women artists initially were not taken seriously. I mean, Stieglitz's comment about, "Finally a woman on paper," when he saw her work, was basically that you didn't see this kind of work being produced by women. And women could go to the Art Students League, which was wonderful. And certainly the Art Students League produced amazing women artists.

Doreen: We actually have a Georgia O'Keeffe Week during our summer months, and we commemorate Georgia through impersonators, through historians, through workshops and through music. And we're able to get a feel on what Georgia was thinking at the time. It's often funny to hear stories where some of these other artists — they were male and female — and she was told at some point that she was going to be a great art teacher some day. It's quite funny to hear her retort of, “I was not the art teacher, I became much more than that,” but there was that assumption, as a woman artist, that she would be a teacher someday. Which, she's a very strong artist with a very strong history of being independent and doing what she felt was the best for her painting and her inspiration.

We do have copies of paintings in Wakonda, in the sitting rooms, of works that have been inspired by Lake George. And we have the photographs in the marker to of her property. So it's a very nice way to summarize who we've had here, and how much we are celebrating her time at Wakonda. And it's a key central point during a tour, right next to Wakonda, so you can actually see the historical marker from the Pomeroy Foundation. And you can see the beautiful background of the lake behind it. So it's a very important piece of our history. You can find more information about us on our website at wiawaka.org, and our number is 518-668-9690.

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Guests: Mitchell Zuckoff, author of Lost in Shangri-La; Emma Sedore, Tioga County historian

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Further Reading:

Lost in Shangri-La by Mitchell Zuckoff

Women For Victory Vol 2: The Women’s Army Auxiliary Corps (WAAC) (American Servicewomen in World War II: History & Uniform Series, 2) by Katy Endruschat Goebel

The Ghost Mountain Boys: Their Epic March and the Terrifying Battle for New Guinea--The Forgotten War of the South Pacific by James Campbell

Teaching Resources:

Women in the Army: The Creation of the Women’s Auxiliary Corps

U.S. Army Center of Military History: “The Women’s Army Corps: A Commemoration of World War II Service” By Judith A. Bellafaire

PBS Learning Media: Corporal Margaret Hastings

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. In honor of Women's History Month, we have a fascinating account for you that includes tragedy, survival, ingenuity and an amazing plan of rescue. We begin the story in the village of Owego, which is located in Tioga County, in the Southern Tier region of New York. The William G. Pomeroy historic marker is located in front of 106 McMaster Street, and the text reads: “World War II. Home of Shangri-La WAC, Corporal Margaret J. Hastings, who survived 47 days in New Guinea jungle after May 13, 1945 plane crash. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2016.”

So there's quite a lot to unpack from those few lines of text. But let's start at the beginning. The sign is marking the former home of Corporal Margaret Hastings, so who was she? We spoke with Tioga County Historian Emma Sedore, who told us a little bit more about what Margaret's life was like growing up in Owego.

Emma: One day at the museum, this man comes in with a big scrapbook. He said he's a builder, and he was taking a barn down in Ithaca when he found the scrapbook – and it happened to be Margaret Hastings’ personal scrapbook. It had photographs and letters, and it had the telegram that went to her father when she went missing – oh my God, it was amazing. So I said to the director, “I'll take it! I'll index it!” And one day when I went into the museum, the director said to me, “This gentleman is gonna write a book about her.” I looked up, and there's this handsome guy at the copy machine. I said, “Oh!” and he introduced himself.

Mitchell: I’m Mitchell Zuckoff. I’m a former newspaper reporter for The Boston Globe, and I write narrative nonfiction. I came across a Chicago Tribune headline: “Glider Rescue in Shangri-La Delayed by Clouds.” It sounded to me like an April Fool's kind of headline – it’s just too crazy. It was a Chicago Tribune story by Walter Simmons, and he just started describing that there was this plane crash in the highlands of New Guinea, in this lost valley. And there were three American survivors, and one of them was a member of the Women’s Army Corps…One thing after another just made me stop everything and say, “How do I not know this?” For someone who focuses on World War II, how has no one ever written a book about this?

Emma: And I gave him all the information [I had]. I had a folder that probably weighed two pounds of all kinds of collections I had about Margaret Hastings.

She grew up in Owego. She graduated from Owego Free Academy, and then she was a private secretary for 10 long years. She never wanted to get married, she was very independent. She had two younger sisters – her mother died when she was a teenager, and so Margaret often was like a mother to her two sisters. I think she probably thought to herself, “Well, this is the same old, same old. How long am I gonna do it?” And probably when she turned 30, maybe like the rest of us, she said “I’ve got to do something different.” And that's when she joined the WACs in January 1944.

Devin: So what were the WACs? Well, they initially started as the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps in 1942, and they were really a branch of the U.S. Army that was dedicated to doing secretarial work and other kinds of logistics work at army bases throughout Europe and the Pacific. In 1943, they became an active duty unit of the army and changed their name to the Women's Army Corps. So the WACs, as they were famously known — somebody like Margaret, who was trained as a secretary, of course, her skill set would lead to be a secretary at the military base. And that's exactly what happened. She was stationed in a place called Hollandia, in New Guinea. This is 1945, this is actually after the European theater is essentially over, but the Pacific theater was still very active. New Guinea had been essentially cleared of Japanese forces, but there were still an estimated 10,000 of them living in the jungle, cut off from the rest of the Japanese army. So New Guinea was a very dangerous place.

Mitchell: Hollandia is now called Jayapura, and it's on the north coast of New Guinea. It was then and even to this day: it's a largely uncharted, deep rainforest, with enormous numbers of individual native tribes, many of whom, up till the 1940s, had never been contacted by anyone in what we would call the modern world. And life in Hollandia was really, really hard. I think it was spectacularly beautiful, but the conditions were really brutal. The Women's Army Corps members said the biggest variety was that there were five different kinds of jungle rot you could suffer from. They worked tremendously hard. They worked six-and-a-half or more days a week from the war effort. [There were] spiders the size of dinner plates, they said, and that was the easy part.

Devin: One of the ways the officers came up with to produce some sort of relaxation and entertainment was to travel to the recently rediscovered valley of Shangri-La.

Lauren: The word “Shangri-La,” it's probably something that we've heard, but maybe we don't know where it comes from. It actually comes from the book Lost Horizon, which was a novel written in 1933 by author James Hilton. Shangri-La actually refers to a fictional place talked about in this novel, and it's supposed to be kind of an idyllic place on earth. It's hidden away, it's untouched by time. So you can see the connection between the area where they were flying over, which was a deep valley, and why they would refer to it as Shangri-La.

Devin: Right, it was a valley about 150 miles south west of Hollandia. And recently, military personnel had flown over this section of mountains — which is why they didn't realize this valley existed, they normally avoided the mountains, but somehow they ended up flying through them — and there's this valley below. And the immediate unique part that these pilots saw: they saw many villages.

Mitchell: Stories grew up around them in Hollandia, when someone would fly over Shangri-La, the valley. And stories tend to have this quality, they keep getting bigger the more times they get retold. These were huge, just giants. They grew pigs the size of ponies, and they practice human sacrifice and were cannibals — and only that last part was true. They were cannibals, but other than that they were actually a fairly diminutive people. Their pigs were normal sized. But the idea was that these were incredibly fierce warriors…and actually, that was true also. It says something about human nature that I guess I'll leave to the anthropologists: despite living in a place where food was abundant, land was abundant, they had no disagreements about their belief system — the valley was in a constant state of warfare. They occupied themselves, in a way, by fighting.

