Micha-El shares his background growing up in suburban New York in a non-religious Jewish family, where institutional religion felt empty and unengaging. During his time at Cornell University in 1969, amid political and social upheaval, he experienced an existential crisis. Feeling disillusioned with both activism and academic structures, he was directed to the American Brahmin Bookstore in Ithaca, associated with Anthony Damiani. There he encountered a comparative study of spiritual traditions, including Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufism, and Western mystical thought, all presented in a unified way.

Through Damiani, Micha-El eventually encountered Paul Brunton and later met him personally several times in Switzerland and the United States. Brunton is described as someone who studied and synthesized many traditions and teachers, producing a body of work that includes A Search in Secret India and later The Notebooks of Paul Brunton, a large compilation of teachings organized into thematic categories.

Micha-El emphasizes Brunton’s approach as both experiential and investigative. Brunton did not present himself as a guru but as a researcher of consciousness. His work draws from direct encounters with teachers, texts, and his own inner experience. He was also interested in integrating scientific inquiry with mystical insight, emphasizing a “scientific attitude” toward spiritual experience.

A central teaching discussed is Brunton’s idea of “the quest,” which includes four aims: knowing the self, knowing the higher self (or Overself), knowing the universe, and understanding one’s relation to the universe. This framework combines inner realization with understanding of the external world, including modern science, rather than rejecting it.

The conversation also covers Brunton’s distinctions between different levels of realization, including temporary “glimpses,” personal illumination, and what he called cosmic illumination. Micha-El explains that glimpses are often the initial experiences that draw people into spiritual seeking, but they are not the final stage.

Meditation is described as a movement beyond thought into a deeper inner emptiness where thoughts cease. In this state, Brunton suggests, communication can occur at a subtler level than language or intellect. Henry connects this to contemplative practices in Sufism and Christianity, while Mikael relates it to similar ideas in Buddhism and Vedanta.

A significant theme is the role of teachers. Brunton acknowledged that qualified teachers are rare but valuable, yet he did not require students to depend on one. Instead, he emphasized what he called an independent path, where individuals rely on inner guidance and serious study. Books, in this sense, can function as direct transmissions when deeply engaged.

The discussion also addresses Brunton’s skepticism toward spiritual organizations. He observed that many become entangled in ego, power, and institutional issues. While organizations may preserve teachings, he did not see them as essential for spiritual realization.

Both Henry and Micha-El reflect on the difficulty of discerning authentic teachers, noting that seekers must rely on experience, patience, and discernment rather than idealized expectations. They also discuss Brunton’s broader view of human development, moving from materialism to religion, then mysticism, and finally philosophy as a synthesis of intuition and intellect.

The episode closes with reflections on Brunton’s vision of a decentralized spiritual transmission: individuals working inwardly, often in isolation, yet forming a subtle collective of understanding through shared inquiry and practice.

Andy, drawing from his 12-step recovery background, describes spirituality as a relationship with a higher power understood personally, sharing that his connection takes shape through Christian symbolism rooted in his upbringing. He emphasizes that this framework is not exclusive, but a language through which he experiences alignment, meaning, and a sense that everything in existence is placed in right relationship. Central to his path is humility—learning to recognize value in all people and to move beyond ego-driven identity.

The conversation expands into spiritual awakening as both gradual and sudden, drawing on William James’ distinction between 'educational' awakenings and sudden insight, with participants noting that suffering, hindsight, and breakthrough moments all contribute to a growing awareness of interconnectedness.

Themes of non-separation emerge across traditions, including Zen and Advaita Vedanta, where suffering is understood as rooted in the illusion of a separate self, and healing arises through re-experiencing unity—both psychologically and physically in the body.

Humility as a balance between recognizing higher forces and maintaining personal agency

The idea that all relationships—including with the divine—are reciprocal rather than one-directional

A Sufi perspective, influenced by Inayat Khan, describing the universe as moving toward love, harmony, and beauty

The concept of a 'pull of the future' shaping evolution alongside past causes

Parallels to scientific ideas of uncertainty and unfolding potential within the universe

Joel offers a complementary perspective on karma, rooted in mystical traditions, emphasizing that every thought, action, and intention generates corresponding effects that return 'measure for measure,' shaping future experience. He frames reality as an interplay between seen and unseen dimensions, where intentionality—especially loving-kindness—acts as a generative force.

The panel reflects on the interplay of karma, grace, randomness, and free will, suggesting that human life unfolds within a dynamic system of influence and choice, where individuals both shape and are shaped by experience.

Closing reflections highlight the importance of shared inquiry and spiritual community, with participants emphasizing that these conversations create space for meaningful exploration beyond solitary practice.

The discussion concludes with a Zen teaching offered by Joel, pointing to the enduring challenge of ethical living—avoiding harm and cultivating virtue—not as abstract ideals, but as practices that must be lived moment to moment.

Part 1 Ben, a therapist and former addiction counselor, reflects on his journey through trauma, psychosis, and recovery, including an ego death experience that reframed his life through the lens of rebirth. He describes moving from feeling unsafe in his body to cultivating grounding through breath and meditation.

Andrew, trained in physics, shares his experiences with bipolar disorder, atheism, and long-term substance use, ultimately finding recovery and a return to a sense of inner peace, identifying addiction as an attempt to fill a deeper spiritual void.

Rich Grego, a philosopher and Professor of religion and metaphysics, introduces his scholarly background while emphasizing his continued existential questioning, highlighting the gap between intellectual understanding and lived spiritual experience.

Henry Cretella, a psychiatrist influenced by Inayat Khan, describes a syncretic approach to spirituality, drawing from multiple traditions while seeking a unifying thread, and challenges the idea of 'pure' traditions by pointing to nature as inherently evolving and interconnected.

Joel builds on this by referencing Eihei Dogen’s idea of 'many languages, one tongue,' suggesting that different traditions express a shared source, and introduces the central inquiry 'What am I?' as a core spiritual question.

The discussion explores addiction as existential longing, reframing the restless search for meaning as a potential catalyst for transformation, and examines the relationship between humans and nature, questioning whether any true separation exists.

Joel emphasizes language as a uniquely human capacity that shapes reality, while Henry dissolves the distinction between humans and nature, asserting that all phenomena arise from the same natural processes.

Themes of unity and non-dual awareness emerge, with connection understood as internal rather than dependent on external conditions, and Ben reflecting that true connection can be found even in solitude.

Joel introduces the metaphor of the world as a garden, drawing on teachings associated with Menachem Mendel Schneerson, describing humans as caretakers responsible for cultivating and tending both inner and outer life.

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

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Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom.

Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace.

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Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross-cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

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Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.  

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Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.d

Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish then introduces himself and segways into the realities of his experiences growing up in Gaza, the Jabalia Camp, what he has seen and witnessed, the loss of his three daugthers and niece in 2009 from an Israeli tank shell (i.e., I Shall Not Hate) and his pride in his Palestinan heritage, family, and community.

He shares his deep belief and conviction 'nothing is impossible in life.' He also expresses:

• Medicine as a great human equalizer
• Toward human rights, once people step away from the border of the hospitals, they become categorized and labeled 'Palestinian' or 'Israeli'
• If you believe in Humanity, we must all stand for all
• Human Rights is deeply tested in Gaza, people must stand up for human rights
• Advocate not for peace but for dignity, justice, freedom, and human rights for all: peace will follow when these conditions are cultivated 

Naomi shares her family history and the experiences of relocating after the Nakba. Naomi also shares:

• As a poet, every voice is important in the world, every voice represents humanity. 
• Regarding Gaza, this is an overwhelming tragedy of sorrow
• The importance of actions based on one's convictions
• The power of the military industry complex to overide the voice of the majority and humanity's collective voice
• How can we be heard, how can we be listened to?
• Who is listening?

The idea, our obligation is to our humanity, looking within our selves we recognize our humanity

Dr Abuelaish shares his experiences as an author. 

The priority of Palestinians toward education.

Human Rights, respect and dignity for all. 

What is our modern sense of responsibility and obligation toward our fellow humans, what is our modern sense of meaning, mission, and purpose.

A human being is a human being [only] through another person.

Truth telling as means of healing.  

The situation is Gaza and West Bank harms Israel deeply as well. 

Naomi shares Hibu Abu Nabab's poem, Not Just Passing.