Emma: And so naturally everybody's curiosity was peaked, and they wanted to go and see it too.

Lauren: So on a Sunday afternoon, May 13, 1945 — which actually happened to be Mother's Day — 24 servicemen and WACs got on a plane for a sightseeing mission into the Hidden Valley.

Mitchell: It was a pleasure trip. There was really nothing they were trying to accomplish, and I think that stuck with Margaret for the rest of her days.

Emma: It was a big C-47 transport. Margaret was sitting in the back of the plane, right next to soldier named Lieutenant John McCollom. It took 55 minutes to get to the top of that mountain, like about 10,000 feet up.

Devin: To make it to the valley, you basically had to fly between mountains and fly at a high enough altitude to actually be in the clouds, so you couldn't really see your way in. What we know is that Margaret's immediate boss, Colonel Peter Prossen, had flown to the valley before and knew the way in — but for whatever reason, he decided to hand over controls to his copilot, who had never flown into the valley.

Mitchell: He is talking with people and enjoying himself, and he left probably the hardest part of the flight to this much, much less experienced pilot, Major Nicholson. And even to this day, there are high winds, updrafts and downdrafts. It's a fairly narrow pass. It was it was recommended, in fact, when the first flights were going into the valleys for the sightseeing trips — they were adamant: “Don't have inexperienced pilots do this.” And that's exactly what happened.

Devin: John McCollom, who was watching out the windshield — he was in the back of the plane, but he could see what the pilot was seeing — [he saw what] was essentially a mountain coming towards them. Nicholson pulls back, tries to gain altitude enough to avoid it and go over the top of the mountain, but he was unable to, and they flew directly into the side of a mountain, in the middle of the jungle.

Emma: Everything was almost like instant, it just exploded into a ball of flames. John, by some miracle, he wasn't hurt at all. The back of the plane broke off, and he was able to crawl out, as did Margaret. And then there was another person that walked out, his name was Sergeant Kenneth Decker. Margaret was burned on her legs, very severely, and Decker had a wound on his head and was burned on his back. McCollom could hear voices in the plane, and so he went back to the plane, and he managed to bring two of the WACs out. But they were so badly burned, and where they were on that mountain, they said it rained all the time, especially at night. And so they covered themselves with tarps, and in the morning, when they got up, the girls had died. In fact, Margaret almost panicked, because she said, “Oh my God, oh my God, she's dead!” And what she had to do was, Margaret's shoes got blown off [during the crash], so she took the shoes off of her dead girlfriend, and she said she felt really terrible about it. I don't know what John did [with the bodies]. I think he just covered the bodies with a tarp.

Lauren: It was tragic for all of them, but John McCollom's twin brother actually was on the plane with him and died in the plane crash. So it's hard for us to imagine what he would have been going through, not only the loss of his twin brother, but now trying to figure out how they were going to survive in the middle of a densely packed jungle.

Devin: He's able to climb a tree and see that there is a clearing in the valley, and so he decides they need to make it there — because there's no hope of rescue or even being seen when you're in canopy jungle. And it's not an easy trip. Two of them are severely injured, Margaret so bad that she has to crawl at some points. They find a dry riverbed, and that's what they use to kind of get down this hill. At times though, there's water in that, as it rains, and so they end up being in water and mud. It takes them several days to get down to the clearing, and once they're there, that's just the beginning of the story.

Lauren: John's plan works: the rescue planes do come by, the survivors know that the plane has seen them because he tips his wing. And so at this point, they believe that there will be help coming back.

Devin: So what was this clearing that they found? Well, it was actually cultivated land by the natives who lived in the valley, the people of the Yali and Dani tribe. And they had a village very close by — in fact, it was a sweet potato patch that they were in. That first night that they were there, they are actually make contact with these people that they had never seen before.

Mitchell: The valley people were living, as I maybe mentioned earlier, really a Stone Age existence. They didn't have the wheel. The men wore hollowed out gourds to cover their genitals, and they used bows and arrows to fight each other, and the bows were unflecked. They were living, literally, in another millennia from the people who had just landed in their world.

I talked to old men and women who were children when this happened. Sadly, I imagine they're gone now, but 60 years later, these people, of course, still remembered. They recognized that these people — whatever they were, some of them didn't even recognize them truly as people — but they didn't look like their enemies. So the initial reaction was curiosity. Some of them thought they were gods or ghosts, because ghosts play an enormous part in the culture of the people of the valley. And so these light-skinned people wearing clothing were just such a mystery to them that they saw no immediate need to kill them. It's remarkable. The initial thought was, if you knew all about the warlike culture of the people, you would think they're going to slaughter these people — and they easily could have, especially when it was before the paratroopers arrived, and it was just Margaret, McCollom, and Decker.

Devin: So we have to realize it's almost impossible to get out of this valley without walking 150 miles through the jungle. And obviously, with two severely injured people, and even a healthy person, that is a daunting task. So how would a rescue mission take place? You can fly over the valley with aircraft, but there are no helicopters or anything that could land easily. It's a jungle — landing a full military aircraft, and the need for a runway and all of that, is just impossible. So the idea of rescue really comes down to one thing: parachuting people in.

Mitchell: Earl Walter and these Filipino American paratroopers were dropped in to protect the three and try to help them until they could figure out a plan to get out. I had the privilege of spending time with Earl at the end of his life, and Earl was amazing. He was this sort of strapping, 6-and-a-half-foot-tall guy who thought what he wanted was to get into battle, but his greatest mark in World War II was helping to keep alive these three plane crash survivors — along with the medics and the paratroopers he brought with him, this incredible group of Filipino American volunteers. They wanted to do anything possible, because both of their homelands had been invaded, and they wanted to be part of the war effort.

Lauren: By this point, news had gotten back to the U.S. about this horrific plane crash, and about the story of these three survivors that were stuck in this jungle.

Devin: The way this happened was there were two war correspondents, and they would take turns flying on supply missions to the valley to check in with [the survivors], and make sure everything was OK, and they would do that by radio. So the war correspondents road along, and they would take transcripts and ask questions of Margaret and the other people down there. And then they would go back and write up their stories and send them back to the U.S., and they were picked up by the Associated Press and in newspapers all around the country.

Lauren: There was a filmmaker named Alexander Cann, who was working for the Dutch government, who actually got up the courage to be dropped in on the ground with the survivors.

Emma: And he's twirling ‘round and ‘round, and they go, “Oh my God, he's gonna be killed.” Well, boom, he lands on the ground. They went over and they expected to see a dead man, but he wasn't dead. He was dead drunk. He had taken so much whiskey to have the nerve to jump out of the plane. He took a ton of pictures and stuff like that of the natives. And that movie, you could probably find that on your computer.

Alexander Cann's documentary on the crash: "Rescue from Shangri-La" is available for viewing on YouTube.

Lauren: I'm not sure how you make the decision, “OK, I'm going to bring my film equipment and I'm going to drop in, not knowing how you're going to ever get out — because at this point, they still don't know how they're getting anyone out.