The political power and politics contrbuting to the crisis in Gaza and the West Bank.

Dr. Abuelaish reviews the history of Gaza since 2000.

And, Naomi closes with her poem, For Gaza

The children are still singing

They need & want to sing

They are carrying cats to safe places

Holding what they can hold

Red hair brown hair yellow

They will wear the sweater

Someone threw away

They will hope for something tasty

You won't be able to own them

Their spirits fly to safer worlds

They planted seashells in the sand

They never committed a crime

A president pardons turkeys

He pardons his own son

He doesn't pardon children

The children are still singing.

Naomi Shihab Nye was born in St. Louis, Missouri. Her father was a Palestinian refugee and her mother an American of German and Swiss descent, and Nye spent her adolescence in both Jerusalem and San Antonio, Texas. She earned her BA from Trinity University in San Antonio. Nye is the recipient of numerous honors and awards for her work, including the Ivan Sandrof Award for Lifetime Achievement from the National Book Critics Circle, the Lavan Award, the Paterson Poetry Prize, the Carity Randall Prize, the Isabella Gardner Poetry Award, the Lee Bennett Hopkins Poetry award, the Robert Creeley Prize, and many Pushcart Prizes. She has received fellowships from the Lannan Foundation, the Guggenheim Foundation, and she was a Witter Bynner Fellow. From 2010 to 2015 she served as a Chancellor of the Academy of American Poets. In 2018 she was awarded the Lon Tinkle Award for Lifetime Achievement from the Texas Institute of Letters. Nye was the Poetry Foundation's Young People's Poet Laureate from 2019-2022.

Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish, MD, MPH, is a Palestinian medical doctor who was born and raised in Jabalia Refugee Camp in the Gaza Strip. He is a passionate and eloquent proponent of peace between Palestinians and Israelis and has dedicated his life to using health as a vehicle for peace. He has succeeded despite all odds through a great determination of spirit, a strong faith, and a stalwart belief in hope and family. He has received a number of awards and nominations in recognition of his promotion of peace through health, and has been given seven honorary degrees. He has been nominated three years consecutively for the Nobel Peace Prize, and support for his candidacy keeps growing exponentially every year. He is the recipient of the Stavros Niarchos Prize for Survivorship, and was also nominated for the Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought. Since 2010 Dr. Abuelaish has also been named one of the 500 Most Influential Muslims by the Royal Islamic Strategic Studies Centre in Amman, Jordan for three consecutive years, and was the first ever recipient of the Mahatma Gandhi Peace Prize. Dr. Abuelaish’s book, I Shall Not Hate: A Gaza Doctor’s Journey, an autobiography inspired by the loss of his three daughters Bessan, Mayar, and Aya and his niece Noor to Israeli shelling on January 16, 2009, has achieved critical acclaim. Published in 2010, it has become an international best-seller and has been translated into 23 languages. The book has become a testament to his commitment to forgiveness as the solution to conflict, and the catalyst towards peace.

Naomi Shihab Nye's poem Current Affairs

I don't want to be

one of those modern people

who reads about Gazans

being crushed wholesale

entire blocks

extended families

invisible kitchens

then continues scrolling.

We will not delete you.

We would give you

anything we have.

Your pain is not money.

Feel us from a far place.

Howling in darkness.

What are you supposed to?

No one should have to bear.

I love you so much I can smell

the garlic in your shirt,

the dirt on your shoes,

the smoke in your air.

• 'What makes us come alive?'
• 'What is your 'note' in life?' (Rumi's 'be your note.')

Discussion turns to Rumi's quote 'when I was young I wanted to change the world, when I grew older I wanted only to change myself.'

How do we attune to spiritual teachers? 

How do we know who our spiritual teachers are meant to be?

Moments that open and we lose sense of time, time falls away:

• Activity 
• When meeting new people, old karmic connections? 
• In our Dharma, our work
• Henry's discussions, Sohbet, mystical discussions on mystical subjects, with his teacher.
• How do we find what makes us home in the world?
• How do we cultivate spiritual discernment in Life?
• The World as ourself
• Is there preparation to receive 'flow' states?

The Panel also explores:

• Where does the spiritual path begin? 
• What are the implications of having a guide or spiritual teacher?
• Teachers seeing into their students
• Tears as an indicator of one's spiritual path
• Sufism as a path of 'heart'
• Karma of helping others as way of being helped

The importance of 'others before self.'

We end with two poems from Ikkyu:

Raincoat and Straw Hat

Woodcutters and fishermen know just how to use things. What would they do with fancy chairs and meditation platforms? In straw sandals and with a bamboo staff, I roam three thousand worlds, Dwelling by the water, feasting on the wind, year after year.

I Hate The Smell of Incense A master's handiwork cannot be measured But still priests wag their tongues explaining the 'Way' and babbling about 'Zen.' This old monk has never cared for false piety And my nose wrinkles at the dark smell of incense before the Buddha.

The poet Major Ragain is quoted, 'contemplation alters the course of rivers.'

From the Bhagavad Gita:

• Freedom from action is not accomplished by abstaining from action, so how is it accomplished?
• Relinquishing the fruit of action 

Ghandi's, 'through service, I find myself.'

The Panel begins to examine the Taoist concept of non-action, Wu Wei.

How do we cultivate Wu Wei?

The Panel explores Univerisal Truths.

• Natural action arises, we have a deep intrinsic calling, how do we find and express it?
• What is our reason for being here?
• To receive the Divine Will is a part of choiceless action.

Biographies of Panel:

Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church.

Brian Mistler is a Missouri-hillbilly curious about Reality. He has lived as a computer scientist, psychologist, running and growing  businesses, and helping entrepreneurs, hospitals, and healthcare providers. Mid-life Brian had a partially debilitating nerve injury and soon after met a true Vedanta teacher who spent 30+ years in India and trained under Swami Chimayananda, Sawmi Dayananda, and others. This refocused his study of the classic non-dual wisdom as presented in the Bhagavad Gita and Upanishads. Learn more at http://www.stillcenter.media. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. 

Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.   Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester in Rochester, NY.  His professional career spanned over 40 years as a general and child and adolescent psychiatrist and included teaching, administration, clinical practice and consultation in the greater Rochester and western NY areas.  This, along with his spiritual and especially mystical interests lead him to certification as a mind body practitioner through the Center for Mind Body Medicine and Dr. James Gordon.  He retired several years ago from active psychiatric practice, but continues to incorporate what he has learned into his spiritual practices and offerings.

Does God Exist? How does meditation reveal God? What is the nature of evil? Where does God exist? Can we experience God directly? Why are we here on earth? What is the purpose of life? Why does God ask us to struggle? Does morality matter? Is there life after death? What is a koan?

Next Steps Forward is a podcast hosted by Chris Meek, the Mission Statement of the podcast:

Personal empowerment, commitment to our own well-being and the motivation to achieve more than we ever thought possible are the ingredients of a better life. And, they’re all within our reach. Next Steps Forward with Chris Meek delves into each aspect of the three keys that add energy, excitement, direction and purpose to everything that we do. Each week, Chris hosts leaders from the worlds of business, sports, entertainment, medicine, politics and public policy as they engage in thought-provoking discussions to help us all take the next step forward on our own journeys to our better selves and greater service to others.

Biography

Co-founder, Chairman, and CEO of SoldierStrong, Chris Meek has been recognized for his philanthropy with the President’s Call to Service Award, March of Dimes Franklin Delano Roosevelt Outstanding Corporate Citizen Award, Syracuse University’s Orange Circle Award, the ACT-IAC “Game Changer” Award, and was named a “Face of Philanthropy” by the Chronicle of Philanthropy. He discusses resiliency, empowerment, and leadership through adversity on his weekly podcast, “Next Steps Forward with Chris Meek,” via VoiceAmerica network’s Empowerment Channel. Next Steps Forward is his first book.