Devin: So how did they become rescued? It's a plan that was developed in the military base at Hollandia by the officers there. And they were desperate, they thought of maybe sending troops over land, again, 150 miles through the jungle. They thought that is way too dangerous, we're gonna end up losing several more people if we do it that way. So they were really racking their brains. And one of them came up with the idea of a glider. This had been done successfully in other places and used significantly in Europe, gliders. They were towed in by aircraft and then released, and they could fly silently and go great distances, depending on the weather and things like that. And they could carry troops, they could carry supplies. These were large gliders, these are not small gliders. The good thing about a glider is it doesn't need an entire airstrip to be able to land and take off, like an aircraft would. But it still needs some sort of place to land — it can't land in a jungle tree or a tropical forest or something like that. But they saw enough potential within the valley that they thought they could land a glider, and then the aircraft would let it go and circle back, and fly around the valley to allow for the glider to get ready.

Emma: They had to walk from the Hidden Valley, where they were in the beginning, over to the glider site, which was 40 miles away. Margaret said it took them three days or four days to get there or something. And the first day or two, Margaret said they had to stop every half hour to rest. As time went by she grew stronger, so she could walk for an hour and a half without stopping. God bless her.

Lauren: They lined what would essentially be an airstrip with bright-colored parachutes so that the pilot had something to look for. And then they had two upright timbers, kind of like a goalpost in football, and they stretched a nylon rope across those two uprights that was then attached to the glider. So once the rope was in place, and the glider was packed, the tow plane would come back, fly down really low – and there was a hook underneath that plane, and the hook would take hold of the nylon rope and pull up, and the glider would be pulled with that rope.

Emma: And you will imagine a C-47 transport plane that close to your head? They were really scared, not just because of the plane itself, but the noise, the roar of the engine. By accident, one of the parachutes that were lined the runway got hooked to the bottom of the glider. So Margaret said, “Jeez, as we were in the glider, we could hear the slap, slap, slapping on the bottom of a glider.” It started to tear the material on the outside of the glider, and she said at one point [they] could see the ground. “Wouldn't it be something if after being in the jungle 47 days, we get killed being rescued? Being pulled up in the air?” But luckily, it held. I think it took more than an hour to get to the airport at Hollandia.

Devin: Now this is amazing in a lot of ways. First of all, it had never been done. Many things could have gone wrong. They could have crashed trying to get up through the mountains. They could have not had enough horsepower at that altitude to be able to take off once they did get a hold of the glider – if they got ahold of the glider. That was the other thing: could they actually connect the nylon rope to the grappling hook? So all these things could have gone wrong, but they didn't.

Lauren: And once they were back, of course, this story was already all over the press. Margaret had actually kept a journal while she was in the valley for 47 days. And she gave this to the newspapers, and her journal was serialized, and it became a really popular story in America.

Emma: Every time she turned around, they were taking her picture.

Mitchell: Margaret was hailed as the “Queen of Shangri-La” when she came back to the United States. They put her on a bond tour – she was still a member of the Women's Army Corps, and so she was paraded and she spoke raising money for the war effort. But she had very conflicted feelings about it, because as she was being celebrated, and as she was being put on display with camera people following her, she was really still dealing with the grief of the loss of all the people who had perished. Afterward, she returned to a very quiet life. She did marry, she had two children, and was an administrator at Griffiths Air Force Base. Once in a while reporters would reach out to her to ask her to tell the story, but she rarely revisited those days, except with her two fellow survivors – who also went on to successful, really good lives. John McCollom ended up becoming a surrogate father for his brother's daughter, who never met her father. She just been born when her father died, so John McCollom stepped up and was a surrogate dad to her and a surrogate grandfather to her children. And Decker went on to a career in Boeing and a successful marriage. And then finally, their last public appearance together was at a reunion of World War II glider pilots, where they were hailed and from by all accounts, were very, very happy to be reunited there.

Emma: That was the last time she saw them. She died four years later from cancer. She was 64 years old, in 1974.

Lauren: In her later years, Margaret was asked how she survived, and one of the things she said was, “When you have no choice, you have no fear.” You just do what has to be done, and it is amazing that they were able to set aside this traumatic event that they had just been through and figure out a way to survive. And with the help of the Army, they were actually able to have a successful rescue mission and go on with the rest of their lives. The story does deserve recognition, and I found it really fascinating. And it's so nice and refreshing to see a marker dedicated to a WAC like Margaret Hastings. It was such an amazing story.

Emma: During World War II, or any war, it's always about men, of course. So when you have a female soldier, that makes your ears perk up. It was a world famous tragedy, so it wasn't like just people in Owego knew Margaret – it was people all over the world. She had the foresight to record all of those things every day, she endured the physical pain of her burns. Her demeanor and her professionalism was noted by her commanding officers. They all wrote about how strong she was.

Mitchell: These three people showed tremendous fortitude, physical and emotional. They simply refused to surrender, and I think that's a remarkable part of their story.

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Guests: Stephanie Woodard, board member of the Rapp Road Historical Association; Dr. Jennifer Lemak, chief curator of the history collection at the New York State Museum, and author of Southern Life, Northern City: The History of Albany’s Rapp Road Community

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

Further reading:

Southern Life, Northern City: The History of Albany’s Rapp Road Community Jennifer A. Lemak (2008)

Black Protest and the Great Migration: A Brief History with DocumentsEric Arnesen (2002)

The Southern Diaspora: How the Great Migrations of Black and White Southerners Transformed AmericaJames N. Gregory (2005)

Teacher Resources:

PBS Teaching Guide: Exploring the Great Migration

National Archives- Harry S. Truman Library and Museum: The Great Migration Lesson Plan

Stanford University, Stanford History Education Group: Great Migration

National Geographic: The Great Migration- Educator Guide

Devin: Welcome to A New York Minute in History. I'm Devin Lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I'm Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. This episode is focusing on a marker which recognizes the history of a small African American community located within the city of Albany that came into existence as a direct result of the Great Migration. Now, this sign isn't a traditional blue-and-yellow historical marker. It is brown, and has white text on it, and it recognizes the inclusion of this community on the National Register of Historic Places. Located at 28 Rapp Road in the city of Albany, the text reads: “Rapp Road Community Historic District has been placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 2002 by the United States Department of the Interior. William G. Pomeroy Foundation, 2017.”

The marker we're focusing on today is part of a different grant program offered by the Pomeroy Foundation. When a structure or a district receives that designation, there's no allowance of any kind for signage or a plaque, so the Pomeroy Foundation offers a program where you can apply to them for a marker, in order to increase awareness of the historic place.

Getting back to the Rapp Road Community Historic District – as far as the location, it's located near Crossgates Mall. So it's near a lot of heavy commercial development today, but that wasn't the case back in the late 1920s and early 1930s, when the community was formed. The houses here have a different look than the rest of the nearby neighborhoods, and the general residential areas around it. So how, Devin, did the Rapp Road community get its start, and where did the founders of this community come from?

Devin: The genesis of the story begins in the Deep South. The vast majority of the residents that would go on to live at Rapp Road here in Albany came from a town called Shubuta, Mississippi. Shubuta, Mississippi is located in eastern Mississippi, formerly on the lands of the Choctaw Nation, which were open to settler colonists during the period of Indian removal in the 1830s. Shubuta developed a role as a trading post and market for the surrounding cotton plantations during the antebellum period, and the vast majority of African Americans living in and around the area were enslaved. In 1865, the town of Shubuta was incorporated, and in the post-Civil War years, slavery was replaced with the almost equally oppressive sharecropper system. Racism ruled the day during this era of Jim Crow in the South, and Blacks lacked opportunities for education and good-paying jobs. Almost everything was segregated, and even walking on the wrong side of the street in Mississippi could get a Black person lynched. This horrific racial terrorism, along with the disenfranchisement of Blacks by the state of Mississippi, and the rest of the Deep South, led many to flee the area for a better life and better opportunities. This mass movement of Blacks towards an opportunity for a better life was called the Great Migration.

Jennifer: Between 1910 and roughly 1970, over 7 million African Americans moved from the southern United States to the north and to the west – predominantly cities, but a lot of African Americans also moved to rural areas.

Devin: We spoke Dr. Jennifer Lemak, chief curator of the history collection at the New York State Museum.

Jennifer: Out of the 7 million African Americans that moved out of the South, 1.5 million of these African Americans moved to New York state. The majority of them moved to New York City because of the lure of Harlem, but thousands upon thousands moved all across New York state: to the Hudson Valley, because brickyards in the Hudson Valley were some of the first integrated places along the corridor; to Albany, Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo. There were lots of opportunities for employment, particularly during World War I and World War II, because factories had high manufacturing rates, and they needed people to come and fill these jobs. Places like Albany, they had huge increases, particularly around the wars, but also between 1950-1960. We see, you know, thousands upon thousands, the African American population almost doubling. A lot of people consider the Great Migration kind of being over after World War II, but there was a steady stream of migrants coming all the way through 1970.

Devin: The main force behind the settlement of Rapp Road was really Reverend Louis W. Parson and his wife Frances. Now, this is a very interesting story. They were both from Shubuta. They both left, originally trying to settle in Ohio, and things didn't work out there for them. And one day, the reverend looked to his wife and said, “Let's leave.” And they got in their car, and they drove – and they had no real idea where they were going, they just drove. And eventually they made their way into Albany, and they happened to be driving down Franklin Street when they noticed four women outside of a small church who were conducting a prayer meeting. And the Parsons stopped, and got out, and spoke to the women, and introduced themselves, and mentioned that he was a reverend. And the women said, “Oh, it's interesting that you stopped by now, because our church is trying to find a new reverend.” And throughout the rest of his life, when asked, “Why did you settle in Albany? What brought you to Albany?” his answer was, “God led me to Albany.” And that congregation was the First Church of God in Christ, which was established in Albany and is still here.

After founding their church, the Parsons returned to Shubuta to recruit residents there to come north and join them. We spoke with Stephanie Woodard from the Rapp Road Historical Association.

Stephanie: We have to think this is [the] Jim Crow [period], there was still lynchings in Mississippi. The people who left out of Shubuta were sharecroppers, so their parents would have been slaves. Some stayed in Mississippi after emancipation and became sharecroppers. So when they made the decision to leave to go to Albany, you know, it was a significant decision, because leaving a debt in Mississippi was a crime. And you could get killed for leaving that debt. So when Elder Parson would come, people who wanted to come to Albany, they just had to be ready. First come, first serve, you get in the car, he would take you up to Albany. They would leave at night, and they will leave on a Saturday night, because the sharecroppers were very religious people in the South. These people were very religious, so no work ever happened on Sunday. So if they left in the night, they could get to the Mason Dixon Line before day, [and] all day Sunday, no one would think anything, because there's no work being done on Sunday. Come Monday, they would be pretty much in Albany. So they would drive all night, and all day, until they came to Albany. They brought very little, maybe a suitcase, very little money, you know, maybe $1.75, or something to that effect.

And so this went on for a very long time, until Elder Parson was being threatened to be arrested. And when that happened, Jack Johnson – that’s my grandmother’s first cousin – he also helped. And he would come at night, I think he would honk the horn or do his light, and that meant first come, first serve, you get in the car. And it continued, it continued for several years, and that's how people came up to Albany. They couldn't take the train. Some people did take the train if they had the funds, but even taking the train was dangerous, because that was segregated as well. If a sharecropper knew the people who were operating train, you know, taking tickets and so forth, they could go down and say “Hey, if you see so-and-so getting on this train, call me, because they’re trying to get out of the South, and go north.” And even driving through the different towns is very dangerous. You can’t just stop wherever you want to stop and get food and go to the bathroom and get gas, you know, you had to have a specific area where you want to stop and get gas. So The Green Book, if anyone's ever seen the movie, is true to fact. People of color had to be very, very, very careful. And then, not everybody could come, it was a decision of who's going to go north, and who's going to stay here. And if you are going to stay, where are you gonna go? Because you can't live in the same house, where the sharecropper comes to get you and say, “You owe a debt.” So even though we talk about this all happening during the ‘40s, it’s very, very scary situation for them, and families were split up. But they all came together once they got settled in Albany.

I am actually a third generation of relatives who live out in Rapp Road. My grandparents, George and Dora Woodard came to Albany by Shubuta Mississippi and Mobile, Alabama. I would say it had to be in the ‘30s given my father's age. They came here because their cousins had settled here, and they were looking for a better educational system. Back in Shubuta, Mississippi, when my aunt got to high school, around high-school-age(ish) – they didn’t have a high school, and they had to go to a different county. I believe that's when my grandparents, particularly my grandmother, started looking at other states. So my grandfather had siblings in Alabama, and attended a Catholic school. But she still felt that there was a lot of segregation, and that they weren't getting the best education. So that's when they decided to move to Albany.

Once people started coming into Albany, they were living in the South End of Albany and [there was] a lot of crime, prostitution, gambling, and people wanted to go someplace else. And what Reverand Parson did was he also purchased land out where we now call Rapp Road. He would lend money, and allow people to purchase their land out there on Rapp Road, and they began to build their homes by hand. So they would come in the evening, after work or on Saturday, and build, and live in the South End of Albany until the property was complete. Other people out on Rapp Road would help, and some people came with a lot of skill. Like the McCann's came with the skill of masonry. Other families came with other types of skills. So when they came out of the South, no matter where they came from, they did bring a lot of skill with them. And that's why their property is still standing today, because they were able to use materials in order to create their homes and build their homes.

Lauren: The area of Rapp Road was much more like Shubuta than the South End of Albany, so it actually became a much better fit. They were able to practice gardening, they were able to carry on farming there. They talk about hunting. They had their own smokehouse, they would smoke their own meats. So it was important, I think, to those people coming up from Shubuta to have some continuity in their lives. Some of the things that they had done while they were living in Shubuta, they could continue to carry on while they were living in the north.

Devin: I think that's a great point, Lauren. The South End was an urban environment, and these were rural people. And they were looking for something more akin to the lands that they came from, where they could own their own land, and farm, and grow their own produce, and hunt, and things like that. But I think one of the things we really need to remember too, is although Albany and the north during this time was much less dangerous, there was still overt and institutional racism that took place. And we get the sense from the history of the community that one of the reasons they wanted to move out of the city was to be among themselves.

Jennifer: At least from my perspective, from talking to folks, life on Rap Road was pretty happy when they were on Rapp Road. The folks that lived out there were really in a close community, and there was not much around them – the Pine Bush was around, there were a few farms out that way, but the only folks that went out there, for the most part, were the ones that lived there, or if you were visiting family that lived there. I would guess that most of the challenges came when the community left Rapp Road and went into the city of Albany, and they would face discrimination in parts of their daily lives. But Elder Parson and Elder Johnson helped folks get jobs, got their kids into the right schools, and for the most part, they all became members of their specific congregations. Being on Rapp Road was such a special place, so up until a certain point, I think it was really, you know, they've called it the promised land.