Joel David Lesses founded the Education Training Center as a means of counseling those marginalized by trauma, addiction and psychological distress, and its effects including incarceration, homelessness and institutionalization. He is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker. Joel has lived in Nepal and Israel and is also a poet expressing the landscape of the mystical elements of our human beings. He believes world religion, poetry, spirituality, and meditation encompass the most vital aspects of our mind and life. The crux of his own personal journey are the questions and answers to his own koan or inquiry: “what is the matter with me?” revealing the individual and universal aspects of our inherent and potent creativity. Everything is flux, everything is poetry. His other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science, and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, with the transformative power of self-inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices. Joel holds the belief that the fundamental transformation of individuals and our collective comes through barreling inward, relentlessly asking the questions, “Who am I?” or “What am I” or “What is the matter with me?” The latter being a question which after years of examination, shattered a false sense of self, the work of integration of that experience being an ongoing work in progress.

Bio of Lisa Carley

Hosting the podcast, 'The Labyrinth,' Lisa Carley is passionate about India, existential and phenomenological philosophy/psychology, and maternal mental health. She chooses to explore her passion through travel, connection with others, and writing. She holds a degree in English Literature from SUNY Albany, and has worked toward a Psy. D. in Clinical Psychology with a Masters in Existential Humanistic Psychology from Saybrook, is a mother, student of Philosophy and English, artisan, and poet.

Mystics teach that the heart and mind open through suffering.  

The good news is that we don’t have to look for upsets, they find us quite easily.

Join Henry Cretella and Lisa Carley as we discuss her journey through mental illness and how it led to her personal heart-mind opening and impacted her life for the better.  

It’s a journey of courage to explore and change, using all the tools that are available to understand and ease the pain while never closing the door that has been unlocked.  

Host of her podcast, 'The Labyrinth,' Lisa Carley is passionate about India, existential and phenomenological philosophy/psychology, and maternal mental health. She chooses to explore her passion through travel, connection with others, and writing. She holds a degree in English Literature from SUNY Albany, and has worked toward a Psy. D. in Clinical Psychology with a Masters in Existential Humanistic Psychology from Saybrook, is a mother, student of Philosophy and English, artisan, and poet.

These two old friends share a deep vision of hope and work toward a brighter future as they deconstruct meaning, mission, and purpose, and the mechanisms of what comprises the most vital aspects of life and relationship. In this brief discussion, Lisa and Joel outline the parallel journey of spirituality and curiosity that forms the basis of their timeless bond.

The answer, 'service.'

Also, surfing and meditation and the story of Reb Zusha, a Hasidic Master.

A Jewish Kabbalistic look at death, judgment, and Heavenly Decrees, ultimately who judges us?

Does human life have spiritual veils and what do they hide?

Also discussed is American Zen Buddhism and the two most influential books in American Zen, 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' and 'The Three Pillars of Zen.'

From Zen Mind, Beginner Mind, 'The basic teaching of Buddhism is the teaching of transcency or change.' and 'That everything changes is the basic truth for each existence.'

What actually determines the quality of our life: is it what we receive from others, or what we give to others? 

What is our relationship to Death?

What are we forced to let go of in life and what returns to us in the future? 

These explorations build into a final poem Lisa wrote and reads.

The talk continues in the examination of life asking 'What is being asked of me? What do I need to learn about this situation? What do I need to perceive in this situation?'

Also, asking questions of life, and responding to life's obstacles in a way that challenges our mental health and our existential paradigm, and the relationship to reconstructing ourselves, Phoenix-like, after allowing ourselves to 'fall apart.'

Deeper into the conversation, the topic of the Existential Abyssand Kierkegaard and Nietzsche and Heidegger, and looking at 'being true to [oneself] in the deepest possible sense.'

The talk opens to the complexities and wonders of being human.

Finally, existentially reassembling ourselves and its relationship to mental health and mental health distress.

This conversation meanders among these three old, dear friends, and touches on nihilism, dissolution and romanticism, Dharma decay andDharma renewal, changes and transformations.

Is there room for Hope in the world today?

Optimism?

Does the state of the world allow a falling away so that things might improve, a sense something better might come.

What does Enlightenment look like? What does Enlightenment feel like?

In this deeply intimate talk, Rich, Lisa, and Joel explore aspects of the existential path requiring courage and bravery, and the conversation deconstructs aspects of the work required to build a strong existence or spiritual foundation.

Lisa, Rich, and Joel examine challenging and evolving social constructs, darkness versus light, mission and meaning and purpose, how do we find mission meaning and purpose?

Asking 'how' versus asking 'why?'