Stephanie: It’s a place where my grandmother went a lot, and the name “promised land” is exactly what it was. There was no traffic, you know, you just run around and play and, you know, people just got along to help one another. Everything was communal. There was a prayer house out there, so sometimes they didn't even have to come into Albany to do their daily prayer or their weekly prayer. Jennifer's correct, it wasn't until you went into Albany [that they experienced racism]. You know, [Albany citizens] weren't too receiving of all these African American people coming from the South, like it would be a burden on the Albany economy. And also it became dicey once Washington Ave Extension was built, because no one really even knew people even lived out on that area of Washington Ave. We did have an incident where the children couldn't get to school, which would have been, I think, a school on Western Avenue. The Albany public school system would not provide bus transportation, because they said the road was too narrow to get the bus down Rapp Road and over to Western Avenue. So Wilborn Temple First Church of God in Christ purchased the bus to get the children to school. But other than that, exactly what Jennifer said. And I have recollections more of Shubuta, because my grandmother and grandfather used to take us down to Shubuta. And so when I got older, and started coming to the family reunions, like in high school, I remembered Shubuta, Mississippi, and the community was exactly the same. Everyone knew each other, had their own land or property. And as kids, there was no traffic. So we used to play and have a great time. And I just want to give a shout out to Jennifer, because she, too, has been to Shubuta. Right, Jennifer?

Jennifer: Yes, I have. One of the folks that I interviewed said that, you know, “God led Elder Parson to Albany.” And when you're out there, and you realize how similar Rapp Road looks to Shubuta, Mississippi – there are pine trees down in Shubuta, and kind of sandy soil, and that's very similar to what's out in the Pine Bush. You know, it's kind of otherworldly, that you're like, “How on earth did this happen?” You know, there's a connection.

Lauren: When they were welcomed into the community, these [other community] members had already been in their position, so they were more willing to help with food and shelter and getting a job. And it was almost like a communal living environment where they were helping each other out of a shared common past –

Devin: – that has its roots in Shubuta, for the most part. There were some folks who settled there who were not from Shubuta, but really the majority were from Shubuta, Mississippi, so they all knew each other, or at least knew of each other. You have to remember, Shubuta is a very small town. Today's population is about 650, I think back in the 1920s, it was maybe around 1,000. So it was never a big metropolis. It was truly a rural place [where] the families would have known each other, that people would have known each other. So, again, they have this deep-rooted community and network that really helped establish Rapp Road as a separate community within the boundaries of the city.

Lauren: According to the national register nomination, between 1942 and 1963, 23 African American families bought tracts of land from Parson’s original land purchases. Today, approximately six families with connections to the original landowners still live there today. I guess that leads us into today. What is the community life like now?

Devin: Now, one of the things we realized as we look at the history of Rapp Road, is that this kind of idyllic situation has been under threat – and continues to be under threat. Not so much by horrors of lynching or the Ku Klux Klan, but really by some of the commercial development that [Lauren] mentioned springing up around Rapp Road as the city boundaries expanded, and as the suburbs expanded. One of the things that really put pressure on Rapp Road was the Washington Avenue Extension that was built. And you mentioned Crossgates Mall, which was a major building project, and was really the pressure that [prompted] the Rapp Road Historical Association [to come into being]. And that's why they looked to place Rapp Road on the national register.

Jennifer: Getting the Rapp Road Community on the state and national register was particularly important for the community members out there, and specifically for Emma Dickson, who was worried that the Pyramid-Crossgates Corporation would come in and kind of take over the community. Starting in the 1990s, there was a plan to double the Crossgates Mall. They started buying up little pieces of Rapp Road property that came up for sale, even if they were between houses or between different lots. The fear of the community was that Crossgates was going to come in and ultimately connect all of those pieces of land – and out goes the Rapp Road folks and in comes roads leading into the mall, or out of the mall, or drainage, or whatever. So that is where I came in to the story. I needed to do a research project for a history class at the University of Albany, and Emma Dickson needed somebody to write the historic significance statement for the state register nomination. And it was kismet that we met and started working together. And so my initial research paper was a significance statement for the state board review.

Rapp Road was put on the state register in 2002, and then I think it went to the national register in 2003. The big deal with Rapp Road is that when it was designated it was still there. There have been other examples of Great Migration communities in New York state, not necessarily one that was originally rural, like Rapp Road, but neighborhoods in larger cities like Rochester and Buffalo, and even Harlem. But the fact that the community was still intact – is still intact, for the most part – [was significant]. It was unusual for African Americans to own property and own their own homes for most of the 20th century. The designation allows for some protections from outside development interests, and it allows for tax credits, if you do work on your home. From a private owner standpoint, a private homeowner can do absolutely anything they want with their home, even if it is part of a historic district.

I think it's important for everybody to realize that there are still families out on Rapp Road, and the work of the Rapp Road historical society is never ending, because of the sheer proximity of where the community is, in the middle of a lot of development. And I gotta give a lot of credit to Stephanie and her colleague, Beverley Bardequez, who has been tirelessly working to continue to document the history of the community, and kind of protect it from all of those outside interests in development. And they are both so committed to keeping Rapp Road intact, and keeping the history alive.

Stephanie: The Rapp Road Historical Association, we work on behalf of the Rapp Road Historical District. We provide support. These are very private families, and they are strong-willed and want to keep their homes, so they need help. We try to provide the help that we can. And then we of course, we work with people like Jennifer Lemak, like “Hey, what do we need to do? Can you help us, and to provide us with guidance?” Along the road, we've met different architects, historic architects who are always willing to help us. We also speak on behalf of the historical district, like now, when we've had the change with Crossgates Mall and Costco and the apartments – and we're involved in that whole process of approval. We’re really at the beck and call of the community in terms of what they want.

Every year we look forward to two family reunions. One with the McCalls, which is done on Orange Street in Albany, and the other was coming to Rapp Road. And we would have so much fun. We would always tell our friends, “You know, they shut down the street, when we have our family reunions, they shut it down.” It’s just, it's always a place to learn more about your family, and who your family is.

Devin: Putting a community like that on the National Register of Historic Places was a complex endeavor. We have to remember that during the early 2000s, and before, many of the properties that were placed on the national register were attractive houses, historically important because they were the site of something to do with a Founding Father or some other community leader. They weren't necessarily an essentially working class neighborhood. I think, also, it's important, as Stephanie Woodard noted, that even if the families aren't there anymore, many of the original houses are there. And these houses were hand built. These people were skilled.

Lauren: And although it's a smaller number of families, it seems like the feeling of community still exists. The fact that they're still holding family reunions today speaks to the fact that they're hanging on to their heritage, and trying to continue the legacy of the original people from Shubuta, Mississippi who came here to try to make their own community and make a better life for themselves.

Stephanie: I tell my friends, when you're coming out of Crossgates, you know, just take a slow ride through the Rapp Road. You know, just a nice little ride, and think about the history. Think about their families, think about where people came from. Think about how it's so important to preserve natural history, and how important it is to preserve African American history, because there's not a lot of national designations related to African American history. And we are so unique, that the designation was not about a pretty building. It's really about people who came from the South at a dire need, and said, “I'm going to go to Albany, New York and build a better life, not only for myself, but also for my family, and for my legacy.” And when I ride through Rapp Road, that's what I think about all the time – what we've been through, and how far we've come to this one community, just this one particular community.

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is "Begrudge" by Darby.

In the first episode of our new season, Devin and Lauren look to a William G. Pomeroy marker in Westchester County to learn about American patriot Thomas Paine, his influence on the American and French Revolutions — and just how and why his body went missing. Where is Thomas Paine today?

Marker: Thomas Paine, New Rochelle, Westchester County, NY

Guests: Dr. Nora Slonimsky and Dr. Michael Crowder of the Institute for Thomas Paine Studies at Iona College

A New York Minute In History is a production of the New York State Museum, WAMC, and Archivist Media, with support from the William G. Pomeroy Foundation. This episode was produced by Jesse King. Our theme is “Begrudge” by Darby.

Further Reading:

Tom Paine and Revolutionary America, Eric Foner (1976)

The Thomas Paine Reader, Thomas Paine, with an introduction by Michael Foot and Isaac Kramnick (1987)

Thomas Paine: Enlightenment, Revolution, and the Birth of Modern Nations, Craig Nelson (2007)

Teacher Resources:

PBS Teaching Guide: Thomas Paine: Writer and Revolutionary

C-SPAN Classroom: Lesson Plan: Thomas Paine and Common Sense

National Humanities Center: America in Class: Thomas Paine’s Common Sense, 1776

Follow Along

Devin: Welcome to a new season of A New York Minute in History. I’m Devin lander, the New York state historian.

Lauren: And I’m Lauren Roberts, the historian for Saratoga County. Today we start our new season with a William G. Pomeroy historic marker located in the city of New Rochelle in Westchester County. The title of the marker is “Thomas Paine,” and the text reads: “Author of Common Sense and The American Crisis. 1784, New York state gave him a farm on this site seized from a loyalist. Paine buried here until 1819. William G Pomeroy Foundation, 2018.”

Common Sense

Devin: I don’t know if you’re like me, Lauren, but Thomas Paine is a name that I’ve heard a lot of over the years, certainly studying history – but I didn’t necessarily know that much about him. His biography, kind of who he was, what he did. I knew he was an author during the Revolution. I know he was a revolutionary. But beyond that, I didn’t know much about him until we started to dive into this episode. What I found out was that he was born in England, and lived there for the first 37 years of his life. In England, he was not very successful. In fact, he kind of had a tragic life: he lost a wife and child during childbirth, he was an unsuccessful corset maker, which is what his father’s occupation was. He was an unsuccessful tobacco shop owner, briefly a school teacher, a tax collector, and even more briefly, a privateer. But all of these things were not successful, and he didn’t certainly find riches doing any of these things.

But he did become politically active while living in England, and probably, at least from my perspective, the most important thing he did was chance into meeting Benjamin Franklin when he was on one of his trips to England, and the two became friends. Franklin actually suggested that Thomas Paine move to America and start a school – advice that he followed in 1774, though the school never materialized. Instead, due to his association with Franklin and his own interest in politics, Paine became involved in the revolutionary movement underway at the time. It could be argued that Paine was the main PR person for the independence movement to break away from Great Britain.

Lauren: I think that’s probably what most people know best about Paine. That’s certainly what I knew about before we started researching for this podcast – that he was the author of Common Sense, undoubtedly, the most famous pamphlet of the Revolution.

Devin: Absolutely. In fact, it was published in 1776, so the year that Revolution began, and in that Paine argued for independence and a republican form of government. So he was talking about not only breaking away from Great Britain, but instituting a form of government in which the people make the decisions, unlike a monarchy or any other kind of feudal system. And the real important thing, I think, about Common Sense and really all of his writings, is that he wrote it for a more general audience. It wasn’t a pamphlet for the elites written by the elites. It was written by somebody who really had his thumb on the pulse of the average person, the average farmer, the average merchant, the average person living in any of the 13 original colonies. And it was an immediate success. Some historians argue that it was the most popular work written in the 18th century. It’s hard to know the exact numbers that it sold, but we do know it was a massive success. And actually, Paine donated all of the proceeds from the sale of Common Sense to the Continental Army during the Revolution.

Lauren: So during the Revolution, Paine was a volunteer assistant to General Nathaniel Greene, though he didn’t earn a claim as a soldier. He was also famous as the author of The American Crisis, which was a series of 16 essays written over the length of the American Revolution, the first of which was reportedly read aloud to the troops at Valley Forge at the request of General Washington. And that first essay is probably the most recognizable to us today. It starts out with that famous quote, “These are the times that try men’s souls.”

Devin: In acknowledgement of his important contribution to the revolutionary effort, the New York state Legislature gave Paine a farm in New Rochelle that had been seized from a loyalist – thus the location of the Pomeroy marker.

Lauren: Though it was given to him in 1784, he really didn’t spend much time there, because he had an important role to play in other revolutions that were going on. And we spoke to two experts from the Institute for Thomas Paine Studies at Iona College who told us more about the next phase of Thomas Paine’s life.

Nora: My name is Nora Slonimsky, and Gardiner Assistant Professor of History at Iona College, where I also serve as the director for the Institute for Thomas Paine Studies, ITPS for short.

Michael: My name is Dr. Michael Crowder. I have a PhD in American history, and then I was lucky enough to begin working with the Institute for Thomas Paine Studies. And I’m now working on a new Paine biography, appropriately.

So Paine didn’t spend very much time at all [at the cottage], and in fact, was absent from the property from 1787 until 1805, when he permanently moved to the property. So for a 31-year period, Paine didn’t see it, because he was in Europe for the vast majority of that time period, first in England, and then in France.

Nora: Paine was not directly involved in the French Revolution until really 1791. And at this point, this was during that pivot, between what we might say is the first phase of the French Revolution, which was a reform for a constitutional monarchy, and the second phase of the French Revolution, which is the first republic. Paine did call for the abolition of the monarchy – he was very much a lowercase “r” republican, so he really did believe in as close to democratic rule as you could possibly get. And he was granted French citizenship and elected to the governing bodies of France at this period, but he did sort of break from what we might say the more radical group of the French Revolution in that, while he did believe that King Louie XVI should be removed from power – and that it was fine to put him on trial and find him guilty – he did oppose execution. He did oppose what ultimately happened to Louis and his family. And as a result, he ultimately found himself incarcerated. But he is ultimately released by late 1794.

He really grapples in this period, which is when you see the third phase of the French Revolution, or the rise of the Thermidors, Thermidorians. You see him really grappling with the realities of the Reign of Terror. Paine was indeed a radical, but he was not an unreasonable radical. He was willing to make compromise, he did not say that there should be no practical governing structures. And you see this particularly in his dedication, for example, of his 1797 pamphlet, Agrarian Justice, where he dedicates it to the government that comes after the republic, the directory.

So he’s not totally politically out of touch, but he does fall into a period of ill health. At this point, by the late 1790s, he is not in excellent health, and he does find himself in pretty hot water in England, because the work that he is doing, the publications he’s doing, are very, very pro-revolution. He basically says that Britain should become a republic as well. And he does advocate for united Irishmen to rebel. And he ultimately does return to America. Shortly after Napoleon’s rise, he does become somewhat disenchanted or dissatisfied with the French Revolution. He does ultimately critique Napoleon as well, but he waits ‘till he’s out of Europe before he does that. And that, I think, in so many words, really is the timeline of Paine’s relationship with the French Revolution. He maintained throughout his life its importance and its value. He is in no way as critical, it’s worth noting, of the different stages of the French Revolution, than he is, in some respects, to a perceived lack of follow-through of the more radical potentials of the American Revolution, or the failure of revolution to take root in England. He’s far more critical of those contexts than he is of France, but he is critical.