Fundamentally, what makes us feel we are far from where we should be, what makes us feel we are far from 'home.'

Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross-cultural themes in religion and science— including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history- philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator-polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council.

Lisa Carley is passionate about India, existential and phenomenological philosophy/psychology and maternal mental health. She chooses to explore her passion through travel, connection with others, and writing. She holds a degree in English Literature from SUNY Albany, has worked toward a Psy. D. in Clinical Psychology with a Masters in Existential Humanistic Psychology from Saybrook, is a mother, student of Philosophy and English, artisan, and poet.

 Biography of Joy Harjo:

Joy Har­jo, the 23rd Poet Lau­re­ate of the Unit­ed States, is a mem­ber of the Mvskoke Nation and belongs to Oce Vpofv (Hick­o­ry Ground). As a poet, activist, and musician, Joy Harjo’s work has won countless awards. In 2019, Harjo became the first Native American United States Poet Laureate in history and is only the second poet to be appointed for three terms. In addition to her many books of poetry, she has written several books for young audiences and released seven award-winning music albums.

Harjo is a founding board member and Chair of the Native Arts and Cultures Foundation and, in 2019, was elected a Chancellor of the Academy of American Poets. She has since been inducted into the National Women’s Hall of Fame, National Native American Hall of Fame, the American Philosophical Society, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the American Academy of Arts and Letters.

Harjo currently lives in Tulsa, Oklahoma where she serves as the first Artist-in-Residency of the Bob Dylan Center. 

The terrain covers the root response to suffering found in exploring spirituality. The question of 'work' and how work is defined was answered. Chris begins with his own expressed spiritual development and biography, culminating with a deep awakening in the Tenderloin district of San Francisco. The realization placed for Chris the understanding of the inequality of systems of power against many of its marginalized citizens, mainly due to the drive to consume and commoditize, an unexamined priorities, in our nation and world.

These power structures have sought to accumulate wealth and power, and in the talk Chris and Joel also explore the validities of all the world's religions. Chris came to realize G-d is not an idea but a living Reality. Through the talk, Chris and Joel discuss how these systems criminalize the poor. Also examined were ways to alleviate suffering, guided by various spiritual doctrines, and searching 'where does G-d fit into all of this?' The differences of science and religion, and how the ancient cultures made no distinction between the two.

A profound examination of humankind's direction, hope, and potential outcome.

Biography of Chris Barbera:

Chris Barbera has lived in the backs of empty churches and intentional communities and worked on various social justice movements and has, for many years, administered an educational nonprofit, Jesus the Liberator Seminary of Religious Justice, which focuses upon developing a “Prison  Theology” with people incarcerated. He currently lives intentionally at the interfaith nonprofit, Network of Religious Communities. In short, he has lived and worked with poor people at the intersection of grassroots justice movements, spiritually lived ideas and experiences in relation with institutional structures, traditions, and nonprofit efforts, as well as at the intersection of poetry and theology. All is all in all rooted and wind.

Bio: Richard Wicka is a Buffalo, N.Y.-based media artist and photographer and the proprietor of "The Home of the Future,"a media access center and production/recording studio based in his Kaisertown home. Wicka has been providing a forum for artists in all media, activists, and everyday citizens of his Western New York community since the mid-1970s. He provides interested parties with technical support, studio time, and production tools free of charge, encouraging them to express themselves in ways that mainstream culture has not historically sanctioned.  With the advent of internet radio came ThinkTwice Radio in 2006, offering podcasts to anyone with a subject to discuss and the commitment to produce a regular show.

Henry and Joel discuss lessons from lived experience with mental health distress, including: • lessons from trauma • isolation, loneliness • marginalization • existential crisis • how mental health distress may be a calling to become a healer leader and teacher in community.

Extracting lessons and asking the 'why' slowly begins to uncover answers, reveals meaning and purpose, calls us to understanding and wisdom of life's deeper questions.

There, passions reveal themselves, including for Joel poetry, spirituality and mysticism.

Education Training Center (https://www.joellesses.com), Joel's agency seeks to address areas of need for individuals marginalized by mental health, trauma, and psychological distress without distinction to cause.

Joel Lesses founded the Education Training Center as a means of counseling people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress, and its effects including incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. He is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. Also, vested in Poetry and Literature as an educator and poet, through writing workshops, poetry roundtables, poetry, and a manuscript. Finally, other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science, and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, and transformative power of self inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices explored in his podcast, 'Unraveling Religion' mystical and practical discussions as an exploration of spirituality and its relation to religion and psychology. Joel was nominated and voted previously 'Buffalo's Best Poet'; he has been published in various magazines and publications, founded Ground and Sky Poetry Series, and facilitated numerous poetry workshops. Currently, he is working on an autobiography of poetry and prose entitled 'Odyssey of Autumn's Breath: An American Collection and Life.' He has worked as a healthcare administrator, trainer, facilitator, and consultant, leading the understanding in education treatment and advocacy regarding substance use, mental health, (and medical) issues.

Why is there such reluctance to allow people to be who they are? Are we so afraid of “not-me” so that differences become pathologized, forbidden, and beyond our limited imaginations? What does this do to us when we feel we must hide to survive? What does it mean that others must be feared?

We are in a time when something as basic, genetic, as the core of our being has been, and still is denied, and then may be used as a justification to unleash rejection, division, devaluation, bullying, and violence. It is difficult and painful for some of us to believe. Yet, some, perhaps even many of us, have lived through this….witnessed it directly or indirectly. And some of us may have even perpetrated some of the prejudice, unwittingly or not.

Psychiatrist, friend, and colleague John Erhart has lived through and witnessed personal and professional traumas and victories in his pursuit of being, accepting, living, and celebrating the person who he is. It is easier now, but….What about the road ahead for others? The work is not done.

John F. Erhart, M.D. After completing undergraduate studies at the Rochester Institute of Technology, Dr. Erhart received his doctorate in medicine at Temple University in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He completed post-graduate medical training at the University Of Rochester Strong Memorial Hospital. After an internship in pediatrics, internal medicine and neurology, Dr. Erhart completed a psychiatric residency and child psychiatry fellowship through the university’s Department of Psychiatry. He is a consultant for various agencies in the Rochester/Finger Lakes area.

Neurodivergence—also known as autistic spectrum—is now more frequently recognized, especially vis-à-vis neurotypicality. The latter is often viewed as the expected pattern, and those of that ilk wield much power in our society. Hafizullah views himself as neurodivergent and Henry as neurotypical. Henry agrees. Surprisingly or not, they have found interesting intersections, similarities, differences, and overlaps. Join these two friends and colleagues as they explore what these labels might really mean, not only abstractly and theoretically, but also on a personal and relationship level. Journey with them as they delve into the psychological and social ramifications their neurodivergence and neurotypicality have led them to experience and witness in their own lives, in their relationships, on their spiritual paths, and in organizations. What has helped them maneuver? What has hurt them? What can we learn and use to move us forward in being truly more inclusive and respectful of our gifts?  Hafizullah Chisti is a murshid in the Sufi lineage of Hazrat Inayat Khan and got his start on “self-work” through Gestalt Therapy and deep bodywork—leading him, in-turn, to some years of Buddhist practice, and then to the “embodied” path of the Sufis.

Hafizullah has a special interest in the interface between psychology and spiritual practice, and is currently enrolled in a three-year trauma-therapist training program in the Somatic Experiencing™ approach. He has also been challenged and gifted in life and on the spiritual path by his own neurodivergence, and is developing guidance for neurodivergent spiritual seekers and their neurotypical guides. 

Aude Chesnais, Ph.D., has encountered various spiritual traditions before finding her family on the Sufi path since 2017. She is a political ecologist and senior researcher for the Native Lands Advocacy Project, and has been working closely with native communities in the USA for the past 10 years on issues of land sovereignty and Traditional Ecological Knowledge, particularly in support of regenerative food-systems transitions. Aude’s work reflects strongly on her positionality as a white researcher working in Indigenous settings. Although her spiritual path has led her on the quest to understand oneness, Aude’s professional path and commitment to social justice constantly reminds her of the real social impacts of human distinctions on their lives. Reconciling these two coexisting realities is Aude’s lifetime quest. Aude received her MA in social and solidarity economics from Université de Haute-Alsace, France and her Ph.D. in sociology from Colorado State University, CO, USA.