Devin (to Nora): How much do you believe his kind of fall from public grace, by the time he returned from France, had to do with his atheistic viewpoints? I know, of course, Teddy Roosevelt famously called him the “[filthy] little atheist” or something like that in the late 19th, early 20th Century. So I’m just interested in especially The Age of Reason, which was another popular pamphlet that he wrote after the American Revolution that really challenged organized religion.

Nora: So public opinion is a tricky thing. My understanding, and my read – and I am grateful to colleagues at the ITPS for sharing their knowledge with me – but it seems that Paine was not an atheist, that Paine was a spiritual person, that did have a belief in God. But it did not fit in with the belief system of many of his friends foes, believed, and that is why The Age of Reason, yet another term for what we now call The Age of Revolutions, or The Age of Empires, [is] where he doesn’t really fit.

By the time that Paine returns to the United States, the landscape is very different. This is no longer a revolutionary moment. In fact, the Constitution has been in place for over 10 years, the Federalist Party, or Federalist Coalition, depending on how you view that period, had been successful for the first two elections. And now another political coalition, the Democratic-Republicans had residential power under Thomas Jefferson. There had been government bureaucracy, there was a Supreme Court, there was a Congress, there was taxes. And the kind of energy, for lack of a better word, you might want when you’re trying to stir people to revolution is probably going to be a pretty different energy than you’re going to want around when you’re trying to get people to respect their government institutions, pay attention to the laws, and really instill a sense of civic duty to the relatively newly-formed federal government. Figures like Alexander Hamilton, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson – across the political spectrum mind you, people from very different views on the major issues of the day, from slavery, to diplomacy, to taxation policies, and so on and so forth – there was a consensus that that type of revolutionary rhetoric was not necessarily as wanted. I wouldn’t go as far as to say he was unwelcome, but in some respects, this is why Paine developed many enemies. His radicalism – things like today, like universal basic income, or other forms of intense economic reform that he articulates in his pamphlet Agrarian Justice, his view of a secular world. If you’re looking for revolution, Paine is the person you call. Paine is the person you hope gets on Twitter. Paine is the person you want on your podcast. But if you are trying to create a very stable, authoritative governing structure, he might not be the person whose style you want.

Michael: He spent a significant amount of time in the very last years of his life at the cottage, just at a moment when he began to really wind down in terms of his writing. I wouldn’t say [his] retirement, because he never stopped writing, but there’s a noticeable decline in his writings, specially published writings [by that point]. So he only lived there for the very end of his life. He died in 1809. So it was his last resting place, I guess is the best way to put it.

Devin (to Lauren): So Lauren, the Pomeroy marker says that Thomas Paine was buried in that spot [at the cottage] until 1819. So he’s not there right now?

Lauren: No. Well, maybe, but certainly his complete remains are not there. And it’s an interesting story about somebody who dug him up in the middle of the night and shipped him to England.

Devin: I think this is the most fascinating part of this whole story. Obviously, the life and work of Thomas Paine is important, but understanding that he’s actually not there, and he’s not buried there because somebody came and stole his body, is really fascinating to me. And Dr. Michael Crowder, he told us a story that begins with local Quakers denying Paine’s burial request, and ends with a man named William Cobbett literally robbing his grave.

Michael: So he died in Greenwich Village, and just before his death, in his final will, he asked that the Quaker meetinghouse in Westchester allow him to be buried in their burying ground, on the basis that his father had been a Quaker. Thomas Paine had partially been raised as a Quaker. The Quaker meeting rejected this request, primarily because he’d written Age of Reason. In his will, there were no other stipulations except that, if he couldn’t be buried in a Quaker burial ground, he wanted to be buried on his property. And he was taken two days later and buried [there].

And because he was buried so quickly, there was very little time for the media to report upon his death, giving the impression that he died and nobody cared, when in reality, just given the obstacles to communication in the early 19th Century, his death was reported about a month after he was buried. And then there were much more voluminous commentary, both positive and negative. There was definitely interest in his death.

So William Cobbett is fascinating. He is an English writer-turned-politician who lived in the United States in the 1790s. In fact, he lived in Philadelphia, having emigrated from England, where he wrote as a partisan Federalist journalist and newspaper editor. He wrote under a pseudonym called “Pierre Porcupine,” in which, amongst many other people, he attacked Thomas Paine. And at some point, right around Paine’s death. So right around 1808-1809, Cabot realized that Thomas Paine, the person that he mercilessly attacked a decade to 15 years before, should actually be somebody that is celebrated and venerated. And he decided in the middle of the 1810s that what he needed to do was travel to New Rochelle to Thomas Paine’s farm, to dig up his bones so that they could be transported back to England, so that they could be properly buried, and a monument to Thomas Paine constructed in England to celebrate his influence, and his democratic principles. So William Cobbett traveled in 1819, and in the middle of the night, had a couple of hired laborers dig up Thomas Paine’s grave, store his bones in bags and then immediately go back to New York City and take the first boat out to England.

Devin: William Cobbett, he wrote about Thomas Paine after the publication of The Age of Reason, saying, “How Tom gets his living now, or what brothel he inhabits, I know not, nor does it much signify to anybody. He has done all the mischief he can in the world, and whether his carcass is at last to be suffered to rot on the earth, or to be dried in the air, is a very little consequence.” Again, he wrote this before Thomas Paine died, and then less than 10 years later, he’s robbing the remains of Thomas Paine, bringing them to England, thinking that they will help incite a revolution there.

One of the things that I find interesting is some of the ideas that William Cobbett had for raising the funds to build this memorial that he was hoping to build in England. And this is a quote from William Cobbett himself: “The hair of Thomas Paine’s head would be a treasure to the possessor, and this hair is in my possession. I intend to have it put into gold rings, and to sell them at a guinea apiece beyond the cost of the gold and the workmanship. These guineas shall be employed with whatever shall be raised by Paine himself in the erection of a monument to his memory. This shall take place when 20 wagonloads of flowers can be brought to strew the road before his hearse. It is my intention, when the rings are made, to have the workmen with me to give out the hair, and to see it put in myself. Then to write in my own hand a certificate on parchment, and to deliver it with each ring. This will be another pretty good test whether the remains of the great man be despised or not.”

Lauren: And as far as we know, he never went through with that, right?

Devin: As far as we know, he never was able to go through that.

Lauren: And he basically puts the bones in a box in his basement.

Devin: Right, where they remain until he passes away, and his heirs are left in debt. And we’re not really sure what happened to the remains of Thomas Paine, although there’s some evidence that they’re dispersed among friends and or family members of Cobbett. There’s also the suggestion that at least part of the remains are at the British Museum. There’s no way to really tell, even with modern testing today, because Thomas Paine was an only child who had no children. So having a direct descendant through DNA analysis would be difficult.

Lauren: What actually happens is that, fast forward to 1905, there actually was a grand monument erected in the memory of Thomas Paine – back in New Rochelle. And part of the application for the William G. Pomeroy historic marker includes a newspaper article that was printed about the dedication of the monument in 1905. And it gives some interesting clues about how the people of New Rochelle felt: there were several groups that were there to celebrate, including the sons of the American Revolution and school children. There were cannon salutes and patriotic songs being played – although there is a note that some of the decorations were lacking, because the people of New Rochelle were good Christians, and they still were a little bitter about the sentiments put forward in Paine’s Age of Reason.