Henry Cretella, M.D., is the host of Alchemical Dialogues and co-director of Amber Light International. He is a retired psychiatrist who received his medical degree from Vanderbilt University and his post-graduate training at the University of Rochester’s Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester, NY. Henry was raised Roman Catholic and later began initial studies in Shamanism and Tibetan Buddhism, as well as in the martial arts before finding a home in the Sufi lineage of Inayat Khan. Henry no longer practices an exoteric religion, but teaches and guides others in a mystically oriented spirituality that incorporates the wisdom from many traditions and disciplines. For Henry, he believes that we are in an era calling for each of us to find and follow our own unique spiritual path. He also believes that we can connect with others and a power greater than ourselves, in order to further a positive expansion and evolution of human consciousness.

Tania Day-Magallon is an artist born in Mexico City and has collaborated in various art events and exhibits in Chicago, Mexico City, and Rochester, NY. She identifies as Muslim and is a Sufi practitioner. Tania started her art education at a young age, and she attended prominent art institutions in Mexico City. Tania’s art frequently uses symbolism and imagery emphasizing her own cultural identity and spiritual views. Tania became a member of the group formerly known as Women of Color in the Arts (WOC-Art) collaborative, where she curated an art activity and installation titled “Hands of Sorority”. Tania was also commissioned to design the cover of an issue for the academic journal Frontiers: A Journal of Women Studies entitled Deterritorializing Frontiers. Tania earned her BA in Visual Arts from SUNY Empire State College, where she continued her studies in visual arts and psychology. She is currently earning her MS in Mental Health Counseling at SUNY Brockport. Tania believes that mental health, spirituality, and the arts are interwoven, and her current work is focused on exploring her roots, the Divine Feminine, and decolonial mental health approaches that include the creative process as a fundamental aspect of human wellbeing.

Joel David Lesses, who has lived in Nepal and Israel, is a poet expressing the landscape of our existence and capturing the mystical elements of our human being. He believes world religion, poetry, spirituality, and meditation encompass the makeup of our mind and life. The crux of his own journey is the manifestation of questions and answers to his own koan “What is the matter with me?” For Joel, this reveals the individual and universal aspects of our inherent and potent creativity. Everything is flux. Everything is poetry. His other passions include the intersection of poetry, spirituality, science, and phenomenology shared and disparate in the human experience, along with the transformative power of self-inquiry and introspection through contemplative and meditative practices. Joel holds the belief that the fundamental transformation of individuals and our collective comes through barreling inward, relentlessly asking the questions, "Who am I?" or "What am I" or "What is the matter with me?" The latter, for Joel personally, shattered a false sense of self. Joel was previously voted ‘Buffalo’s Best Poet’, founded WNY’s ‘Ground and Sky Poetry Series’, and created the podcast Unraveling Religion, which explores world mysticism and spirituality. His autobiography, Odyssey of Autumn’s Breath, is in-progress, and combines much of his life’s poetry with prose.

Margot VanEtten has a wide and varied background in spirituality and meditation, interfaith study and dialogue, martial arts, and ministerial practice including as a lay minister in the Catholic Church for many years. She holds a Master’s degree in Sacred Theology from St. Bernard’s Institute in Rochester, NY. From 2000 to 2019, Margot was the campus minister and director at the Brockport Newman Center where she was involved in ecumenical and interfaith work with the local ministers, student organizations including the Muslim Student Association and Campus Ambassadors, Interfaith campus ministry organizations across the Rochester area, and with the Diocese of Rochester’s Catholic/Orthodox Commission exploring relations with Eastern Orthodox churches.

After retiring, Margot began working as a pastoral minister for St. Monica’s Church and Emmanuel Church of the Deaf where she became the first woman who was not a nun to be named Pastoral Associate in the Diocese of Rochester. Prior, she was a sign language interpreter and liaison to the chaplain’s office at the Rochester Institute of Technology. This fits neatly into her early background: Margot grew up in a town on Long Island (Great Neck), which at the time, had a rather diverse religious and cultural population, and it was there that she grew to deeply appreciate the Jewish tradition, as well as her own Christian faith.