Devin: It’s a fascinating article, Lauren, from the New York Times in 1905. And it says: “The Paine monument at last finds a home, accepted by New Rochelle with a preacher’s benediction. Town refuses to decorate, but turns out for the exercises. Part of the patriot’s brain to rest under the shaft.”

Lauren: Part of the brain?

Devin: That’s what it says. It says a small piece of what is purported to be Thomas Paine’s brain was placed under the monument when it was erected, and remains there to this day. Again, I have no idea how they know that it was Thomas Paine’s brain. But that is what they’re saying in this article. They said it resembled a small piece of dried putty.

Lauren: Interesting.

A monument to Thomas Paine was erected in New Rochelle in 1905.

Devin: All of this shouldn’t detract from the fact that Thomas Paine was an important figure during the American Revolution, and played a hugely important role in disseminating the ideals of the Revolution to the average person who was alive during that time. It was a fantastical story, it was a lot of fun for me to research, but it was also an important opportunity for us to pay respects and give relevance to Thomas Paine himself.

Lauren: I think it’s important for us to remember that there’s so much mythology built up around the Founding Fathers that we tend to forget that they had personal lives, that they had shortcomings, that they had successes and failures, and that not everyone in their lives are going to continue in popularity. [Thomas Paine] comes from obscurity in England, he happens to meet Ben Franklin, he goes on to write the most significant pamphlet of propaganda during the American Revolution, which really convinces a lot of people that we need to call for independence from Britain. And then he kind of falls out of popularity for other beliefs that he has…But then you see that Iona College has an entire institute dedicated to the study of Thomas Paine. I wonder how many other radical players in the Revolution can claim that.

Devin: It’s weird, he seems to ebb and flow, like his popularity.

Lauren: Maybe his radicalism itself is what makes him such an interesting person. A lot of other major players in the Revolution seem to have a little bit more of an even keel – not that they weren’t radical, definitely they were all radical for their revolutionary beliefs, but Paine seems to have been over the top, and then he never really scales back. So maybe that has something to do with [it]. You can attach him to certain periods in our history where his ideas really can take hold.

Nora: What’s been really interesting to notice and to observe over the last several years, is really an increased interest in Paine. Paine is definitely someone [people have] gotten a little bit more serious about, and yet that curiosity really does cross the entire political spectrum. And it’s always tricky, right? Because the political spectrum of the late 18th Century is, of course, going to be quite different than the political spectrum today. And this is where it’s really important, I think, to both really understand what is distinct, and the real context of Paine in his in his worlds, right? What was very unique to that time, as well as what exactly that can tell us about our present day, and the connections that that has to our present day. So that’s just been really interesting to see how people find multiple different things about Paine to connect to.

The ITPS was founded at Iona College in 2011, really, to support and preserve the archival collection of the Thomas Paine National Historical Association, or the TPMHA. There’s a lot of acronyms in the world of Paine, so I do apologize to any listeners for that. But the TPMHA is still an organization that’s around today. It has a really, really fascinating history. You have really incredible artifacts. And then you have items from the antebellum period where Paine’s legacy begins to be disputed in the 1820s and 1830s. And then you have the history of the TPMHA itself: its minutes, its records, its correspondence. The understandings and arguments about Paine are very much about Paine, of course, but they’re also about the bigger period. These figures and these historical events are very much about their own time, but how we remember them, and how we think about them, tells us a lot about our present moments as well.

Michael: The cottage sustained a significant amount of damage when Hurricane Ida came through the New York City / Westchester / Connecticut region, and it had just underwent a significant remodeling in the two years prior. In 2018-2019, and into 2020, there was a significant amount of work put into the cottage by the Huguenot & New Rochelle Historical [Association], the local historical society which owns it, to bring it back to a state that would most closely approximate the state in which Thomas Paine lived in the cottage. They did a wonderful job, and they’re working to recover, but they are accepting funds from anybody who’s interested in donating because of the damage. They have many different kinds of public programming that’s intended to engage the community – not just about Thomas Paine, although of course, he’s significant, but just to engage the history of the Revolutionary era and the early republic more broadly.

Devin: Thank you for listening to the first episode of our new season of A New York Minute in History.

Lauren: This podcast is a production of WAMC Northeast Public Radio, the New York State Museum, and Archivist Media, with support by the William G. Pomeroy Foundation.

Devin: Our producer is Jesse King. I’m Devin Lander.

Lauren: And I’m Lauren Roberts.

Until next time, Excelsior.

(Until next time, America.)

On this episode, Devin and Lauren tackle all of New York’s historical markers at once — sort of. Devin and Lauren discuss how the state’s historical marker program got started, what happened to it, and how communities can apply for a marker today. As an added bonus, Devin and Lauren speak with Susan Hughes of the William G. Pomeroy Foundation about the foundation’s new “Hungry for History” grant program — and they also speak with Bill Pomeroy himself, about his interest in history and some of his favorite markers.

In this episode, Devin and Lauren discuss the “Burned Over District,” and how upstate New York became a “cauldron” of emergent religions and alternative communities during the 19th century. How did the Burned Over District collide with state and national history? And what role did the Erie Canal play in establishing it? Devin and Lauren also discuss how these new religions contributed to the creation of alternative communities, such as the Ebenezers and the Oneida Community, and how this predication for communal living was revisited in New York during the 1960s.

This episode delves into the public health industry that emerged in New York in the 19th Century. As the understanding of medicine and health evolved over time, there were many communities in New York state whose location was thought to have healing properties, most often because of the existence of springs or some other perceived environmental benefit. The most famous is Saratoga Springs, but there are others around the state, including Pitcher Springs in Chenango County. These locations flourished in the 19th Century, as people began to look to them not only as places of healing, but as places of high society and entertainment.

Devin and Lauren dive into the history of Timbuctoo, an African American settlement founded by philanthropist Gerrit Smith in response to an 1846 law requiring all Black men to own $250 worth of property in order to vote in New York state. To counter this racist policy, Smith decided to give away 120,000 acres of land to 3,000 free, Black New Yorkers, hoping to enable them to move out of cities and work the land to its required value. Lyman Epps and other Black pioneers relocated to the wilderness near Lake Placid, New York — as did abolitionist John Brown, who based his family in North Elba to assist the Black pioneers in their farming.

In this episode, Devin and Lauren research the life of Audrey Munson, America’s first supermodel. Born in upstate New York, Munson was one of the most famous models of the early 20th Century, and posed for the top American artists in the Beaux Arts movement. Sculptures based on Munson dot the landscape of New York City, and are held in museums around the country. She was also one of the first American actresses to pose nude in a major motion picture. Once called “Miss Manhattan,” Munson’s life would take a tragic turn by the age of 40. In 2015, the William G. Pomeroy Foundation erected a historical marker near her final resting place in New Haven, New York.

In this episode, Devin and Lauren investigate the invasions of Canada by the Fenian Brotherhood, a group of Irish Nationalists intent of freeing Ireland from British control. These invasions were launched from several locations in upstate New York, including the site of a recently-erected William G. Pomeroy Foundation marker in the Franklin County town of Constable.